High value, high efficiency speakers for SET amps

Is that why there is no Atmasphere SET amp?

otl all the way I suppose.

Atmasphere wrote:

Sorry to pop some bubbles here:

The problem you are up against is that with almost any SET, if you really want to hear what the amp really does (the magic) you really **don't** want to push it past about 20% of its full output. If you do, the higher ordered harmonics come into play and there is an interesting interaction that occurs with the human physiology when that happens.

This is very interesting, Atmasphere. Is this true for SEP as well? True for a Dynamo 34SE?
That was an insightful observation.
Thank you!

In recent years, since starting my focus on revamping my setup back around 2008, I've found Enjoy The Music to be the best and most reliable resources available to me for finding high value excellent performing products that one might not be aware of otherwise. I have a high degree of trust in what they say about recommended products.

Sorry about that, accidentally hit the submit button. To Continue:

$1,200 Coincident Dynamo 34SE amp
$1,000 Tekton Reference Speakers
$500 Schitt DAC
$1,000 CD Player

The rest in cables, speaker, interconnect, a little over $5,000. 90% there.

And Rebbi, I bet your system with the AN Kit-1, Tekton Lore 2.0 with upgraded Mundorf silver cap, your turntable or a decent inexpensive Cd/transport with say, something like a used MiniMax DAC, good power cable, speaker, digital, interconnect would elevate the above mentioned stuff.

Charles,
Tone, harmonics, presence, "if ain't got that, it ain't got nothin'!

This year I plan to get to a number of shows. The last one I went to was AXPONA in Jacksonville, FL with my wife, that was a couple of years ago; and you are absolutely right, many rooms can't get the "essentials" right.

There is no shame in getting 90% there. That you can do so with a modest system cost is mind-blowing. In the Enjoy the Music review they put together a total $5,000 buck system including all wiring and DAC, amp, speakers. It included:

Rob, thanks for the comment about "refinement." I was wondering about that, too.

Barney Bigard's clarinet, yes, Rob I know just what you mean. I think you and I listen and hear music in a very similar fashion. I know those recordings well, both CDs and records. The Tekton is indeed a very good speaker if it gets the tone, harmonics and presence right as you've described.

Rob you'd be surprised how many big name expensive speakers I've heard at CES/RMAF can't get those essentials right. This is exactly why there's no substitute for listening yourself. The quest for that ultra detailed sound ruins natural sound reproduction I've come to recognize.

Sebrof,
I agree with your comment that the Lore plays nice and full at low volume.
The M-Lore does as well. And by-the-way, I think the Tekton is a refined
speaker, the De Capo doesn't beat it in this regard either, just different.

04-23-15: Rebbi
Sebrof,
Have you found similarities between the Katz and the Lore, since you've owned both?

In ways the Lore sounded like bigger Katz, the Katz more delicate. The Lores more bass, more punch and drive. The Katz did that holographic floating music SET thing a little better. I liked both, in fact my for sale ad was for either Lore or Katz, I said I'm selling only one whichever sells first.

04-23-15: Rebbi
Mikirob,
Thanks.
One more question: How do they fare at lower volumes? Some speakers need to be played loud to "wake up," so to speak. How are the Lores in this regard?

I'll answer - I found them to play nice and full at low volumes. Actually that was/is something that is important to me, and something I think SET amps do well.

Rebbi,
The Tektons play very well at low volume. In my listening room, 14x16, I generally have the volume near 9 o'clock. At 10’clock it starts to really rock the room. When at 8’o'clock it is quiet. Yet very clear and still dynamic. Remember, this is with my 8 watt Coincident Dynamo 34SE, EL34.

You should read all the reviews. I especially liked the Tim Smith (6 Moons) and Enjoy the Music reviews since they both used the Tektons with the Coincident Dynamo SE. The reviews were thorough and honest evaluations. They match my listening observations. The Stereomojo review garnered their award. So too, Enjoy the Music. Positive-feedback also matches my listening experience.

Mikirob,
Thanks.
One more question: How do they fare at lower volumes? Some speakers need to be played loud to "wake up," so to speak. How are the Lores in this regard?

Rebbi,
I like the De Capo a lot; but I like both Tektons much better. First, the bass is really, really good. Remember, I am a bass player. The Tekton is easy to drive, benevolent 8 ohm impedance, 95db, 98db efficiency, 38hz or 30hz bass. They throw a huge stage, in my room usually wall-to-wall if the recording has it, deep and nicely layered. The height is normally close to life-like. Female vocals like Ella check. One of my go-to Jazz CDs is: Louia Armstrong/Duke Ellington, The Great Summit/Complete Sessions/Delux Edition. You want to talk "truth of timbre", harmonic rightness, natural organic sound this CD will show it in spades, full, rich, just glorious! I feel like I'm in a small club and Sach, Duke, everybody is there in all their life-sized reach out and touch them. Louis' trumpet, the Duke's piano, Trummy Young's trombone doesn't get much better, Barney Bigard on clarinet is so live I had to invite my niece over to play hers to compare. If only she had Barney's talent...Danny Barcelona on drums, cymbals and brushes so perfect, and last, but not least, Mort Herbert playing a five foot tall bass that nailed strings slapping with buzz and body, the notes just floated so naturally, nice decays. This is not hyperbole.

On a classical recording such as Bartok Concerto for Orchestra, Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta, Hungarian Sketches (Fritz Reiner, CSO) on RCA Living Stereo, the dynamics are phenomenal. This is truly a great recording to test your speakers. That big U of orchestra is there and it is easy to pick out all the instruments in their rightful spots.

I have no connection to Tekton. I have enjoyed quality sound both live and recorded since childhood on some of the best audio stuff ever produced. For $1,500 bucks you can get 90% there. As alway YMMV.

Sebrof,
Will do... I just need for things to slow down at work so I can escape the office. ;-)
Have you found similarities between the Katz and the Lore, since you've owned both?

Rebbi, come and try my Katz already!

Rob,
When I spoke with Eric Alexander and asked him about my choices and about the De Capo, which he said he was quite familiar with (but did not try to trash, which I respected) he basically said something along the lines of, "The Lore would be an entirely different experience, rough if the music is rough, loud if the music is loud, dynamic like a live performance…"
As Charles said, I really value the fact that you have had the opportunity to hear these two speakers side-by-side. And I think that I probably am suffering somewhat under the "how good can it be for that kind of money" syndrome. But not enough to prevent me from giving it a try if it looks like the best option! I am interested, by the way, in your comment that "in every other parameter [besides bass] the Tekton was as good or better than the De Capo." That's kind of what I was wondering about. You have to understand that I am so consistently thrilled with what I am hearing with the Kit 1 and the De Capo that I'm almost afraid to mess with success.

" I believe Tekton's relatively low cost works against it for some people(it's too good to be true mindset)."

Probably true for some. You can never please everyone, even by offering a tremendous value. But value is value and always a good thing so people can recognize it or not but that does not change it. Word of mouth can be a powerful driving force and value is often the thing that fuels that best. No doubt direct sales over the internet helps cut out the middleman and enables values that are hard to achieve otherwise these days. Few things I see in traditional B&M shops these days are the best values out there. They operate as much on brand name recognition as anything else.

Rob,
You make a compelling case forTekton. Y ou have actually listen to it and the De Capo in direct comparison. It has accumulated a growing body of diverse reviewers who reached similar conclusions about its sound quality. Rebbi wonders if the Tekton lacks the De Capo's refinement. Yours and reviewers impressions would seem to suggest they do not. At the very least it appears to be a serious contender.
Rob I agree with the idea to upgrade crossover parts when ever possible. Better quality capacitors do make a noticeable improvement. Ironically I believe Tekton's relatively low cost works against it for some people(it's too good to be true mindset).
Charles,

Last comment: you could also have Eric Alexander put in a Mundorf silver cap, it's inexpensive, raises the bar even more.

Rebbi,
I'll sit here and laugh my evil laugh joyously listening to my various Tekton speakers (M-Lore/Lore $650 and $1,000 respectively).

I did refer you to that Tim Smith Wall of Sound review previously, more than once in your previous threads. I also alerted you to a number of other Tekton reviews from the likes of Enjoy the Music, Part-Time Audiophile, Positive-Feedback as well as some others. Every review comes to the same conclusion: Tekton speakers are excellent top to bottom and checks all the audiophile boxes.

For $1,500 bucks you cannot do better. My De Capo vs Tekton-Lore shoot-out was no contest in the bass, Tekton clear winner! On every other parameter the Tekton was as good or better. Tim Smith liked the M-Lore better than his Harbeth 7s amongst others. The Lore is even better.

If you got $2,100 for the De Capo I'd get the Lore 2.0 for $900 (8 ohm, 98db, 30hz) with the money left over get a good power cord and interconnects. It will kill the De Capo.

Veroman,
Thank you.
I have been on the Audio Nirvana web site and I had a couple of phone conversations with David Dicks, the owner, back when I was considering how to get into SET amps. He has a house-designed, Chinese made 300B amp that goes for something like $1550, delivered (which I'm dying for somebody on Audiogon to buy just so I can find out what it's like at that price)!
Now that I've built a couple of electronics kits, the thought of trying a DIY speaker has definitely occurred to me. In fact, if the ANK Audio Note speaker kits weren't so darn pricey, I'd try one of those.
If I came into a little spare cash, I might very well build a speaker from the Commonsense web site, since the total cost is very reasonable. Exactly which drivers are you using? And did you have someone build the cabs or did you do that yourself? I don't have any woodworking expertise, nor any of the required tools (saws, clamps and so on) so I'd have to factor that in to the cost, as well.

Check out common sense audio. they offer their own line of full range drivers (audio nirvana) with many options along with lowther drivers. I listen to a pair of 12in full range drivers(audio nirvana) with a 3.5 wpc amp and they are gorgeous. They have a guy who builds cabinets as well. just a thought if you want to go that route. most designs are 96db rated.

My best advice is to always make sure the technical indicators (specs measurements and any other factual technical inforamtion taht might be had via reviews, articles, etc.) line up first. Those are the best FACTS one has to work with towards the goal of OPTIMAL PERFORMANCE.

Optimal Performance is always a good thing but alone not assurance of what will be perceived as good sound. For example an all tube system and an all SS system might both be top notch performers together on paper and as measured, but each will still have their own personal preference for whatever reason. PErsonal preferences are subjective judgements that has no assurance of translating to another whereas techical facts to the extent discernable to help assure optimal performance does.

its a good problem to have to choose through many good options. The bad news is they are all different. The good news is that there are many ways to tweak sound produced by a speaker and that they are all good options.

If the specs, measurements, and reviews all line up positively for the case at hand, then that is about all one can hope for in lieu of an actual audition.

No doubt a lot of critical listeners seem to like Tekton. Same can be said about many products. We all hear differnetly, so there is no assurance what sounds good to one will sound good to another. Its always a gamble to a certain extent but hopefully more of a highly educated guess that has a good chance of working out with due diligence.

For what it's worth, I hadn't seen this before, but this is Tim Smith's review of the Mini-Lore on the Canadian site Wall Of Sound. He's the same fellow who loved the Coincident Dynamo 34 SE amp.

Al,
Your point about the wide ranging standards regarding speaker bass specifications are
well founded. I will say though that the Tekton bass performance seems to be verified by numerous reviewers and many owners of these speakers. So perhaps their stated specs are "reasonably" reliable/accurate.
Charles,

Rebbi, thanks for the nice words and for the clarification about size and positioning. Regarding:

04-22-15: Rebbi
As for lower end extension, my old Merlin TSM-mmi's were only rated down to 55 Hz, and I found them so lacking in punch and dynamics that I sold them after a couple of years. The De Capo's, rated down to 42 Hz, taught me that I needed a speaker to have at least a decent taste of low-end punch or I'll get bored and the music loses its foundation. Some of the candidates, like the Lore 2.0, are rated to extend quite lower than the De Capo - down to 30 Hz in the case of the Lore 2.0, which should be very satisfying in my room.

I have no specific knowledge of the Lore, but a general word of caution about speaker bass extension specs: My perception has been, generally speaking, that those numbers stand a considerably greater chance of being both misleading and meaningless than sensitivity or efficiency numbers. For several reasons, including differences in the +/- db tolerances different manufacturers may use; differences in the distortion percentage the number may be based on; differences in the volume level the number may be based on (for a given distortion % and a given +/- tolerance bass extension can be expected to narrow at high volume levels); differences in the extent to which the specified bass extension takes room effects into account; and in cases where speaker impedance is significantly lower at low frequencies than at higher frequencies the possibility that the number may be based on the ability of solid state amplifiers to increase power delivery into lower impedances. And as you've no doubt seen it is common for bass extension to be specified without any of those things being indicated.

Good comments by Mapman just above, btw, some of which relate to these same points.

I note regarding the De Capo, btw, that although it is spec'd down to 42 Hz as you indicated, the measurements I linked to in my previous post show 3 db of rolloff at a bit above 60 Hz, and 6 db of rolloff at a bit above 50 Hz. And that is at a modest input level of 2.83 volts, roughly corresponding to 1 watt. In EE circles, btw, bandwidths are most commonly specified on the basis of 3 db of rolloff.

Best regards,
-- Al

I recall the Tekton owner guy indicating a preference for SS amps with his speakers. Don't recall why. Always check those impedance curves, especially at the low end to help determine just how much more of a challenge more bass extension might be.

One good strategy to help manage risk might be to only go with products that have been thoroughly and reliably measured by an independant source, like Stereophile.

My Dynaudio monitors go down into teh 40s as well and do bass and dynamics quite well in a smaller room. My smaller Triangles do not and bass and dynamics is where they first fall short, though with my current placement near the floor for re-inforcement with slight upward tilt on isolating stands, the bass levels are just right now in a slightly larger and livelier room.

You just never know until you try things sometimes.

"I would put it that deep bass extension, efficiency, and compactness of cabinet size trade off against one another in the design of a speaker. Sacrificing deep bass extension and/or making the cabinet larger (not smaller) will work in the direction of enabling the speaker to have greater efficiency."

That's a good way to put it.

Look into Clayton Shaw's new line Spatial Audio. I have a
pair as well as my DIY Audio Nirvana offerings. Don't listen
to the " if you gonna go SET you need a super duper
ultra hi high efficient speaker crowd" With a 300B (6-9
watts) you'll be fine with 95 db up. Unless you like to
listen to above 96 dbs and if that's the case you don't need
a SET amp anyway!I would go with some sort of point source
system though.BTW, Charlesdad and Almarg are offering good
advise.

Atmasphere:
Thanks a lot for the technical insights.

Charles:
Looking forward to hearing from you.

Almarg:
You always have so much to add to the conversation, thank you. Just to clarify, I do have some size flexibility here. I'm happy to move to a floor-stander and away from a stand-mount, which is why I'd look at Tekton Lore or one of the Omega floor-standers, which are rather boxy but not huge. My only real size limitation is that distance from the wall behind the speakers has its limits; I've only got about 1.5 to 2 feet to play with there.
As for lower end extension, my old Merlin TSM-mmi's were only rated down to 55 Hz, and I found them so lacking in punch and dynamics that I sold them after a couple of years. The De Capo's, rated down to 42 Hz, taught me that I needed a speaker to have at least a decent taste of low-end punch or I'll get bored and the music loses its foundation. Some of the candidates, like the Lore 2.0, are rated to extend quite lower than the De Capo - down to 30 Hz in the case of the Lore 2.0, which should be very satisfying in my room.

Jetrexpro,
Cooling it for awhile and saving up for AN speakers is also an option, certainly. I've only heard AN speakers at the California Audio Show but was extremely impressed with the demo at that time. Of course, Audio Note was fronting that system with multi-kilobuck AN electronics!

it might also turn out that there may be no need to look at other speakers since it may turn out that the Kit one/De Capo combo may be a long term satisfactory combo

If it were me, I would enjoy the De Capo speakers and save my $$ and in a few years take a look at Audio Note AN-e's. I did this. I waited until I could afford the E's. Before I got them I listened to them and am still in musical love four years later! Production model or the kit 3. The synergy with the Kit One amp would be excellent. Also looking at Coincident speakers would be a great option as well.

04-22-15: Mapman
Atmasphere,
I think you are assuming that the speaker is full or near full range with your numbers. Smaller speakers with less low end extension MUST require less power to achieve a certain level, all else the same. The lower the frequencies attempted, the more power is needed, all else held constant. I think that is basic physics. So I think my argument is sound that one way to coax more out of a few good watts is to defer on or even filter out the lowest frequencies if needed one way or another at some point. That allows your watts to go further.

I would put it that deep bass extension, efficiency, and compactness of cabinet size trade off against one another in the design of a speaker. Sacrificing deep bass extension and/or making the cabinet larger (not smaller) will work in the direction of enabling the speaker to have greater efficiency.

So I agree that in choosing a speaker having significantly greater efficiency than the De Capo, that also meets Rebbi's stated price point and size preferences, much or all of the bottom two octaves or so will probably have to be sacrificed.

However, the efficiency of a given speaker is what it is. (Although that is not to say that it is what the specs say it is :-)) And provided that the efficiency number is defined in a way that is representative of the speaker's performance across the range of frequencies it is capable of reproducing with reasonably flat frequency response, a speaker having an efficiency of 102 db/1W/1m, to use Ralph's example, will produce within that frequency range an SPL of 102 db (+/- frequency response variation) at a distance of 1 meter when provided with 1 watt (neglecting room effects), regardless of what the speaker's deep bass extension is.

Regarding filtering out the deep bass at a point upstream of the amplifier, yes, that of course would make a given number of watts go further, but of course implementing that filter without compromising the SET magic is another matter, especially at a modest price point.

On the other hand, though, how far the 2 watt figure Ralph mentioned will go in conjunction with a given speaker efficiency will of course vary considerably depending on the volume preferences, listening distance, and room size of the listener, and perhaps even more so on the dynamic range of the music that is being listened to. And it seems clear in this case that Rebbi is generally quite happy with the performance of his SET amplifier with the 86.7 db/2.83 volt/1 meter De Capos. My guess, therefore, is that a speaker which honestly gets into the mid-90's/1 watt/1 meter, while also not compromising anything about the De Capo's sonics which he finds appealing, would make for an excellent upgrade. I have no specific suggestions to offer, though, in the stated price range.

A probably unnecessary reminder, also, that efficiency and intrinsic sonic quality are not all that have to be considered. Ideally impedance should be high, and should not dip down to low values at any frequency, and should not have severely capacitive phase angles (especially in the lower part of the spectrum where lots of energy is typically required, and especially at frequencies coinciding with impedance minima). And the less variation of impedance as a function of frequency the better. Speakers not meeting those criteria would not only entail increased risk of unsatisfactory results, but would tend to give results that are not even consistent among different SETs, due to differences in impedance interactions.

Just my $0.02. Best regards,
-- Al

Rebbi,
I will email you regarding my personal experience with 300b SET, OTL and speakers with sensitivities of 92-95 db. Believe me you have a fine amp with many good options. Trust me.
Charles,

These are the speakers I was referring too.
http://omegaloudspeakers.com/omegaoutlaw7-1.5.html

Atmasphere,

I think you are assuming that the speaker is full or near full range with your numbers.

Smaller speakers with less low end extension MUST require less power to achieve a certain level, all else the same.

The lower the frequencies attempted, the more power is needed, all else held constant. I think that is basic physics.

So I think my argument is sound that one way to coax more out of a few good watts is to defer on or even filter out the lowest frequencies if needed one way or another at some point. That allows your watts to go further.

The sacrifice is the lowest octave or so to some extent but the fact is that may not matter much for most recordings, especially in a smaller room.

But you are correct that the only way to get flat response full range sound out of a few watts is very high efficiency speakers. I have only heard it achieved well with very expensive and very large horns, along the lines of Avantgarde or similar custom horns.

Well, I do have single driver Zigmahornets but also run Coincident Conquest & Mini Triumphs. The Eclipse is out of your budget.

The Classic Audio Loudspeakers have efficiencies that are what you want for a 300b SET (which only makes about 7 watts). The best suited in their line is the Hartsfield reproduction.

Sorry to pop some bubbles here:

The problem you are up against is that with almost any SET, if you really want to hear what the amp really does (the magic) you really **don't** want to push it past about 20% of its full output. If you do, the higher ordered harmonics come into play and there is an interesting interaction that occurs with the human physiology when that happens!

(The interaction is that the higher ordered harmonics will be showing up on transients, and the ear/brain system will interpret that as loudness. As you increase the volume, the loudness cues are thus initially only occurring on transients. Thus the amp will *seem* to be much more dynamic than it has any business being for its output power! This is a common comment about SETs- and one that indicates that the amp is not set up properly. The speaker used needs to be more efficient to avoid this problem. BTW, now that you have read this I may have ruined it for you: knowing that the dynamic quality is really caused by distortion makes it easier to hear the distortion itself.)

(A further note: about 90% of the time when audiophiles are talking about 'dynamics' they are really talking about distortion. The word is so heavily charged that if I really do mean dynamics I often use other words such as 'impact'.)

So with only 2 watts or so to really play with your speaker must be over 102 db or so- otherwise you simply are not hearing what the amp can really do. SETs have the property of distortion that becomes unmeasurable as power is decreased; this is the source of their 'inner detail magic'.

The bottom line is if you have a 300b SET, unless your room is very small you will need a horn system of some sort; single driver speakers like the Zu or Lowther simply lack the efficiency in an average room.

REb, I would take advantage of going back and spending some time with Sebrof's or any other SET based system you might have access to that can serve as a reference. Hearing and recognizing a reference standard is really the only way to know what is possible or what one might be missing. In teh end, on a budget, with a SET, I think it will mostly boil down to how much low end extension is needed. That's often the case but even more so when watts are few and precious.

Low Risk Klipsch

What would be lost with trying these?

This is one I have on my short list of hieff speakers I would pursue if/when the time comes. its hard to argue against these based on anything but personal taste. I've heard these in Best Buy running off modest a/v receivers and had only positive impressions. A big surprise for me given you would not hear about a common product like this much in these parts.

8" woofer and high efficiency sounds like a good combo for a SET. having heard many speakers both old and new over the years, I've long thought 8" woofers to perhaps be the optimal size for best affordable bass in many cases.

Reb,

I understand where you are coming from in terms of sorting through the options.

The thing is there are so many good products out there but usually only a few that work best best in each unique case.

Specs, measurements and lots of end user reviews from others with similar needs are ones best friend usually to help sort through it all.

My take on Wavetouch is that they are small for the price but seemingly well made and with a different take on directionality and fighting room acoustics. Bass not too extended and moderate efficiency as I recall so a reasonable match for a SET I would say. I have corresponded with at least one Agoner who bought a pair and had nothing but good things to say about them.

I am a fan of Zu speakers. In part because of the interactions that I have had with everyone from the company, because they offer in-home trial periods, and because they stand behind their products. They also sometimes have refurbished speakers available. At the very least, you should call them. Another option would be an Audio Note kit.

"So I can't figure out how to sort through their offerings.
"

The same way one sorts through the wide range of offerings available on the market as a whole. I look for specs and measurements that meet my needs and a lot of positive reviews. There is more end user information available for products like these sold on Amazon and other sources not known as "high end" per se than for more esoteric products that get more focus here.

Open markets are our friends. You just have to focus on sorting therough the noise and focusing on the facts ie specs and a variety of personal experiences from pure music lovers, if not also audiophiles per-se.

Dan,
Thanks for the Tannoy information. I believe that Brian Smith of Audio Note Kits really likes Tannoy and I think he told me at one point that a number of his customers run the ANK SET offerings with Tannoy's, too. I've never spent any quality time with a Tannoy speaker but will try to do so.

Mapman,
I believe that Roxy54 runs his Kit 1 C-Core (the ultra-upgraded model) with Klipsch speakers. What confuses me about Klipsch is that they currently have (seemingly) literally dozens of different models in their lineup, including many that you can buy on Amazon.com. So I can't figure out how to sort through their offerings.

Roxy,
I've never heard of Reaction Audio but just googled their web site and will take a look. Yeah, the Total Eclipse looks amazing! Just over my budget and probably too large for my room.

Leahy,
Very cool information, thank you for mentioning a lot of things I hadn't thought of.

Charles,
Agreed, the Tannoy lineup seems to be all over the map in terms of SET friendliness.

Guppy and Plato,
Wavetouch is interesting. Alex, the owner, actually messaged me some time ago, I guess in response to the whole "Building the ANK Kit 1" thread, and wanted me to try one of his speakers which he said would work much better with my SET than the De Capo's. I know that there are people who love his speakers but they are so odd looking... I just don't know.

Shakey, thanks for the feedback. You still have your Grand Veenas?

Morningstaraudio: I didn't realize that Louis had come out with something new. I'll take a look.

of course, KLipsch is the big go-to company for most when it comes to good value high efficiency speakers. Lots of new and used product out there to dabble with. I would put newer models on the table as well as the more traditional Heritage line.

So many choices....

Look for a pair of used Fab Audio 1 speakers. Heard them driven by a pair of Audio Note Quest Silver 300B...awesome!

The new Omegas are supposed to be excellent. I had a pair of Omega Sticks years ago and they were very good speakers, but Omega has improved the drivers and cabinets and their performance has been taken to a much higher level. My friend has an open baffle pair of Omegas which he loves and he is now buying their top of the line single driver Alnico monitors. I used to own Wavetouch Grand Teton SE monitors and they are very good with 300Bs, but more expensive than Omegas.

Having owned the Pendragon, I would say thte Lore is a fine choice.

Shakey