Coli and Mrdecibel,
I've thought of Klipsch; the pricing of a lot of their floor-standers is certainly very reasonable by high-end standards. The thing is, I find their line to be so huge and diverse that I can't figure out what to even consider. Amazon carries a ton of Klipsch gear, as does our local Fry's Electronics. |
I have been a Klipsch fan for a long time, owning many other designs, brands and models. Owning several pair of Klipsch models, from (all modified) Lascalas, to Epic CF2s, F3s and KG4.2s, I find them to be quite lifelike, and, they all do well with tubes. Optimum room placement and listener distance makes them a winner, at their price points. And, at current used prices, you have nothing to lose. Not perfect, as nothing is. But, more virtues, and less shortcomings, imo. Mentioned above, previous to me, here. MrD |
4)I note that John Atkinson states in his measurements of the older de Capo i version of the speaker that "the speaker's low-frequency tuning is actually a little on the overdamped side." If the same holds true of Rebbi's BE version, its sonics could presumably benefit from the low damping factor of a SET. This would make it a good choice for an OTL as well, and no worries about power or bandwidth. |
Taking it one step further, limited bandwidth would benefit SET sound by rolling off both the lowest and highest frequencies perhaps. The power can go much further with some low end roll off, and not much happens in music at the higher frequencies that we are able to hear typically when younger but likely not able to hear at all anyhow as our ears get older. |
I got the Klipsch 280F (2015 design) with Pass Lab amps, it is incredible value. |
I do not know much about the SET amps specs, but SETs are known for their midrange magic mainly. Since most music occurs in the midrange, excellence there can go a long way if nothing too bad is happening elsewhere. Limited bandwidth in particular is one thing that I believe would work in favor of a SET amp since magic is in the midrange goes a long way. |
Al's observations regarding factors that might contribute to a SET amp having synergy with the Decapos specifically make a lot of sense. Given what is known, I suspect many of those things could well be in play together. |
Bill,
I don't want to hijack this thread any more than I already have, sorry. Bill I have a question for you that I will post on my system page regarding the Yamamto if you don't mind.
Charles, |
One more possible contributor to synergy between Rebbi's speakers and SET amplification, adding to the possibilities listed in my previous post: 4)I note that John Atkinson states in his measurements of the older de Capo i version of the speaker that "the speaker's low-frequency tuning is actually a little on the overdamped side." If the same holds true of Rebbi's BE version, its sonics could presumably benefit from the low damping factor of a SET. Best regards, -- Al |
I purchased my Yamamoto DAC used. They can be purchased new for under $2800 now direct from the builder. The value of the US dollar is very favorable now vs. a few years ago.
The Jupiter cap upgrade and internal silver wire upgrade have now settled in and the sound is fantastic. I love this Dac.
I have yet to mod the 845 amp, but am mapping out a plan of action! |
Rob,,
I paid full retail price for my Yamamoto DAC 5 years ago, it remains one of the very best audio purchases I have ever made.
Charles, |
Hi Bill,
My gut feeling was a successful outcome with your Monaco 845 SET once I learned more about it. I really like the approach of conservative voltage stress on the output tubes backed by a strong power supply. It's good to read that you are so impressed(and happy) with your sound quality using this amplifier.As didiscussed earlier, at your listening levels you're using well under 1 watt of power. Given your modifying expertise have you gone this route yet?
Bill, Rob is very interested in getting the Yamamoto DAC, did you find yours used or buy new as I did? I imagine that the Jupiter capacitors are fully burned in at this point in your Yamamoto.
Charles, |
I must chime in here. I am running 10 DHT watts into my 90db efficient speakers in a 24x18 room with 8 foot ceilings. I sit 7 feet back from the front plane of my speakers and find the combo wonderful. Very dynamic with no hint of distortion, noise or compression at the listening levels I like.
I listen at 75-80 DB and when I get a wild hair up to perhaps 89db weighted average. I have turned it up higher to test and the amp powers my speakers fine.
I was skeptical this combo would work and had been using 300 solid state watts per channel. Well, it is indeed working. My amp is an Ultra Fi Monaco 845 amp that only pushes the tubes to 50-60 percent of their rating. So I think it is a powerful and robust 10 watts. My speakers are 8 ohm and do not drop below 6 ohm I am told. I don't need anymore power. I simply don't.
One must try a combo to know for sure as paper specs can only go so far. Now paper can help you avoid obvious mismatches and one should always start here. |
Charles,
Believe it or not one was for sale here for less than $600.00. I just missed it! At any rate I am on the hunt. If I must pay full price, that is ok. Beats paying $7,000 plus for the latest Lampizator. I am happy with the MiniMax DAC, likely even more happy if I change Op Amps per Doug Schroeder of Dagogo. |
04-30-15: Rebbi
So it makes me think that when looking for a speaker for this kind of amp, it makes some sense to look at brands that are not only high-efficiency and flat impedance, but also otherwise designed with single ended operation in mind. Again, I don't know the physics and engineering of this, but there must be other factors involved in designing a speaker specifically to be "SET friendly."
Almarg, feel free to chime in here. :-) I don't know either, Rebbi. And in the absence of empirical inputs from users and/or the manufacturer, I doubt that it could have been predicted based on its published and measured characteristics that the De Capo would have any particular synergy with SETs (within the maximum volume capability of the combo). Although as you realize the De Capo's relatively benign impedance characteristics at least do not exclude the possibility. Some very speculative guesses, though, as to things that might be contributing factors: 1)Although I haven't seen any frequency response specs or measurements on the Kit1, I would suspect that it has a more limited bandwidth at both ends of the spectrum than most push-pull amps. Perhaps that helps to keep frequencies out of the De Capo that don't have much if any audible significance but that it might not be able to handle comfortably (i.e., without intermodulation or other effects that could result in those frequencies affecting audbily significant frequencies). 2)Perhaps the design of the De Capo is such that it particularly benefits from the enhancement of dynamics that SETs will tend to provide, as Ralph/Atmasphere has explained is a consequence of how their distortion characteristics vary as a function of signal level. 3)As shown in the NRC measurements, the De Capo's impedance has a sharp rise to about 30 ohms in the vicinity of 70 Hz, where a lot of energy is often required. Relative to its rated power capability, a SET will be able to deliver more power into that high impedance than most push-pull amps, especially solid state amps. As I say, though, those are all just speculative guesses as to what might be contributing factors, and I don't think that this particular synergy (within the maximum volume capability of the combo) could be either ruled out or ruled in "a priori." So I agree with the comment by Charles just above. Best regards, -- Al |
Yes, Charles, I now find myself firmly in the "measurements are useful, but how does it actually SOUND" camp. :-) |
Brownsfan (Bill),
It's very interesting to note that you, Rebbi, Rob and the speaker's builder cite the terrific results of 300b or SEP with the De Capo. This in spite of the warnings that the speakers demand more power. Well your Cary and Rebbi's Manley met that criteria yet were found to be inferior sounding. Again proving nothing takes the place of actually listening. Bill you mentioned psychology and for some it is a significant barrier to acceptance.
Charles, |
Brownsfan,
I suppose it makes some sense, at least intuitively, that the De Capo's would be particularly sensitive to amplifier topology, since the main driver is coupled directly to the amplifier signal. I'm sure there's more to it than that, but, based upon your experiences, my experiences and the fact that Reference 3A recommends one of the Antique Sound Lab 300 B SET amps, there really is some "magic" with that speaker and this kind of amplifier.
So it makes me think that when looking for a speaker for this kind of amp, it makes some sense to look at brands that are not only high-efficiency and flat impedance, but also otherwise designed with single ended operation in mind. Again, I don't know the physics and engineering of this, but there must be other factors involved in designing a speaker specifically to be "SET friendly."
Almarg, feel free to chime in here. :-) |
Rebbi, if you recall, I also drove the deCapos with my 500 WPC solid state Cary monoblocks and found the 8WPC Frankensteins drove them better. One of the other posters commented that the deCapos are unusually sensitive to amp/speaker synergy. That is consistent with my experience. I think you are right, well designed 300B SETs may be the pinnacle for that particular speaker. It has been a rewarding experience watching you work your way through this process. This hobby is a place where engineering, physics, biology, and psychology all meet. No wonder it such a meandering path. |
Charles,
One thing I forgot to mention in the Diana Krall example.
After the instrumental introduction to the title track, "When I Look in Your Eyes," Diana enters, singing. She is singing very softly, her mouth is apparently very, very close to the microphone and she is at the lower limits of her vocal range. I always thought that her pitch sounded somewhat wobbly on those opening notes but with the Kit 1, you can hear just how wobbly her pitch is at that moment. It's kind of an odd example, but it did make me smile and does say something about the resolution and musicality of that amplifier. :-) |
Rebbi,
I can relate to your transition as my own experience was near identical. My former amplifier was push pull and very high quality . It was 100 watt in ultralinear and switchable to 60 watt triode and used 6550 or KT88s. In absolute terms this amp has more bass weight and impact , however the gap was narrower than I expected. The SET bass in terms of texture, tone and bloom is more realistic. Impact is definitely enough for my needs. In all other parameters of music reproduction the SET is superior and in all the ways you have pointed out so clearly. Once I got the SET, returning to the PP amp it sounds mechanical and lacks the natural fluidity flow of the 300b
SET. As you noted with your D. Krall example, my SET has superior resolution, transparency and clarity/articulation.
Charles, |
Tubegroover,
I hope you get to hear a SET with your De Capo's one day. If you do, let us know what you think. I don't feel like the Kit 1 runs out of gas with them, but only you can tell in your system and with the music you love. Again, I am in a medium-small room, so that certainly helps! :-) |
Mikirob,
I will be delighted to hear about your wife's experience building the Kit 1. I would certainly go for the best capacitors you can put in the amp – I do think they make a difference. I also recommend seeing if you can get one of these 274 B rectifier tubes from Brian. I did have a chance to compare it with the stock tube during the troubleshooting process and it is a better sounding tube in the amp.
As for me, I'm not rushing to replace the stock 300 B's that came with the kit. I understand that the Black Treasure tubes take quite a while to break in and I'm very happy with the sound I'm getting right now. I do think I'm going to get one of those relatively inexpensive Pangaea power cords from Audio Advisor one of these days.
I hope to build another Audio Note Kits one of these days. I'd like to do one of their phono preamp's or perhaps one of their DAC's. |
Brownsfan,
It's funny that you chime in that this point, because I was thinking the other day that there is some kind of real synergy between the De Capo and 300 B SET amplification. It now makes sense to me that Tash Goka, the head of Reference 3A, recommends one of the Antique Sound Labs 300 B SET amps (which he imports) as a great match with the De Capo. And now, yes, I am remembering that, a long time ago, you said in your comparison that the Coincident Frankenstein sounded pretty great with the De Capo.
Obviously, I cannot compare the the Kit 1 to the Frankenstein 300 B. What I can say is that, while the Kit 1 isn't "cheap" by any means, in the world of high-end audio it's one heck of a great amp at a reasonable asking price. Heck, if you were averse to the do-it-yourself part, you could pay Digital Pete a few hundred dollars to build it for you.
Under those terms it would still be a fine value. |
Charles,
Good question. To be honest, no, there's nothing I miss about the Manley Mahis. At least with my associated equipment, I feel that the Kit 1 betters the Manley's in every way. The Kit 1 is much quieter – it is dead silent even if I turn the volume control all the way up to maximum. Instrumental tone and timbre is miles ahead. (As I mentioned in an earlier post, I was listening to a Joni Mitchell Greatest Hits CD last week and the sound of her voice and the tone of some of the acoustic guitar work was startlingly real.)
As the amp continues to settle in, I have found that low-end response is, surprisingly, at least as good as my old push-pull gear, maybe even a little better. On "Another World," from Joe Jackson's "Night and Day" LP, the big kettle drum whacks have a body to them that I never heard before. Similarly, a few nights ago I was listening to one of my favorite songs from Paul Simon's "So Beautiful or So What" CD. The track "Rewrite," features all sorts of exotic string instruments and percussion, including hits on some kind of very deep sounding talking drum. The energy and authority on those drum hits completely took me by surprise. I think I must have been grinning!
The Kit 1 also has that wonderful ability to present the music as an organic whole, while still giving each component of the music is due without smearing. So, well recorded background vocals sound clean and pure and you can appreciate them both as a unified, harmonic entity while at the same time hearing each voice as its own musical element.
I will give you all one further example.
I own a single Diana Krall CD. I'm not a big fan of hers (no offense to those of you who are) but I bought her CD "When I Look in Your Eyes" a few years ago because I knew that she is an audiophile favorite and wanted to see what the fuss was about.
I can certainly understand why the audiophile crowd loves her. Apart from the quality of the performances (say what you will) the sonics are immaculate.
Anyway, on the opening cut of that CD, "Let's Face the Music and Dance," there is some beautiful (schmaltzy) orchestration that always sounded very pretty on my old amplifiers. But when I listened to that track last night for the very first time on the Kit 1, I was astounded by the presentation. Startlingly, the background went from sounding like "orchestration" to sounding like An Orchestra playing in an auditorium behind the speakers. Now, remember, I have a small, cluttered and fairly acoustically compromised listening room, but I NEVER thought I'd hear music like this in my own home.
So, yeah, you could say I'm happy. ;-) |
I agree Rebbi that you should "stay put" unless given the opportunity to listen to another speaker without financial committment. All I can say is that the longer I live with the DeCapos the more I enjoy them. They are a VERY refined musically involving monitor. All this talk about how well the DeCapo and Kit 1 work together makes me want to challenge my suspicions, primarily that the Kit doesn't have enough gas for large scale dynamic music. I would like to be wrong. It's hard to overlook the enthusiasm of users of low powered SET amps and these speakers. |
Rob,
The Yamamoto DAC is relatively a rare find in the used marketplace. If you can get one for only 1K that is a true steal!(believe me). Given your taste and experience I think you'll really enjoy it. It definitely is geared towards the "music lover" crowd. I'm sure you know what I mean.
Charles, |
Rebbi,
Browns fan gives sage advice, as does Mapman. I really like the Tekton speakers that I own, but also really like the De Capo's as well. My gut feeling is that the AN Kit-1 is a superb match with the De Capo as you described and should get better as your amp breaks in further.
Since you inspired my wife and she is still determined to build the AN Kit-1 herself I've given a lot of thought to what ancillary audio equipment will create real music with a moderate budget. I'm still pondering that equation and think I'm going to do something like this:
AN Kit-1 $2,100-2,500.
Yamamoto Dac $1,000.
My Sony S9000ES SACD/CD as Transport
Tekton Lore Speakers.
Something like Silnote Power Cord, Interconnect, Digital and Speaker cables. Maybe Triode wire...or ???
Probably upgrade to Jupiter Cap...???
Probably upgrade tubes after stock burn-in...Black Treasure ???
Since I already own a bunch of this stuff total cost might be around $5,000. Of course I could also save some money by utilizing my Minimax Dac instead of the Yamamoto which I think I want for my main room system with the Franks.
Best Rebbi, I'm happy for you that all is well and you are thoroughly enjoying the music. |
Rebbi, long, long, ago, in a land far, far away when you started this thread, I drove the deCapos with 3 different amps. If your AN is even remotely close to my Coincident Frankensteins, I am not one bit surprised that you are very pleased with the pairing. Mapman is right. Do nothing without an ability to A/B, and that without financial downside. I am also more than a little interested in the Tekton line, but am in no hurry. Along with everyone else, I am very pleased that things are going well now. |
if what you have is doing good, it makes perfect sense to not get rid of what you have until you have proof of something better That requires actual listening and comparison, one way or another. |
Rebbi,
Are there aspects of the Manley amps you miss or is your AN Kit 300b just a better amplifier across the board for you? Curious because both amps were heard with the same De Capos.
Charles, |
De Capo's are sounding luscious with the Kit 1 these days. I think that the amp continues to settle in. Bass is firming up further and soundstage is huge. Imaging is unreal. Still toying with trying the Lore 2.0's or the Omega Alnico Monitors but only if I can find a way to finance a home trial without selling the De Capo's. Or I may stay put for now. |
Mapman, ubetcha! All I want is music that sounds like music. |
Lew,
Those are in reality very good THD levels for this type of topology. Again IMO with your speaker sensitivity(100-102 db) at your listening levels(80-90 db) you're in the 'tiny' fractions of 1 watt region. We all agree, listening is the best test. |
I'd just listen to determine how things sound at different levels to the extent it matters.
Whatever the numbers and theories all that matters is if it sounds good or not. A trained ear knows. |
Thanks Ralph.
I asked Coincident's Israel Blume about Dynamo's THD and he replied "1% @ 8W , .8% at 1 watt"
Seems the difference in THD from 12.5% power (1W/8W) to full power is not much. Should I conclude there is no much gain from running this amp at lower power % then? No vanishingly low distortion at low power in this design, it seems. |
This is very interesting, Atmasphere. Is this true for SEP as well? True for a Dynamo 34SE?
That was an insightful observation.
Thank you! The 20% thing applies to SETs, which typically make about 10% THD at full power. However below about 20% their distortion is quite low, and if one thinks an SET measure poorly one should try to measure the distortion at the lower power levels and then they don't look bad at all. Its understanding how they are to be used that is in short supply. SEPs are a little different- and because of their inherently higher distortion I would expect that you would want to run them at even less power. Again, speaker efficiency is key: otherwise you simply are not hearing what the amplifier can do. |
Saki70,
You know what they say:
"A thread's not a thread until it hits 500 posts."
:-) |
04-26-15: Lewinskih01
I guess my bottom-line-question is whether the vanishing distortion at lower output level that is a trait of SETs is also a trait of SEPs, like the Dynamo? Hi Lewinski, Ralph can most likely provide the best answer to that question, but pending his response I'll say that the vanishingly low distortion of SETs under small signal conditions is presumably due to a combination of two things: Absence of crossover distortion, resulting from the single-ended operation, and the inherent linearity of good triodes, especially under small signal conditions. The Dynamo, being single-ended, will provide the first of those benefits, so the question becomes the degree to which the linearity and distortion characteristics of an EL34 operated under small signal conditions can approach those of a good directly heated triode such as the 300B. I don't know the answer to that question, but I think it's worth reflecting upon the fact that a lot of very highly regarded amplifiers over the years have used the EL34 in a push-pull configuration, crossover distortion included. Best regards, -- Al |
Rebbi ;
Two pages and counting !
Good luck man . LOL . |
Thanks Charles. Your amps look fascinating, but out of my budget and space constraints for my configuration as 4 monoblocks would be required. The Dynamo looks appealing from cost and space perspective, and obviously from the reports about the way it sounds.
I guess my bottom-line-question is whether the vanishing distortion at lower output level that is a trait of SETs is also a trait of SEPs, like the Dynamo? |
Rebbi, I'll augment Veroman's input: at RMAF I was stunned by the tonality and frequency extension of Audio Nirvana's single-driver setup, which showcased their 12" cone and an EL34 push/pull if I recall correctly. |
Lew,
Here's my situation. My speakers are 94 db and 14 ohm load. I sit 10 feet from them. Average listening volume for me is 75-80 db C weighted. I'm drawing 1/4 to 1/8 of a watt from my amplifier. Theres plenty of reserve if needed(8 watt s at full output). I use my SET full range(speaker has two 10' woofers each).
In comparison your speakers are more sensitive(100-102 db) and you're not requiring your amps to do bass duty as I am. It would seem to me a good quality SET would just coast under your desired circumstances. Your use of SET is much less demanding than mine and I have no problems(best amp and sound I've ever had). So you should be fine IMHO. If you decide to choose a SET just be sure it has a good quality output transformer(this the worse area to go cheap and settle for a poor part).
Charles, |
Hi Lew,
Yes that was my point. At your typical listening levels you are "far" below that 20% threshold and would hardly if ever even reach it. At your listening levels that utilizes so little power, distortion is minuscule. This is the beauty/advantage it the SET. With your situation Lew you're using likely 1/50-1/10th of a single watt! Maybe less. Well below that 20% margin. To hit the 20% power range the sound would be unbearably loud IMO. Probably 95% of my listening is done with less than 1 watt of power and as a result ultra low distortion. That's is a good deal.
Charles, |
Veroman, thanks a lot for that specific information! |
Rebbi, I have 2 sets of audio nirvana speakers. The classic 8 and the 12', both with the basic magnets. the first boxes i had made at a car stero shop as they make boxes for cars anyway. they turned out great. the second boxes i had made by the guy david dicks recommends on his site, he sent them to me unfinished and precut for drivers and posts. they are great too. the cost of the 12inch drivers and boxes and stain etc was under 800 easily. i use an appj amp 3.5 wpc(220$) i got on amazon and rolled the tubes, genalex red lion. The sound is fantastic. i used a smaller cabinet size than i should have out of space concerns so i do miss some very deep bass output but it is so negligible it does not affect my listeneing pleasure. it is a nice treat to be able to select size and finish on your own speaker |
It's pretty well documented that sets do not measure well when it comes to distortion levels compared to other amp topologies. Yet many seem to find the sound uniquely appealing. So yes not an obvious thing it would seem. The fact that no two amp speaker combos sound exactly the same is a pretty good indicator that distortion is prevalent in various forms with most any technology to some extent. The proof in the end is the listening. Nothing is perfect. |
Mapman: Not sure that is what Atmasphere was referring to. He doesn't tend to state the obvious.
Charles: I realize many factors come into play. You might recall a thread of mine. My thinking is revolving around an active 4-way system and the ribbon tweeters I'm looking at are 102 dB sensitive and 5 ohm over the whole range. Midrange would be 100 dB sensitivity and minimum impedance of 4 ohm. Sounds like a good match...at least on paper.
I usually listen at 80-85 dB, and ocassionally get to 90 and maybe 95 rarely.
It looks like I would be meeting Atmasphere's 20% of 8W guideline at all time. Nice. |
Pretty much all amps get more strident when overdriven. Soft clipping helps but one is always well advised to not make an amp work too hard. Nothing special about a set except you get fewer watts before bad things become prevalent. |
Lew,
There are variables to consider, what's your listening level (very important) on average?
What the sensitivity and efficiency of your speakers?
You may only be using fractions of a watt the vast Majority of the time. You should listen to a good quality OTL and SET and decide which suits you better. Theory only takes you so far. You can find sucess with either but you must listen to really know. |
