Just an observation and a question. Are there 'high end' Class D amps out there that are just as good as Class A, A/B amps? I realize that's a sensitive question to some and I mean no disrespect---but whenever I see others' hifi systems on social media, all of the amps are A or A/B. There's always Pass, McIntosh, Moon, Luxman, Accuphase, etc. Where are the Class Ds? For folks out there that want more power for less efficient speakers and can't afford the uber expensive Class As, A/Bs, what is there to choose from that's close to those brands? Thanks
jjss49: "
know that utter transparency is often not the path to musicality of presentation in a hifi system -- sympathetic coloration is frequently the magic ingredient." "
pleasing others, seeking measured accuracy, pursuing ’straight wire w gain’ is often missing the point - which is to assemble a system that plays music so beautifully it moves us makes us smile and feel great."
Hello jjss49,
Very good clarifying comments, too. Thank you. I think we're in complete agreement that the enjoyment of listening to music on an audio system is based on it sounding pleasurable. I think we're in disagreement, however, on whether some sort of system coloration is required, described as euphonic coloration by myself and sympathetic coloration by yourself, to perceiving the overall sound of the reproduced music as sounding pleasurable or if it can also be achieved through the accurate and neutral reproduction of well recorded music that is inherently euphonic or pleasurable. A fine distinction for certain but also one that I think is very important to make and understand. I was actually referring to this distinction in my last post when I stated: "I can relate the very different overall sound quality presentations resulting from the different preamps I've utilized in my system with the D-Sonic monoblocks, ranging from a VTL 2.5L with NOS Mullard tubes swapped out to a few other solid state preamps, if you'd like." Let me explain more thoroughly by relating my experiences with 3 very different preamps I've used with the same pair of D-Sonic M3-600-M class D monoblocks that I can best describe as being powerful, 600 watts each into 8 ohms/1,200 watts each into 4 ohms, very low distortion, with a very low noise floor that have a subjectively and objectively very neutral overall sonic presentation. The other consistent factor in my system is the digital source recordings and equipment, consisting of a combination of ripped Redbook cd APE and hi-res, 24 bit 96 KHz FLAC files stored on a NAS (network area server) hard drive, an Oppo 105 universal disc player serving as a dac and a laptop running JRiver software as the controller/graphic user interface, with all components communicating via wi-fi:
Preamp #1- A VTL 2.5L line stage only preamp with a fairly expensive set of 4 NOS(new old stock) Mullard tubes swapped out for the originally supplied set of 4 Russian or Chinese tubes. This was my initial preamp on my class D audio amp journey that I intentionally employed to impart more warmth, bloom and and dimensionality to the overall system sound quality in order to perceive music as more euphonic and pleasurable. This worked well, as expected and I enjoyed the overall sound quality effects, of a combination of the euphonic or sympathetic coloring qualities of a tubed preamp with the very neutral qualities of class D amps, successfully for 2-3 years.
Preamp #2- A solid state Oppo 105 universal disc player utilized as a preamp. This was mainly done due to my desire to streamline my system and only after carefully comparing my system's overall sq with and without my VTL preamp being utilized. To my great surprise, I discovered that I perceived my music and overall system sounded as just as sweet, warm and dimensional without the VTL tube preamp inserted in the signal chain as it did with it in the chain. I never imagined this would be the result, thought the VTL would be a permanent part of my system and was more than a bit perplexed. But I had to trust my ears and extensively compared results. So, I removed the VTL from my system and sold it to a good friend who was, and still is, very pleased with its performance in his system. This streamlining was only possible because I only had a single digital music source and the NAS hard drive was already connected to my Oppo 105 via its USB input. I was also still able to use the Oppo to play cds, sacds and dvd-A audio discs as well as BluRay HD video discs. I believe the audio performed so well through the Oppo because of its exceptionally high quality, low distortion, low noise. highly isolated and very neutral preamp section. The overall system sound quality effects of my streamlined solid state system creation, combining the very neutral, high quality, low distortion and low noise attributes of the Oppo 105's ss preamp section with the very neutral, high quality, low distortion and low noise attributes of the D-Sonic class D ss monoblock amps, also worked very well but the results were completely unexpected, at least by myself, since this combination still managed to convey the sweetness, bloom and warmth of the music if these qualities existed on the original music and the recordings quality level was sufficient to capture these qualities.
Preamp #3-A Mark Levinson 326S line stage only ss preamp. This is my current preamp, the 3rd I've used with my class D monoblocks, my favorite thus far and the one that has the most interesting pre-Covid story for its use in my system. I was visiting my favorite local hi-end audio shop here in Indy, Audio Solutions, on a Saturday afternoon as I like to do every few weeks to chat with the owner, Graham, and see and hear what's new and interesting. He was demonstrating a pair of Magico A3 and Sonus Faber Stradivari speakers to a good customer from Montana who was trying to decide which pair performed best and which to purchase. The customer saw me and asked if I cared to join him in the audition and help him decide and I quickly agreed. Graham was using a large class AB Mark Levinson amp with a ML 326S preamp and hi-res 24/96 and DSD music files fed through a Lumin D2 dac/streamer for the demos, in order to match Montana's actual system electronics. After Montana and I listened to each pair of speakers for about 30 minutes, I couldn't stop being impressed by and praising the truly amazing stereo soundstage illusions both pair of speakers were able to create with admittedly very well recorded and hi-res source material. The soundstage I perceived from the sweet spot position was of normal width, but was especially deep, detailed and layered. Images were solid, stable, very realistic and amazingly palpable. At first I thought it was the high quality and precisely positioned speakers in a well treated room that was responsible for this astounding stereo soundstage illusion. But Montana said he was shopping for better looking speakers, that also performed very well, to replace his beloved pair of Avantgarde Acoustics large horn speakers that his new bride insisted must depart her new living room. He also seemed less impressed by both the Magico and Sonus Faber ultra-realistic stereo soundstage imaging abilities than I was. I finally asked him about this and he said he achieves even better sound staging results with his Avantgarde horns in his well treated living room. He said he thinks he's become accustomed to the great stereo sound stage imaging but that, while he thought that high quality and precisely positioned speakers along with a well acoustically treated room were also very important, he attributed the addition of the ML 326S preamp, the Lumin D2 dac/streamer and better quality and higher resolution recordings as the main factors in achieving such stunning stereo imaging results in his system. Really, and Graham agrees? Well, what do you know?, I just happen to have a pair of high quality Magnepan 3.7i speakers in a well treated room and half a hard drive's worth of very good and higher resolution recordings. An idea's forming but do I really want to spend $10K on a preamp, un-streamline my system by reinstalling a regular preamp, spend another $2K on a Lumin D2 and hope I can achieve the same excellent stereo imaging results in my room and system? Anyway, we both agreed that the Sonus Faber had more bass but the Magicos had higher quality bass, he said he already had a pair of REL subs that he used in the room, we both agreed once again that the midrange, treble and imaging performance were very good on both speakers, he bought the Magicos and Graham told him he'd ship them to Montana on Monday. After Montana left, Graham broke the good news; he just took in a ML 326S preamp in very good condition on trade that he'd sell to me for half price. So, I bought the preamp and a new Lumin D2 at a small discount.
Well, that was easy!
So, jjss49, what you ask is my long winded point?
Remember your quotes that I requoted at the beginning of this post, that you probably read about a week ago when you began reading this post? Long term memory abilities vary, so here they are again:
"
know that utter transparency is often not the path to musicality of presentation in a hifi system -- sympathetic coloration is frequently the magic ingredient." "
pleasing others, seeking measured accuracy, pursuing ’straight wire w gain’ is often missing the point - which is to assemble a system that plays music so beautifully it moves us makes us smile and feel great."
After recalling my personal preamp and class D amp journey in more detail, my main point is that I still agree with your first comment, but I've now changed my mind about disagreeing with your second comment and only partially agree. I agree that the main point of assembling an audio system is that it "plays music so beautifully it moves us makes us smile and feel great." But I believe my current ML preamp performs so well because it does generally sound very neutral, like a 'straight with gain', but it also somehow seems to round off the strident highs and add a touch of sympathetic coloration at the proper times and to the proper notes. Of course, I know this partial coloration and timing is not logical. I think a more accurate description of the dynamics at work is likely that the preamp is constantly adding a touch of sympathetic coloration or euphony and the music inherently possesses, creates and/or conveys its own perceptions of sympathetic coloration or euphony at specific moments. And at times they probably must occur simultaneously and we perceive the music as exceptionally euphonic and pleasurable at these moments. It would be interesting to know if this can be measured to determine how often they actually do coincide.
@noble100@jjss49 Thanks for the advice and you made a lot of great points. Yes, I'm still learning and experimenting on my audiophile journey. I've never been an impulse buyer and try to do as much research as I can without over doing it. Funny you mentioned D-Sonic, That's at the top of my list and I may try the monos since that's something I've never done before. If times were different, I'd be going to brick and mortar stores to audition all day (like I used to back in the day). Well, the town I live in has 1 store and the customer service is questionable at best. So having a 30-day trial period is nice. W4S offers a 45 day trial---that was another one on my list. The ICs I'll be using with the amp will be Audioquest Big Surs. Do you recommend any particular brand with the D-Sonics? Again, thanks for the thoughtful posts.
many many good points made by noble100 in his lengthy post below
-- know that utter transparency is often not the path to musicality of presentation in a hifi system -- sympathetic coloration is frequently the magic ingredient -- preamp/linestage feeding class d amp is key to sq (corollary is driver stage of the class d module affects the amp’s sound greatly) -- hear enough of what’s possible and learn about yourself and what you like and value in terms of sq -- pleasing others, seeking measured accuracy, pursuing ’straight wire w gain’ is often missing the point - which is to assemble a system that plays music so beautifully it moves us makes us smile and feel great
It seems like you'd like thread posters to focus their attention and advice to your original OP subject. Which I believe is that you're curious about whether your overall system sound quality and performance would improve by utilizing a good quality and high powered class D amp, or pair of monoblocks while using your Luxman integrated's preamp section. Here's my take:
In my experience and in general, high quality class D amps have a very neutral and detailed presentation, like the audio ideal of a 'straight wire with gain'. I believe this is mainly due to their inherent very low distortion levels, very low noise floors and voicing decisions made by the amp's designers, for example Bruno Putzeys, I think other high quality class D amp module desingners have followed Putzeys lead in prioritizing accuracy in their designs. Some prefer this very neutral and accurate quality while others prefer a bit or more of coloration in their overall system sound. Audio enthusiasts have various terms for these preferred colorations, such as 'warmth' or bloom', but they all typically require the amp design to emphasize even ordered harmonics, which humans perceive as euphonic, and attenuate odd ordered harmonics, which humans perceive as not euphonic, in their designs It's also important to note that music itself can have varying degrees of euphonic qualities that we perceive. And that the accuracy or quality of the music recording/mixing process can also either enhance or detract from the music's inherent euphonic qualities we perceive. Personally, I've discovered it's best to view overall system sound as a continuum from very accurate and neutral to not accurate and colored. I believe it's important to actually audition and experience different systems along this continuum to gain a better understanding of the differences in overall system sound qualities possible and which you prefer. I apologize for the length of this post but I know, from a lifetime of personal experience, that finding and creating an overall system sound quality that you really enjoy is complex and full of subtle shades of gray in practice. I make no claims of simplicity in my journey or your possible journey. Nevertheless, I do have a few suggestions that are likely to shorten and simplify your pursuit: It's an asset to be adventurous and to not be overly hesitant to try new or different technologies, ideas or things in general. I know I learn and understand best through personal experience, perhaps you do, too. Trying new and different things are a good way to not only discover what you like and enjoy, but also what you don't like and enjoy. A good example is your idea of combining the high quality preamp section of your Luxman integrated with a high powered and high quality class D stereo amp or pair of monoblocks. From your earlier posted list, I would recommend you begin your journey by trying either a D-Sonic stereo amp (starting at $1,475) or pair of monoblocks (starting at $2,250/pair). I suggest you call the owner, Dennis Deacon, describe your idea and ask for his advice. He's a good guy, very knowledgeable and honest. I know his M3 amps are very good, with very detailed but smooth midrange and treble performance, because I own the M3-600-M monoblocks. He told me the newer M3a amps are even better but I appreciated his honesty in also stating the improvement over mine were subtle and probably not worth the expense of upgrading. He offers a 30 day free-in home audition period with a no questions asked return policy, so there's literally no financial risk. I have no association with D-Sonic, I'm just a big fan. Lastly, I want to mention that the quality and audible sonic characteristics of the preamp utilized with good quality class D amps is extremely important because these qualities are the major determinants of the overall sound quality perceived, since the D-Sonic amps are just going to faithfully amplify the inputted signals without adding or subtracting anything perceptible. I can relate the very different overall sound quality presentations resulting from the different preamps I've utilized in my system with the D-Sonic monoblocks, ranging from a VTL 2.5L with NOS Mullard tubes swapped out to a few other solid state preamps, if you'd like.
@noble100 Thanks ! Appreciate the response.. I have the pass XA25 which gets really warm, but it’s not a room heater like the higher output XA amps can be. I’m in NC too, which is why I eventually let my BAT VK75SE monos go. I was using various class D amps during the summer months. Those were driving my Vonschweikert VR7’s. Have since moved on to some Daedalus Speakers which are 95db sensitive, but need current to come alive. The Lil pass does a good job and sounds SET like without melting the surroundings. Been a great hobby during all the home time..
My baseline was a six year old McIntosh MA-7900 which was lovely and warm, in addition to being easy on the eyes. My speakers were B&W 804Ds -- pretty mainstream... That said, I’m in a new home office and while generously proportioned, I need an amp with a much smaller footprint.
Engaging the folks at Boenicke in Basel for advice, Sven responded directly and suggested that, if patient, I could be an early adopter and trial the new P1 amp (Class D). I’m running his W5SE+ speakers (ridiculously expensive) and sold on their standards of excellence, so I waited...
Now being a month into enjoying the setup, I’m enormously pleased. I’ll next upgrade my W5’s to Boenicke’s W8SE+ floor standers (on a swing base). The W8’s footprint in relation to the W5’s on stands is only modestly larger, but the added volume delivers what can only be heard to be believed.
@bluorion I recommend you google a few basics on Class D amps. First of all, the D does not stand for digital; A, B, and C, were all already taken, so it was simply the next letter in the alphabet. A class D amplification circuit has a different topology/operation from the others. Simplifying a lot, you'll find that many of the amps for sale contain three basic elements, an input buffer, the amp proper, and a power supply. There's a lot of mix and match with these three elements. There are different kinds of input buffer, and even ones that incorporate a tube. There are different amp modules, from Purifi, Hypex, IcePower and several others. There are switching-mode power supplies and linear power supplies; a subset of linear power supplies is those that employ toroidal transformers. Some makers allow you to "assemble" your own amp on their website selecting from the available alternatives. From here it gets a lot more complicated. There are some genuine digital amps (not that many), and the next big thing will likely be GaN amplification. All of these terms are googleable.
madavido The problem with Putzy's quote is that many aspiring a'philes cannot afford class A $$$$$, not just the initial purchase, but also the cost of electricity to run it, and cool it, especially if the owner lives in a warm climate, as I do. Way back when (some 25 years ago) I owned a Kinergetics KBA 75 (all class A), which was amazing, and the only amp of many I tried that could grab a hold of my Genesis Vs and make them play properly. Sadly I blew it up changing power cords without letting the caps discharge
Next, consider most rooms are far from ideal as listening rooms, meaning playback is compromised from the get go. My most recent Ds were Audio Alchemy DPA-1, PS Audio M700s; both sounded quite good, but lacked the drive my large room requires. The back wall (behind me) from my listening position is 3 sided floor to ceiling glass
~ 15ft away, so zero back wall reinforcement
My EVS1200 (~1200 wpc in 4 ohms) does a great job of conveying all the musical ques to my Emerald Physics 3.4s, though over the weekend I reinserted my 2 SVS powered subs which helped considerably to fill the space with a decent SPL
So I'm confused about the little Nuprime ST10 amp (which has gotten rave reviews btw). Its output is rated at 150wpc at 8 Ohms and the same at 4 Ohms(??). Plus it has a toroidal transformer. Does that make it a hybrid of sorts?
A catastrophic event ..he he... is when you win the super duper lotto. That is about the same odds as a wooden backed amp has catching fire. When have you heard of an amp that caught on fire? (I have read about 2 in over 50 years....and no bodies house burned down).. And if it did.......did it have wood on it? The answer to the above is practically never and never. We worry about silly things. By the way, fuses do not help with lightning.....the fuse blows and so does your component. Maybe you mean putting a bomb in the amp? That certainly would be catastrophic. Maybe we can get back to how various amps sound instead of worrying about a wooden back plate. People have different philosophies about what is safe.......some would never do anything without someone else telling them it was safe. Some rely on their own intelligence. Some hide in caves.....some dance in the light. Fear and ignorance is what keeps people from being happy. Trust your self....and dance in joy!
Try using a wooden j-box in your house and telling the electrical inspector he is an idiot because the wires inside it are insulated.
There is no "fire hazard".....same with having cotton covered wires inside.
... It won't work with the safety inspector nor UL, ENEC, etc.
All those protections on the supply are not definitive protections from catastrophic events. There is a reason why electrical products are encased in metal or fire retardant plasics.
I have first watt J2 and F6 and also have Theta Prometheus class D 400 watt monos. About as polar opposite as you can go. I have great thoughts of both he first watt and Theta. For sure class D can sound good anyone who lays a blanket statement over class D amps sounding bad period just ignore them. Find out for yourself. There are many pluses to them namely that they don't heat the damn house up. I don't care in the winter but in the summer hot amps are a drag. Can't be a tree hugger and love class A can you? maybe you can do carbon offsets to make up for it! Also all this stuff about Michael Fremer being a shill for PS Audio I'm sure these keyboard warriors on Audiogon Forums are so enlightened I'd put a lot of faith in what they say.
So, uh, why can't anyone ever describe what their mind-blowing revelatory class D amp sounds like vs what linear amps they own? I do that all the time.
Usually statements like these are made by people who do not like tweaking. So they make something silly up. The power supply in that amp is way away from the back panel. The power supply (a switching one) is completely self protecting......it shuts off if there is over current/over voltage, too high of temperature, DC offset, etc.. Also there is a fuse on the power supply. There is no "fire hazard".....same with having cotton covered wires inside. If you don't understand or like something....then attack it......the ego says. The heart says....what does this do? Maybe I don't know everything. Maybe I should keep my mind open till I have tested this with my ears.
I'm an early adopter of Boenicke's new P1 class D amp. It's basic, but it does it very well. Pair w/Boenicke W8SE+ speakers on a swing base; you'll be blown away.
I'll wait for Atmasphere's amps. If he can do for Class D, what he does for tubes, then I know it will be so good that I don't have to bother looking at other amps. B
You should really add these to your list. https://www.cherryamp.com/ Also, take a look over at AudioCircle; there are a number of active forums from Class D manufacturers and a variety of other threads.
There are so many highly experienced audio pros in this thread that I still get a little overwhelmed by the technical talk, specs, etc. So after reading all the responses, here's what I'm thinking---so I have a pre-out on my Luxman 505uxii integrated and I have a pair of power hungry Dynaudio Special 40s. I am thinking of adding a class D to help the little Dyns and this is why I started the thread. Between looking at the Dynaudio S40 specs and the class D specs, I'm not sure which one would be better (or all of them). Let me know what you think. Also, I've never tried monos so that sounds interesting (budget is < $3k) 1. D-Sonic M3a-800 s (stereo or mono) 2. Wyred 4 sound ST500 Mii (stereo or mono) 3. Nuprime ST-10 or ST10M (really looks interesting)** 4. Bel canto REF500s 5. Red Dragon S500 (all sold out for now but Ryan at RD emailed me and said the Mk3 will be coming out in Q1 of next year---COVID has slowed everything down)
All have great reviews. I think all of them have 3-5 year warranties and pretty good customer service. I appreciate your thoughts and suggestions.
No all regulators do not have "a sound". Circuit implementations have a sound. Even a properly implemented low cost 3 terminal regulator implemented properly will be sonically transparent.
So what you are saying is NO you don’t have measurements. So pure is just your personal taste, not an accurate unbiased assessment. Thank you for clearing that up.
At an electronic level pure can be measured. Given you have no measurements your claim of pure is only that, a claim. You feel it is. I may think it sounds more colored.
I am judging. Too many audiophiles claim to be seeking sonic accuracy because they tweak this or tweak that, meanwhile their listening space is a disaster and they have more money into cables than their speakers.
"Real Audiophiles?" Who is to judge that? Audio is every man for himself. There is no criteria for who has the best sound, or how to achieve it.....as it is all subjective.......the opposite of drag racing.....where most everything is known by everyone and tested by clocks. Best to not rely on ANY one persons opinion.......but base your truth on your own direct experience. All amps that measure the same sound different....all speakers that measure the same sound different......which do YOU prefer? That is what matters.......
He also says audiophiles are wasting time playing with preamps, amps, cables, etc, while ignoring room acoustics and speakers. The real audiophiles keep saying it's all about room acoustics and speakers. The ones that start threads and blather on about cables, fuses, cable risers, etc., Etc. .... We'll make your own conclusions.
There is no perfect "Class". All amps sound different....no matter what the class of amplification is. All classes are imperfect. All need tweaking. If this were not true then we would be all using 1977 Pioneer receivers. Everything has gotten better.....all classes are improving. A great class A is great......a great class D is great. A not so good class A is not so good. A not so good class D is not so good. Every single thing needs to be done at a super level. I have never seen an amp that I could not improve. Just the binding post bypass system will improve any amp. There is no end. We have only just begun....enjoy the ride!
It's problematic for class D when Bruno P. himself in an interview states that if you don't care about efficiency there's no reason to get anything but class A.
Ricevs, I believe Millercarbon has already claimed the title of Master of self Promotion. Perhaps you can choose a new title?
There is nothing wrong with a 3 terminal regulator if followed with adequate filtering. It will be sonically transparent especially if driving a stage with feedback.
I am sure you have measurements that justify your claim of "purer"?
mikem:"
Thanks Tim.. Appreciate the response, but I’m not giving up my Inefficient, heavy Pass class A amp anytime soon.. It sounds too good and checks all the boxes that I find important in an amplifier, and it’s executed so very well. Appreciate the response and Happy Holidays !!"
Hello mikem,
No problem, I was never trying to talk you out of your excellent Pass amp or the very good performance of the class A topology in general. I was more thinking you may want a much cooler running amp, also with very good sound qualities, as an alternative for the warmer months.
Yes when you have this sort of GaN technology with Class-D amps like the flagship Technics SE-R1 with it’s 3 x higher 1.5mhz switching speed, to fix the Achilles Heel of all class-d’s, in the upper mids/highs that many complain about after living with them. And hopefully they’ve carried this switching speed onto their new integrated flagship, yet to be released (Feb-2021) SU-R1000 Integrated. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/technics-su-r1000-a-new-class-d-gan-technology-integrated
If all you have heard is a stock Bel Canto Ref 600.....then you have no idea how good the latest class D is. The Ref 600s use a stock Hypex power supply, a stock Hypex NC500 module and an input buffer that is an integrated circuit powered by two three pin regulators.......and this is for $6K per pair. Now, Bel Canto has updated this amp (now called an e1x)) to make it a stereo amp using the same stock NC500 modules and a single Hypex power supply but finally they made their own discrete front end buffer for the amp......this amp is also $6K and you can read a review (that is completely worthless) on Stereophile. Let’s look at what VTV does....They will sell you a stereo amp with two Purifi modules (slightly better than the NC500s), a single Hypex power supply and their own discrete input buffer board with say Sparko Labs discrete buffers.........basically the same configuration as Bel Canto and the cost is $1500 delivered (including shipping) and 30 day money back. One quarter the price!!!! My modifications to the VTV amp cost $1050 bringing a totally tweaked Purifi based amp to $2600......less than half of Bel Cantos latest thang. The mods completely transform the amp. I actually mod the Purifi board (change the output coils to super OFC air core coils, use better caps on the output filter and bypass the power supply with modified Wima caps).
Bruno is just one of many people who are pushing class D further. The Merrill amps, the AGD amps, the new Technics amps ($10K pure digital integrated coming early next year...OMG!...check it out!), the Cherry amps, New Class D amps, etc. etc. are all fantastic sounding and completely designed by other people. The Purifi module is not "pure" sounding. My mods make it way more "pure". This game goes on and on. As these latest amps (and about to be released amps) get out for more people to hear then the reality of what class D is doing now will finally be known. I will be sending out one of my modded VTV/Purifi amps on tour......so get in line to see what is possible.
Class D is coming of age. Some are still too expensive for most (like the Merrill and AGD amps).......but my modded Purifi and soon others at $3K or less is what we need. The (to be released in Feb.) pure digital class D Technics integrated at $10K...is a preamp, amp, DAC and phono stage with wild distortion reducing stuff in it......so, it is really not that expensive (and you save space, have only one power cord, and no interconnects).
@jjss49 No doubt class D is getting better with each iteration.. I’ve had several of them, Tripath, ICE, Hypex .. Yet I will continue down the road of linear PS, inefficient Class A topology.. Experience has shown me that Class A gets the vocals, textures, etc more Lifelike than other topologies.. Bruno Putnzey has really improved the Class D sound.. I’m sure it’s only going to keep improving too.. Each class type of amps have their strong and weak points.. like everything else.. I’ve moved on to different speaker/amp combination and I’m now enjoying music more and topologies less. Happy Holidays !
@noble100 Thanks Tim.. Appreciate the response, but I’m not giving up my Inefficient, heavy Pass class A amp anytime soon.. It sounds too good and checks all the boxes that I find important in an amplifier, and it’s executed so very well. Appreciate the response and Happy Holidays !!
As I understand it, many class D power modules have traditionally had rising distortion levels as the frequency being reproduced increased. This is what led to these amps sounding a bit overly bright or harsh in the upper treble region and listener fatigue. I think this is what you were perceiving. I believe the new Purifi class D power modules, designed by Bruno Putzeys, have claimed to have solved this problem by significantly reducing distortion in the upper treble region through the use of global negative feedback levels in excess of 35%. Figuring out how to successfully do this has proven to be a very difficult thing to do and is, therefore, considered a technology breakthrough. However, I'm not an expert on this subject and make no claims of having a complete understanding of it. Actually, I find this whole topic a bit perplexing based on my class D experiences. For example, I use a pair of D-Sonic M3-600-M monoblocks in my system that are now over 6 yrs old and utilize Anaview/Abletec power modules that are at least as old technology wise. Why do these amps provide upper treble frequency performance in my system and with my main speakers that is, according to my perceptions, very detailed and revealing without ever sounding harsh or bright? Do these amps or modules utilize some alternative method or technology to provide such high quality levels of performance? Perhaps I'm boasting a bit about the high quality performance levels of these amps, but the main factors influencing my inquiries are curiosity, a search for logical and reasonable explanations and the attainment of knowledge and understanding. My suggestions for you, mikem, are that you are likely to find very good class D amp options in a new Purifi module based amp, a new or used D-Sonic amp or amps or even other high quality class D amps. As other experienced users have already mentioned, not all class D amps sound the same and I'm certain they all don't reproduce the upper treble frequencies in an overly bright, harsh or fatiguing manner.
this is of course the correct answer... like any technology/format it is in the implementation quality, skill of the designer, the care in the voicing
over 300 posts in this thread... much heat very little light
people bellyache why a sub 1000 dollar class d amps sounds like crap... well there are cheap class ab amps and tube amps that sound poor too... true for more expensive ones too...
Class D done right can sound very good.. I had the Bel Canto Ref 600M based on the hypex 400 modules. cool running, silent and very dynamic. I replaced my BAT VK75SE with them.. I had them paired with some Focal 1028’s and found them to be too bright on top, Just couldn’t listen for too long without turning it down or fatigue, Not a great match for my tastes.. I moved to a Pass Class A amp and now I have more heat, mass and cost.. but Now I have music I can listen to for hours on end.. Well worth the trade off I’m afraid..
I bought a pixie dust sprinkled EVS 1200 dual mono from tweakaudio roughly a year ago. Prior to buying it I had the PS Audio M700s which I liked quite a bit, but my quite large room needs even more umph which the EVS1200 delivered in spades- no tube input needed, or wanted. Best was it was a mere $2300 (~ the same price as the M700s). Since PS Audio went direct, IMO, they should reduce their prices to reflect the 40% dealer markup, so while Micky F was very impressed, they are not the bargain they should be, and I doubt they would rival tweakaudios version
Michael Fremer says it drives the Wilson’s very well? I have not read the review yet. OH NO, this cannot be. George will never talk to us again.
You believe Fremer on any PS audio product? good luck with that
I see a slight problem in Michael Fremer’s review of the PSA amps...he and Paul McGowan happen to be very good friends...so..for reality’s sake...I would take that review with a grain of salt.
You can say that again.
JA bench tests found this PS Audio amp’s distortion rises very quickly into 2ohms, about 3 x higher even only at 1/3rd it’s output power, would be nice to see what the distortion would be then with the Alexia’s 0.9ohm!!!
And as for wattage power tests into 8 and 4ohms yes it does well, just like any Class-D, but JA didn’t post up any test or mention into 2ohms, and you can only guess why, as he nearly always does with linear amps.
JA Like he did with the smaller A-Class Gryphon Essence poweramp 8ohms 53w (all in Class-A) 4ohms 101w (said to be all Class-A as well) 2ohms 182w
Moto Guzzi's feel very similar to the BMW horizontal flat twin
vibrations, both are no-where near as smooth as he V Twin Ducati.
For along time the 916 was my dream bike. Then a friend let me ride it and I never wanted to ride one again. It vibrated more than my Guzzi, the seat was hot and I nearly threw the thing on the ground trying to turn into an entrance ramp at slow speed; I was unprepared for its limited turn radius.
Actually you can get the Laverdas to be quite smooth (but not as smooth as a 90 degree or 180 degree twin). The trick on the triples is a computer controlled timing advance. It also helps to weight the ends of the handlebars. With the twins they are actually well-behaved on account of the pistons being 180 degrees apart when firing, and a well-weighted flywheel. Despite all that, they hold up extremely well.
This statement is not correct! And as far as Laverda's go your lucky to keep your fillings in your teeth after a ride.
Moto Guzzi's feel very similar to the BMW horizontal flat twin vibrations, both are no-where near as smooth as he V Twin Ducati.
Ducatis and Moto Guzzi as you know share the same top end angles between their cylinders so vibration harmonically cancels; i.e. 'naturally balanced'.
This statement is not correct either. Ducati's V-twins are perfect balanced because of the counter weighting that can be done (my mistake saying they were "naturally balanced")
Ducati: The first thing is that Ducati V twins have or 90 degrees. This uniquely makes it possible to balance a 90-degree twin with counterweights of 100 percent of one piston's shaking force.
Moto Guzzi: "There are two aspects to our Moto Guzzi engines. One is that they are "fairly" vibration free compare to some other twins (like HD and old British twins) but "they still have secondary vibrations". But that is also separate from the side to side torqueing vibration of the motor that is more noticeable when you get on or off the gas but is always there." "Guzzi parts are not well balanced and the transverse layout also contributes...the late, great Gordon Jennings felt that transverse engines seem to vibrate more.."
Ducatis like the 900 you had look fabulous; there's a few of those here in town. Apparently every single one of them emerged from boxes, and as you pointed out, your 750 Sport (also a fabulous looking bit of Italian dreamwork) is in boxes as I write this. That's where most of them are.
OTOH most of the older Laverdas you see in town have been in service (not boxes) since they were built (to be clear, there aren't nearly so many around). Ducati certainly is one of the few to make the Desmo drive work, but if its about riding across the country (here in the US that can be 1000s of miles) I'd prefer to do it on a Laverda even though some of their parts are harder to find (they vibrate more too), simply because it will hold together (I had both the 750SF2 and a Jarama 1000 triple). Ducatis and Moto Guzzi as you know share the same top end angles between their cylinders so vibration harmonically cancels; i.e. 'naturally balanced'.
The rogue sphinx is a nicely designed class D/tube hybrid integrated. A very tastefully done design and no nonsense looks. The top of the line Marantz integrated is of a class D design. Not certain but I think it’s the PM 10. Also, the well reviewed Ruby integrated by Marants, designed by the late Ken ishiwata, you guessed it, class D.
None of the 750 Sport as yet all it’s in bits in my workshop, but here are two shots of my Desmo 900 Super Sport I also restored slightly modded, and sold 10 years ago. https://ibb.co/sw59hSw https://ibb.co/vmR8gbH
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