bluorion:"
@noble100 Thanks for the suggestions----I've heard good things about D-Sonic. What preamp(s) have you used with the D-Sonics? I'm not really a tube person--I prefer SS. I've never had mono blocks so that's something I need to check out too.
Hello bluorion, I've used 3 very different preamp solutions thus far in my combo 2-ch music and HT 5.1 surround sound system. They're listed 1-3, with 1 being my 1st preamp solution and 3 being my current preamp: 1. A VTL 2.5TL tube preamp, with a set of 4 NOS (new old stock) Mullard tubes replacing the stock Russian tubes, which had a HT/Pass Thru switch. This was my initial preamp solution 2. An Oppo 205 universal disc player that I incorporated into my system with the main purpose being to streamline my system by reducing the number of components and interconnects. 3. A Mark Levinson 326S ss preamp, which has a devoted input for HT that serves as a HT/Pass Thru switch. The tubed VTL definitely added more dimensionality to the stereo sound stage image illusion and sweetness, warmth and euphonic qualities to the tones, as I was intending and hoping. But I also believe these benefits came at the expense of perceived articulation and a detailed presentation due to a decrease in neutrality and increase in distortion and background noise levels. The very accurate, low noise, low distortion and very neutral qualities of the Oppo 205 definitely added very little, if anything, to the left and right channel signals. Unexpectedly however, the sweetness, warmth and euphonic qualities to the tones were still present but seemed to be more naturally produced by the music rather than any tube-like additions, especially on good recordings. But I noticed the increased neutrality and detailed articulation, along with the decreased distortion and background noise levels, didn't enhance my perception of the stereo sound stage illusions being more real and dimensional as the additive qualities of the tubes were able to create. The very accurate, low noise, low distortion and very neutral qualities of my current Levinson 326S preamp, combined with its very tube-like ability to enhance my perception of the stereo sound stage illusions as being more real and dimensional, has caused me to fall in love with this preamp. No matter which preamp you wind up preferring, however, I'd suggest not trying to overthink the system changes involved with utilizing monoblock amps rather than a single stereo amp. Monoblocks just further the concept and benefits of using separate components in the first place. Isolation is improved and cross-talk is reduced, by placing the left and right channel amplification circuitry in their own isolated and shielded cases. For connectivity, you simply run a single unbalanced rca or balanced xlr cable from each of the preamp's left and right outputs to each monoblock's input. Simple and easy peasy. Later, Tim |
I'm a big fan of class D amps, however, I've noticed that they do tend to truncate the natural decay times on bass notes, which I believe is due to their very high damping factors. I find this a bit ironic, since class D is often dismissed as only good enough for sub amplification.
I'm wondering if others have noticed this because I've never read about this unnatural class D shortening of decay times here or anywhere else. It's important to note that this class D bass note decay time truncation issue is not something that is easily and immediately discerned by listeners, mainly because it's more distinct on certain instruments, notes and types of music.
When I listened to my first class D amp, a Class D Audio SDS-440-CS with a rated damping factor of over 1,000, driving my former Magnepan 2.7QR speakers, for example, I distinctly recall perceiving the bass performance as the best I had ever heard on them since I bought them used about 6 years earlier. I perceived the bass as clearly being more prominent, powerful and dynamic as well as tauter and, at least initially, seemingly more detailed through my new class D amp than through my prior class AB Aragon and McCormack amps.
It wasn't until about 6 months later, after installing an Audio Kinesis Debra 4-sub distributed bass array (DBA) system with all subs driven by a separate class AB 1K watt amp with a DF about 300-500, that I first became aware of this class D decay time truncation issue on bass notes.
I ran my Magnepan panel speakers full range knowing they only had a rated bass extension of 35 Hz. My main purpose for installing the AK DBA system in my room was to provide full bass extension down to 20 Hz and provide the bass power and dynamics that my Magnepans lacked between 20 and about 40 Hz.
I clearly noticed the bass quality was much improved being reproduced through the AK DBA system. The bass was even more powerful and dynamic, as expected, but it was also smoother, faster and much more detailed. I believe it was this added detail that enabled me to notice the stark difference between how the AK DBA reproduced the decay times of bass notes in much finer articulation, without any truncations and with more natural sounding durations than the class D amp was able to reproduce them through just my main speakers.
Of course, I realize there's likely more factors involved in achieving high quality bass performance in a system and room than the type of amp used and its rated damping factor. The truth is that, more than anything else, I was surprised by the truncation of bass notes through just the class D amp driving my mains and the vast improvement in their reproduction, along with other benefits, provided by the addition of multiple good quality subs driven by a class AB amp.
Currently, it's just my theory that the DF of the amp(s) utilized in a system is an important factor in determining the quality of a system's ability to accurately reproduce the decays of bass notes. This is all based on my personal experiences, however, and I understand that I'm no expert and that we typically don't know what we don't know.
Which suggests that there are likely other important factors involved.
Tim
|
bluorion: " Tim---you nailed it! I think that’s what I’m missing---don’t get me wrong, I love the sound from my 505 but I often wonder if the extra "punch" and bass could be added with a class D. From what I’ve seen on here, the class Ds could add some extra bass due to the higher damping factor. I may try the D-Sonic 800 amp and see what happens. Thanks for the recommendation. Question: if I connect the D-Sonic to the Luxman, will I lose the gorgeous blue VU meters? :)" Hello bluorion, I agree, since we know your Luxman integrated has a very good preamp section, no guarantee but why not give a good quality class D amp or amps a try? However, I believe you won’t lose the blue meters but I doubt they’ll be active when using the pre-outs. Sorry. But there is an alternative solution for incorporating more punch, impact and dynamic range into your system you may want to consider, at least for the bass frequencies, is to add at least a pair of good quality subs to your system if you have the room. Your S40s only have a rated bass extension down to 41 Hz and your Lore References only down to 37 Hz, so you’re not hearing or feeling all the bass on your source recordings that typically contain bass down to the audible limit of 20 Hz. That’s a lot of bass and bass impact to give up. My main speakers, a pair of Magnepan 3.7i, only have a rated bass extension down to 35 Hz, so my system was also initially lacking the impact created by full bass extension down to 20 Hz along with powerful bass dynamics. I was able to incorporate this missing bass and bass dynamics seamlessly into my system, however, by installing an Audio Kinesis 4-sub Swarm distributed bass array (DBA) system into my room that worked incredibly well. Now, I’d need to know more about your room dimensions and budget, but this $3,200 complete kit system may just be the ideal solution for your system, too. Here’s a link of an Absolute Sound review of it that provides a very accurate description of what to expect it to provide: https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/audiokinesis-swarm-subwoofer-system/ Here’s a link to the Audio Kinesis website: http://www.audiokinesis.com/the-swarm-subwoofer-system-1.html I have no affiliation or association with Audio Kinesis, I’m just a big fan of the company and the 4-sub DBA concept because it works so well. I bought and installed this system in my room about 6 years ago and I honestly consider it the best upgrade I’ve ever made to my combination 2-ch music and 5.1-ch home theater system. I think you’ll probably think so, too, though even using a less expensive solution of a pair of good quality subs could produce similar results. But I’ll wait until you post a reply before continuing our discussion. Later, Tim |
jjss49:
"
know that utter transparency is often not the path to musicality of presentation in a hifi system -- sympathetic coloration is frequently the magic ingredient."
"
pleasing others, seeking measured accuracy, pursuing ’straight wire w gain’ is often missing the point - which is to assemble a system that plays music so beautifully it moves us makes us smile and feel great."
Hello jjss49,
Very good clarifying comments, too. Thank you. I think we're in complete agreement that the enjoyment of listening to music on an audio system is based on it sounding pleasurable. I think we're in disagreement, however, on whether some sort of system coloration is required, described as euphonic coloration by myself and sympathetic coloration by yourself, to perceiving the overall sound of the reproduced music as sounding pleasurable or if it can also be achieved through the accurate and neutral reproduction of well recorded music that is inherently euphonic or pleasurable.
A fine distinction for certain but also one that I think is very important to make and understand. I was actually referring to this distinction in my last post when I stated:
"I can relate the very different overall sound quality presentations resulting from the different preamps I've utilized in my system with the D-Sonic monoblocks, ranging from a VTL 2.5L with NOS Mullard tubes swapped out to a few other solid state preamps, if you'd like."
Let me explain more thoroughly by relating my experiences with 3 very different preamps I've used with the same pair of D-Sonic M3-600-M class D monoblocks that I can best describe as being powerful, 600 watts each into 8 ohms/1,200 watts each into 4 ohms, very low distortion, with a very low noise floor that have a subjectively and objectively very neutral overall sonic presentation. The other consistent factor in my system is the digital source recordings and equipment, consisting of a combination of ripped Redbook cd APE and hi-res, 24 bit 96 KHz FLAC files stored on a NAS (network area server) hard drive, an Oppo 105 universal disc player serving as a dac and a laptop running JRiver software as the controller/graphic user interface, with all components communicating via wi-fi:
Preamp #1- A VTL 2.5L line stage only preamp with a fairly expensive set of 4 NOS(new old stock) Mullard tubes swapped out for the originally supplied set of 4 Russian or Chinese tubes. This was my initial preamp on my class D audio amp journey that I intentionally employed to impart more warmth, bloom and and dimensionality to the overall system sound quality in order to perceive music as more euphonic and pleasurable.
This worked well, as expected and I enjoyed the overall sound quality effects, of a combination of the euphonic or sympathetic coloring qualities of a tubed preamp with the very neutral qualities of class D amps, successfully for 2-3 years.
Preamp #2- A solid state Oppo 105 universal disc player utilized as a preamp. This was mainly done due to my desire to streamline my system and only after carefully comparing my system's overall sq with and without my VTL preamp being utilized. To my great surprise, I discovered that I perceived my music and overall system sounded as just as sweet, warm and dimensional without the VTL tube preamp inserted in the signal chain as it did with it in the chain. I never imagined this would be the result, thought the VTL would be a permanent part of my system and was more than a bit perplexed. But I had to trust my ears and extensively compared results. So, I removed the VTL from my system and sold it to a good friend who was, and still is, very pleased with its performance in his system.
This streamlining was only possible because I only had a single digital music source and the NAS hard drive was already connected to my Oppo 105 via its USB input. I was also still able to use the Oppo to play cds, sacds and dvd-A audio discs as well as BluRay HD video discs. I believe the audio performed so well through the Oppo because of its exceptionally high quality, low distortion, low noise. highly isolated and very neutral preamp section.
The overall system sound quality effects of my streamlined solid state system creation, combining the very neutral, high quality, low distortion and low noise attributes of the Oppo 105's ss preamp section with the very neutral, high quality, low distortion and low noise attributes of the D-Sonic class D ss monoblock amps, also worked very well but the results were completely unexpected, at least by myself, since this combination still managed to convey the sweetness, bloom and warmth of the music if these qualities existed on the original music and the recordings quality level was sufficient to capture these qualities.
Preamp #3-A Mark Levinson 326S line stage only ss preamp. This is my current preamp, the 3rd I've used with my class D monoblocks, my favorite thus far and the one that has the most interesting pre-Covid story for its use in my system.
I was visiting my favorite local hi-end audio shop here in Indy, Audio Solutions, on a Saturday afternoon as I like to do every few weeks to chat with the owner, Graham, and see and hear what's new and interesting. He was demonstrating a pair of Magico A3 and Sonus Faber Stradivari speakers to a good customer from Montana who was trying to decide which pair performed best and which to purchase. The customer saw me and asked if I cared to join him in the audition and help him decide and I quickly agreed.
Graham was using a large class AB Mark Levinson amp with a ML 326S preamp and hi-res 24/96 and DSD music files fed through a Lumin D2 dac/streamer for the demos, in order to match Montana's actual system electronics. After Montana and I listened to each pair of speakers for about 30 minutes, I couldn't stop being impressed by and praising the truly amazing stereo soundstage illusions both pair of speakers were able to create with admittedly very well recorded and hi-res source material. The soundstage I perceived from the sweet spot position was of normal width, but was especially deep, detailed and layered. Images were solid, stable, very realistic and amazingly palpable. At first I thought it was the high quality and precisely positioned speakers in a well treated room that was responsible for this astounding stereo soundstage illusion.
But Montana said he was shopping for better looking speakers, that also performed very well, to replace his beloved pair of Avantgarde Acoustics large horn speakers that his new bride insisted must depart her new living room. He also seemed less impressed by both the Magico and Sonus Faber ultra-realistic stereo soundstage imaging abilities than I was. I finally asked him about this and he said he achieves even better sound staging results with his Avantgarde horns in his well treated living room.
He said he thinks he's become accustomed to the great stereo sound stage imaging but that, while he thought that high quality and precisely positioned speakers along with a well acoustically treated room were also very important, he attributed the addition of the ML 326S preamp, the Lumin D2 dac/streamer and better quality and higher resolution recordings as the main factors in achieving such stunning stereo imaging results in his system. Really, and Graham agrees? Well, what do you know?, I just happen to have a pair of high quality Magnepan 3.7i speakers in a well treated room and half a hard drive's worth of very good and higher resolution recordings. An idea's forming but do I really want to spend $10K on a preamp, un-streamline my system by reinstalling a regular preamp, spend another $2K on a Lumin D2 and hope I can achieve the same excellent stereo imaging results in my room and system?
Anyway, we both agreed that the Sonus Faber had more bass but the Magicos had higher quality bass, he said he already had a pair of REL subs that he used in the room, we both agreed once again that the midrange, treble and imaging performance were very good on both speakers, he bought the Magicos and Graham told him he'd ship them to Montana on Monday.
After Montana left, Graham broke the good news; he just took in a ML 326S preamp in very good condition on trade that he'd sell to me for half price. So, I bought the preamp and a new Lumin D2 at a small discount.
Well, that was easy!
So, jjss49, what you ask is my long winded point?
Remember your quotes that I requoted at the beginning of this post, that you probably read about a week ago when you began reading this post? Long term memory abilities vary, so here they are again:
"
know that utter transparency is often not the path to musicality of presentation in a hifi system -- sympathetic coloration is frequently the magic ingredient."
"
pleasing others, seeking measured accuracy, pursuing ’straight wire w gain’ is often missing the point - which is to assemble a system that plays music so beautifully it moves us makes us smile and feel great."
After recalling my personal preamp and class D amp journey in more detail, my main point is that I still agree with your first comment, but I've now changed my mind about disagreeing with your second comment and only partially agree.
I agree that the main point of assembling an audio system is that it "plays music so beautifully it moves us makes us smile and feel great." But I believe my current ML preamp performs so well because it does generally sound very neutral, like a 'straight with gain', but it also somehow seems to round off the strident highs and add a touch of sympathetic coloration at the proper times and to the proper notes.
Of course, I know this partial coloration and timing is not logical. I think a more accurate description of the dynamics at work is likely that the preamp is constantly adding a touch of sympathetic coloration or euphony and the music inherently possesses, creates and/or conveys its own perceptions of sympathetic coloration or euphony at specific moments.
And at times they probably must occur simultaneously and we perceive the music as exceptionally euphonic and pleasurable at these moments. It would be interesting to know if this can be measured to determine how often they actually do coincide.
Sorry I wrote a book.
Later,
Tim |
Hello douglas_schroeder,
I've been reading your professional published audio reviews and your occasional posts here for years. I've always respected your knowledge, experience and opinions as well as your abilities to articulate sound quality and performance characteristics and differences.
So the above is all true and I respect your judgment. Now, would you please not keep us in suspense any longer and spill the beans on the identity of your newly discovered class D high quality performer?
Thanks,
Tim |
mrdecibel:"
So, in a nutshell....I want to try a Class D amp. I am looking for 1, that can do all of the best things, tubes and solid state, do wonderfully ( I would say we all want this ). Black background, dynamic, fast and well tempo'd, neutral in tone, no added warmth or color, a beefy power supply ( 50 years later and I still believe in this ), a well damped, non resonant chassis ( this too, is necessary ), well, something that can make my Lascalas ( modified and tweaked, of course ) sing more than how they sing, now.. I have been strictly using solid state for the last 20 years ( no tubes for me, unless a reasonably priced unit gives me all of the above )."
Hello mrdecibel,
My opinion is that there are probably numerous new solid state class D amps currently available, as well as likely some on the used market, that would meet all of your criteria:"
Black background, dynamic, fast and well tempo'd, neutral in tone, no added warmth or color, a beefy power supply ( 50 years later and I still believe in this ), a well damped, non resonant chassis ( this too, is necessary ), well, something that can make my Lascalas ( modified and tweaked, of course ) sing more than how they sing, now.."
Unfortunately, I've not been as active in auditioning good quality class D amps over the past 6 years or so, ever since auditioning and being completely satisfied with a pair of D-Sonic M3-600-M monoblock amps that I auditioned for about a month on a free in-home trial basis and then purchased for about $2,100 at that time. These are still my main system amps, have been powered on 24/7 virtually since I first installed them and I remain very pleased with their performance, sound quality and reliability.
I looked at your system pics, however, and I'm a bit confused. You seem to have numerous systems shown in the pics with high quality electronics along with similarly high quality speakers that I know would place varying demands and requirements on any amp or amps driving them, specifically in terms of wattage, current and impedance demands.
In other words, I'm not sure whether your profile system pics represent all of your system iterations over the last few decades or if the pics represent the entirety of all the very high quality audio gear that you currently still own and want to utilize.
If it's the latter, then I'm amazed, astounded, impressed and give you a very big tip of my plumed pimp hat, that I'm currently wearing in my underpants along with my brand new leather boots, to you out of total awe, envy and respect. I'd also advise you that I have virtually no doubt that a used pair of the D-Sonic M3-600-M monoblocks, or a new pair of their current model M3(a)-600-M amps, would perform very well driving all of the pictured speakers, even the notoriously difficult large Apogees, and would be a very good choices to audition.
My only caveat is that these amps probably have an excess of power, with 600/1,200 watts at 8/4 ohms, and current, about 28 amps, for your needs. Although I haven't tried any of them yet, I also suspect that any of the newer class D amps, based on the Purifi power modules, would also likely perform very well.
I'm assuming it's the former, however, due to statements you made from your last post, that your currently looking for an amp or amps to power your pair of extremely high,105 db, efficiency Klipsch LaScala main speakers. Given the well known ultra high efficiency as well as the very high performance quality level of your LaScalas, I literally feel an obligation to advise you to at least consider and audition a good quality tube amp with the LaScalas. The LaScalas are ideal speakers for being driven by low powered tube amps and are even well known as being sufficiently efficient to be driven by headphone amps.
I'm sensing dichotomies, conflicts and a lack of clarity in your thought process about your overall system sound qualities and preferences. On the one hand, your chosen main speakers are very high quality, highly efficient horn type speakers that are normally paired with lower powered tube amps for a resultant overall system sound character that is warm, colored to some degree, euphonic, smooth, 3-dimensional and palpable.
On the other hand, your stated preferred characteristics in an amp are "
Black background, dynamic, fast and well tempo'd, neutral in tone, no added warmth or color, a beefy power supply ( 50 years later and I still believe in this ), a well damped, non resonant chassis ( this too, is necessary ), well, something that can make my Lascalas ( modified and tweaked, of course ) sing more than how they sing, now.." These qualities are a good description of what to expect from a good quality class D amp.
I'm questioning whether you're mainly interested in just trying something new, such as a class D amp, in your system or if you're certain that you prefer the typical qualities provided by a good quality class D amp: very low noise and distortion, a dead silent background, powerful, dynamic, smooth, fast, accurate and detailed that has a neutral overall presentation with no added warmth or color.
If you're looking for these qualities, along with beefy linear toroidal transformer power supplies, I can state with certainty that either a used or new pair of D-Sonic monoblocks will provide them and I think it's highly likely that the new Purifi power module based amps are likely to as well.
Tim
|
I would add a couple more brands to those already mentioned by goldprintaudio and roxy54 that I personally own and know are very good:
$ Class D Audio
$$ Emerald Physics
$$$ D-Sonic
I used the number of $ symbols to denote general price level, the more symbols the higher the general prices from the brand. The truth is there are a lot of very good class D amps currently available, ranging in price from about $500 to $50K plus. I’m fairly certain more good brands and models will be mentioned.
It seems like you’re already aware that there’s generally a wide range of opinions on the sound quality and performance levels of class D amps. Based on prior threads on class D, you’re likely to receive the usual parroted claims of ’it’s only good enough for powering subs’, ’there’s something wrong or missing from the sound’, ’it sounds overly sterile or bright’ and ’it’s not quite as good the best traditional amp types yet’.
When I read these type of replies, I usually assume that most of these individuals have obviously never listened to a high quality class D amp and simply just don’t know what they don’t know. I suggest you try to listen to several high quality class D amps, as well as several traditional high quality amps, and rely on your own sound quality perceptions, preferences and judgement.
It’s important for you to realize, however, that many good quality class D amps are sold online only and are not readily available to audition at some retailers. But this has its benefits, too, since this has typically resulted in lower amp prices and most class D companies offer free in-home trial periods of their amps for about a month.
Just like other amp types, not all class D amps sound the same. Based on the 3 class D amps I own and the many I’ve listened to, however, my opinion is that they all share some similar basic qualities: very good bass response due to exceptionally high rated damping factors, an overall neutral presentation along with very low distortion levels and a dead-quiet background noise floor, which results in high levels of detail and a very realistic and 3 dimensional sound stage illusion.
If you’re looking for a high powered amp or amps to drive a pair of inefficient speakers, that are also very competitive sound quality wise with the better class A and AB amps but are less expensive, I’m not aware of a better solution than a good quality class D amp or pair of monoblocks.
I was searching for virtually the same thing as you are about 8 years ago, after my Aragon 4004 MKII high powered class AB amp died on me, and I needed a reasonably priced, high powered replacement amp to drive my inefficient, 86 db/at 1 W, Magnepan 3-way dipole main speakers.
I bought my very 1st class D amp, a Class D Audio SDS-440-CS stereo class D amp, for about $600 and was amazed how well this amp drove my pair of Magnepans. I remember being stunned that this relatively inexpensive amp, that was about 1/4th the size, weight and price of my former Aragon amp, was able to significantly outperform it in every category I care about while consuming a fraction of the electricity and never getting warmer than tepid to the touch.
I was so impressed, I bought an Emerald Physics EP100.2SE stereo and a pair of D-Sonic M3-600-M monoblock class D amps in fairly quick succession, mainly out of curiosity and to explore just how well these newer type amps actually perform.
I discovered the D-Sonic monoblocks are the best amps I’ve ever used thus far on my Magnepans. They’re about $2,100/pair, I’ve been using these for the past 6 years, they’ve been powered on 24/7 the entire 6+ years and they’re still performing great.
If these are within your budget, I suggest you at least audition a pair of these for a month for free. I seriously doubt you’ll want to send them back for a full refund.
Best wishes,
Tim |
tvad:"
@noble100, what module is used in the D-Sonic amps? Do you know? I went to the site, and did a quick internet search and could not fine the info. Apparently in the top of the line model it’s not an ICE module."
Hello tvad,
My D-Sonic M3-600-M monoblocks are over 6 years old now and are their previous model. Mine use Abletec/Anaview class D modules. Their latest M3a-600-M monoblocks are the same price but use Pascal Pro2 modules, that have switch mode power supplies incorporated into the module. I believe these are the same modules that Rowland utilizes in their Continuum S2 integrated amp.
D-Sonic's owner, Dennis Deacon, told me when the M3a-600-M monos first came out that he thought the Pascal Pro2 modules subtly outperformed the Abletec/Anaview modules in my M3-600-M amps.
I know D-Sonic's top of the line monoblocks have gone through several upgrades and corresponding model number changes over the past about 6 years since I've been aware of them; from the M2-1500-M to the M3-1500-M to the current M3a-1500-M models.
Sorry, I'm not certain about the specific modules they used in each but I do believe they haven't used Ice modules in their top of the line monos for at least 6 years, if ever. I'm fairly certain, however, that Dennis Deacon would give you the details if you called and asked him: 800-862-7998.
Later,
Tim |
Hello arcticdeath,
You're obviously inexperienced and have never listened to a good quality class D amp. What makes you believe your opinion on this subject has any constructive value?
Tim |
Hello dodgealum,
It sounds like you already have picked out the sub you want to use and it's a high efficiency passive sub, with passive meaning it has no internal amplifier. I just have a few suggestions for you based on my fairly extensive experience incorporating 1-4 subs in my system utilizing Magnepan main speakers with a rated bass extension of only 35 Hz:
1. A pair of subs will perform roughly twice as well as a single sub in virtually any room and system. The bass will be smoother, faster, more dynamic, as powerful as the source material calls for and with a greater sense of ease, more detailed and better integrated with your main speakers regardless of their speaker type.
2. The bass will likely sound more detailed and natural to you if you power your sub or subs with a class AB amp instead of a class D amp. The reason is due to the extremely high rated damping factors of most class D amps, often rated above 1,000 while class AB amps are typically rated in the 100-400 range.
The higher the rated damping figure of an amp, the more precisely it is able to control the starting and stopping of the sub's transducer, which I believe is a normal dynamic cone woofer in your sub. This precise control is usually considered a beneficial quality in a sub amp. But if the amp's rated damping factor is excessively high, such as over1,000 on some class D amps, then the amp has the capacity to very suddenly and abruptly stop the woofer as the woofer travels along its normal in and out or up and down path motion. The audible result, of a woofer suddenly and abruptly stopping along its path, is that the normal, natural, slow and gradual decay times of deep bass notes are truncated.
This premature ending of normal note decay times are more noticeable and annoying, of course, on certain types of instruments, certain types of music and in the deeper keys. The main point being your music will be audibly less natural and enjoyable, less so on most rock music than on other types of music in my experience.
What's a viable solution? I'd suggest you use a good quality but reasonably priced mono class AB sub amp like the Dayton SA1000 for about $300-400 from Parts Express or some other retailer, use a pair of good quality subs and optimally position each in your room, and in relation to your designated listening seat, by utilizing the 'sub crawl method' (which you can google for details).
Best wishes,
Tim |
blurion:"
Great discussion and I've learned a lot from this---some of you have commented that class Ds is good for better bass. Why is that? You wouldn't get good bass from class A or AB?"
Hello bluorion,
I suggest you read my last post on this thread from earlier today that covers this subject a bit.
In general, solid-state (ss) amps reproduce deep bass frequencies better than tube amps. A good indicator of an amp's bass reproducing ability is its Damping Factor, which basically measures its ability to control, or start and stop, the bass driver. The higher the number the better its control. Class D amps usually have much higher damping factors than the other amp types; class D amps can be rated in the low thousands, class A and AB are typically rated in the low hundreds and tube amps even lower.
Bass frequencies also require more current or power to reproduce than higher frequencies because the bass drivers typically have more
mass and, therefore, require more energy to start and stop.
There's also the matter of personal preferences in bass reproduction. For example, an apartment dweller may want to keep the bass down since bass sound waves can vibrate room boundaries(floor, ceiling and walls) and a portion of the in-room bass will be audible to the neighbors.
OTOH, some weirdos who live in houses, such as myself, even believe the accurate reproduction of the bottom 2 octaves in music, about 16-32 Hz, is the main quality that separates a decent home audio system from a very good one. Some of these complete whackos even utilize 4-sub distributed bass array (DBA) systems to achieve this ultra accurate and ultra realistic in-room bass reproduction. Weirdos!
Tim |
bluorion:"
@noble100 Thank you for that information---so would it make sense to add a class D power amp to a class AB integrated with a pre-out to get more power if needed? I realize that may sound weird but if you have a 100wpc integrated, for example, and need more power for a pair of low efficiency speakers, adding a 200+ wpc class D would be ok?" Hello bluorion, Yes, I believe that would work, however, it's not ideal and I think there are a few details you need to consider: 1. It's important to impedance match, which means ensuring the input impedance on the class D amp or amps you're using are at least 10x more than the output impedance of your integrated amp's pre-outs. 2. It's very important that you really love, not like, I said love the sound of the integrated amp's pre-out section because the majority of, if not virtually all, good quality class D amps are neutral in the extreme. Good quality class D amps, in general, are very low distortion and very low noise system components that you'll definitely perceive as not adding or subtracting virtually anything from the inputted signal or signals. The good ones function very much like the audio ideal of 'a straight wire with gain'. I know you stated you wanted to use the pre-out section of an integrated amp, in effect using the preamp section of the integrated amp as your preamp. But I don't recall you stating why you want to do this or which brand and model you own or plan to use. Can you please clarify? Tim |
bluorion: "
So now I have a Luxman 505UXii integrated with a pair of Dynaudio S40s as well as pair of Tekton Lore References. I alternate b/w the Dyns and the Lores depending on my mood and musical tastes. I love the Luxman but I at times I wish it had some more punch or something. I caught a video on YT recently that had a new Luxman connected to a Pass amp (I think)---I can't seem to find it now. Anyway, it got me thinking about higher output class Ds (like 200+ wpc) and wondered how that would go. I really appreciate everyone's input and suggestions." Hello bluorion, My opinion is that you already assembled a very good system, with a very nice class AB integrated Luxman 505UX ii and the choice of 2 very good pairs of efficient speakers that I would think are well matched and sufficiently powered by a high quality class AB 100 watts of power. From what I've read, Luxman amps are generally regarded as sounding well controlled, smooth, sweet but also detailed. Do you perceive your Luxman integrated as having these sonic traits? If so, and along with your comment about "wanting more punch or something", I'm thinking the combination of your amp and both of your high quality pairs of speakers may be too controlled, refined,smooth and polite for your preferences or tastes. Of course, only you can determine whether my impression is true or not. If this is the case however, I do believe combining the very good preamp section of your Luxman integrated amp with a high powered class D amp is likely to add more dynamic punch and impact to the overall sound of your system. I think this would be generally true utilizing either pair of you speakers but I can't be certain because I lack useful knowledge and experience with both. I'd suggest a very good and safe initial step would be to choose a high powered class D stereo or pair of monoblock amps, on a 30 day free in-home trial basis from a reputable online retailer, and give this possible solution an audition in your own room, system and with your own gear and music. I'd recommend you try a stereo or pair of mono amps from D-Sonic because I'm certain you'll be very pleased with their high quality performance. they offer 30 day free in-home trial periods with full no questions asked refunds, I know they're reputable, the owner, Dennis Deacon https://www.d-sonic.com/, is great to deal with and all their products are reasonably priced. I have no association with D-Sonic, btw, I'm just a very satisfied customer. I also wouldn't hesitate to use even substantially more power than 200 watts/ch with a D-Sonic class D amp or amps; the power is very clean with low distortion and noise, the amps automatically shut themselves down when any malfunction is detected and your speakers will function flawlessly well beyond their maximum power ratings as long as the power is clean. Speakers are damaged by high distortion and clipping, not by very high power. Best wishes, Tim |
lowtubes: "So the cheap inexpensive Crown amp worked well in a very expensive system. I tried the D-Sonic 800 watt amp and thought it was a product I can easily recommend. But it did not sound better in my system than my pure Class A 200 watt Threshold mono blocks."
Hello lowtubes,
So, the D-Sonic 800 watt amp sounded good in your system but not as good as your pure class A 200 watt Threshold monoblocks. Well, that begs a few questions you can, hopefully, answer:
1. Was the D-Sonic 800 watt unit a stereo amp?
2. What are the approximate price differences between these amps?
3. What are the approximate size differences between these amps?
4. What are the approximate weight differences between these amps?
5. What are the approximate electrical consumption differences between these amps at idle and full power?
6. Which of the amps wastes the most electricity by converting it to heat and, therefore, operates at a higher average temperature?
7. Is the single advantage of marginally better sound from the Threshold amps worth the many disadvantages represented by the answers to the other questions listed above?
Tim |
Hello bluorion,
The more I thought about your system needs and the more I thought about how much multiple subs improved my system's bass realism and bass dynamic punch, the more I think it's likely to be a very good solution/upgrade for your system.
The Swarm 4-sub system would provide near state of the art bass performance throughout your entire room and integrate seamlessly with virtually any type or model of main speakers that you use now or in the future. You'd just need to optimally adjust the level and crossover frequency controls on the supplied 1,000 watt class AB sub amp/control unit when you switch speakers.
A pair of REL or SVS SB-1000 subs would also provide very good bass performance at your designated listening seat. This option would be about $1,000 less expensive but you'd need to optimally position each sub in your room, and in relation to your designated listening seat, using the 'sub crawl method' (you can google it or I could explain it to you) and optimally set the volume level and crossover frequency controls on each sub, rather than once for all 4 subs on the Swarm's amp/control unit.
I think you'd probably like one of these bass sub solutions best because:
1. It would provide significantly improve your overall system bass power, extension, dynamics and impact.
2.
The bass will also sound faster, smoother, more detailed and well blended with your main speakers
3. You'll perceive the stereo sound stage image as being larger, more detailed and clearly defined as well as more 3 dimensional and real.
It's my opinion that one of these sub options will provide more overall dynamic punch to your system than the addition of a high powered class D amp. But, of course, it's your system and your choice.
Tim |
Hello georgehifi,
Hey, maybe douglas_schroeder has found your first class D amp?
If so, welcome to the club! But I think we're gonna need a bigger bandwagon.
Love,
Tim
XOX
|
I haven't heard much discussion on this thread thus far about the newer Bruno Putzeys designed Purifi Eigentakt class D modules that outperform his previously designed Hypex NCore NC-1200 modules, both in measured performance and subjective listening, according to this 6moons review linked to below: https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/purifi/ I think these modules are available to the DIY amp building community that previously often utilized the Hypex NC-400 modules, companies that configure or assembled these newer modules in modest custom cases for sale at reasonable prices just like they formerly did with the Hypex NC-400 modules and regular established OEM audio amp companies that previously used the Hypex NC-500 and NC-1200 modules in higher quality custom cases for sale at higher, typically $10,000/pair plus prices. In the 6moons review, Bruno Putzeys stated many of the established amp manufacturers like Rowland and others plan on using the Purifi modules in new upcoming top of the line models and continue to use the Hypex NC-500 and NC-1200 modules in current amp models, that will be then positioned as their 2nd and 3rd tier models.
I also haven't heard much discussion on this thread thus far about the newer
Orchard Audio BOSC, now renamed the Starkrimson. These class D modules/amps are interesting because they are offered for sale at only $1,500/pair, they're offered as either just modules for the DIY community or in very small and modest monoblock cases just like a normal finished audio component product, they measure extremely well and they utilize the newer, very fast switching, GaN output transistors. I believe Orchard Audio designs and builds their own proprietary class D modules and that these $1,500/pair monoblocks are currently the least expensive available class D amps utilizing GaN transistors.
Here's a link to a recent class D article on the Audio Express website that's titled "Fresh From the Bench: A Tale of Two Class-D Amplifiers Orchard Audio BOSC and Purifi Audio Eigentakt EVAL1": https://audioxpress.com/article/fresh-from-the-bench-a-tale-of-two-class-d-amplifiers-orchard-audio-... It's important to note that both of these modules are a further advancement of the currently available solid state and analog class D power modules technology that accept only analog signal inputs and have regular high-level speaker outputs . These need to be distinguished from the newer technology of digital class D amp modules that will accept only digital signal inputs and have high-level speaker outputs, which are typically referred to as 'power dacs'. These power dacs are likely to become more prevalent in the near future, possibly in new, non-traditional 'integrated' combinations of functions in a single chassis or even digital interconnects to speakers powered by one or more power dacs. Class D continues to improve at a relatively rapid pace
and new paradigm shifts are not only possible, I think they're probable. |
madavid0:
"
I don't think you guys really appreciate how deadly to euphonics that traditional class D output filter is. I didn't start out hating class D I developed that position after being burned many times being told this or that class D module was the revolutionary savior of the topology. I remain interested in GaNFET because it seems like that is what will finally be able to pull class D into the realm of quality audio."
Hello madavid0.
I believe the most prominent characteristic of the newer, good quality class D amps is neutrality, with no euphonics or anything else added or subtracted. In my experience, this high degree of neutrality is very revealing of everything upstream, even interconnect and power cable quality levels and differences are more easily detected.
I know that Bruno Putzeys, the inventor and designer of the Phillips ucd, Hypex Ncore and the most recently the Purifi class D modules, has stated that he has steadfastly maintained a goal of optimum neutrality in all his modules in order to appeal to the largest number of potential customers. Based on my experience, the designers of most other class D amp modules, such as TI, Anaview/Abletec and Pascal, have apparently maintained the same neutral presentation goal.
As to your statement "
I don't think you guys really appreciate how deadly to euphonics that traditional class D output filter is.", I don't know where you read this, why you believe it or what class D amps you've listened to, but it's definitely not true with my class D monoblocks. These are good quality units and, as I stated above, their primary characteristic is a completely honest neutrality, like the traditional audio ideal of a 'straight wire with gain'.
It is definitely true that this level of neutrality very distinctly and articulately portrays the quality level of both the recording and the music but there's absolutely no elimination or theft of 2nd or 3rd harmonics and euphonics taking place. If the music contains these euphonic qualities, and the recording is of sufficient quality to have captured them, then they are faithfully amplified and reproduced.
I happen to appreciate and prefer utilizing very neutral and revealing amps in my system while understanding that numerous others seem to prefer a bit of flavoring. However, I believe this is a topic best left for a separate thread.
Tim |
Hello mikem,
As I understand it, many class D power modules have traditionally had rising distortion levels as the frequency being reproduced increased. This is what led to these amps sounding a bit overly bright or harsh in the upper treble region and listener fatigue. I think this is what you were perceiving.
I believe the new Purifi class D power modules, designed by Bruno Putzeys, have claimed to have solved this problem by significantly reducing distortion in the upper treble region through the use of global negative feedback levels in excess of 35%. Figuring out how to successfully do this has proven to be a very difficult thing to do and is, therefore, considered a technology breakthrough.
However, I'm not an expert on this subject and make no claims of having a complete understanding of it. Actually, I find this whole topic a bit perplexing based on my class D experiences. For example, I use a pair of D-Sonic M3-600-M monoblocks in my system that are now over 6 yrs old and utilize Anaview/Abletec power modules that are at least as old technology wise. Why do these amps provide upper treble frequency performance in my system and with my main speakers that is, according to my perceptions, very detailed and revealing without ever sounding harsh or bright?
Do these amps or modules utilize some alternative method or technology to provide such high quality levels of performance? Perhaps I'm boasting a bit about the high quality performance levels of these amps, but the main factors influencing my inquiries are curiosity, a search for logical and reasonable explanations and the attainment of knowledge and understanding.
My suggestions for you, mikem, are that you are likely to find very good class D amp options in a new Purifi module based amp, a new or used D-Sonic amp or amps or even other high quality class D amps. As other experienced users have already mentioned, not all class D amps sound the same and I'm certain they all don't reproduce the upper treble frequencies in an overly bright, harsh or fatiguing manner.
Best wishes,
Tim
|
mikem:"
Thanks Tim.. Appreciate the response, but I’m not giving up my Inefficient, heavy Pass class A amp anytime soon.. It sounds too good and checks all the boxes that I find important in an amplifier, and it’s executed so very well. Appreciate the response and Happy Holidays !!"
Hello mikem,
No problem, I was never trying to talk you out of your excellent Pass amp or the very good performance of the class A topology in general. I was more thinking you may want a much cooler running amp, also with very good sound qualities, as an alternative for the warmer months.
Enjoy and Happy Holidays to you, too!
Tim
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Hello bluorion,
It seems like you'd like thread posters to focus their attention and advice to your original OP subject. Which I believe is that you're curious about whether your overall system sound quality and performance would improve by utilizing a good quality and high powered class D amp, or pair of monoblocks while using your Luxman integrated's preamp section. Here's my take:
In my experience and in general, high quality class D amps have a very neutral and detailed presentation, like the audio ideal of a 'straight wire with gain'. I believe this is mainly due to their inherent very low distortion levels, very low noise floors and voicing decisions made by the amp's designers, for example Bruno Putzeys, I think other high quality class D amp module desingners have followed Putzeys lead in prioritizing accuracy in their designs.
Some prefer this very neutral and accurate quality while others prefer a bit or more of coloration in their overall system sound. Audio enthusiasts have various terms for these preferred colorations, such as 'warmth' or bloom', but they all typically require the amp design to emphasize even ordered harmonics, which humans perceive as euphonic, and attenuate odd ordered harmonics, which humans perceive as not euphonic, in their designs It's also important to note that music itself can have varying degrees of euphonic qualities that we perceive. And that the accuracy or quality of the music recording/mixing process can also either enhance or detract from the music's inherent euphonic qualities we perceive.
Personally, I've discovered it's best to view overall system sound as a continuum from very accurate and neutral to not accurate and colored. I believe it's important to actually audition and experience different systems along this continuum to gain a better understanding of the differences in overall system sound qualities possible and which you prefer.
I apologize for the length of this post but I know, from a lifetime of personal experience, that finding and creating an overall system sound quality that you really enjoy is complex and full of subtle shades of gray in practice. I make no claims of simplicity in my journey or your possible journey.
Nevertheless, I do have a few suggestions that are likely to shorten and simplify your pursuit:
It's an asset to be adventurous and to not be overly hesitant to try new or different technologies, ideas or things in general.
I know I learn and understand best through personal experience, perhaps you do, too. Trying new and different things are a good way to not only discover what you like and enjoy, but also what you don't like and enjoy. A good example is your idea of combining the high quality preamp section of your Luxman integrated with a high powered and high quality class D stereo amp or pair of monoblocks.
From your earlier posted list, I would recommend you begin your journey by trying either a D-Sonic stereo amp (starting at $1,475) or pair of monoblocks (starting at $2,250/pair). I suggest you call the owner, Dennis Deacon, describe your idea and ask for his advice. He's a good guy, very knowledgeable and honest. I know his M3 amps are very good, with very detailed but smooth midrange and treble performance, because I own the M3-600-M monoblocks. He told me the newer M3a amps are even better but I appreciated his honesty in also stating the improvement over mine were subtle and probably not worth the expense of upgrading.
He offers a 30 day free-in home audition period with a no questions asked return policy, so there's literally no financial risk. I have no association with D-Sonic, I'm just a big fan.
Lastly, I want to mention that the quality and audible sonic characteristics of the preamp utilized with good quality class D amps is extremely important because these qualities are the major determinants of the overall sound quality perceived, since the D-Sonic amps are just going to faithfully amplify the inputted signals without adding or subtracting anything perceptible.
I can relate the very different overall sound quality presentations resulting from the different preamps I've utilized in my system with the D-Sonic monoblocks, ranging from a VTL 2.5L with NOS Mullard tubes swapped out to a few other solid state preamps, if you'd like.
Best wishes,
Tim |
Hello madavid0,
I have the D-Sonic M3-600-M monoblocks, their previous model that I bought about 6 years ago and that utilizes Anaview/Abletec class D power modules. D-Sonic's current model are the M3A-600-M monoblocks, that utilizes Pascal Pro2 power modules. These are the same modules that Jeff Rowland chose for his very expensive, but also very positively reviewed, Rowland Continuum 2 integrated amp.
The owner of D-Sonic, Dennis Deacon, told me years ago that he determined that neither of these modules requires an input buffer and that performance and sound quality didn't improve when he used one, so neither of these models use an input buffer. He also stated he was forced to source newer class D power modules in the M3 monos model because the prior Anaview/Abletec modules were discontinued. He said he chose to utilize the newer Pascal Pro2 modules because he thought they offered slightly better sq performance but, overall, they sounded very similar to the older Anaview/Abletec modules.
I'd suggest you consider either a used pair of M3 monos, if you can find a pair for sale, or a new pair of theM3A monos. I can state with certainty that neither of these amps have any of the deficiencies you described. In fact, I consider their exceptionally smooth and detailed midrange and treble performance, along with presenting a 3-D stereo sound stage illusion with very solid, stable and palpable images, as two of their main attributes.
While it's true that these are only two of the numerous positive attributes these amps possess, they're also two of my favorite and must have attributes in both a peamp and an amp. I definitely enjoy these qualities far too much in a home audio system to even consider buying any preamp or amp that lacked them.
Hopefully, your used Odyssey Kismet amp will also possess these qualities in spades.
Merry Xmas,
Tim
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bluorion: "So having a 30-day trial period is nice. W4S offers a 45 day trial---that was another one on my list. The ICs I'll be using with the amp will be Audioquest Big Surs. Do you recommend any particular brand with he D-Sonics? Again, thanks for the thoughtful posts."
Hello bluorion,
I've read good reviews on the W4S class D amps but have never personally listened to them. I'm much more comfortable recommending the D-Sonic M3 monos mainly because I've been using them for over 6 years now with 2 different pairs of main speakers, originally with Magnepan 2.7QRs and currently 3.7is, and they've performed exceptionally well on both. As far as I know, a comparable pair of W4S monoblock amps could perform just as well or even better than the D-Sonics. You'd probably need to home audition both with your Luxman to find out for certain.
If you'd like more than 30 days to audition the D-Sonic amps, I know if you call or email the owner, Dennis Deacon, and request a longer free in-home trial period, he typically extend the time period upon request.
Your Audioquest Big Surs are high quality cables and should perform very well as ics. I use custom balanced xlr cables as ics but I believe you'll need to use unbalanced rca cables due to the pre-out connections utilized on your Luxman. The D-Sonic amps offer a choice of inputs, balanced or unbalanced. with a switch also required to be set appropriately on the back of each amp.
Later,
Tim |
Hello phillyb,
I've shared, and continue to share, your enthusiasm for high end class D amplification for over 6 years now. Class D, in my experience, not only has the clear advantage over more traditional amp types in size, weight, operating temperature, relative cost and electrical efficiency, it also provides excellent overall sound quality results that are already very competitive with the other amps regardless of type or price. I also agree with you that this amp technology is still in its ascendancy.
My only hesitation in universally and fully recommending class D amplification to everyone, is the concern that not everyone seems to share our enthusiasm in its sound quality performance.
Many individuals have claimed for years that they perceive deficiencies in the sound quality performance of class D amps and some have even developed and promoted their own theories as to why, such as georgehifi's consistent proclamations that the class D carrier signal switching frequency is too low and needs to be north of 1 MHz to avoid sonic artifacts in the audible range.
The main issue has been the reality that I, and apparently many other class D amp lovers/users, have completely failed to notice any of these supposed sq deficiencies in their own varied and preferred class D amps. This has naturally resulted in users doubting the sincerity of the class D amp naysayers' claims of sq deficiencies.
Yes, virtually all agree that there were sq deficiencies in much earlier examples of class D amps but not on the numerous better examples produced within the last decade or so. The truth is that if class D amp users perceive none of these claimed sq deficiencies in their own amp's performance then, by definition, none exist since our perceptions literally are each of our realities.
I still believe it's important to keep an open mind, however, especially in this hobby. So, even though there remains a complete lack of legitimate scientific evidence supporting these supposed claims of deficiencies in the sq performance of class D amps, I still don't think it's wise to dismiss the remote possibility that these sq deficiencies actually do exist and that some individuals may be sincerely perceiving them.
After all, it's well known that there are gaps in scientific knowledge and that there's a high probability that important future discoveries will be made about the dynamic and technical forces involved in class D audio reproduction and perception. Perhaps, it will be discovered that some individuals are just more sensitive to certain yet to be identified and measured characteristic(s) of class D amplification.
Because of the above, I strongly suggest that anyone interested in the high quality sq performance and other benefits provided by a high end class D amp, should audition one prior to purchase to guarantee complete satisfaction.
Enjoy,
Tim |
Hello akgwhiz and klh007,
In looking back on my audio/video systems over the past almost 50 years and participating on this forum for the past 8 years, I realize I've learned a lot from reading but I believe I've learned just as much, if not more, from just being a bit adventurous and gaining more useful and relevant knowledge by seeking out audio and video experiences as much as I could.
As the hip and woke kids say today according to my addled, old man imagination:
"Get yer caboose off dat cushion and go for a good audition."
What does all this hipness have to do with the topic of tubes and class D amps on the previous 2 posts? Well, if you're curious, the best way to learn and experience the overall sound quality combination is to go for an audition, or take advantage of a free in-home trial period in your own system and room.
You be the sonic adventurer, learner and discoverer. There will be no need for verbal descriptions or using our less than accurate imaginations. You'll be able to very thoroughly know the actual sound quality results and make a very informed decision about whether or not you prefer a touch of coloration with your main dish character of very neutral typically delivered from a class D amp.
Best wishes,
Tim |
tweak1:
"
I have owned many different class D amps for over a decade. A few I would say would have benefited from a romantic tube somewhere in the system, BUT, D has gotten much better, especially in the high freqs, to where, IMHO, changing cables would be the better option. The Cable Company would be a good source to try a variety of cables
I have a Tweakaudio EVS 1200, which uses the same IcePower AS1200 modules as PS Audio M1200, but are highly tweaked by Tweakaudio. No tubes anywhere in my system, and it's very detailed without being edgy"
Hello tweak1,
You made a couple of excellent points I can tell came from personal experience:
1. Class D, in my experience, is so accurate and neutral that it facilitates the perceptions of how changes upstream in the system effects the overall system sound quality. This applies not only to more significant system changes, like the source components and the quality of the recordings themselves, but also down to smaller changes like in the ics and power cords utilized. In my opinion, this qualifies as very high quality transparency.
2. I've come full circle about my thoughts and perceptions of combining tubes with class D amps. I began by using a VTL 2.5L preamp with an expensive set of 4 NOS Mullard tubes swapped in for the standard Russian or Chinese ones. I used this for several years with my class D amps and liked it so much I thought I'd never take it out of my system.
But I happened to hear a Mark Levinson 326S ss preamp at a local hi-end shop. I was so impressed with its performance, especially the amazingly real stereo sound stage image it presented, that I bought a used one and tried it out in my system.
Well, the midrange and treble sounds just as sweet and euphonic as the VTL with NOS tubes and the palpably realistic stereo sound stage illusion the ML presents was just too good to resist. So, I sold the VTL to a friend and I haven't regretted it since.
So I've come full circle from thinking I had to have tubes somewhere in my system to discovering that my system without tubes can sound even better. The only qualifier is that it took a very good and expensive preamp to top the tubed VTL.
My current opinion is that tubes combined with a class D amp usually results in very good overall sound quality. But I also agree that the quality of the midrange and treble performance, on good quality class D amps, has generally improved to such a degree that tubes may no longer be needed. As usual, it'll probably come down to the specific and unique amp/preamp combination utilized.
Thanks,
Tim
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It's my understanding that efficiency has been the primary advantage and raison d'etre of class D amps since the get go. Their further efficiencies in weight, size and cost are just peripheral advantages.
Their further relatively constant improvements in performance and sound quality are, in strictly technical terms, just 'friggin breasts'!
Tim
|
I’m with twoleftears, I’m always up for a thorough discussion on all the class D amps that owners think are noteworthy. I’m very satisfied currently with my 6 year old pair of D monoblocks but I’m constantly curious about the latest examples and I’m very interested in reading about opinions on them, whether from owners or those that have personally auditioned them.
I became a member here back in 2013, and if I recall correctly, that’s about the time that the newer, very high quality class D amps began becoming available. At that time, I remember there were a lot of forums from owners of various brands of these very high efficiency, small, lightweight and relatively affordable class D amps that were being extolled as also offering very good full frequency range performance.
These claims of very good full frequency range performance seemed to be a major point of disagreement on the forums at that time. The class D naysayers were typically proclaiming they were only suitable for bass amplification, sterile midranges lacking body along with bright and fatiguing treble.
Even as long ago as 2013, the class D amp advocates were proclaiming many of the latest D amps were much improved, powerful, dynamic with high quality full range performance, including the vary important midrange and treble frequencies, in their systems with a variety of speakers.
After reading many of these early forum discussions on the merits of class D amps, I was a bit perplexed and frustrated. Were these amps as good as described by many? Why was there such a polarization of viewpoints, with avid opinions on both pro and con explanations? Were these class D amps, being examples of newer advancements applied to a somewhat older technology, any good or not?
I finally realized I was unlikely to receive any objective answers to my questions by simply reading Audiogon and other audio forums about them. So, I decided I needed to just pick out a reasonably well performing and priced class D amp, purchase it on a free 30 day in-home trial basis and determine the technology’s viability for myself in my own system and room.
I bought my initial class D amp, a Class D Audio SDS-440-CS high powered stereo unit from a company in California, based on its generally favorable reviews and reasonable $540 price. To state I was impressed by this relatively small and lightweight amp would be a serious understatement. It easily outperformed my 2 prior decent quality and high powered class AB amps, an Aragon and a McCormack, in driving my Magnepan 2.7QR main speakers I used at that time.
So I finally had my answer, even a budget class D amp performed very well in my own, very important just to me, opinion. I was definitely impressed, but somewhat unexpectedly, this only made me more curious about the practical applications of this new to me class D technology. As a result, I fairly quickly decided to purchase a few more D amps to see just how good higher priced and quality examples might perform. I next bought a stereo Emerald Physics EP100.2SE unit and then a pair of monoblock D-Sonic M3-600-M amps.
My main points? The D-Sonics are the best performing class D amps I’ve used to date, Just like twoleftears, however, I’m still curious about new advancements in class D amp technology in general and I welcome any reasonable forum discussions on the subject.
I also suggest, for any others uncertain about the performance level provided by class D amps in general, that individuals don’t rely on taking mine or anyone else’s opinion on the topic.
Instead, I recommend individuals take advantage of one of the numerous class D amp company offers, of no risk free in-home trial periods, and just decide on the merits of the class D amp or amps for themselves.
Tim
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cakyol:"
Most hi end class D amps pretty much use the Danish company ICEpower class D amplifiers. Bang & Olufsen also used to use them. I dont know if they still do, but they are all ok. They are extremely efficient & space saving." Hello cakyol, I don't know where you received your information leading to your posted comments quoted above, but most of your comments are dated and, currently, demonstrably false. Did you just wake up from a decade long sleep? The B&O ICE class D power modules were popular about a decade ago but were never considered hi-end, relative to other more traditional amp types, because of their poor upper frequency performance. Ice modules represent an evolutionary progression stage when class D amps Actually Were only good enough for sub amps. I don't recall any ICE module based class D amp ever generally being considered hi-end. You are correct, however, that B&O is and was a Danish company. When Bruno Putzeys worked at Philips Applied Technologies Lab in Belgium prior to 2005, he invented the UcD (universal class D) class D circuit. As I understand it, these were the first class D power modules generally considered to have very good midrange and treble performance and are the first to be generally considered to provide hi-end performance. Bruno Putzeys has stated his design accomplished this high quality full frequency performance through the use of very high levels of negative feedback. Bruno Putzeys left Philips in 2005 to form a new class D company, named Hypex, along with another partner. While there, he invented the Hypex NCore series of class D power modules that utilized even further increases in negative feedback to even further elevate the performance level of these power modules and the class D amps incorporating them. Bruno Putzeys latest venture was to form a new class D company, Purifi, with cofounder Lars Risbo. This company has just begun introducing their initial class D power modules which are expected to further incrementally raise the performance bar of this very rapidly improving technology. Here are links to a good article about Purifi and to to Purifi's official website: https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/bits-and-bytes/purifi-audio-and-the-audiophile-style-readers-qa-with-... https://purifi-audio.com/about/ For a more accurate and truthful summary of hi-end class D in general, I think it's important to realize that there are no monopolies in hi-end class D technology. Concurrently with the development of high quality class D power modules from Philips' UcD, Hypex's NCore and Purifi's new modules, other companies have also been developing and improving their own class D technology and offerings. These companies include Pascal, Anaview/Abletec as well as Merrill Audio and, expected in the near future, even an offering from reputed tube company Atmasphere. The current state of hi-end class D amplification is very good and its future looks even brighter. Tim |
I've actually grown to like georgehifi and consider him similar to an old dog that's just become a fixture around the Audiogon shop.
Sure, he barks at predictable times about predictable topics, grudgingly respects and roots for class D while constantly throwing shade on it, poops inside the house a bit too often, probably has fleas and is generally about as useful as nipples on a male mouse. But aren't these some of the qualities that make him so endearing and lovable, too?
Tim
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I can't help respecting and admiring douglas_schroeder's intelligent approach of reserving final judgement on class D and atmapshere's intelligence, experience, knowledge and strange preoccupation with the upper knees of Sigmoid curves.
Whatever floats your boat, right?
Tim
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tweak1:"
I believe Underwood HiFi is rounding the bend and heading for home with their 200wpc Voyager, which I think will be < $4000"
Hello tweak1,
Just for the record and clarity, it's 'rounding 3rd and heading/headed for home' in baseball parlance and 'she'll be coming around the bend when she comes' in the song. Mixing these together is lame, but ultimately, probably not really worth my effort of posting and clarifying.
You're welcome,
Tim
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As I stated, I knew it wouldn't be worth my effort.
But I do love you all anyway,
Tim
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