Helping a friend build a new system

Now I see, “ no class D,” and he’s locked into tubes.  Bob Carver has the best bang for the buck in tube amps an

In that size room you need to budget some money for room treatments. In the same sized room I use the lowest cost GIK Acoustics panels for $700 + $200 shipping from GA to CA.

I discovered something recently about the room acoustics that has allowed me to not use my DSP anymore. I was surprised I cold get away with this but it was luck that I found this out. I added a $200 acoustic panel in front of my CD rack and moved another reflective surface away from another side wall.

Without the treatments, even my KEF LS50's overpowered the room. Now I use bigger floorstanders in the same room with the acoustic treatments.

A word of caution about the VTL ST85.  Ive owned one for about 10 years.  It produces a lot of power for an amp based on  4 EL34’s but it’s rough on power tubes.  (I always bias correctly.).   I turned it on yesterday and one EL34 redplated and it blew a B+ fuse.  Now that channel sounds a little off so its off to Roy Mottram for an inspection.

T

Unreceivedogma has a good idea in buying a Dynaco 70.  This is a good beginners tube amp.  Tubes4hifi have bern rebuilding and modifying these amps for decades.  Their rebuilt & custom built Dynaco 70 ampsate essentially brand new amplifiers.

The VTL ST85 is not the warmest sounding tube amp.  Its sound is very similar to a good solid state amp except in lower frequencies where it is inferior to a good solid state amp.  I have read in this forum that customer service is not good though I have not used such myself.

i would agree that fritz speakers should be seriously considered, as they are easy to drive, tube amp friendly and in a small room, can present music fairly full range or close to it (always can add a rel sub later if the listener feels he wants a more solid bass foundation)... remember, close to walls, small room means bass reinforcement from the boundaries - win/win! :)

fritz's carrera be's and https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649769956-ayon-orion-ii-tube-integrated-amplifier/ - or any of the other used integrated i posted earlier would be very nice together

The Spendor 4/5 is worth looking into. I have owned the Spendor 3/5 R2 and it was an outstanding shoe box size speaker! Here is a review!
https://www.avforums.com/reviews/spendor-classic-s4-5-standmount-speaker-review.18041

If possible have him audition some systems of the kind he wants in rooms of similar acoustics to choose the parts of the system that sound best to him. Gone are the days when anyone could save up and afford "the best" expensive such as McIntosh or Marantz which cost the most but unlike today do not cost as much as half a million dollars for "the best" most expensive that goes far beyond the point of diminishing returns of what people who are honest with themselves can hear rather than imagine through placebo effect. That one can build a system almost nobody could begin to afford sets us free to try out more approaches to putting together a system where "You get what you pay for," might not be true, e.g. speaker cables costing over $20,000 a pair.
What sounds "best" is not the same for any two people.

He has already pulled the trigger on the VTL I-85. I am a little concerned about the supposedly horrendous customer service from this company though. Well, it is done now ... too late at this point. 

@avitacom --

Its sound is very similar to a good solid state amp except in lower frequencies where it is inferior to a good solid state amp.

I talked to a couple of folks who have owned the newer version of the IT-85 and their impressions were just the opposite, i.e. tube-like sound in the upper frequencies and midrange (holographic, big, lush, etc.), but better bass than most tube amps due to its healthy wattage. Is it possible that VTL has made improvements in the new model? Anyways, it goes to show how everyone hears differently based on system synergies and listening habits. The good news is that as he continues his speaker search, I will get to try it out in my main and secondary systems in the meantime. I can compare it to other amps I have in the house -- Qualiton a50i and Moonriver 404. I recently sold the Blackhawk but it has not been that long (3 weeks) so hopefully I can do some comparisons albeit not side by side.

So top speaker contenders at this point ...

1. Fritz Carrera BE 
2. Spendor 4/5 
3. Harbeth P3ESR or M30.1

My friend has been reading about Klipsch Heritage line and is interested in Heresy IVs. Personally, I have never been impressed with Klipsch, but then again I have never heard them in my own system. Considering his goals, i.e. an intimate and cozy experience, close to front wall, etc., do you guys think Heresy's play in the same league as the top contenders in the list?

To your last question: no.

Of the three, can't got wrong with any, but Fritz offers best bang for the money (aka price/performance quotient).

My VTL ST85 is probably 12+ years old as I bought it used.  So the new, integrated VTL may well have a different sound.  During the 10 years I’ve owned it I’ve gone through three or four quads of power tubes and I believe this is related to the large amount of power these amps produce.  For comparison, a Dynaco 70 produces 35 watts/ch with the same power tube complement.  I would advise your friend to learn to bias the power tubes himself and do this frequently.

I was using the VTL driving tweeters in a bi-amped system until I swapped it for a Carver 275 and I much prefer the sound of the Carver and the maintenence, relatively speaking, of the latter, is zero.

I would caution against the Klipsch Heresy in that room. Before going with Vandersteen VRL CT, I purchased the sealed Heresy III. It seemed like it should be a good match for the room with the ability to place near the wall, and controlled directivity of the tweeter to minimize room interactions. I had it on the long wall of my 11 x14 room. It is very forward sounding, leading to quick fatigue listening in the near to midfield. And sitting too close with them on the floor led to a compressed vertical dimension of images. My Heresys are now being used in a loft in a home theater setup.
Certainly he could get a used Heresy for $1000-$1500 to try it out for himself in his room, and sell off if he doesn’t. If he buys new, they require a lengthy break in of at least 200 hours. The new IV is rear ported, so it should be pulled out more than 1 foot from the wall.
I really think he would be happy with Fritz. Have not heard them myself, but highly regarded at audio shows as a well balanced speaker. Have seen a picture of some speaker stands with casters used with the Harbeth P3ESR, allowing them to be easily wheeled out 3-4 feet from the wall for nearfield listening. Sorry, but I do not recall the name of the manufacturer. They would require a subwoofer, and the footprint of that room is small so space is at a premium if he is also using as a home office. He could get by without a subwoofer with the Fritz and Spendor, with proper positioning for room gain in the bass frequencies.
My 2 cents

While it doesn’t have brand name recognition, the Watkins Generation IV recommended earlier is a helluva speaker per Dick Olsher (a tube equipment reviewer) for 2K new, and is sensitive enough to be easily driven by the VTL IT-85. Would leave money left over for MHDT Orchid DAC and perhaps a Bluesound Node streamer. 

@dcevans -- I have no doubt that the Watkins are awesome speakers, but the problem with lack of brand recognition is that you take a bath when if you don't like it and want to sell it. Fritz, Spendor, and Harbeth are safer bets, especially if bought used.

So let me ask a hypothetical question ...
Say if one can buy a used Harbeth M301. (around $3k), or used P3esr (around 2K), would you get these or spend money on a new Fritz Carbon or Carrera?

^^^My Money is on Harbeth M301 or P3ESR. If you buy new Fritz and don’t end up liking them, you will take a 30%-40% depreciation whereas one should recoup close to 90% to 95% of what you paid for used Harbeth M301 or P3ESR.

Your friends preferences hits all my buttons. My room is a bit bigger but with 8’ ceilings. Similar taste in music. Cozy and intimate rather than big and loud.Over 50 years I’ve had it all (within my budget): Altec Lansing VOT, JBL 100, B&O, FMI, Phase Technology, Magnapan; tons of tube amps starting with a ST-70 built from a kit, PAS 3x, Bryston, SAE, Marantz, NAD, Cambridge Audio, Parasound just to touch some bases. I’m 64 now, and a bit more settled in my ways (well, at least as far as equipment goes). Here’s what I settled on:
Harbeth P3esr
Sound Anchors
Odyssey Khartego (modified, of course)
Odyssey Candela (tubes!)
Blue Jean Cables
I don’t have one, but a Bluesound Vault would be a nice front end, or just a Node.
Plenty of high-end grunt on the cheap with the Khartego (plus Klaus is a hoot). Perfect match for the P3s (at 6 ohms they need a bit more current than most speakers, ditto for the 83db sensitivity and the power requirements). Tell Klaus what you are doing and he will hook you up (after a while).
Candela: I was so impressed with the Khartego I bought the Candela to go along with it. Quite satisfied, but there’s plenty of choices in the tube pre-amp world - maybe start with some cheap but really good sounding Schiit.
Stands: just pony up for the Sound Anchors and forget about it.
Cables: Blue Jeans work fine. Go from there.
Speakers: STOP THE PRESS! For the purposes stated in the OP these are simply amazing. If I were to recommend just one component on my list above all others (for the stated purposes) I would start and stop with the P3esrs.
I didn’t add it all up, but you’ll be somewhere near your budget, plenty of room to goof with tubes and cables, and speakers that are clever at everything and small enough to pull into your room if you want a near-field experience.

@arafiq 

On sound alone either of the Fritz's and I own both Carrera's and C7's.  

Well, looks like like your friend bought the I-85. Great tube amp but moving in the wrong direction. Most of the great sounding stand mounts have low sensitivity, and require a bit more oomph. If he wants to go the big box/paper cone/horn loaded route and raise the dead, he’s on the right track. I can’t help but think the BBC monitor route (Harbeth, Spendor) might suit his described listening habits better (maybe add a ST85 - now that would be something but there goes the speaker budget).
Sounds like Heresy’s coming in!

brother in law has the VTL ( newer version ) about 2 years now, bought used. Runs his Dynaudio Special 40 just fine in a room 2x your buddy. RAM Tubes EL-34 advised.

Any competent tube tech can service the VTL.

Hi- Fritz here...  Regarding Lalitks coment, all of my speakers come with a 30+ day trial thing to make sure that everybody is absolutely delighted with their performance on their gear and acoustic environment.  BTW-  Most people love them and keep them.   

Folks—he has already bought the VTL integrated.  Let us help him from here !!!!!  The Harbeth P3-ESR is the classic small room speaker.  So called pipe and slippers. I will be honest and say I have never heard them, but pair them with a REL T7i sub and I think you are set. Get some stands that allow them to be be moved easily from the front wall, you are set. 

I still would be tempted to go with Fritz

I mean, who wants to move their speakers every time they enter the room and want to listen?

You’ve spent a lot on amplification and if his VTL 85 is like mine , it produces 85 watts into 5 ohms, meaning about 70 into 8 ohms, so you’re going to need a speaker with an SPL of 90 IMO, so given what you’ve got left to spend are you stuck with a Klipsch Heresy III or IV?

I love 2 way speakers. They disappear and image like no other. They are the biggest bang for the buck in my opinion. I have my sights on a Stenheim Alumine 2 SE as my end game speaker. The Fritz Carrera Be punches way above its weight class. Probably rivals a Joseph Audio Pulsar from what I have I read. I live in Rapid City SD and have not heard most or not all of the speakers that are on your list ( I have heard Spendor Classic speakers and was underwhelmed). We are in a COVID world and I have been on the front lines as a hospitalist physician. I wanted to attend RMAF this year, but alas it has been cancelled. So take what I say with a grain of salt. But I would jump on Fritz’s 30 day trial with no hesitation.

@dcevans thanks for your service to humanity

Thank you tomic601. I know we have a mutual appreciation of Vandersteen. 

Since Fritz has weighed in, perhaps he could comment on the ideal positioning of his speakers?

I would recommend the Rogue Sphinx and a pair of wharfedale speakers (diamond 225's, dentons, Lintons, etc....). All will give him a sweet and warm intimate sound. The Sphinx is a bargain and is now in its 3rd iteration, V3. Have him read the reviews of both the Sphinx and the wharfedale 225's, sterephile magazine's Herb Reichert. This pairing in particular will provide great sound for way under his budget. This will leave much room for a new cd player, maybe a streamer/dac, and possibly a very good turntable if so inclined....

is that you take a bath when if you don't like it and want to sell it.

To experience a major financial loss; also, to fail miserably. This slangy cliché dates from the first half of the twentieth century and originated in gambling. It transfers cleaning oneself in a tub to being cleaned out (see take to the cleaners). It appeared in BusinessWeek on October 27, 1975: “Our profits won’t make up for the bath we took last fall and winter.” In the alternative sense, the University of Tennessee’s newspaper, the Daily Beacon, stated, “As . . . Sen. Robert Dole put it, the GOP ‘took a bath’ in elections for the U.S. House” (Nov. 4, 1982).

Well I'll be, another American idiom I've learnt. Most commonly used in Australia is to lose your shirt.

I’m reading that Vandersteen 1Ci have a sensitivity rating of 90 and are very reasonably priced.

I’m a Vandersteen fan, and think the VLR would be a better choice room-wise. The 1Ci should be pulled out at least 3 feet into the room to sound great. The VLR or used Treos could be placed 1 foot from the front wall (your friend’s requirement) without compromising the soundstage and imaging to a significant degree. Given the small size of the room, I think the 60 watts of the VTL-IT85 should be more than adequate to drive them to decent SPLs. I love my VLR CTs for my den/library system. They are nearly double the price of the VLR Wood (up-charge for the carbon tweeter).

You guys are awesome! 

BTW, he bought a used VTL I-85 model (newer version) at a very reasonable price, so we still have about $3-4K left for speakers and stands. We have added Vandersteen to the list, although I have no idea what the sound characteristics are like and how it compares to Harbeth or Fritz.

Another speaker company which I'm surprised no one mentioned is Proac. I heard one of their standmounts (I believe it was Response D2) a few years ago, but found it to be a bit forward and energetic for my taste. But this doesn't necessarily mean my friend will not like them either. I'd love to hear from someone who has compared Proacs and Harbeths, or Fritz for that matter.

@tomic601 -- After hearing about poor customer service and potentially short tube life of VTL, I was feeling guilty for leading my friend down the wrong path. It's good to hear your brother-in-law is having some success with it. If you have heard it yourself, do you mind sharing your thoughts regarding sound quality? Is it really more SS-like and lacking low end grunt as a few have mentioned earlier?

@arafiq

as you know, the key in system building is understanding the nature of the specific components and then gathering pieces that synergize - this is perhaps the most true in matching speakers with amps

yes proacs and speakers of its ilk can be bright and forward, if used with the wrong amps - so one needs to know how specific speaker lines are/were developed... i have been a proac fan since the 90’s when they burst onto the scene (just love them, still have 4 pairs)... stewart tyler (r.i.p) voiced all response series proacs with audio research tube amps (v70 vt50 vt100 series in the day), so that is what they absolutely shine with, and driven by good tube amps like those they have no harshness or forwardness, just oh so sweet music, oh so real and tactile vocals, excellent full range response huge precise image ... i would venture to say that fritz speakers (i have a pair of carrera be’s) with be tweeters are much the same

(incidentally focals, magico etc in the modern day have also gone with such highly resolving tweeters but they then build the rest of the speaker wrong for tube amps, with 4 ohm or lower impedance, so those speakers are no-win situations with most tube amps, and then, with all but the very expensive, very best solid state amps they are too forward tonally, and soundstage is flat)

conversely, as you also know, harbeth/a shaw voices his speakers with big hegels, so c7’s p3’s super 5’s are best off with similar, ultra smooth high grade solid state, as they have the subtle treble sparkle, bass driver control and current delivery ability that the harbeths with radials are best with

i have never have had little stand mount vandy’s but traditionally, floor standing vandy’s need power, plenty of it, unless you go for the very top ones with built-in self driven woofer/subwoofer sections

hope this helps

Yes brother in law has the newer version, coming off Odyssey Khatargo SS amp and Candela pre. He as i suspect bought a low hour trade for half of retail. My sense is they sink to about that level and flatline, if it does not impress it, flip.

I probably have 20 hours listening to it on Vandersteen 1ci ( in a 10 x 10’ phone booth and now special 40 w single REL in a much larger space… I think Treo is his next stop but who knows ? 

in his system; MoFi Untradeck, Ortofon Bronze, Nova III phono, PS Audio Dac, Dynaudio…it leans slightly romantic but not sterile or tuby. My only beef w Integrated is the steps on remote volume are big.

a good dealer to chat w is John Rutan at Audio connection in NJ, he has  Vandy and ProAc.

@jjss49 -- well said, and I agree with everything you've said. It has been a few years since I listened to the Proacs Response D2s at a dealer. I remember that they were driven by Audio Research separates but can't recall the exact model. I still found them too forward for my taste. That same day I also listened to Sonus Faber Olympica 1 with the same equipment and fell in love with the sound. What I've learned though is that sometimes you just don't know until you bring the speakers home. One of these days, I am going to buy a used pair of Proac Response to compare with my Harbeth 30.1s in the home office. It's just that the 30.1s do so many things right that I just can't bring myself to sell them to try out something else. But you never know. I might snap up a pair of used Proac Response D2 or Fritz Carrera BE if they every show up in the used market.

You are absolutely right about synergy. Last summer when I was auditioning speakers for the main system, I listened to a pair of Proac D48Rs at a local seller's house. He was driving them with some PS Audio equipment. I had never heard such lackluster sound coming from such imposing speakers. It was obviously not my place but I wish I could have told him to try them with some decent tube amplification. 

@tomic601 -- thank you for the feedback. I really hope my friend likes the VTLs. If it were up to me I would have asked him to do some more research, but I guess he found something about the VTLs very appealing and pulled the trigger. Hopefully, he won't regret the decision, But like you said, it should not be difficult to off load them if it comes to that. Personally, I would have preferred that he had bought the speakers first. Oh well ....

welcome to audio consulting !

@kahlenz -- couldn't agree with you more regarding Harbeth P3esrs. I had them in my system for almost two years and absolutely loved the sound. These speakers are sort of like an acquired taste. When I first got them I was using KEF LS50 Ws and it was quite a difference. A difference which at first I did not appreciate. But once I put on about 100 hours on the P3esr's and got used to their sound, there was no going back to the KEFs. I upgraded to M30.1s a few months ago, but the P3s will always have a special place in my heart. I don't think any speaker does vocals like these little guys can, not even the more expensive M30.1s. The way they just disappear and draw you into the music is just out of this world.

The P3esr's were in fact my first recommendation to my friend. But the thing is that he really wants to try out tubes, and I feel that P3esr's really need some SS juice to get going.

The suggestion above to visit with John Rutan at Audio Connection in Verona NJ is a great one. I think he might steer you towards ProAc with the tube integrated, as he seems to favor solid state with Vandys unless you feed them much higher tube watts (e.g., Quicksilver tube monos at 180 wpc). 

The best value in the lower regions of the ProAc range is the Response DT8, but unfortunately that's a floor-stander.

Given the limitations, I still think Fritz is the best way to go.

@dcevans -- my friend and I really appreciate all the advice. And thank you for being on the front line looking out for all of us. I have two cousins who are in the same profession as you. So many folks do not realize the dedication, hard work, and enormous risks that physicians and nurses, and their families take every day. Thank you!

@twoleftears -- My friend has been researching Fritz speakers and really like the Carrera BE model. The problem is that there are none that are available in the used market at the moment. He can buy new, but if he ever decides to try something else (outside the 30 day trial window), he's going to lose money one way or another. I've bought and sold used Harbeth speakers and never lost a dime. We'll continue to search the used gear sites for Fritz Carrera or Proac.

VTL IT-85 is in the house! Since my friend hasn't bought the speakers yet, we've been testing it with my Harbeth M30.1s since this afternoon. I have to say this amp sounds absolutely sublime! No problem driving the 30.1s. The midrange is just exquisite on this amp ... it has the EL34 liquid smooth magic for sure! We were worried that this amp might be overly romantic or lush, but it's very balanced throughout the range. Vocals are quite good as well.

And yes, it is quite a bit better than the Blackhawk or the Moonriver 404. Has that big juicy room filling tube sound but without the bloat or even a hint of mushiness. Another thing we like is that it sounds excellent at low volume, no loss of detail or presence. My friend is saying that this is exactly what he had in mind when said 'intimate and cozy'.

This also goes to show how good the 30.1s are. These speakers definitely scale as you feed them a better signal. I must say this is the best I've heard them sound ... although, I've never tried them with my other amp, Audio Hungary a50i. Maybe I should.

The problem is that he now wants to buy my M30.1s too. We'll see about that.