Help me make a decision! Turntable overload
you should buy used IMO just doing a quick search on here. https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis94d50-oracle-alexandria-mkii-turntables https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis93edh-rega-p3-upgrades-turntables https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis9437b-sota-moonbeam-turntable-turntables few good tables for your budget or close to it. |
I am not fond of Rega, having owned a Planer 3 back in the 90's. I wouldn't buy anything made by Onkyo. I sold Onkyo equipment back in the 70's and 80's and never care d for them. The Pioneer PLX1000 has gotten excellent reviews. That is the one I would go with. If you are new to vinyl, buy brand new with a warranty. |
Thinking my budget for the TT is $700... Look for Technics SL-10 turntable with built-in MC phono preamp and Linear tracking tonearm! Some of them comes with Technics p-mount 205 mk4 cartridge (or with Technics 310 MC). It's not a plastic toy, it's a heavy turntable with great cartridge. |
Not really feeling vintage... If it were immaculate, maybe. I would prefer to buy new, or old stock NIB And I have a Phone PreAmp. Hopefully a decent one https://www.crutchfield.com/p_252TBBXDSB/Pro-Ject-Tube-Box-DS.html?tp=204&awcp=1t1&awcr=1903... |
For cartridge selection, you must settle on what turntable you want to buy first. The tonearm specs will dictate the compliance and mass of the cartridge, narrowing the field down from infinity to a few dozen in your price range. Keep in mind that indie, electronic and hiphop set the bar very low for sound quality, so even a $50 Best Buy crap turntable will do. For Classic Rock and Jazz, you want a cartridge that has great dynamics and soundstage over the full range. If those are your defining formats, and you need a medium to high compliance cartridge, the Audio Technica VM540ML will do very nicely. But as I said, you must choose your turntable first. |
Lets say the Pioneer PLX 1000 / Pro-Ject Tube Box DS PreAmp / Sony 2ch 100w/8ohm Amp / Infinity Kappa 8.1's Speakers. AudioQuest Golden Gate Cables and Legend Audio Bi-Wire Speaker Cables. And lets say that I will do critical listening and have a pretty good ear. My musical interests run the gamut but lets set the bar at Pink Floyd, Radiohead, Smashing Pumpkins, Lana del Rey, Tori Amos, Miles & Coltrane... The EDM I reference is more Electronic than Dance: Banks, Tove Lo, Zhu, Chet Faker, etc I also love Reggae! Now what Cartridges should I be honing in on??? :) |
Wow that Black is spendy! Is it really that difficult to setup? I skimmed through a few threads and it sounds hit or miss - all coming down to proper setup. I only plan to buy NEW 180 gram records and take very good care of them so that should help with some of the surface noise issues - but I'm still unsure. Its been fun collecting, already up to 37 albums and I don't even have a TT! :0 I have no experience in this arena. I’m a handy guy, but maybe I should start out with the Bronze... Appreciate the help everyone - keep it coming please. I’m a sponge! |
That being said it’s not very difficult it’s just about making sure you are thorough and take your time. Okay I'm back in! I'm methodical and thorough, and a researcher - drives my wife nuts because it takes me forever to make decisions lol. If I were to get an ortofon bronze or black, I need the whole Pnp assembly right? something like this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ortofon-2M-Bronze-PnP-MM-Moving-Magnet-Cartridge-incl-Stylus/232904358573 Also, would the Black have a longer lifespan over the Bronze, being a diamond and all...? |
I see why people don't like Rega Planer 3; it doesn't sing until after you do all the tweaks, but does it sing? I forgot how much money because that was over a period of time, replacing the tone arm wire was tricky and required a bit of skill, but that was the biggest improvement; beside the motor of course. Nevertheless, after all of the tweaks, it's no longer a Planer 3, and I wouldn't trade it or sell it. |
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For the Pioneer truntable you can buy the best Pioneer MM cartridge ever made (vintage one), designed for Pioneer Exclussive series of turntables, those old Pioneer Exclussive easily goes for $10 000 today. The cartridge on my picture is Pioneer PC-1000 mkII and it’s a giant killer MM (Beryllium Cantilever, Nude Elliptical tip). Unfortunately new Pioneer turntable is not as good as the old Pioneer turntables. Look for the Pioneer PL-70 II Vintage MM cartridges from the golden era are much better than many modern MC and definitely better than modern MM. |
I just pulled the trigger a few hours ago on the Pioneer PLX 1000 $699 to my doorstep w/ one year warranty. I'm really excited, but now that I made THAT decision, I have to make another one on the Cart... I think I will forgo the Ortofon Black as my "first cartridge" and am leaning toward the Ortofon Bronze right now. Anyone want to talk me out of it? I'd say my budget is $500. And my Preamp will tolerate MC so if its in my budget and sounds good...? |
You should get the specs of the tonearm and use the vinylengine calculator to see what mass cartridges are a good match for your arm to yield a resonance in the green section (ideally ~9-12hz). If you are confused by my comment please don't rush on your decision. Read up, bro! Or you could get a great cartridge that's a poor match for you arm. Somebody mentioned a Denon 103R being a good match w/his PLX1000, if the math works, that's a well known workhorse with great pace, punchy bass and decent performance overall. Some like Zu Audio have modded them by replacing the body with wood or metal and those have a lot of fans. They are in your target price range. Hana is another brand with a number of models close in price (one should match your arm) and seem to be great values as a newer company trying to build a reputation. Cheers, Spencer |
I'm having a hard time finding the effective tone arm mass... this is all I can find: Arm typeUniversal type S-shape tone arm, gimbal-supported type bearing structure, static balance type Effective length230 mm Overhang15 mm Tracking errorWithin 3° Arm height adjustment range6 mm Stylus pressure variable range0 g to 4.0 g (1 scale 0.1 g) Proper cartridge weight3.5 g to 13 g (single cartridge) – When shell weight is used: 3.5 g to 6.5 g – When only balance weight is used: 6.0 g to 10 g – When sub weight is used: 9.5 g to 13 g Sounds like I can put almost anything on it? I am quite interested in the Denon 103R. Not sure how I'm going to be able to hear a side by side comparison (although I'm looking for a shop). Can anyone try to describe the differences between the Denon 103R MC and the Ortofon Bronze MM for me? I read that MC are superior to MM, but why? |
Pioneer tonearm designed for modern mid compliance cartridges, definitely not for extremely low compliance MC like Denon (which require superheavy tonearms), people never learn the basics. The superiority of the budget MC over MM is a myth, seems like you know nothing about cartridges. At least you should know that Denon 103R has a conical tip (the worst diamond profile ever which can not extract the musical information from the record grooves) and it must be re-tipped every 300 hrs. Zu Audio and related companies are not cartridge manufacturers, but the Denon is cheap MC designed in the 60’s that can be upgraded by third-party to earn money, the upgrade makes the price up to $700 at least, but for this money you can buy amazing MM cartridges like AT-ML170 or many other vintage MM of the golden era with stylus life span up to 2000 hrs! To learn more about MM read this article in TAS magazine. And them do yourself a favour and start reading MM thread where all the best MM already discovered for lazy people. I like some MC cartridges too, not all MM are better than MC, but the cartridges you have mentioned here is bad choice. Sometimes i think that reviewers knows nothing about cartridges when they are raving about something like Hanna or Denon 103. Any cartridge with conical tip must be avoided if your target is details and resolution which makes vinyl magical. |
Thank you Chakster! Diving into those links... The more I read, the more I realize how little I understand abut this stuff. Honestly, I had no idea there would be such a steep learning curve. I'm all about it, I just wanted to get up and running without making a big mistake out of the gate. Definitely looking for a shortcut so i can start listening to my records. I'm starting to get the feeling that this hobby could get expensive... |
Normally the cartridge comes with a weight. So you can compensate a little for light tone arms or light head shells. I have a Denon 110 high output MC on a refurbished Pioneer Pl-550 and I like the old school FM sound it gives. I am not looking for resolution from vinyl. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/6257 |
@slaw...………………………………………………….. Yup, that is correct. Couldn't stand the equipment, many returns, and many came in for warranty work. Their slogan back in the 70's was "Onkyo, artistry in sound". (yeah right) The audio store I worked in sold the Onkyo as the loss leader to get people into the store. I personally liked the Marantz, Sherwood and Kenwood that we also sold and the real good stuff, the Accuphase. I saw many Onkyo on the repair bench and the tech always complained about how cheaply made their stuff was, the circuit boards were as thin as a sheet of paper. If someone really wanted one, I sold it to them but usually they traded up within a few months. We dumped the Onkyo line for the JVC line which was much better. Also, I was just one of the salesmen there, I was not privy to decisions on what equipment lines we sold. I sold the equipment that we dealt with, like it or not. |
In my opinion the difference between 1 through 3 were minor at best but 4 stuck out like it hurt. That being said, I would have liked to hear what the various arms sound like on a popular piece that we all are familiar with. Although, 1 through 3 all sounded very good it would be interesting to compare how that front end compared to my much more modest front end. I can say that after listening I was not in a rush to go out and buy the arm, or any variation of it. It made me reflect on what an amazing value I have in my system. I think Mike’s front end cost well over $100,000. Upgrading from what I have to his would be like burning money. I would need to be a multi-billionaire to get any dollar per sound value from it. I’m not saying it is not the best front end around. What I’m underscoring is that the difference between the best and very good is getting smaller. So, today we have now entered a new era. No longer is the "best the enemy of the very good" but, rather, "the very good has become the enemy of the best"! |
For the OP, I totally agree with those who maintain that the best bang for your buck would be to buy vintage. But taking that pathway requires a certain level of sophistication, understanding of circuit design and of how products interact, and willingness to tinker. Those descriptors do not seem to match with your own characteristics or desires. Therefore I think you did the right thing to buy the pioneer turntable new. I would then advise you to proceed to buy the Ortofon bronze. Or any other very good moving magnet or moving coil Cartridge in your price range. I also agree with Chakster that you should stay away from the denon moving coil cartridges, because they are very low in compliance and will not be a good match for the tonearm that comes mounted on your pioneer turntable. You will learn more and more about this stuff as you go along, and it is never too late to experiment with great sounding older equipment. |
@lewm Thanks! I've been reading as much as I can... I agree with everything you said, and already have plans to build a secondary system that will allow me to experiment a lot more down the line with Vintage stuff. I'm really not totally opposed to Vintage stuff - I just am not knowledgeable enough yet to know what to go after, and then finding one in pristine cosmetic condition means big $$$. In the meantime, I have convinced myself that the av760slc is THE best cartridge for me and I should just drop the money now instead of going through a dozen different cartridges trying to figure it out. The VinylRoom did a review on it that really resonated with me and what I think I am looking for... I just want to spend the money once and enjoy my system without regrets or second guesses (probably impossible I know). The more I read about the MC cartridges in my budget the more I realized that probably was not the best path for me to go down at this point. @chakster Thank for the message! I've been slammed with work and haven't had a chance to reply. I need to reread this thread and everyones suggestions now that I have a bit better idea what some of these recommended cartridges cost and how they have been reviewed and compared. I still feel more comfortable buying a new modern MM cartridge over vintage at this point. Maybe for my secondary system down the road the experimentation can begin! It seems ludicrous to judge these cartridge by the words of others and not by the SOUND, but its all I have right now. So, can I get a final input from all you educated and patient folks about the following cartridges for the PLX 1000?: **av760slc** (my current choice) av750sh ortofon Black ortofon Bronze Nagaoka mp200 I will be using a Pro-Ject Tube Box DS PreAmp if that matters... :) |
As for the NEW moving magnet i would recommend Garrott, i am so happy with my old P77, make sure to check their new carts like P77i, but keep in mind that prices are in Australian Dollars, so in USD it is much cheaper. https://garrottbrothers.com/ The vintage Pickering XSV3000 with Stereohedron for $350 tip is unbeatable and there is nothing better than this even for much higher price. Stereohedron stylus tip is very special. If the cartridge is MINT like mine then you’re safe, lol ... Also there is an Expert Stylus company in UK specialized in retipping Stanton/Pickering cartridges with the same stylus profile, back in the days there were a manufacturer of Stereohedron. My buddy Nandric is a big fan of Expert Stylus service and diamonds. |
Well... I just ordered the av760slc and it should be here Weds! My TT arrived today and everything is setup and hooked up - except for the Cartridge... I am really excited. The TT is beyond my expectations in build quality, I really feel like I made the right call on that, for me. Same with the Cartridge. But there is only one way to find out... :) |
Please believe me, no one can pick a cartridge for you; that's because different cartridges favor different aspects of the music. The cartridge that floats your boat the best can only be discovered by trial and error. Since different brands have what is called a "house sound", I would advise you to know what this is and have the ability to identify it. Then by trial and error discover which one is most conducive to the music you like. All these cartridge experts have chosen the best cartridge for them, not the best cartridge for you. That is something you will have to discover for your self. |
