Help me choose an Audio Research preamp/line stage (Please?)

I have heard that Vandersteen's like no negative feedback.

@_rossbower The speakers themselves don't care. I think Richard (Vandersteen) hasn't heard an amp using feedback that does it properly. Feedback in itself is good, unless its poorly applied, then it can cause brightness and harshness, and it is commonly poorly applied in audio. If you hear an amp that uses feedback properly, you might be surprised at how natural it can sound (I think Richard might be surprised too). 

Having owned the SP8 and 9, my thoughts.

SP8 is complex and wonderful. I still have one. Retubing is no (economic) joke, however. On the SP9 you will want the MkIII. Cleaner all around. I had my MkI upgraded to III and really appreciated the difference.

SP10 and 11 have a lot, I mean a lot, of now very expensive tubes.

The SP6 is just too old, beloved though it may be. (IMHO) (But isn't everything?)

That being said if I needed a pre, the REF3 would be it. Absolutely gorgeous in every way, and a thoroughly modern design. Drool worthy.

And don't underestimate the seductive power of a remote. 

(At the moment, I'm happy with my Moon 390 and listening to SACD's at 176.4 over hdmi. Not DSD, but not a million bucks, either.)

Just my 2cents.

Good luck, have fun and buy what makes you happy. They're all good choices.
(Oh, and I owned a Classic 60, and I'm still using a VT100MkIII with its 8 glorious 6550s. Yes, 8. Warm!)

 You mentioned Vandersteen likes Audio Research which I’ve heard too but they also like MCormack. I had Vandersteens and McCormack rev a mono blocks and that is a system I still miss. Very warm and natural a little different than the Audio Research.

Hi Ross;

I wrote you what I thought was a thorough reply yesterday morning and Audiogon decided my shipping address was "unverified" even though I go to work there most days for years (!) I got them to manually "verify" me. Ugh! so....

I note that you can replace minor electronic part yourself so that adds a big savings to your side of the ledger.

Here is my experience with ARC preamps: 

ARC gear is like buying a 80s Ferrari- not that expensive to buy but very expensive to own. 

ARC's SP 10 and 15 are fantastic preamps for cheap (2500-3500) but thy are now old and the original caps are going to fail on you. Caps are cheap direct from ARC so if you have a chance to buy one of these greats that doesn't work for $1,000 you have a bug % chance it's just a power supply cap and you are under $30 from a working unit. A little poking around with a multimeter will tell you if the uF is OF on the others. There is a lot of room on the chassis to get in there and swap out weaker parts. Plus it's a lot of fun of you like that kind of tinkering. 

The highest rated Ref gear in the mind of the ARC employees I know is the Ref 5 and the LS 27. Those are not preamps I've owned but I'm advised they are the "best value per note" in the modern lineup by my ARC mole.

ARC had a bad spell in the 90s as Bill Johnson farmed out a number of the iterations following the SP 15 to "lesser mortals" there at ARC. The ARC insiders considered them "gimickey" and not really worthy of the logo. Their aftermarket value reflects this. 

Your VS110 is a great little amp and will play nicely with an ARC preamp. ARC products are designed to compliment one another so you won't have a great %  chance of a non-ARC preamp fighting with your AS110. 

The SP 10 on eBay right now looks pretty good and is well bought under $3000. Tubes for SP 10s are not insanely expensive at this time either. I'd re-tube the entire unit if it was my turn to buy one. ARC thinks 1500 hours is about when you need to consider re-tubing and 2000 hour tubes are rapidly loosing their dynamic capabilities. again- like owning a Ferrari :)

If you have a chance to audition a few "vintage" ARC preamps I'd make every effort to do so before you buy one. 

Of all the Audio Research products I have heard 

and owned,I think the LS 26 MK 2 was the best 

very musical from top to bottom.

@shakira LS-26 MkII is currently unavailable used.

Audio Research LS 26MK.2

@docknow thank you.

@dmaddox77 I had a brand new LS-28 that I broke in, then sold it and bought a used REF6.  It was better, but less so than I thought it would, or should be (~10-15%?).  I then had my REF6 upgraded to a REF6SE and it is no doubt better better, but again, like about ~10%.  The word was, the LS-28SE was about equal to a REF6.  I haven't heard one, or a comparison, but I can imagine it's true.  If it is true, then definitely a LS28SE over a REF5 or REF5SE.

I have heard that Vandersteen's like no negative feedback. I was considering Rogue Audio for a time in part because I believe they are very conservative with negative feedback.

I have quattros and while the ARC stuff is definitely good it all suffers from use of global negative feedback. Also amps and preamps eeds to match well. I tried an ARC ref 3 in my system when I had Rogue m180s and it sounded awful; tinny and thin. I spoke with Johnny at audio connection and he said of course it did because the amp and preamp were a poor match. Admittedly, by using all ARC gear you won't have that particular problem but I'd also say you'll be leaving something on the table. I did a fairly exhaustive search on preamps and landed on a ModWright ls100. It's 6sn7 based which I really like as it has that tube feel but isn't syrupy or rolled off. It's crisp and clean and an excellent preamp with no global feedback. I paid 2500ish used. I then concentrated on amplifiers. Zero global feedback was the goal. Vandersteen makes their own now but they were cost prohibitive. Johnny steered me away from ARC as he really felt the zero feedback was key. I found a used pair of Atma-Sphere Ma-1s. Holy crap. The change was not subtle. This system with zero negative feedback sounds almost as good as the system Johnny has with a Ref6se, the Vandersteen amps and Kentos. My feeling is the difference is the speakers, not the electronics. 

I know there's a lot of cache in having ARC gear but for me, particularly given the cost, it's not the stuff. 

I have a SP9mkll and have done a little tube rolling and a few other things.  It is still my go to after all these years. 
All the best.

@_rossbower You do have to be careful with the regulators in the SP10 and SP11. They are easily damaged and prone to oscillation.

@dmaddox77

+1 Highly recommended.

Oh, also, I’m capable of replacing capacitors, resistors, plugs, etc myself, so I’m not worried about reliability issues. If a unit needs work, I can do that.

I’m actually coming from a Schiit Freya+, with a Pangea Signature cord. I have Sylvania chrome sides from the mid 50’s snd RCA milspec from 1948.

I’m upgrading to ARC because I’m driving Vandersteen Quatro speakers, and ARC is one of a couple brands specifically recommended by Vandersteen. Also, I once owned some ARC equipment and liked it.

Linear Tube Audio Microzotl Stereo Tube Preamplifier; Remote; Lta;

TMR audio  has or had one for sale  much much better 

as well as far better design and you can use 4- different tube types 

6sn7 , plus 2- smaller tube choices , I have friends who have rebuilt them 

You are looking for problems with gear over 15 years old , and cheap old Alps volume pots , even the $900 Schiit audio has 128 step relay volume pot + remote 

the Microzotl blows them away  that's a fact, just look these up .AR was living off their name for over a decade, only their Reference gear was top quality ,thsts why in part they went bankrupt !!  I tell it like it is , I have been involved with multi state audio get together for years now and have seen inside most gear and much I’d shameful ,pretty box low to mid quality . 

Linear Tube Audio Microzotl Stereo Tube Preamplifier; Remote; Lta;

TMR audio  has or had one for sale  much much better 

as well as far better design and you can use 4- different tube types 

6sn7 , plus 2- smaller tube choices , I have friends who have rebuilt them 

You are looking for problems with gear over 15 years old , and cheap old Alps volume pots , even the $900 Schiit audio has 128 step relay volume pot + remote 

the Microzotl blows them away  that's a fact, just look these up .AR was living off their name for over a decade, only their Reference gear was top quality ,thsts why in part they went bankrupt !!  I tell it like it is , I have been involved with multi state audio get together for years now and have seen inside most gear and much I’d shameful ,pretty box low to mid quality . 

Your problem is your budget will put you in the older units near rebuild time Capacitors especially older units caps start drying out in 10 years loss if fidelity 

like hearing less and less , resistors too far better out there now ,old carbon type warm but gritty vs the new 1% Takman orDale  Vishay for example 

coupling caps , put in VH audio Odam small but very good  find a good tech 

and high offender the crappy old tube sockets , for $25 each you can get far better Teflon gold over Copper ,I experimented just changing the tube sockets a solid 10% increase in fidelity why 3x or better conductivity ,and far less resistance pit was like installing a good vintage tube ,I was shocked this was 7-8 years ago.

everything counts  put it on credit buy new , the LTA micro Zoe would be perfect.

another overlooked element  the volume pot itself you loose a lot of micro detail and imaging using a $25 Alps or Bourne volume pots ,they are just conductive plastic wipers , many older and new preamps use them why $$ to save 

you should just go to Schiit audio and buy the Freya +  put a decent aftermarket power cord like the Pangea sig mk2 -$200

and buy good NOS  tubes 6SN7.  I have this in my backup system with nice tubes 

go to Brent Jesse recordings, or vintage tube services , I don’t know your cables or front end ,each tube sounds different , check it out ,it is very respectable with good new old stock tubes I put 1958 Raytheon tubes in there very nicely balanced 

the best are probably the 1940-50s Tungsol top oval getter, or sylvania silver metal collar base tube , but $$ , hint hint Many companies has their name put on the tube like Hammond organ , Delco ,Fisher ,when in fact rca, or Sylvania and brand new and tested you can even buy a 2 year warranty for $15 a tube , these off names tubes are less then 40% of the correct name brand , . Brent Jesse Carrie’s a lot of these .having been into modding Everything over 20 years , and tubes over 40 years and owned a Audio store and had service techs learned a lot .

just check out the Schiit audio brand $895 and just buy your own tubes.

NOS far better then these Russian  fake Tungsol  they are using the quality ,sonics,and longevity , not in the same league.

Why does it have to be AR ? 
there are plenty of excellent preamps out there.

go to. Linear Tube Audio 

their Micro Zoe under $5 k is excellent and you have 4 tube choices .

OP thank you for this thread.  I am in the same boat, but my budget is $5-6k.  Based on everyone's posts I should go with a Ref 5 or Ref 5se.  Or should I go with a LS28se?

I’ve owned LS-15, LS-16, LS-25 and Ref1.

Based on your requirements, I’d go with Ref1, 2 and 3. Also LS-25 (original, not MkII) would fit the bill.
The Ref series preamps sound big and dynamic. The LS-25 is a touch leaner sounding compare to Ref series but very good. I would skip LS-15 and LS-16.

The newer ARC preamps are quieter, have lower noise floor and don’t have the old school ARC tube rush (hiss). They are faster and have higher resolution. You still get the tube magic but the overall sound is more accurate than the old ARC stuff.

You can find the LS-27 for $3500 - very sweet.

OP,

Unfortunately the percentage thing does not work because we all have vastly different weighting mechanisms and values. But I can put it this way the SP9 was a notable upgrade from the 8, the Ref 2 notably better than the 9 (there was some controversy with the REF 1… the REF3 was an improvement over the REf2. That is the way I would look at it.

I have most recently owned a REF5SE and upgraded to REF 6SE… with a notable improvement.

Another way of look at it you are talking about the SP8 first introduced in 1981 versus 2005… with continuous improvement. During this time ARC made very significant gains in detail and noise levels… keeping midrange bloom and musicality and approaching neutral from the tube side… while solid state was get warmer from the brittle screechy side. If I had it on a 1981 design preamp, it would be a tube preamp, but I would prefer a tube preamp from 2005.

Would a REF 3 be twice as good as an SP-8? Or 50% better than an SP-10? I only push back because that is pushing the top of my budget, and I only want to go that high if it really is truly worth it.

I love my recently purchased SP-17 with Phono Pre. It was a consignment sell through a boutique dealer I work with. I had treated he and his wife to concerts by Godspeed You! Black Emperor and King Buffalo concerts, so I got it for $1,500 -- freshly serviced and with new tubes. Matches great with my McIntosh MC-225.  You may look for one of these ARC's as an idea.

REF 3 sounds like a winner.

@_rossbower I’m seeing used REF3’s from $3468 (in Canada) to $4300 right now. The newer SP/LS or REF models have balanced outputs in addition to single, which is future-proofing for your system

I don't need phono particularly. Only the LS-5 and LS-16 are unavailable right now.

Do you need a phono? Patience is a virtue, the right preamp will show up eventually. I like this one but you’d have to stretch your budget. 

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisb5bd2-audio-research-sp-20-tube

SP20’s don’t show up for sale often!
 

Good luck!