Help finding a subwoofer

Any opinions on the Definitive Technology SuperCube 6000

I have a cheap subwoofer now. The receiver has subwoofer output and I think that unless the receiver is playing a source with subwoofer code there will not be line signal coming out through the subwoofer line output. Which just make me reaffirmed on the believe that speaker level input in a subwoofer plays real dividends and afford flexibility. I am saying this because I feel I require speaker level input but see a lot of recommendations for subs without speaker level inputs. Now my receiver also has preamp out I am just not sure yet if this works concurrently with all speaker outputs active.

Actually, you'd probably be shopping a two channel pro audio amp with onboard DSP. The outboard clutter of another component and the extra cabling? 

You'll be missing out on the current flexibility of a remote controlled subwoofer and EQ presets.     

I think there are a couple of amps that cost less than 500 us $ with bass management. What’s interesting is that I could have a cabinet built in my destination and reduce freight expense. I will eventually relocate and could reduce weight this way. I would need plans though.

While the Nuprime ST10 seems promising it does not include DSP and adding it would increase the cost. The only option that sticks to my mind though embarrassed am I  not to remember manufacturer less model # is above 3 grand. It would be educationally at least interesting to know of any or some in exsistence if there are units for bass management…that would add another set of cables… Looks like an interesting amp, any comments on use as mains full range in your system that you would like to share? Thanks for your post ieales

Thank you for your comments on the ported designs. Ieales

I threw out the Rel cabinets. They are garbage now. I removed the drivers and 5e plate amps. But I think I am going to throw out the amps too. Those things do not have a good reputation and I mean the amps alone. Regarding the driver, I 5ink both the storm iii and the Stadium iii drivers have same diameter dimension, The STORM one being heavier.

Today I threw out a Storm iii and a Stadium iii.

If the drivers are still good AND you can retrieve, you can remove the amps, fabricate a filler [or just add external connectors] you can use a 2ch class D* and DSP to blow the doors off the REL amplification.

Ported speakers are sub-optimal in many areas: phase coherence, impedance, port huffing... I'm not sure I ever heard a pair I liked.

[* I have a 150W NuPrime ST-10 listed on US Audio Mart that I used for woofer amp in my triamped mains. Other amp options abound.]

i am a diehard rel user... they are wonderful subs

but it is true that older models can have their plate amps fail, and the current ownership of the company (john hunter et al) is happy to strand the owner of the older models when that happens ...

be that as it may, it doesn’t take away from the superb musicality and quality of the subs and how they help systems sound truly wonderful

Doyle3433 thanks for your comments, is the sealed box sound more detailed than the ported one? I tend to think that a more detailed sound would please me.

Today I threw out a Storm iii and a Stadium iii. The worse part is that Rel do not share schematics. Although one does not have the mind to do so, one should make sure that the manufacturer does, so that one (subwoofer) has a future. To me, shame on Rel. One GOOD reason to avoid.

Thanks ieales for your educating post.

By the way, I would not mind at all having a passive subwoofer with a separate component amlifier. From what I have seen online, I think that 500 box us can buy you a good one with DSP, ……. I am not sure a remote, so if anyone would like to contribute their thought on the idea and specific components and passive subs that would be great.

Thank you for your post. That Cain and Cain sub offering is years gone. Sadly Mr Terry Cain passed away years ago. Yes, that is a “lovely”. Open if one became available. Or two!!! Thanks again Bayle was the subs model name I thick.

alanpiga, I'm sure I'm missing something regarding your sub requirements.

I see Cain & Cain offers a reasonably priced sub that seems tailored to their speakers when using a capable amplifier?

Your preamplifier appears to have an extra set of low line level RCA outputs? Are you currently using those outputs for something else?  

 how the input of a subwoofer is able to deal with signals from all amps in a high level input

The sub high level input is high impedance, so only uses voltage and very little current from the power amp. Level control adjusts.

A hundred-fold increase in power is only a tenfold increase in voltage and easily handled with a high resistance input potentiometer. How inaudible the additional wire and circuitry is depends on the power amp, cables and listener.

Here's a negative comment about REL subs: I use 3 from the same era, 2 Q150s and a Q108 MK2, and REL will not repair them...no no no. I inquired about this and they stated to me in no uncertain terms...no. There ya go. I still like RELs though and would buy a new one if needed.

@alanpiga  the PB2000 to me is better musically. It just breathes and has such a presence. Makes sense, the box is huge by comparison, as is the driver. Funny thing is the internal amp in the micro is more powerful. I have read that folks seem to like the SB2000 more for music, reportedly faster and more musical likely due to being sealed as opposed to a ports on the PB.

Couple of variables to me that could be in play is my two rooms are quite a bit different. The basement room has loads of room treatment. Corner foam, stand alone traps and about half the back wall covered in acoustic foam panels. Living room is smaller and has no treatment at all. I think if I could have a bigger sub box in the living room I would have gone with either the PB2000 or the SB2000.

I should have said in 5e last paragraph when connected to a high level signal.

I believe my Cain and Cain have just one resistor at input.

If one has a couple of subs in stereo a y cable splitter is not needed. Thoough I have read that both subs work with The sum of left and right signal to be able to cancel nods.

And a powered sub must deal with the amplifier to driver interface correctly.

Another part that makes me a total ignorant in the subject ask the question is how the input of a subwoofer is able to deal with signals from all amps in a high level input, does it not make a difference to the sub the differences in amps current, impedance tabs?

Yate, with your SVS SB1000pro can you use the app for frequency response when you make the high level connection? soix makes a good sugestión that you may not be able to use on board DSP and high level connections.

do you mind to elaborate on what you meant when you wrote preserving the damping factor at crossover frequency

When using active crossovers - which entails removing the passive in a multiway speaker - the amplifier is connected directly to the driver, so the damping factor of the amplifier is unaffected.

An idealized passive crossover has an infinite impedance at the crossover frequency. Hence zero amplifier damping. In the real world, the impedance is not quite infinite, but can be several multiples of the nominal impedance and thus driving the damping to zero. Look at speaker impedance graphs on Stereophile and you will see impedance peaks of 10x nominal. The phase response is horrible in the XO region.

Thinking of budget I would forego xo to the Mains. And thinking about the high level input the question arise if the the worse tube amp bass performance relative to solid state is due to interaction with speakers is it then less worse going into the subwoofer. If tubes mean bad bass then I would also have to forego high level input .

XO to the mains is trivial. A simple series capacitor correctly sized to the main amp impedance. Anyone can build one in an afternoon. XO frequency should be at least ½ octave above anechoic corner frequency.

See Simple HQ Passive XO

High level sub inputs are about the dumbest idea extant. People spend silly money on fancy speaker cables and then gum up the works with a "Y-cord"

doyle3433 between the sb3000 micro and PB2000 would you rate one of them as better for music? 

I saw the Martin Logan picturre with high level inputs those pictures are deceiving looking like there are non since they're not protruding like others. Thank you Avanti 1960 for letting me know!

Thanks for your post boomerbillone

Subwoofers ar very profitabe but not very difficult to build. Checkout Parts Express for a wide selection of pasive and active kits. You can save $eriou$ $$. Don't spend thousands. Happy Listening!

Thinking of budget I would forego xo to the Mains. And thinking about the high level input the question arise if the the worse tube amp bass performance relative to solid state is due to interaction with speakers is it then less worse going into the subwoofer. If tubes mean bad bass then I would also have to forego high level input .

I thought that EVERY sub with hi level input and dsp could be used with both working at the same time, Soix!

An active crossover is there is to solve an issue, but you do not yet know if you have that issue or if you even care. REL subs are actually fairly limited in features.  I wish I could easily show pics of my best REL vs best JL Audio waterfall graphs.   Better to be lucky than good, though ;)

I correct myself, if some SVS models have high level inputs then that is a serious weight against the 3000 micro, which is TOO bad because of the relative advantage of the micro 3000 transportability. See? I wouldn’t mind a smaller sub that fits better in more places and can be shipped in a smaller package.

I used Rel Storm iii and Stadium iii in the past so I am not used to crossover for the mains and am scared to do so because it will alter the signal to the mains. But I see the logic of Aliviating the amps job and that is no small feat. Having said that I think that no crossover to the mains is simpler and simpler is better. Now, many subs I suppose can xo the MAINS but then I think it would have to be a real expensive sub to do a really good job at that.

I am curious about the Martin Logan Dynamo 1000 which are on eBay for 900 a piece. I own a pair of tiny Motion 15 speakers and think that Martin Logan know their business. Talking about speakers I have Cain and Cain Single Ben with Fostex 8 in. 97 db eff drivers. Want to spend about 3000 in a good tube amp 35 watt… the high level input I envision to be able to follow the tube amp signal better.I see SVS is VERY popular so I am curious about the micro 3000 but if other models have remote management that is another thing!,,,,, 

I want to spend 1500 us used in two subs.

Ieales do you mind to elaborate on what you meant when you wrote preserving the damping factor at crossover frequency if that is what you mean with Fxo 

Thank you for those great responses.

I believe in not altering (DSP etc) the signal. It adds distortion.

No it doesn't. CD digital output into a DSP offers the ability to exactly tailor the XO frequency and slope to match the drivers, something that is extremely difficult with passive XO. Additional benefits are minimum phase, time alignment, room correction and precise driver control as damping factor is preserved at Fxo instead of being ZERO with a passive XO.

99% have never heard a correctly timed, phased and crossed-over multi-amp system. Shock and awe are the usual reactions when they do. Poorly recorded multi-mic compressed one dimensional recordings are exposed as the dreck they are. Comments like "That's one of my favorite recordings and it sounds so lifeless compared to ..." 

I was using a set of SEAS Froy3 speakers and added a pair of 18" woofers crossed passively about 85 Hz designed by the SEAS designer(a friend) and the improvement in openness , detail and clarity was overtly noticeable even thoughthe Froy3 was already very good. Of course being designed by the Froy3 designer the crossover between the speakers and woofers was custom designed for just this case.

I do understand the lack of a high pass when the high pass is generic and not a special design for the speakers and woofer. It's easier to integrate without the high pass but you pay a price for this flexibility.

+1 @winnardt about REL quality and sound.

As to the high pass filter @dynamiclinearity I agree there are pros and cons. Full range speakers and good amplification can handle full signal.

The quality of the high pass filter is hugely important in a resolving system, and I believe in not altering (DSP etc) the signal. It adds distortion. That's just my approach.  DSP for a sub? may be a good idea to tune to eliminate room nodes.  I was able to move my two REL subs around until I had minimal bass booming.  The addition of ASC bass traps (I found them used here) in the corners smoothed it all out.  Who knows, if I had subs with iphone controlled DSP I would have liked that, but I think in the end I prefer the purity of the signal.

What’s your budget?  Incidentally, I don’t know if you can use onboard DSP if you use high-level inputs. 

I've said it before in this forum and I'll say it again, REL subs seem to be the one type of audio gear that almost everyone can agree on as being well built, having excellent performance, and a good value. In fact, I don't think I've seen a negative comment yet about an REL sub, although one person didn't care for the customer service.

I have 2 listening systems, both 2 channel audio. SVS SB 3000 in smaller system, main system SVS SB 4000. Both offer, via my I phone a bluetooth system for adjusting level outputs. It is wonderful to sit in your preferred listening area and make adjustments sitting down. No more up and down, back and forth. Good luck, Robert TN

Just installed an SVS micro 3000 in my living room system and I am simply blown away. Something so tiny can perform this well?? I was a bit taken aback. I have an SVS PB 2000 in my man cave and this little micro is right on par. To me the 2000 is laid back presence, the 3000 micro is speed… both produce extension, both are easy to adjust with the app. Both simply disappear. Size wise the 2000 is very big and would have never been sanctioned by my better half in the living room. The micro is so small it can be a bit more hidden. I’ve really only had a couple days with the micro, but I am just thrilled with it. I bought mine through the outlet tab on the SVS site and save a few clams. I recommend it highly. 
 

P.S. nice reviews from well known HIFI mags.

No suggestions but two comments.

First an 8" woofer plus passive radiator is still just an 8" woofer. A passive radiator may look like a woofer but it's just a port substitute.

Second, I know there are arguments against this but I'd look for a sub with a high pass crossover that rolls off the bottom of the main speaker. This takes a big load off the main speaker allowing it to play louder and cleaner.

SVS has the functionality you desire... 

REL

I’m using a REL T9/X, which is my first REL subwoofer. I like it better than the Genesis 928 ($2800) sub I had years ago. I’m using it to support a pair of Magnepan LRS speakers. They work very well together 

@alanpiga 

plus 1 @blisshifi on the SVS subwoofers. I have the SB2000 Pro and the app really made setup a breeze.  Also the sales and service people there are great.

'Full Range' speakers seldom are. My current speakers are 25Hz ±4dB in a typical room. Main woofer amps are 200w monoblock.

Adding a 40Hz first order Butterworth effectively doubles the woofer 'music' power and transient response is much better. Room & sub integration is much easier.

Pop music doesn't benefit much, but massive orchestra or pipe organ is a quantum leap better.

REL. 

They are really respected in performance and in setup. If you can‘T get a sub setup correctly then it is not going to contribute the max. REL exceeds at having a sophisticated and easy to use setup. 

@ieales  Hi I do  get the line level and rolling off the main speakers.  This can ease up the main amplifier and not stress the woofers of the main speakers.  I did this with my bookshelf speakers.  But IMOH I feel large 'full range' speakers sound better run at full spectrum with dialed in subs, using the high level inputs (aka REL).  And totally agree two is much better than one for eliminating (or minimizing) room nodes.