Help choosing a DAC

shrapnel,

reverb.com has a Wyred4sound 10th anniversary DAC for sale for $3,100 plus shipping you could probably get them down from that price to about $2,500.

@shrapnel Nope having two boxes doesn’t bother me at all. They complement one another actually. I like having the better oven controlled clock in the Hermes and the I2S connection as well, it seems to help clean up the USB connection and any jitter. I just posted some pictures of my system if you want to take a look for yourself and see what it looks like.

+1 for TMR, I bought my Hermes from them. There is a Pontus II and a Hermes for sale there at the moment, at least a couple of days ago there was.  There’s a Venus II for sale at UpscaleAudio, which is much like TMR as they test components and have a return policy.  It’s an older version though, not the 12th Anniversary or the 12th-1 (I’m not entirely sure those aren’t the same).  Might be worth taking a punt on as you can return it if you don’t care for it.

shrapnel,

you might find a used Wyred4sound 10,000 verse 3D for around 2500 if you Google Wyred4sound 10th anniversary DAC for sale there might be some around.

@jastralfu Thank you for the response and link, I agree that you are likely close to the venus, but I was hoping to be at the one box solution instead of two and buy used, if at all possible, honestly I have not seen any Venus for sale. If I go the Pontus route I will likely go the Iris or Hermes route. Does to bother you to have two boxes though?

@decooney I have watched the DAC space now for close to 3 years just to see what this community settles on and I have the sense that this community to a great extent agrees that Denaphris  makes good DAC's. Like @hilde45 so well put the costs, it can get expensive. That is why I try to avoid doing that.

@paulcreed thank you for your response, you are correct, CJ does have a warm enveloping sound. I might in the future try out the PASS Labs line, but that is also only if I get a smoking deal. I know everyone pairs the Pontus with Iris or hermés, so I was hoping to just get done with a single box and get there (hopefully used)

@oddiofyl  thank you for this suggestion, will give it a read.

@jjss49 Thank you for your advise, I have read your posts. I am leaning the same way as you suggest here, if I decide to stick with the Denaphris line.

@arafiq Thank you for your input, Pontus seems to be the sweet spot.
 

@magnuman  Thanks for that suggestion, unfortunately $4500 is a little steep for me. Ideally $2500 is my sweet spot, extendable t $3000, anything more would be a bit burdensome for me.

@newwater it is to this knowledge that exists amongst you all minus any fluff that I have come seeking your opinions. I will defn check the Wyred4Sound out. Not very familiar with them.

@vthokie83  thanks for your input, What you suggest seems to be the consensus here. Please put a post up when you do indeed move to the Terminator, I for one would be curios on the differences.

@veroguy  Thank you for the suggestion, will defn check it out, R2R is the way I want to go.

@hilde45 Thank you for that example with TMR, I had not considered that. Makes a lot of sense to be careful what to try out. I have never bought on the US Audiomart ever, would it be similar to Audiogon?

@soix I have heard of this one, I will check it out, but do you think I can do an honest evaluation (considering burn in etc) in the short time before return to tell me this would be a good option?

Here. Get this. If it doesn’t work out just return it.

https://www.amazon.com/Musician-Aquarius-Midrange-Andromeda-Monoceros/dp/B096ZLDG36?th=1

Here’s a review…

https://soundnews.net/sources/dacs/musician-aquarius-r-2r-dac-review/

+1 @jjss49

Buy used. Re-sell at nearly the same price. You have to bear a bit of risk and hassle buying and selling but otherwise, you’re going to take a lot of $$ hits as you try out DAC’s until you’re satisfied.

About TMR, they will check out the gear before you buy it and will stand behind it working for a brief period. But their prices are a little higher than the other used market (generally) and they have this policy:

"Any returns initiated outside of product defects, the customer is responsible for all Shipping and Handling costs, and there will be a 5% restocking fee taken from the refunded amount."

In other words, TMR offers value-added for those who want more guarantees about the gear’s condition and return-ability. This is a big plus for some folks. But that 5% restocking fee, while maybe acceptable for lower priced items, gets unacceptably high for me once I start considering much more expensive items.

If you bought, say, a Denafrips Pontus II from TMR @$1599 and kept it, shipping would cost you $55 and you’d have spent $1650 plus tax, more or less. If returned  to TMR, you’d pay $55 shipping each way ($110) and about an $80 restocking fee. Almost $200 to try out a DAC for a month.

Alternatively, you could buy that same DAC from a private seller (check their ratings), and pay (in this case), $1299 plus shipping. If shipping was the same, you’d be out $1350 for the same DAC, but without an option to return it.

@shrapnel 

A little over your budget, but something to consider:

Mojo Audio has a used base-model "Mystique EVO" DAC for sale for $2999.  Made in the USA, R2R dac.  (I own the B4B model)

I would look at that, the Pontus 2, and the Weis 204/205.

OP,

The Pontus II is a very musical, involving, and just plain fun DAC that makes you want to listen to music. It is NOT the end game in detail, but it is so enjoyable to listen to.

I will say that adding a Denarips Iris DDC before the Pontus II and using I2S to the Pontus did bring out more of everything (including detail) without taking any of the goodness away. I do and could live with that combo for a long time. Eventually I'll upgrade to a T+A 200, or Denafrips Terminator II or Plus....when I get a better streamer.

I have listen to so many different DAC’s my head hurts. 90 % of them are all linked by me in same class. OK but have different underlying sound problems. Not real sounding & colored or just plain dull and lifeless. Tube or SS makes no difference they try but fall short. Then one day I came across Playback Design DAC’s. Wow , that sounds more like my real instruments live!  Amazing the difference , even my non musical friends can hear the definition and detail like playing live in room.  Playback Design for the TRUE representative of live and organic music. 

shrapnel,

you could try the Wyred4sound 10th anniversary DAC, one of the reviewers put it up against his VPI turntable with a $5,000 Japanese cartridge on it and he said that the 10th anniversary DAC was every bit as analog sounding, on that review I bought it, it's $4,500 US and I totally agree it is the most analog DAC that I've had in my system and they have a 30-day trial period if you don't like it you can send it back and get all your money back.

I owned both Denafrips Terminator 2 and Pontus 2. 
The Terminator checked all the audiophile boxes but I found Pontus to be more musical and engaging. Buy it used and you can sell it for pretty much what you paid for it. Good luck!

op

i trust you have seen my long thread on dacs i have tried (and commented on in length) on this board

i run a similar system as yours

i would say buy a used pontus 2 used at a good price ($1200-1400), try it, and you can resell it dollar for dollar if you think you want a little more overt treble detail and touch less midrange/midbass warmth (that is what a venus 2 will give you), then you wait for a venus 2 to show up used

don’t get sucked into denafrips' latest or 12th edition 12-1 12-2 etc etc all that abject nonsense (which is what it is) -- pontus 2 or venus 2 is what you should look for if you want value for $ spent on denafrips gear

Check out the Lab 12 DAC 1 Reference.   Cost is about the same as a Venus 

I had a CJ cav45 S2 with the Pontus and borrowed a Venus and I can relate to Vishines thoughts between the two. I think the Pontus has the relaxed character of the CJ. Venus is just a little different. If you are trying to branch out from CJ sound Venus may be the one. If you get the Pontus get the Iris or the Hermès. It’s a must have for me. I does clean up the Pontus but in a good way. 

 @oddiofyl "My problem with Denafrips is there is no return policy.     What is your budget ?   Maybe consider used ,   check out TMR in Colorado.  They have a good return policy."  

+1 

Gotta say overall, with only one minor exception over the past 4-5 years, I've had good interaction and transactions with TMR Audio.  They helped me move some gear more than a few times - so I could try new stuff, at reasonable prices, and the return policy was there if I needed it.  They have learned and evolved, with increasing inventory supply over time.    

This is a nice summary of the Denafrips lineup

I have the Pontus II and Hermes DDC. It’s a great combination. The Hermes lowered the noise floor and opened up the soundstage, improved imaging and transients etc. It has an I2S connection too which is nice. $2500 would get you that combo used. Not having heard the Venus I would still hazard a guess that my setup is close to its level, although it likely sounds different. There are also other R2R DACs out there that folks seem to like such as the Gustard R26 or the HoloAudio May. If I were to replace what I have it would likely be with the Terminator or something similar. However, I am more than happy with my setup and plan on enjoying it for a very long time.

It's a sleeper and a keeper..... great preamp.  

@marco1 Thank you for your response, I do remember reding about the Merlin's about 10 or more years ago. Are they really as good as all the reviews suggested? I would love to terminate with the terminator, but unfortunately the road for me ends at Venus. I am leaning the Venus way as well, but just not sure if my system is high end enough for the big step up that Venus provides from Pontus. Most of the reviewers mention that before you go up the chain in the Denaphrips line to first upgrade other components to match the step up in performance. I am not sure if I will do this with my system as I am very happy where I am. Hence the Q.

@oddiofyl Thank you, it works well, I do love it.  When you say it is a sleeper, do you mean a keeper? My budget is $2500 I would love to consider used, matter of fact that would be my 1'st option. Thank you for the response.

@ricred1 I wish I could listen to them, unfortunately that is not an option for Denfrips and I have read so many reviews that are positive that I do want to consider them. I don't know what other options I have other than them. I agree room synergy plays a big role, but then doesn't that already decided for with the rest of your system? Thank you for your response.

I’m listening to Handel’s Messiah right now as I type. Using the Pontus II. Electronics are CJ 2250 and ET3 SE :-). Merlin Black Magic speakers and two Velodyne subs ( also have the Oppo) so you could say our systems are very similar to say the least. Obviously I’m a little prejudice but it’s quite a nice system and very musical. I also have the Terminator Plus in another system that I have played using the CJ components. Big step up from the Pontus as it should be. I only mention this because the Venus will get you much closer to the Terminator than the Pontus. Not quite sure what Vinshine means but as a “music lover/critical listener” I’d definitely opt for the Venus. Also not sure that it will satisfy your BIFL though so you might want to save up for at least the Terminator II before calling it quits (if that’s even possible).

That is a nice system.   I owned that pre and it is a sleeper.   My problem with Denafrips is there is no return policy.     What is your budget ?   Maybe consider used ,   check out TMR in Colorado.  They have a good return policy.   

I think it's best to try to find a way to listen to different DACs in your system. I recently listened to a Aries Cerat and a Mola Mola DAC. Both had very strong recommendations and I didn't like either one. Different systems, rooms, and preferences play such a critical role into what "your ears" will prefer.