Tough subject but power cords do make a difference. The truth is everyone's power delivery grid is "different".....with noise, traffic of RFI etc. So to design an integral power supply to fight the catastrophic power grids likely gets to be more than talk. I have only had one piece of gear in 40 years non-affected by various power cords and that was a Conrad-Johnson GAT preamp. There stock cord ($25) worked right along with other $$$$$cords. I know longer own that pre. but did try many PC's of to no avail. I was amazed by it since it was a new discovery. Never again has that been the case with a power cord.
Hearing is believing?........power cables.......
For anyone who is skeptical about the difference a high quality power cord can make in your high quality audio system........try it.......hearing is believing. About 10 years ago when I bought my first "entry level" hifi system (B&K amp/preamp, Canton speakers) my audio advisor dropped off a Tara Labs Prism power cord. He said just try it for a week and if you don't think it makes a difference just return it. I, like most unfamiliar with high quality cables, was skeptical.......how could a cable 1 meter long from the wall to my equipment make a difference? I put it on the power amp and yes I could definitely tell there was a more defined bass and overall clearer soundscape. I'm a musicians, so I figured maybe the "non audiophile" can't hear the difference. So my brother-in-law who is a bricklayer came over and we did a blind listening test. I randomly switched the Tara, sometimes trying to fool him......told him I switched but didn't........he could tell every time I used the Tara! So I was convinced that it was "wishful thinking on my part or particularly sensitive ears. If you don't think a great power cable can make a difference........take the challenge. Try one for a week and see (hear) for yourself!
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a blind test can certainly be done for a lengthy listening session -- you are thinking of the A/B/X type of blind test Xyzal (levocetirizine) is an antihistamine with the usual side effects; IIRC it is an enantiomer and can be protected under IP laws, while "zyrtec" cannot - it may or may not be any better (so still use a $500 Miele to vac your speaker cloth) |
The only side effects of a blind test is the uncertainty of what you just heard due to the short nature of the listening. All the harping of expectation bias said to exist in hearing what one actually does hear in normal listening, are present in A/B testing. It's been exposed as a cheap parlor trick a long time ago and yet, derp. All the best, Nonoise |
Actually it be very possible to get negative results with blind tests just like any kind of test for a wide variety of reasons. Shall I list them? People get way too hung up on blind tests because they mistakenly believe they settle all disputes, especially when it comes to controversial things like uh, power cords. A negative result from a blind test means practically nothing. Hel-loo! |
Yep, blind test and not blind test can pick the difference every time between a good quality audiophile Power Cable and cheap throwaway cable. Combined with good Power conditioning, music just flows with better depth, definition, dynamics etc. As long as you have high quality equipment money extremely well spent. |
For those who tried some aftermarket cables and listened, I challenge anyone who has not done a blind test to do so. if you haven't then you are just muddling placebo effect and expectation bias. Money can be spent to give better sound in other ways (that really do matter) or to buy some artwork, or nicer looking gear with the same SQ, or donated to a charity for whatever esthetics you want. |
I agree....+1 for kahlenz. Buying expensive power cables can make you happy for reasons other than an improvement in SQ! I have no issue with that. I do take issue with unsubstantiated claims that might cause a novice audio enthusiast to read what is here and believe that he must upgrade all his wires, cables (even digital) and other interconnects in order to "improve" his system...and then fall victim to the persuasiveness of expectation bias. |
I have neither "golden ears" nor deep pockets, but I can hear the difference upgraded power cables make in many systems. To those who say it is only a placebo effect or the results of expectation bias, I challenge them to just try some aftermarket cables and listen. Like some of the previous posters, in my experience the differences in power cables are more revealing after long sessions of listening to familiar music. A/B testing, for me at least, does not tell me much (as I suspect the influence of expectation bias nulls any critical analysis). I find that general satisfaction, pleasure, and involvement in the music are the more telling aspects of whether an upgraded power cable makes any difference in any given system. Most manufacturers of quality audio components will include an adequately specified power cable for average conditions with their equipment. Your individual system may or may not benefit from a different cable. I agree with the arguments some of the previous posters made regarding the economics of including anything more than an adequately specified cable with their components. It is fun and interesting to try different things out with your system under your conditions. Just like tube rolling, trying out different inter-connects and speaker cables, room treatments, DSP, etc., upgrading power cables can sometimes produce profound changes in your listening experience. |
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Now you are starting to get it knghifi. It was a bit like toilet training an infant, but you are slowly understanding. This is the exact reason why manufacturers (that I know of), don't supply upmarket cables. One cable doesn't suit all. So they generally throw in a cheap throwaway, as most will upgrade cables. Now do you understand why it would be a waste if they put in a fairly expensive same cable on all their components?. It might match beautifully on some components but not match so well on others. My example illustrated this brilliantly. Relating to the second part do you know of any manufacturer supplying fairly expensive Cables with components? I don't but of course don't know all manufacturers. I've seen slightly better Interconnects supplied which at a guess might cost $25 rather than the $5 throwaways. |
@knghifi You are still seriously struggling with the concept. I'll try and make it simpler for you. If you purchased a component and you had to pay a premium for a supplied cable and the cable made the component sound ordinary, would you be happy paying the premium for the included cable? I certainly wouldn't. Wouldn't that be a big reason why manufacturers don't generally supply upmarket cables? I hope you finally get it.In your example, you prefer a $500 cable but there are owners that prefer a different cable. One less or more expensive than $500, it's a PERSONAL choice ... no consensus No correct or incorrect answer so manufacturers just include a generic cable and allow owners choose. Probably reason no captive PC but IEC??? If there is a CONSENSUS, regardless of cost, manufacturer will include with the component. |
@knghifi You are still seriously struggling with the concept. I'll try and make it simpler for you. If you purchased a component and you had to pay a premium for a supplied cable and the cable made the component sound ordinary, would you be happy paying the premium for the included cable? I certainly wouldn't. Wouldn't that be a big reason why manufacturers don't generally supply upmarket cables? I hope you finally get it. |
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toddverrone05-10-2017 9:48am ... I know enough wealthy people who still watch what they spend ... but, in the end it’s all relative, so everyone should make their own decisions and practice contentment ...+1. Indeed, frugality is the path many follow to achieve wealth, as explained by the researcher Thomas J. Stanley decades ago. But it is all relative. Many people think it's insane to spend on audio what some here would call a "modest" system. |
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"...Max. I've spent is $350 on one cable, all are a step-up over stock Power Cables. So my point was you don't have to spend mega dollars to get an improvement. " You seem to be a bit confused on the fundamental nature of consumer economics so I hope you will see my further detailed explanation here as it is quite apparent you either did not read or did not understand my earlier response to you on this matter. For some users of Music Reproduction Systems spending $350 on a cable is what you previously referred to as a "kings ransom." It is a months rent for them perhaps or a few weeks worth of food. It is a price that they cannot even remotely consider when they could by an other functionally similar cable for $10 that would work satisfactorily in their Music Reproduction System. I understand that for you this $350 is a relatively modest or at least justifiable expense that your consumer budget can presumably support without sacrificing any of lifes essential costs such as rent or food. Yet for others the same $350 is a trivial expense and one not even necessary to account for in the financial planning because it is the equivalent of "pocket change" to them. In fact there are some users of Music Reproduction Systems for who even many thousands of US dollars spent on a cable is a minor expense that has no bearing on their monthly budget because it represents just a tiny small insignifcant portion of their monthly income. What you are doing is applying your value system to others decisions and then making a value judgement about the other person. Of course this type of judgement is used erroneously all of the time but it is in error never the less because you don't know what their budget/financial status is. You're statement "you don't have to spend mega dollars" doesn't make sense because in the one example you have already spent what some consider megadollars and in another example you have purchased the equivalent of a "budget" item that would not satisfy a consumer with perhaps substantially greater financial resources than yourself and frankly I am a little surprised that you seem to struggle to accept this very simple economic concept but you seem intelligent so if you consider it carefully I am quite confident you will understand the error in judgement you are repeatedley making in this thread. |
I'll go through it for you slowly so hopefully you can comprehend. My response was to dynaquest4's asking why manufacturer's don't supply upmarket cables with equipment? As I've explained it would be uneconomical and commercial suicide for a manufacturer to do this.Manufacturers realize end users will roll cables or tubes so just supply inexpensive for stock. No matter what they supply for stock, it will be changed. IMO, nothing to do with economical and commercial suicide. Probably with exceptions for Shindo, KR Audio 1610 base amps ... I then gave an example as I'd recently done an A/B with 2 of a manufacturer's CD Players. The initial XLR cable I chose to use sounded really nice on the CD-S8 but not so great on the CD-S7DAC. Now if you bought the CD-S7DAC and had to fork out an extra $500 or so because the cable was included would you be happy? This was a perfect example of why manufacturer's (that I know of) don't supply upmarket cables.Is it not possible another customer prefers the INITIAL XLR over the $500 cable? Eye of the beholder! |
@knghifi You appear to be as mixed-up and muddled up as the King Of Siam and unabletothink. It appears you just read unabletothink's incoherent ramblings and didn't bother to read my original posts of which unabletothink took excerpts from. Always a big,big mistake. I'll go through it for you slowly so hopefully you can comprehend. My response was to dynaquest4's asking why manufacturer's don't supply upmarket cables with equipment? As I've explained it would be uneconomical and commercial suicide for a manufacturer to do this. I then gave an example as I'd recently done an A/B with 2 of a manufacturer's CD Players. The initial XLR cable I chose to use sounded really nice on the CD-S8 but not so great on the CD-S7DAC. Now if you bought the CD-S7DAC and had to fork out an extra $500 or so because the cable was included would you be happy? This was a perfect example of why manufacturer's (that I know of) don't supply upmarket cables. The "Don't have to spend a kings ransom" quote was in response to the posts quoting near 7k & 13.5k for Power Cables. I am personally using $250 Power Cables on some very high end Active hybrid stats amongst my many sets of Speakers. Also on some big Mono Blocks. Many would be putting mega dollar cables on these, but I'm currently comfortable with these, mind you they compete with Cables costing a lot more. They are a substantial step-up over stock cables. Would the mega dollar cables be an improvement? I would certainly hope so but I'm in no hurry to find out. I have a dozen or so different brands in my 20 odd Power Cables (5 systems). Max. I've spent is $350 on one cable, all are a step-up over stock Power Cables. So my point was you don't have to spend mega dollars to get an improvement. Somehow unabletothink started an ego-driven delusional rant about himself. Incomprehensible. There's your lesson knghifi, enjoy. |
decibel: Please, please do not feel sorry for me. This thread is not about me...it is about power cables. Though flattered that you took the time to review my previous posts, your opinion about whether my participation is or is not wasting my time has no place in this discussion. The discussion is not about me...it is about power cables. I have a point of view...as you do. Your point of view, right or wrong, is welcome here. My point of view, right or wrong, should be also. The earth is not flat? Was that comment about power cables? I'd encourage you to, as we said in the Navy, "Stay focused and on target." |
@dynaquest4 dynaquest4 wrote: "Analog-like liquidity"....really? That's a new one. Who makes up this stuff? I just went thru your responses to a few posts. Did it ever occur to you that you're wasting your time (and others) on Audiogon? You have obviously not experienced what impact cables can have in a high resolution system? I feel sorry for you! Did you notice, that the earth is not flat ... ? |
@toddverrone and - @initforthemusic - thank for the feedback - much appreciated. Todd - I find that the bigger the transformer in a component then the more subtle the improvements You mono blocks probably has a very large transformer and lots of caps in the power supply. This would provide very good power to the circuits, so the improvements noticed would be less discernible. Having said that I found the improvements with a power amp to be less about things like bass improvements, dynamics and image - and more about the improvements in the reproduction of minute venue acoustics and the realism the power amp is allowed to conveyconvey The power supply in the Tube pre-amp probably benefits more from the quality power cable - allowing for the faster response to transient peaks. Also, the Helix cable is a very low noise cable, but it also ensures the neutral side of the Pre is as close to zero volts as it can be. Without noise on the neutral side of the circuit ensures the best possible reproduction Guys - I am not surprised by your observations - they are similar to my own, but they confirm that great cables can be applied to both Tube or solid state and provide the same level of improvement Many Thanks |
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"...once some very basic and inexpensive length/guage requirements are met, nothing is to be gained by spending sometimes insane amounts on aftermarket cabling" What you call insane may I must say very respectfully maybe considered by someone else to be a very modest amount to spend on their Music Reproduction System it is a matter of assigning value to an expense and that is a very personal computation to undertake. "...wasting money on them is ludicrous." But those who are spending the money may not consider it ludicrous if even only because they can afford to spend such money on their Music Reproduction System. "A great example of this recently was when I A/B'd two CD Players from the same manufacturer, the Vincent CD-S8 & Vincent CD-S7DAC, both very fine sounding CD Players. I placed some Silver XLR's (which sounded nice on the CD-S8 but sounded "too bright" on the CD-S7DAC).If Vincent included these with all their CD Players, there would be some disappointed CD-S7DAC owners who've paid for a cable that doesn't match well." But if there was a difference in the audible performance of the cables when used with in the context of a Music Reproduction System then that is all that really matters here. What you call too bright might be just right for someone else when used in they're Music Reproduction System and worth every penny of the cost of acquiring the cables. "And it doesn't need to cost a king's ransom. " What you call a king's ransom may be a trivial expense to me and increasingly based upon what you write here that is very likely the case. I have one cable in my system that cost many thousands of US dollars and to me it is worth every single cent of the cost. For you it's insane probably because it would be a year's worth of rent to you but just a minor expense to someone such as myself and many others that I know of for they're Music Reproduction System. |
