Hearing is believing?........power cables.......

OK - I’ve read many of the entries in "page 2" of this thread and figured I’d throw in my 2 cents worth.

AND - I apologise for the long post, but cables are complicated.

First let me state: I cannot "prove" the science in the following post, but I rely on my ears to tell me when improvements are observed.

The metrics I use to gauge improvements are
- Dynamic performance (i.e. faster, more snap to percussion instruments
- bass depth
- bass control
- clarity (i.e. resolution)
- image (i.e. more spacious and enveloping)

in the last 3-4 years I’ve experimented with power cables and IC’s and mostly with unconventional cable geometries.

What prompted this journey? ...
- I was installing a two-way light switch and tested each conductor with a digital multi-meter. One of the conductors that should have provided a reading of zero was actually registering a reading of around 38 volts.

I decided to try my analogue meter as a backup - it confirmed there was a voltage, but only 13 volts. The digital multi-meter had a higher internal resistance, hence the larger voltage.

I consulted the web and found this is a common occurrence on Romex that contains three power conductors (commonly used for this type of lighting application.

The reason is - the power in the live conductor, transfers by induction, noise into adjacent conductors.

Now, it is common knowledge among audiophiles that in order to minimize noise transfer by induction you do not allow cables to run in parallel and close together.

So with this in mind I decided to try a braided cable geometry.
- the conductors are cris-crossed, so it should minimized induced noise

I first tried braiding three Romex conductors and found that cable outperformed a stock power cable. But romex cannot stand flexing - so it was not a good choice - so I tried a 12 gauge extension cable - it outperformed the Romex

Figuring conductor purity would make a significant improvement I then tried braiding the conductors from a piece of Bulk DH labs Power Plus cable.
Due to the vastly superior copper used this cable provided significant improvement in the metrics listed above. It even outperformed a piece of heavily screened Furutech bulk power cable having the same connectors.

After a lot of thought I then developed the Helix design in this link
http://image99.net/blog/files/be8de0c383c5434907610d6b55049e69-75.html

The improvements are the best I’ve experienced to date.

I then decided to try the same helix geometry on my interconnects
http://image99.net/blog/files/4127b5fe2694586e383104364360373b-74.html

They also provided amazing improvements in sound quality.

So why do they work?

With the helix design
- the neutral and ground conductors cross the live conductor at almost 90 degrees - which I believe virtually eliminates the transfer of noise within the cable

For power cables, having noise on the neutral side of the cable would impact the ability of the power supply to provide good clean power to the attached circuit - "dirty power" impedes performance

For Interconnects - If you look at a circuit diagram of an amp...
- the signal wire of the IC connects to the input
- the neutral connects to the ground side of the component

If noise is present on the neutral conductor of conventional interconnect cable it would affect the neutral side of the component and impact the performance of the components it is connected to because the neutral side now has noise on it.

But consider this, noise from one component can also flow to the neutral side of a connected component, causing it to perform at less than optimum

So all both cases - having a noise free neutral provides better sound quality.

So do all conventional cables (i.e. those with conductors that are adjacent to each other) suffer from induce noise? - I believe so.

They certainly do not perform as well a either braided, helix or tight twist variants in my listening tests.

What some companies do to get better performance...
- braiding - Kimber Cables - not so effective as the above
- higher quality conductors and thicker insulation - the majority of companies use this method
- different sized conductors - generally a larger gauge neutral line is used - now becoming more popular
- tight twists - it reduces noise very well

More advanced cable geometries are being developed all the time
- but the simplest and most effective DIY geometries I’ve used to date are simple braids and the helix design.

When I installed the helix design across my system, not only did the sound quality exceed what I thought was capable with my components, but each component ran several degrees cooler than with the stock cables.

I also use quality conductors...
- for power cables I use DH Labs Power Plus for the live conductor
- for IC’s I use a solid silver signal conductor and a larger gauge high quality copper neutral conductor.

Both Braiding and Helix geometries would appear to minimize the inductance and capacitance values of the cables, but that also depends on the insulation properties of conductors used.

I've also noticed that the more affordable components show the most improvements - I have concluded that this is due to the lower quality power supplies that is often used.
- My amp has a large toroid transformer, so the improvements are marginal
- My Node 2 has a smaller transformer, but the cable seems to allow it to perform to a higher level

FYI - I’ve compared my cables to some very expensive commercial products and I have yet to find a better cable.

If you are not an advanced DIY’er I would recommend the Braided approach. It’s easy and more affordable than the helix and will provide a high quality alternative to commercial products.

That’s my journey in a nutshell  :-)

There were many more variants, but this post is already way too long   

Regards - Steve

Randy-11 - my ears let me know when improvements have been achieved because I hear nuances in the music that I recall from a lifetime playing musical instruments, namely - Piano, drums, electric guitar acoustic guitar, 12 string guitar bass guitar, mandolin harmonica and drums.

When my system responds in a manner that more accurately portrays my memory of those instruments, then I believe it is performing better.

I believe relying on what your memory recalls from actually playing instruments is a far better method to gauge system accuracy and improvements than a blind test.

There are subtleties like...
- the complex harmonics of the piano
-the speed (i.e. dynamics) of percussion instruments
- the complexities produced as the bow hits a stringed instrument
- the sound that a guitar players nails makes as they pluck the strings
- the complex sounds a slide makes on a Dobro guitar
- the spitting sounds that brass players tend to make
- the complex breathing of Oboe and clarinet players
- the mind blowing rangeand complexity of a pipe organ
- and many many more

When a cable allows my system to reproduce those nuances better than another cable then I have heard an improvement - i.e. I trust my ears

As I stated above - I cannot "prove" the science - but then neither can a blind test

Regards

Todd - Thanks for the support, it's nice to know the cables perform well on other systems

 I think you will be pleased with the performance of a Helix power cable on your pre-amp. It should allow it to deliver considerably more details due to improved clarity. At least that is what I have found with source components. Since the signals in a pre-amp are comparatively small, I consider them a "cousin" to a source.

Having a Helix IC between the pre-amp and the main amps would also work wonders - why don't you try one :-)

The Helix cables work together to ensure the neutral side of the entire system stays at zero volts and noise free - hence allowing it to operate to the best of its abilities.

Keep me posted - I would appreciate knowing how things turn out.

Cheers

hddg - Hearing the difference between cables may not come easy to some members and often comes only after many hours of listening.

Some people believe they should be able to hear a difference immediately, which is often not the case.

I've lost count of the number of posts where a member has not heard what they expected from a cable  after only a couple of hours of listening.

Many of the cables I have reviewed require over 100 hours of operation just for them to get over a significant dip in their performance, after which their true abilities are revealed 

My own personal journey involved many hundreds of hours or listening and making mental notes as to what a cables reveals about a single track played over and over.

I now have a playlist of around 40 tracks that I turn to when evaluating any piece of the audio chain. each track has been listened too over 100 times - so I know them intimately

They each have their own specialised "audio signature" - like
- dynamics and control
- image and space
- details and clarity

Also, I can see why people do not hear differences, as often they are listening only for one thing - e.g. perhaps they have read a cable will enhance bass depth. If that is not "heard" then the cable had no impact on them, even thought the improved clarity in the upper register was superior.

People tend to talk of the benefits of a new cable, when in fact it is the short comings of the cable that they replaced that is responsible for the improvements encountered

But it is through threads like this one where people take the time to explain what they are hearing, that others will learn what to listen for and what to expect when we talk about things like allowing cables to burn in.

That is how I learned what to listen for - reading the many informative posts here and then going to my system and listening for those traits.

You mentione that perhaps they do not have a decent system - i can easily demonstrate what power cables can do with my $300 mini system. So I believe no system is beyond good cables - you just have to get the right cables.

However, I do agree that the listener has to be willing to accept that there will be a difference and be prepared to listen more intently to the entire spectrum of audio in order to discern what those differences are - whether they be good or bad.

As for the "trolls" - I tend to ignore those that post negative comments about the effectiveness of cables - I am quite happy to let them live in their own ignorance.

As for the rest of us - we can learn so much from each other so that's who I focus on.

Anyway - I'm glad you are with us on the "enlightened path".

Most of my comments in this post are actually for the benefit of those members that are straddling that "Troll Fence" and are thinking about coming out.

Regards - Steve

Todd - Since you have the KLE Innovations RCA’s on an existing IC, I would encourage you to try them on a Helix geometry.

I had originally installed the Silver Harmony onto a pair of Stager Silver Solids - a great commercial Tight-twist IC for a really good price. The Harmony RCA’s elevated the Stager’s to another level of performance.

But my experiments with the Helix got the better of me. The Helix V is the culmination of about two years of development and listening. Its predecessors employed CAT5/6 - so you could start there.

The greatest attribute of the Helix V is their ability to recreate the venue space around the artist - and also me - the listener.

A comment from my neighbor - "so how many speakers do you have hooked up?"
- Needless to say he was amazed at the answer. 

I’ve stopped listening for bass depth, control, clarity, etc. - all the traditional metrics - I now listen for - reality and sense of space.

Unfortunately one IC is unable to accomplish this completely on its own - but replacing the IC between your main amp(s) and pre-amp is a great place to start.

You are well on your way with the PC’s - now you’ve done that, the IC’s will allow your components to really show their stuff!. If your experience is anything like my own - you are in for a treat.

I hope this post has peeked your curiosity (shame on me) :-)

One other factor that can impact the sound of these cables is the listening room and any applied treatments - which may well require some tweaking.

As before - keep me posted - especially if they don’t pan out as expected.

Cheers - Steve

Todd - if you do try the CAT5/6 Helix version
- use two twisted pair (i.e. 4 conductors) for the Neutral - leave twisted
- one twisted pair for the "floating shield" and only connect it at the source end - leave twisted
- one single piece of CAT5/6 conductor for the signal conductor (i.e. one strand, not a twisted pair)

That should give you some great results for very little outlay

Once you are convinced and want to step up - follow the formula on my web site

I’ve tried several permutations but having a thicker gauge neutral seems to pay dividends - but I’m not sure why yet.

Regards...

Nonoise, I think that if those that do hear a difference can explain exactly what differences were heard, then those people that have a hard time believing, will actually take the time to listen more intently from that point on.

Personally I find no value in phrases such as "the veil has been lifted". It tells me nothing

I think that for the most part, many of the cables on the market i.e.  within each specific "snack bracket",   provide a similar level of performance to the untrained ear and so no improvements due to cables were observed

Personally, I have a collection of tracks that I use to assess component performance and I have found that not all the tracks have always highlighted improvements. So listening to just those tracks would make it seem that there is no improvement. 

Over time the tracks in that list has changed dramatically, but even now I still find other tracks that highlight a specific aspect of a cables performance, so I add it to the playlist.

It's no different from any other obsession, golf, cars, photography, etc. etc.

At least we get to choose to comment or not.:-)

Cheers

Todd - I hear ya (LOL) 

I just finished a 9ft extension cable...

- LIVE: 9ft of DH Labs Power Plus
http://www.silversonic.com/docs/products/PowerPlus.html

- NEUTRAL: 3 x 24 ft -14 gauge conductors - Cryo Mil-Spec silver plated stranded Copper 
https://www.takefiveaudio.com/products/1097-mil-spec-14-awg-silver-plated-copper-cryo-treated-green

- GROUND: 12 gauge Teflon.Copper (home Depot.)

The ground and the neutral conductors provide close to 100% coverage of the live conductor, so it is very well shielded.

The three 14 gauge neutral conductors were coiled onto the rod all at once, but for a cable that long you need a 6ft rod. I had to lay the three neutral conductors out down a hallway to prevent tangles

My thumbs were numb after that, even though I used gloves.

The three 14 awg neutral conductors are equal to a 9 gauge conductor, which makes it a little thicker than the 11awg live conductor. Seems a thicker neutral is the way to go from what I am reading. And it's much easier to wind.

Glad to hear there were mostly positive results, but I agree with your assessment about allowing plenty of time for burn-in - about 50-60 hours should do it, but 100 will be better. The cable should become more mellow, but with much faster dynamics

Did you happen to notice any image improvements - like 
- better 3 dimensional presentation front to back and up and down
- wider image
- image envelopes the listener - i.e. you hear things behind you

You should hear that once you get a Helix IC between the pre/main amps :-)

Keep the updates coming - thanks 

@toddverrone...

You're a pusher!

Sorrrrry - Guilty as charged :-(

I tend to get over enthused about this stuff - I've  seldom had anyone provide feedback on the Helix before

Regards... Steve :-)
 

@toddverone

You’re a pusher!

And if you mean it in the "other sense" - Again - Guilty as charged :-(

Gonna get you hooked on "the Helix" (LOL)

Cheers :-)

Dynaquest4 - WRT 

 audio component manufacturers would surely provide better cables with their equipment

and the same goes for outlets, connectors etc...

However - pretty much all audio components re designed to a "Price Point" and are generally aimed at bettering other components in the same snack bracket.

To include a good Power cable would drive up the cost and ultimately take them out of that snack bracket and lower their competitiveness.

They also realize that people buying their products may also replace that power cable - so why include a good power cable when it will ultimately be discarded. Makes no sense in their eyes.

I actually heard this from one manufacturer - who believe a good power cable was essential to get the best out of their gear

I have conducted many cable upgrades to components priced between $300 and $10.000 and in each case I heard discernible differences.

That does not necessarily mean you would hear those same difference - it meas we all hear things differently - neither one is better - just different. 

e.g. - put me in a room of people and I loose track of the conversation with the person in front of me because of the ambient noise. Whereas my wife can track a single conversation across a full restaurant several tables away - comes in handy at times :-)

We could debate this at length or simply accept, as I do, that there are people that choose to believe cables makes little to no difference and those that do.

I do agree that there is little difference between  many of the cables out there - but some do excel.

Regards - Steve

For my own enlightenment - I would like to understand from members with tube components in their systems...

Have you experienced significant improvements by installing a quality power cables on your tube components - or were the improvements of a more subtle nature ?

I currently have a Solid State rig, but I did own a tube amp a few years ago.
- I do not recall hearing the same level of improvements using that tube amp with a quality power cable that I now hear with my solid state amp.

But then, I did not have the same power cables I have today either. :-)

I'm thinking that perhaps with the higher internal voltages used in Tube gear, the benefits that may be derived from installing a quality of the power cable on solid state components is less of an issue where tubes are concerned? 

Thanks in advance - Steve

@toddverrone and  - @initforthemusic  - thank for the feedback - much appreciated.

Todd - I find that the bigger the transformer in a component then the more subtle the improvements

You mono blocks probably has a very large transformer and lots of caps in the power supply. This would provide very good power to the circuits, so the improvements noticed would be less discernible.

Having said that I found the improvements with a power amp to be less about things like bass improvements, dynamics and image - and more about the improvements in the reproduction of minute venue acoustics and the realism the power amp is allowed to conveyconvey

The power supply in the Tube pre-amp probably benefits more from the quality power cable - allowing for the faster response to transient peaks.

Also, the Helix cable is a very low noise cable, but it also ensures the neutral side of the Pre is as close to zero volts as it can be. Without noise on the neutral side of the circuit ensures the best possible reproduction

Guys - I am not surprised by your observations - they are similar to my own, but they confirm that great cables can be applied to both Tube or solid state and provide the same level of improvement

Many Thanks