The problem is the Clearaudio uses spikes, which is not very good (read, any) isolation from the Delos butcher block. The solution is replace the spikes with three Townshend Pods. Your turntable at 24kg would use 3 Pods, 8kg per Pod, that would be the size C Pods, green on the chart. http://www.townshendaudio.com/hi-fi-home-cinema-equipment-vibration-isolation/seismic-isolation-pods... These are the same ones I use under my turntable, and the improvement is obvious. Besides dramatically lowering the noise floor there is a distinct improvement in clarity and much more tonal or harmonic truth to instruments. Bass is greatly extended and tighter. Jut a huge improvement. Two other guys with similar issues PM’d me and took my advice, with the same great results. I know that’s the right size from doing mine, but never hurts to give John Hannant a call, just be aware the Pods work just as good under amps too and so it may prove to be an expensive call. But then again to transform your system (which it will, it has mine) well worth it. https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisa7140-townshend-audio-seismic-isolation-pods-set-of-4-sizes-a-b... |
or get a HRS base, You can see one in my Casa Pacifica systems page. Select the proper load range. |
Thank you for your help. Follow up question is that if using townshend pods, should I remove the Delos and just use a butcher block and place the pods between the turntable and the butcher block. Also are the spikes on the clearaudio removable?
Alternatively, with the HRS base does it provide better isolation that the Delos. I thought the issue was the standard spikes on the the turntable? Would a VPI Prime solution help in that by placing the spikes in a sorbathane/rubber ring so the spike tip is suspended and the only contact with the base is through the sorbathane ring |
Springs bounce and resonate. Townshend controls this with an ingenious air resistance damper. Without knowing what IsoAcoustics is doing it is hard to say. Probably a solid mass under the Podiums will be best. But you will just have to try both ways to know for sure.
Spikes unscrew. If they are the same thread size and pitch as Pods you luck out. Get a stud and screw the Pods on in place of the spikes. Pods are threaded to allow the top to be turned for height adjustment. Makes turntable leveling a breeze. You could use them that way. At 50 lbs your turntable will be stable on them. But you could also screw them together and still have the height adjustment. Whichever you prefer. Just pointing out options here.
Sorbothane, occasionally you find some place it does what you want. In general though it is so soft it sucks the life right out of the music. A much better material is fO.q tape. This used in the right places will make a huge improvement. But it works on micro- to nano-vibrations primarily midrange and up. The problems you are hearing are much larger amplitude/lower frequency.
Ditch the spikes altogether. I tried a whole bunch of em, used BDR Cones for years. Pods beat them all. No agonizing is it really better, or its better this way but what about that? None of that. Not even close. |
What is the
Delos butcher block sitting on? How stable is the stand it sits on?
I have a ClearAudio Innovation Compact with Universal arm. It sits on a VPI turntable stand filled with sand. On top of that is a butcher block that sits on cones. My turntable sits on the butcher block with no special footers. My setup is dead silent. No rumble or noise if you walk by the stand.
The Innovation turntables have magnetic bearing that should isolate the platter. Where is this rumble coming from, the motor? There could also be some type of problem with the setup.
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Any shelf will vibrate at a certain frequency. Depending upon that frequency, there will be regularly spaced nodes that remain stationary even while the shelf is energized and vibrating. If you can locate those stationary nodes and place the points of your cones directly on those areas, then the cones can provide isolation. But it's very tricky to locate those nodes. Use a stethoscope. Or I suppose it is easier to choose another type of footer.
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Get Symposium Ultra Stealth the best ASAP. |
IME, SRA VR platform under my Woodsong Garrard 301 was a night and day difference. I am sure that there are other excellent devices but Silent Running Audio has 40 patents and three companies. One for Audio, one for Medical/Science and one for Military. If nuclear submarines and CAT machines use them...
The improvements in sound were as profound as any upgrade in my system. I was floored. |
DO Nuclear subs and CAT machines use SRA isolation devices? I’ve been around a lot of electron microscopes, and they don’t. |
Any shelf will vibrate at a certain frequency. Depending upon that frequency, there will be regularly spaced nodes that remain stationary even while the shelf is energized and vibrating. If you can locate those stationary nodes and place the points of your cones directly on those areas, then the cones can provide isolation. But it's very tricky to locate those nodes.
Oh, it's not tricky at all- they are all over the place! Problem is, they move around depending on the frequency. That's not the worst of it. Look how many there are in the midrange frequencies where we are most sensitive! https://youtu.be/WmwnN_T_wW8?t=40 |
I have a friend with the clear audio table and he uses Pneupods by Pnueance Audio. They make special adapters that allow the pnuepods to screw right on the bottom of the table replacing the original feet. You can knock on the platform the table is sitting on and the feet prevent vibration. He hears no thud out of his speakers and has no feedback either. |
Sorry Pneuance audio check music direct |
Have the stock tip toe feet (3) on my music hall mmf-7.3, resting on a butcher block acoustics (maple) 1 3/4 thick isolation platform which rests on 4 rubber bushings which are integral to an Apollo turntable wall shelf. My turntable is as quiet as can be. Black backgrounds and silence during quiet portions of tracks. Albeit, on older worn records, I of course can hear a pop here, a click there etc...thats vinyl for ya. One word of advice, stop tapping and knocking on the turntable or what it rests on! You are of course going to hear something if the volume is raised...you will Never eliminate it totally with whatever gadget they are pushing. Reduced, maybe. Eliminated? Never. Just play your records and stop obsessing. ALL JMO. |
MC, Nodes for vibration should not move around. However, the number of them might go up or down depending upon frequency.
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Hi again Miller
"Springs bounce and resonate. Townshend controls this with an ingenious air resistance damper."
You get it now? Too true pal. Why use springs if have to be damped?
Lostbear: "What is the butcher's block standing on?" +1
As OP has discovered, a butcher's block doesn't have sufficient weight on its own to damp vibration.
OP, if you go mass loading, make sure you have enough mass. Stand the block on something big and heavy. And make sure it's not all standing on a bouncy floor.
If your arrangement doesn't allow a solid floor then you will have to compromise using isolation pads or the like. But you will still get some vibration transmission.
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@arjunm , You really only have two good, sure fire ways around this problem. 1st is a MinusK platform. 2nd is getting a fully isolated , suspended turntable like the SOTA, SME, Basis, Oracle, or Dohmann.
Other less effective solutions exist but if a device does not ask for or accommodate the weight of your turntable forget it. It will not work. To isolate the turntable it has to be suspended by springs with a resonance frequency below 3 Hz. In order to tune the suspension correctly the weight of your turntable needs to be known. The Master Solution is an expensive turntable and would warrant the price of a MinusK platform. They make a low profile one now about $5000. Just a warning, things are going to get a bit bouncy. You get use to it. I will make a significant improvement in sound. Once on the platform absolutely nothing will bother the turntable including jumping up and down and kicking the stand. |
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How about the Vibraplane which has been proven one of the best isolation devices for many many years. Yes there are newer devices that isolate slightly lower in frequency but at significantly more $$$$ YMMV |
I think mass is the key. In my case, I have a little flex in my floor and my system resides in a location that gets a lot of foot traffic. I get zero issues with vibration getting into the playback.
Most of this is because I have a Technics 1200G. It alone weighs 47lbs. Bu I also have a solid oak stand loaded with 300 LPs and a 70lb amp.
Use a piece of marble/granite/concrete. Use better feet. It may just be the sum of marginal gains that solve your problems. |
I think minus K, vibraplane, and Herzan are kissing cousins, business-wise. If you don’t mind an ugly industrial look, herzan platforms with appropriate load capacity can sometimes be found on eBay. For much fewer $$$. |
I agree with whoever said that banging on the plinth or the shelf as a test for isolation is beside the point, at best. |
John at Townshend Audio advised I employ four Seismic Pods in all applications. Being accustomed to using three cones (first the Mod Squad Tip Toe, then the far superior BDR carbon fiber and Golden Sound DH ceramic cones) under everything, I went instead with three.
I discovered that three was generally fine for electronics, and in my case with the Sound Anchor loudspeaker stands bolted onto my 5’ tall planars (two in front, one in the rear, with the rear having twice the weight capacity rating of the two in front. Logical, right?). But for my turntables, four was much more stable than three. With three, the fairly-high mass plinths and platters tended to lean one way or the other; with four, as stable as can be. That might not be the case with low-mass tables.
The Pods aren’t cheap, but imo the only designs providing greater isolation are the much more expensive active platforms intended for use under microscopes, mentioned above by lewm. I've seen the Herzan in action, and if I had the dough I’d buy a dozen! The ingenious design element in the Pod (courtesy of Max Townshend) is the generally-misunderstood damping provided by the rubber sleeve and air release valve that are built around the inner spring. Watch the YouTube videos in which Max explains and demonstrates the design and effectiveness of his creation. Then all will be clear. |
The rationale for using only three footers under any single piece of gear is that three points define a plane. Whereas when you add a fourth point you don’t necessarily have a plane. Hence the device can rock back-and-forth on any two of its 4 points. Or, one of 4 is not bearing its share of the mass which shifts a greater than average burden to another bearing. I agree that mounting a 100 pound turntable on three points is a bit scary, but it does give confidence that the turntable is nesting on a plane. After that it’s relatively easy to level the device by adjusting the height of one footer. |
I highly recommend (via my own experience) the Symposium Acoustics products. They make a platform specific for turntables and to solve the very problem that you describe. It's called the Segue ISO. There are several standard sizes to choose from and also they can be made to order in a specific size of your choosing. There are springs on the underside of the platform and you can choose to have the correct springs for the weight of your turntable. The platform performs at it's best when combined with Symposium Acoustics Rollerblock products. Those would be in place of your spiked feet. Contact the company and speak with Peter (company president/owner). He is extremely knowledgeable and helpful and will steer you properly. The products are fairly priced and deliver an outstanding performance value.
Symposium Acoustics: (symposiumusa.com)
Best to you on your quest. |
I would make sure that your tonearm and table are properly grounded and that you put it on an isolated wood stand with soft feet .
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Several "solutions have been mentioned which are really not.
Mass will not isolate a turntable from anything. It will just lower the frequency it bounces at. A massive table on a bad floor will skip just as much, sometimes worse than a light one. Concrete floors will protect you from foot fall problems but not from "house rumble." Even on a concrete floor you can feel the cement truck trundle down the street. Wall shelves might protect you from foot fall problems but they will make a lot of other problems worse. Walls vibrate like crazy and pass it right on to the turntable. Just play and song with strong bass and put your hand on the wall. Many have wound up with feedback problems. The only sure fire solution is a properly isolated turntable with a suspension tuned below 3 Hz. I would never consider a turntable without a proper suspension. If you really love the turntable you can always put a MinusK suspension under it. Sonically you can not do better. It is not the most user friendly solution.
With turntables like the Sota the suspension is internal floating a sub chassis. You can rest your hand on the plinth no problem. With tables like the SME and one sitting on a MinusK platform if you put your hand down on the plinth the whole thing starts bouncing. The SME is at least well damped. The Dohmann has an internal MinusK system and is bouncy but for certain is one of the very best sounding turntables made and the only one at this time I would opt for over the Sota if I could afford it. |
