Uberwaltz, it is not a pointless thread if it helps some understand the realities of the current market. The 'give to charity" is always a nice option. They will of course usually turn it over at the fast sale market price. (And an occasional lucky audiophile will benefit along with the charity) Occasionally a group home, community service for the aged or arts oriented charity might use equipment as is.
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60% does seem like a huge discount (for a few months old item), but if nobody wants to buy it, it is too expensive for some reason. If it were something I wanted, I would jump on it for sure, but 60% off of something I am not desperate for is just 40% of wasted money no matter how fantastic the item is. I think people see it that way. |
Typical summer lull.....seen pretty much the same thing for the past 20 years. However, I wouldn't argue if somebody showed numbers indicating a general overall down trend based on many of the folks here having matured their systems and less younger people picking up the slack at the lower price points. I suspect overall volume is down although sales in dollars may not be down much since prices in general seem higher than they were 10 years ago. It would be fun to see Audiogon post metrics such as numbers of sales, average dollars per sale, and overall trading volume in dollars. |
I also agree with the pricing comments above. I look at the ads at least once a week to see what is new. I see way too many sellers milking it for all it's worth. If I am not going to get a decent discount, I just look for the best deal I can get and buy new. I definitely don't believe that stereo is dying. People have loved music since music first started being performed. There's just not many alternatives to stereo. You could watch music live, but concerts are few and far between, and have you seen the price of tickets these days? |
Maybe speaking for myself but I am not talking about older " vintage" gear at all. I am seeing equipment that is less than 4 months old not even getting a look in at 40% of new. Crazy. Its a great time to be a buyer and I am also a very shrewd shopper so I know I did not pay over the odds for anything I have. But in the last couple months it has tanked so badly I truly think is not worth listing anything here any more. Audiogon latest site rehash may have adversely effected sales but it is same on eBay and audiomart for hifi. |
May be a down trend in selling audio gear. However there will always be a market for mint vintage gear especially thr hi end or impossible stuff to find. A case in point would be the TOTL Yamaha CR 3020 Receiver at 170 wpc or the technics sa 1000 Receiver 330 wpc as well as the Kenwood supreme seperates 700 M amp 170 wpc and thr 700 C preamp. I believe the market especially for the hi wattage monster receivers will always be there. Oh yes forgot the Pioneer Sx 1980 and the Sansui 33000 G Receiver |
Audio products age....to dysfunction and minimal value. Tube heat damages things. Caps age out.. Resistors crack. Speaker composition ages. I will buy great older equipment IF it is cheap enough to justify the parts and time for eventual needed restoration. But the state of the art of new "cheaper high end" ( not talking mass crap) really is great for the money. There really IS tech progress for the money. Just like with cars. So unless you just LOVE the old mojo of an old McIntosh (or Porsch/GTO), and this is a very tiny group at least with the bucks, the prices aked just do not compute. Like others say, it is just the market. Oh yes. The ridiculous claims and pseudo science are part of what has turned off potential newer younger audiophiles. I talk to them a lot in my job and hobby life. Comes home to roost. |
I'm offering a like new, current model, Accuphase preamp with the optional phono for 65% below US retail. The offers I get aren't absurd but are so low that I'd buy the unit again, even though I already have one. ;) I chalk it up to summer distractions and the fact that there aren't that many folks who can afford to drop more than 10K on a preamp. So, I have to be patient and wait for the right buyer to come along. |
The best solution for not losing money on our precious stereo systems through resale would be to save up for whatever dream system floats your boat..set it up,sit back and forget all the audio hype involved in this hobby and enjoy the pleasurable rewards of 'y-o-u-r' high performance stereo system. It will never be perfect..there does not exist such an animal ! Oh !!! And the most important part is to never visit this or any other audio site for fear that your dream system is no longer good enough for your needs [you know..all those bogus manufacturer claims out there that are blatantly false]. Lust is a very powerful mindset [ think.. audio,woman,cars or whatever ] and if you continue on a journey of that nature.. you will surely lose money 'every time' you go to fulfil that wanton desire.How many of us here have lost a ton of money over our desires of the flesh? As the song goes...'don't worry..be happy'.. and enjoy the gift of music that moves us all to want it so much in our very short lives. |
pcrhkr, I am also puzzled who and why would buy used $400 000 speakers on a website like this, but it does not hurt that they exist here. On the other hand, not everything is in that stratosphere on Audiogon. There are amplifiers for $150 and a number of things in that, relatively low, range. Granted, it may not be what you really want at that moment, but it does exist. And if someone in the USA wants to have $60 000 amplifier running on wrong voltage shipped from Europe, so be it. He probably knows why. |
Audiogon - With a set of speakers on sale you never have heard for $100,000 I would think sales are slow. Bring out the weird Tuba speakers and see how much $$$ you can get for them. 50K, $1,000,000 I love high end Audio but there comes a point of practicality. Is Audiogon for the Audio enthusiast? Audiophile? or only for the rich? It seems only for the Millionaires or billionaires could afford most of what I see here. Trying to rub it in? We less fortunate folks love music and love great sounding gear too just as much as anyone else. Perhaps I will someday have a dream receiver or Amp that would be consider garbage here. Oh, How about those $6,000 pair of 10ft speaker cables? HOG WASH! Will they sound better of they are 24K solid Gold? Or do they need to register at 90% pure to sound best? |
"Maybe everyone else is like me, too much gear and generally happy with their sound." Reading these posts, I doubt it is everyone, but at least there is two of us. It is interesting to see that people are actually buying and selling a lot (relatively). A poster with a dozen speakers bought in just a few years. That is wonderful and dedication to the hobby, but the pool of people that do that is probably limited. It would be a new pair of speakers every few months. I dread moving mine even for vacuuming the floor around them, much less carrying them somewhere and bringing new ones in. When it comes to prices we should not forget that this hobby is really about equipment. As much as we can drool over some piece and have emotional attachment to it with all the lovely words attached, once we decide to sell it, it is nothing but a piece of junk we are trying to get rid of. It may be sad, but it is how the rest of the world sees it. If nobody wants to pay more than 33% for it, those who may appreciate our lovely piece may not be in love with it quite yet. Unless they buy it for that 33%, they will never fall in love. Maybe the "fair" price level has simply been reset from, let’s say, 50% to 30%. There is a new kid in town and he does not care about our feelings. |
The high-end audio community might learn something from the way sports cards are traded online. Sure, there are still direct auction site sales, but more and more traders are listing through reliable 3rd party resellers who receive, review, and inventory the cards and conduct the sales transaction, then send the seller the proceeds. Prices are established by the re-seller, so they have the ability to control risks and make a reliable profit. It's a lot like selling on consignment. The seller will generally take 10% – 15%. It certainly is easier to do this with a product that slips into an envelope, but it may be a viable option for bulkier items as well. |
The nature of any free market includes cycles. Just as the stock market will lurch and gyrate, so too do the prices of audio equipment rise and fall. No single snapshot in time can be used to evaluate the overall health of any market. Those who act on those snapshots are almost always losers in the market. |
Agreed. I put a piece up recently and did not get a whiff of interest, not even lowball offers, even after dropping the price 25%. I also look at a lot of gear for sale I'd love to buy but don't have room for, and it just sits there unsold. Maybe everyone else is like me, too much gear and generally happy with their sound. Selling on audio mart and waiting a few extra weeks for the sale is looking more and more attractive. |
To answer the question more directly though, I think the slowdown could be contributed to the baby boomers entering into retirement and being a bit more judicious with their spending. I'm a divorced 40 year old with a teenager and a tween and have made a few major purchases just recently. I had left my system largely untouched for two years. When I go to the audio shows the demographic is still by far the baby boomer bunch. When I tell my contemporaries about my listening system and prices, they nearly fall over and need resuscitation. They think I am nuts! They think nirvana comes in the shape of a Bose soundbar. I do think that there is a younger (like in their twenties) that are now getting into the vinyl seen and are curious about getting a stereo setup. I recently sold a set of speakers locally to a college student. So there might be hope; if these young folks can get well paying jobs after university. |
I sold my items, Zesto Andros Phono and Sanders Sound ESL II Amp, pretty quickly. Within 4 or 5 days of my posting date. I did have them priced right and accepted offers that were somewhat less than I wanted. The fees on here are much higher than a few years ago! I'm thinking Ebay might be cheaper now. I had another item to sell, a preamp, but decided to trade it in for a new DAC. I think the trade in credit was more generous then what I might be able to fetch on here due to the final value fees, shipping, insurance and Paypal fees. |
It also comes down to how satisfied you are with your system and if you really think something else will make a significant improvement in your system to buy something different. I remember buying and selling amps and preamps years ago to see how I could improve my system based upon stereo magazine reviews, other peoples opinions, etc. What I came away with is that all that did not matter until I could hear a component in my system and judged for myself. I fell off that game when I took the time to build my own components and found out how parts and components interacted in different systems. Living in the NYC area there are so many audio clubs that I would borrow and hear stuff in my own system. I also repair audio components so I could hear those components in my system and also started to understand how parts upgrades or modifications changed the sound. Once I began understanding how to change the sound, it was much easier from there to achieve the sound I wanted for my system or in some other persons system. I built a preamp with a selector switch so that you could change the output resistors (5 different ones) with the switch. Almost like changes cables but with a switch. That was a lot of fun see peoples faces including my own expression as you turned the selector. That is how I learned what worked and sounded better consistently. So if your item is not selling, there is probably a reason maybe what you did not like or what did not work in your system, it not something someone else is really looking for? Happy Listening. |
I don't buy into the statement that digital has killed sales, heck we have had digital for years or would you have us believe it has only snapped into focus the last couple of months? Also while I agree people ate more cautious with their discretionary spending its not gone altogether just not going on hifi. I have been at this game a long time and it has never been as dire as the last few months, nothing to do with pricing it right unless your idea of pricing it right is 33% of new for a 9/10 status item which is just crazy. People are spending in other areas. I listed all my daughters pro audio gear on eBay, everything sold within 3 days inc some expensive guitars and amps. Now did I sell at give away pricing? Heck no, more like just above fair market value, something that is not existing in the current used hifi market right now. Sad state of affairs. |
I think something else you have to look at is shipping cost, exchange rate on dollar buying from the states and duty coming in to Cananda. I know I've bought amps from california and the shipping cost was only 90 dollars to Canada. Another guy in Chicago wanted 260 dollars for an amp weighing around the same as the amp i purchased in California. When someone is trying to make up on the shipping what they couldnt get fro their equipment that really ticks me off to the point where I lose interest in their product |
I’ll go with the price analogy. I’ve tried several times to purchase a cary audio DMS-500 and made a fair offer on each one only to have the owner cling to the platinum level MSRP pricing - even though the benefits are non-transferable. In other words 60% - 70% of the MSRP. Newp .. was even cursed at. I purchased a pair of carver crimson tubes from a seller here and some telefunken tubes to use with it. The seller even gave me his number and took the time to explain the ins and outs of the amplifiers and the tubes...along with the other items he had for sale. I mulled over it for a couple of months ... and because he didn’t treat me as dick .. i bought them and will continue to buy from him as time permits. I did the same thing with a pair of JBL Everest DD67000 everest speakers. A few wouldn’t even give me the time of day. BTW .. im 40 and love music.. 2 channel... HT .. love it all ..and now my wife does too. Part of the experience - a big part of the experience is the conversation. Part of this industry is ruining it for newer blood ... these "old guys" talk down to those that want to use an OPPO205 for sacd for instance. WTF ... SACD died because 26 people which purchased 20k dollar sacd players don't buy enough SACD for record companies to justify manufacturing them. These are the people that need to go away. |
Interesting. I normally purchase items on Audiogon, US & Canuck Audio Marts (CAM), and even eBay. Selling, I usually just list on CAM. Checking my history, most of my purchases occur about 50/50 on CAM/USAM or eBay. Most of the time I'm not in a hurry, so I just wait for a good price. However, items that list for a good price sell very fast, often within a day or two. Usually I'm too slow to buy these, and kick myself that I didn't act quickly. In other words, they sell before I complete my due diligence. The three items I listed on CAM in March all sold within 3 weeks. All three went to local buyers. So my experience is that price and local sales are huge factors. I also agree that the market is shrinking, i.e. demand is shrinking. So that implies you will have to lower your price expectations when selling. |
well I'm 48 and entered the audiophile on a fluke about five years ago. I have loved my journey, learning about tubes and vintage gear mostly, and am lucky to have the disposable income to have bought a dozen pair of speakers and amps in that time (a couple on the 'gon). But I can say this; all my friends and family think I'm nuts. I was able to pass on some equipment to my brother-in-law (at super good prices), but other than that, none of my contemporaries are interested in HEA. The ones who can afford it are content with Onkyo/Denon or more interested in streaming and built in sonos. Almost no one has the ears for good sound now; they're listening to youtube through earbuds. (though many of my friends have learned to listen to vinyl at my place). In the pre-internet era audiophilia was a legit hobby, but the TV won and now we're just a nation of idiots. And, of course, half the few new audiophiles are content with quite affordable Chinese gear. |
It’s the Peter Principle. Agon leadership had taken a system that worked, was fair, easy to navigate and cost-effective for sellers.......and decided to change all that. They have risen to their level of incompetence and taken all the aforementioned qualities away. Unhappy sellers equal fewer ads, fewer ads equal fewer buyers, fewer buyers equal lower price ceiling, and on and on. |
You really have to base your prices off of what other folks have listed in the past. Most everyone goes to hifishark.com and does this quick research. If I want to buy a product that is listed for $1300 and I see that a mint one sold and was listed for $900, there is no real point in offering $900 as the seller will be insulted. |
In my industry the old saying was “your first loss is your best loss”. Meaning that insulting offer you turned down won’t look so bad 8 months from now when you are still sitting with unused equipment while it ages. Which really bothers some owners because their rationale is “just listen to it, it sounds great!”. And by extension, it MUST be worth more. From a different angle, if I buy a speaker new, and 5 months later the manufacturer introduces an update version, my older version drops in perceived value even more than just depreciation. But aside from manufacturers of real quality (Bryston 20 year unconditional warranty), other manufacturers HAVE to keep introducing upgrades or new models to generate interest and sales. But the key to it all is the market size. If more new people come in at different price levels (depending on their disposable $) then they feed off the new and used market. So they generate purchases as they climb for better equipment and generate sales of used stuff when they tire of it. So long as there is a buying pool, there is enough demand to keep the resale values in order. Which is the scary reality I suspect is going on...I have cases of movies on VCR tapes. I can lower my price to zero and it won’t sell. |
I agree with Grannyring 100%. i have a pair of current Monitor Audio speakers and stands listed at 50% of retail and no takers, and another pair of Spendors at about 40% of their original retail price, again no takers. Both are 9/10 condition. I have done this for over two decades and the market has never been this weak, never. BTW, I am 65 so I also agree folks like me are a dying breed. |
If someone offers less than what we think the item we are selling is worth, keep it. Obviously, it is more worth to us than to the potential buyer. Why would those buyers offering less be talked bad about? They simply know what something is worth to them. No harm done. We can always wait for a buyer that will think higher about the item we are selling. Maybe she/he does come along. If not, well, maybe $1500 was actually not that bad two years ago when we got that offer. Also, how many of us go to the grocery store and give an offer on milk? Why do we expect that a buyer has to make an offer? Isn’t it the seller who has to know what she/he is willing to part from the possession for? What do people do with old cars? Keep them? |
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Some of the people on this site think there OLD equipment is GOLD.If you price it right it will sell.Like Lower your asking price.Please i see people here with cazy high prices.Especially you guys selling your old Cds !!!!! There used you want $10 or more and $5 shipping lol....i look and laught .Albums to $50 for a Frank Sinatra album please . |
As in other areas, Digital Kills. The audiophile obsession grew from the belief that there was magic embedded in the record groove, which justified medical-quality equipment to extract the very small ore, and of course you needed something with the mass of Hoover Dam as a stable base for the delicate instruments. Stylus shapes, Zen-like Japanese catridge designers, jewelry quality arms were all marshalled to extract the minute signal, which needed to be equalized, pre-amplified, and passed through more special instruments and cables to the speaker. Being analog, there was always "better" and forever getting halfway nearer to the absolute. What glorious obsession and joy in that. But alas, digital is just there, everywhere, all 1's and 0's and emotes so loudly it has to be attenuated, and just soul-killing efficient like so many other areas that digital conquers. |
I am afraid I would have to disagree about pricing it right, I am sure a LOT of people here already have priced their items at less than they are traditionally worth and still not even tirekickers are coming out. Now I did have a good laugh this morning, my 9.5 out of 10, $3600 speakers I have listed at $1499 got an offer.....of $500.Sort of says it all really. If that is the state then you can gladly add me to the list of "i wont sell at X" |
I hold a real estate license and have often told sellers three things make your property sell: 1) people have to know your property is for sale; 2) it has to be presented in its best condition; 3) it has to be priced correctly. You can get the first two right and it won’t sell. Get the third right and it will. Anyone who wants to sell an audio item and says “I simply won’t sell it for X” is a victim of my third observation. The market simply doesn’t care. Now, fair enough that certain items might time to find the right buyer and patience is required, but otherwise price determines the velocity of the sale. You can always sell to the Music Room in Boulder, CO—I have many times—and you’ll avoid tirekickers and returns. But you might be surprised by how much your beloved item is worth. Recently I’ve purchased some Joseph Audio Pulsars and a REL S2 subwoofer. I think I made a good purchase (prices paid) but I’m savvy enough to think when I sell (no! These are the last speakers I’ll ever buy!), that accepting that if I achieve 80% of my purchase price that’s acceptable. So buy at 50% and sell at 40%? Reasonable. |
From a buyer's perspective the slow-down has largely selected out smaller, less well marketed companies because the prospect of reselling them is awful. Also the asking price for some models of electronics is incredibly high, higher than what they used to be in days of more frequent trading, and I commonly see the same items re-listed over a period of months with no change in price. I would never make an offer in that circumstance. The problem for is there is no longer decently established price, making buying with the potential to resell risky. |
Funny observation, from the people that have engaged in conversation about the preamplifiers in the ad, totaling 4 people at this time, some 30 hours into it, not a single one have been willing to make an offer. Everyone so far want me to name a price, that they then presumably can turn down. The ball is in the other court if they name a price which if I accept, then they are somewhat obligated to buy :-) although they probably would find a way out of that too. Actually had that happen one time a few years back had a set of amplifiers listed for $4K, guy asked me whats the best price - told him to make offer - he offered $2500 which I accepted - he then stated I thought you'd say no :-) Have stumbled over this ad a few times - a completely different approach, its been up a three or four months, this one surely will be a hard sale too. https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis92f63-krell-evolution-600e-mono-blocks-as-new-solid-state Good Listening Peter |
https://www.abposters.com/posters/pink-floyd-back-catalogue-v157?gclid=CjwKCAjw14rbBRB3EiwAKeoG_1jUY... The plain poster is available here - I had mine professionally framed at Aron Brothers for about $200 I seem to remember. Uberwaltz - that was the one intent of the Ad - although should I get a reasonably serious offer like a 40% to 50% of MSRP I'd probably take it Good Listening Peter |
Unfortunately I thought entirely the opposite of pbn ad. All it seems to have done is to confirm the lunacy rampant in this hobby right now as afar as idiot "buyers" are concerned. I would say that while yes it garnered a lot of views it did not generate a sale and just dragged the crazies out of hiding and wasted a day of his time with nothing to show for it besides sadness at the state of things. Just me view..... |
