Wolf, you just put a smile on my face. Love that post, lol.
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It's always better to read and accept the opinions of experts regarding the sound of your gear rather than listening to the gear yourself and deciding what you like. What you like could be in fact not what many of the experts like, and thusly not good for you or the world in general. The safest thing to do is to NOT listen to your system at all as you could be at risk of enjoying something that isn't actually enjoyable, and that, clearly, is not worth the risk. |
Nutty.....I have been looking for speaker cables that could really do justice with my system......my headphones always sounded way better. I had Cardas, Audioquest, WmLowe Signature, Wireworld, etc....all top of the line editions. For the halibut, I was recommended Clear Day Cables. When I talked to Paul at Clear Day, he sent me an audition pair without charge...."just give it a listen" he told me. The instant I heard them, it was a deal. I got a bi-wire pair of his double shotgun and am really happy with the openness, the solid bass, the huge dynamics...all the right stuff. Call Paul - no pressure- it just might be the cables you're looking for. I'm just a happy customer...no ties at all to Clear Day. |
Dave, sorry, lol. I've been called unreasonable by way too many over my lifetime, lol. I can argue if you want, lol. I often just hang out on the boards to find ridiculous comments by folks who have never been in a certain situation, but are more than willing to offer their professional advice, lol. I'm not a professional, but at least I get out often to many places and listen to components so I have an idea of what I like and what I don't. I just try not to forget that we all hear so differently. |
First off we should all listen before buying. I was all bout MIT when I had my Quicksilver/Proac system. It was years. I'm actually shipping my 330 shotgun CVT cables out tomorrow as I finally decided to sell them. Bruce B actually rewired my preamp with his internal wire many years ago. He among others make some great cables. No doubt, but I liked the AQ cables much better with my Vandersteen/Ayre system. I did listen to bi wire vs single vs the bi wire within ONE cable. I wasn't able to afford the second set of Castle Rock to do a true bi wire, but I'm about to pull that trigger. I noticed a nice difference, however I also feel that upgrading components usually makes a bigger difference than upgrading cables (dollar per dollar). For those who make a claim that bi wiring is BS, you have no credibility. For you it obviously didn't work, but some systems are designed to be bi wired and it does make a nice difference. Dave, it's all good. I do listen to Richard a lot. He makes a ton of sense and I trust him. That said, I have my own ears. He and I seem to like similar sounds. It wasn't like that years ago and I didn't want Vandersteens. I listen differently now than I used to. I have heard differences for years IRT bi wiring. I have heard lesser cables with a true double run sound much better than a 5k single wiring with jumpers. That's just me, but I'm sure a ton don't hear a difference. |
more expensive cable price, doesn't necessarily mean better performance. You must hear the cable in your own system to know if it helps. If it does...bi-wire if your speakers are designed for it. Use seperate cables for the top and bottom... The cables that have 2 spades on one end and 4 on the other are far less effective. Keep the cables seperated |
Sorry, I was out of line....I apologize. Sometimes I think common sense and experimentation can yield verifiable results without relying to heavily on any one mans gospel. RV is a good egg however, just need to balance sage advice with actual trial and error sometimes to determine if what does it for the adviser delivers for the advisee! |
Nice Dave. I don't need to kiss anyones butt. Been around audio plenty and there are some who's ideas I align with as they make sense. Well before I even liked his speakers, I was into MIT cables. I loved them and even had my Quicksilver preamp fully wired with Brisson's wire and solder. Loved what it did to the sound. Are you upset that folks like his Q&A area on his site? Seems like good business to me. He likes to interact with folks and most like that. I always enjoy meeting designers and listening to why they do what they do. It's the only way to learn as long as you keep an open mind. Doesn't mean I have to agree or like their product, but it's good business. I guess I don't fully understand your problem with folks liking Mr Vandersteen. He's a nice guy who has a passion for audio and he likes to share. Most in our business seem to be that way. |
Are we done kissing RV's tush? Ok, let's all use our own brains and try different methods. I've played the field and have found that Biwiring makes a huge difference if you use a cable that actually is designed for high end performance and not just for connecting electrical appliances together (read wire only). Hopefully your speakers have the terminals feeding seperate crossovers for the low and high frequencies...otherwise forget it! MIT has just such cables....enjoy. |
no romance, how can you make a statement like that? There is so much that goes into any cable that you can't just make a blanket statement like that as fact. The real fact is that any bare wire will start to 'gas' over time and that will degrade the sound tremendously at this level. If you have a strong cold weld like AQ makes along with a top of the line silver dipped spade, your connection is as good as anything else and you won't get the gassing, so it will continue to be a better connection. Other companies have done research on their connections and many are much better over time than bare wire. Just saying |
Yes, Richard has done a great job with that site. I don't know any others who have such a comprehensive Q&A page like that and Richard himself answers the questions. Email, I can't wait to hear the you use in your system. As you know the only thing is using the same length and type for each and every run. |
Disclaimer: I’m a dealer for some of the products mentioned. I am actually now using a crazy looking short quad wire system after previously running from jumpers/cables off a single wire and feel there is a sonic benefit. 3 of the 4 are bare wire however (insulated with clear pvc tubing) since I wanted to test the setup before springing for 4 sets of cables and was so satisfied I havent gone to expensive cables yet) Both my amps and speakers have dual terminals so I decided to make use of them. (amps are PS audio BKH 300 monos and speakers are TAD CR1) I’m actually running 2 sets of cables off each of the amps terminals. One terminal powers the velodyne subs high level input with another run for the enigmacoustics super tweeter and the other terminal powers the TAD’s mid/high terminal and additional run for the TAD’s woofer terminal. All the (16 Guage?) bare wire is doubled up. I should post a pic of this Frankenstein set up for laughs. At some point I will experiment with 4 sets of short expensive cables to see if they can Improve upon the fine strand bare prototype wire I’m using that I was given to test for manufacturer. |
forget gauge. That doesn't really matter. Geometry and product are more important etc.... Personally I'd try Audioquest or Cardas. Both are nice. AQ is very neutral up and down the range and you need the DBS unit to get the best sound. Type 44 or something like that can be a starting place.. Just look at their site. Cardas can be darker at times. Not a bad thing in high end audio. It's a really nice cable. Don't drive yourself nuts as the cable isn't as big a difference maker as spending the extra money on upgrading a full component. Too many folks lose site of this when building a system. Richard Vandersteen had some great talking points about this topic at a seminar he did last year at Audio Connections. He's actually coming back in May I believe. Nordost to me can suck the life out of the sound. I have friends who own stores who swear by it though. Personally I have heard the Odin mk II I think they are on in a full Macintosh/Wilson Sasha 2 system and I didn't love it at all. I couldn't live with it. I felt it sounded better with Transparent cable. I won't buy from Transparent because Karen and her husband stole their designs from Bruce Brisson of MIT when they started out. MIT was always very good cable for the levinson, but personally I'd stick with AQ or Cardas (who makes the OEM wires for MANY of the top audio wire brands). |
So much info to process. I'm certainly a novice compared to the folks in this discussion. It appears that my single biwiring may be causing a phase shift according to Nordost? According to Audioquest, they recommend the best solution for biwiring is two separate identical runs of cables. However they still offer single biwire options on their cables? Has anyone heard from Mr. Cardas regarding this matter? I'm going to do a true biwire with two identicle runs of cable. Can I get some suggestions on brands and AWG? Levinson no.334 Paradigm Reference studio 100v2 N |
timrhu 2,713 posts 03-20-2015 7:58am Anytime you can keep signals separate it's usually a good things. The signals are different on each run and it's night to keep them away from each other if you can. Higher resolution systems will shows the differences most of the time. Ctsooner "Not sure where you got this information, but if you are biwiring using only one amp, the signal is identical on both cables." <<< your response to my original post. Actually you are incorrect. Because of reflected impedances the high frequencies curent will travel up the wire connected to the mid/tweeter and the low frequencies curent up the wire connected to the woofer. All frequencies are present but not the same amount of current in each wire. |
As someone very suspicious of many tweaks ("special" fuses, magic dots, wire suspension bridges…blah blah), I was surprised at the results from building a pair of what I thought were way cool jumpers to try in place of the stock gold plated metal bars on my Silverlines. My high quality solid core shrink wrapped well sorted little masterpiece jumpers sounded like crap. Back on went the stock little flat jumpers that are simply better. The end. |
New to the conversation, (actually just listening in). I'm no expert on the subject that for sure. I would agree that all manor of connections would make changes in the sound. Full disclosure, I run Audioquest Gibralter single biwire. Also switch off with Nordost Blue Heaven Leif with Norse Jumpers. I like them both but the AQ has the edge, for my system. I'm finding humor in the fact that what ever way we decided to connect our speaker cables, we still end up hanging them on what are usually cheap binding posts. And who knows what cable is connecting my paradigm binding posts to the speakers. N |
Timrhu...good point about Dunlavy speakers having bi-wire terminals. On my SC-Vs I did a bi-amp arrangement with two Audio Research D200s and Audio Magic speaker cable. Sounded great. Now using higher grade single run Audio Magic cable with Marantz Reference monos it sounds even better. Dunlavy probably would have said, "I told you so"! |
My guess is that people want to biwire things regardless of how they sound so Yun stuck the posts on to satisfy customer choice issues, or he just had biwire panels hanging around and figured he's use them. I'm willing to bet a VERY small percentage of hifi freaks biamp speakers so I doubt that's the reason. He also warned me to be careful not to lose the jumpers...that was pretty funny. |
03-22-15: Jl35 That's hard to say, since I've never heard any speakers that offer both options, single pair of binding posts and double pair of posts. It would make for an interesting experiment though. |
Silverline Audio recommends biwiring for all their speakers in their somewhat generic setup suggestions. When I found a used pair of Preludes years ago I found that one driver wasn't working so I called Silverline to see about a replacement (it was a wiring issue so I ended up not needing one) and Alan Yun (the owner/designer) answers the phone...a fun conversation ensued where he tells me the Preludes specifically should NOT be biwired as they're more "coherent" single wired. I tried both ways, and he was right...my conclusion is that it is taste and/or speaker specific, and nothing should be assumed without listening closely. |
This is obviously a topic many people have questions about (myself included) based on the number and variety of responses. I recently recabled my Avantgard Trio horn speakers changing from the manufacture recommended biwire cable to a single high quality cable and then running a jumper to the powered subs. The result was much better sound which I attribute solely to the higher quality cable, not the configuration. I suppose if one could compare the biwire arrangement with the same cable used for the single run, the experiment would be complete. But that would have been outside my budget, essentially doubling my cost. Bottom line, in this case the single run cable array was the better option. |
Is it possible, however unlikely, they put 2 sets of terminals on the speakers for something other than marketing purposes? Maybe he didn't believe in biwiring, but he did believe in biamping. Pure speculation on my part. I recently read a review of a Vienna Acoustics speaker where the author mentioned how pressure was put on the manufacturer to ad an extra set of binding posts for biwiring. The pressure was coming from the American importer because in his opinion American audiophiles demanded biwiring. |
03-20-15: Tls49Thanks for providing the link, Tony. Definitely worthwhile reading, IMO, for anyone interested in the subject. And it is refreshing to see effects addressed and analyzed in a quantitative manner, rather than a claimed effect simply being asserted to be audibly significant without regard to its quantitative degree. I note, interestingly, that his summary of the potential advantages of biwiring focuses on minimizing interaction between drivers, but makes no mention of another potential advantage that is often cited, namely reduced interaction between high and low frequency currents that is alleged to occur within the cable itself, when single-wired. An effect that I have yet to see analyzed in a quantitative manner that would support a reasonable possibility of its being audibly significant. His concluding point, about biwiring potentially resulting in audibly significant phase shifts at mid-range frequencies, and thereby contributing to what he refers to as the "capriciousness" of biwiring, strikes me as an excellent point which I have not seen stated before. I ran some quick calculations based on typical values for cable inductance and for capacitors that are used in the high-pass sections of crossover networks. And it does seem as he indicates that in a biwire configuration a couple of degrees or so of phase shift in the mid-range could occur with many speakers as a result of that interaction. And of course adding to all of the capriciousness and unpredictability resulting from the competing advantages and disadvantages he describes, is that having a system behave in as technically ideal and accurate a manner as possible will certainly not always be subjectively preferable. Either in itself or due to the possibility of compensating for other issues that may be present in the system or the room. Thanks again. Best regards, -- Al |
"03-20-15: Timrhu Funny thing, my Dunlavy speakers have bi-wire terminals. If he didn't believe in them why did he put them on his speakers? Rja Because some marketing types told him audiophiles demand it." Is it possible, however unlikely, they put 2 sets of terminals on the speakers for something other than marketing purposes? Maybe he didn't believe in biwiring, but he did believe in biamping. |
So, is this lack biwire availability a cost cutter or a result of evidence that biwire (and bi-terminal speakers) is ineffective, that it was/is a cosmetic trend only ?No real answer, but a lot of opinions. IMHO, the best answer and I quote well respected poster, Almarg, "It may or may not make a difference. If it makes a difference, it may or may not be for the better." Some manufacturers specifically design their speakers to be biwired, and others have just added the connections as a means of "audio fashion". IME, I achieved better results with single wire and jumpers as opposed to biwire, and as I was trying the options, I found this article that seem to describe the difference I was hearing. BI-WIRE, NOT ONLY AN ADVANTAGE Bottom line is you try different configurations, and go with what you like. |
My perception has been that anecdotal reports which have appeared here and elsewhere about biwiring are highly inconsistent. Some report substantial benefits, some report no difference, and some report significantly degraded sonics. As examples of the latter, in this thread and this one three different people reported significant perceived (and in one case measured) loss of bass when biwiring. I offered a hypothesis in those threads as to why that might have been, but one which was speculative and perhaps not able to account for the degree of the reported effects. In any event, as is often the case in audio the question of biwiring seems to be system and listener dependent, and to not have a great deal of predictability. FWIW, I'll note that the designer of my present speakers, the generally highly regarded and certainly not inexpensive Daedalus Ulysses, has chosen to provide them with just a single pair of terminals. Regards, -- Al |
I'm here to learn. Thanks for the info, although most posts were off topic. I thought the purpose of biwiring on the speaker end was to improve crossover performance. I have four year old Chord Rumour biwires with four conductors each. It seemed that a quick low budget upgrade to the entire system in front of the speakers would be a speaker cable upgrade, such as to Chord Odyssey or perhaps entry Cardas or Nordost. I was surprised to see that Odyssey and Rumour are now two strand only at Chord. They say better results are gotten with jumpers. A quick check of online retailers does not show one instance of Nordost Leif Series being offered in biwire even though these cables have multiple conductors. Cardas is hit and miss with offering biwire. So, is this lack biwire availability a cost cutter or a result of evidence that biwire (and bi-terminal speakers) is ineffective, that it was/is a cosmetic trend only ? |
03-20-15: Rja Speaker designers do this for many reasons. Bi-amping is a higher priority reason that speaker manufacturers use multiple binding posts than bi-wiring though. Another reason is marketing, and meeting consumer demand. Believe it or not, some people won't buy speakers if they can't bi-amp/bi-wire. |
