Has anyone made the jump to $uper High end and were disappointed?

Read whitecamaross’ thread, " My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!"

He swaps expensive gear like the rest of us change clothes and has his mind blown by his new gear on a regular basis. His cost is on a generally, but not always, upward trend.

I think part of his frequent amazement is the new factor. What sounds amazing to us at first often becomes only ok after we’ve gotten used to it. I think for most of us the way to go is to have a system we like, but is not the ultimate, and a Tidal subscription, and get our kicks discovering new music instead of buying new gear. On Tidal I listen to a lot of music I would never buy and find a lot of stuff that I enjoy.  Maybe not forever, but it's definitely good for a few listens.

We can go on forever about it, can't we ? 

My current rig is total value of around $50K.
My first real high end system was around $5K.

I can honestly say that all components I have upgraded over the past 12 years until now have been improvements over their previous versions.  This includes speakers, amp, preamp and turntable.

Of these upgrades the ones that had this biggest impact were speakers, turntable and phono preamp, in that order.  

For now I am sticking with what I have, as I am very happy with its performance.  I do get curious about other gear quite often, but when I consider the cost to go up the line I decide it's not worth it (at least where I am at right now).

I cannot imagine ever owning a system that eclipses $100K, but I do dream about it.  I think at that point it becomes more about status than about dramatic improvement.  A lot of people care just as much about what their gear looks like as the performance.  My guess is my system gives me 90% of what a $250K system would, but it definitely doesn't look as cool or exotic. Ultra high end is sexy stuff.  I get why it is so attractive to so many.  The feeling it gives you when you look at it is definitely a big part of the equation.
 

Good thread, hard to add much to the very good views presented.  But here's a question that over 39 years of system building still baffles me.  That is what seems to me the impossibility of building a system the way it should be built, i.e. by auditioning any significant purchase in your own system.  You can go to shows, read reviews, and other research, but it is just not practicable to home audition most gear (yes, The Cable Company is an exception).  So what happens, at least to me, is that you need to meet a dealer you can trust.  And even if he is willing to allow home auditions, your choices are still limited to the brands he carries.  You can still do well this way in building the system, but have to admit you have no idea how it sounds compared to the great variety of good equipment out there.  The point being that in building a system, one's knowledge base is necessarily limited.  And I want to Listen, not work (while admiring those who do want to work).

Not to mention the forest of directly conflicting claims by numerous respected professionals in the field, most of whom presumably are people of integrity who just have differing views, but nonetheless they provide little reliable ground to stand on.

As for the original question, rephrased, "have your high end system purchases remained worth it?", my general response is that, even though I consider myself a value shopper always very mindful of diminishing returns, and am in fact very happy with my system, I have seldom gotten the level of sound quality I expected from any major purchase.  Maybe inflated expectations.  I agree with those who have cited small tweaks as often exponentially more cost effective than major component changes.  And I agree with the many comments about good sound from modestly priced systems, having owned my fair share (how about Infinity 3000 speakers, or any Rogue or NAD product).

But to emphasize, the above statement does not contain an implication that I don't enjoy my system--it sounds beautiful, I am glad I've spent the coin and feel I've gotten good value (while acknowledging there may be very different opinions of that).  System is Aesthetix Eclipse stereo amp and preamp, Resolution Audio 3.0 CD/DAC, Antipodes DX digital front end (no vinyl, tape or 'phones), Vandersteen Model Seven MkII speakers, and medium-high end Audioquest wires, old RGPC power conditioning with amps plugged into wall, Mapleshade rack with 4" shelves.  Maybe new retail total somewhere around $130k (yes, a ridiculous amount of money), I bought majority used or at good discount.  Again, despite liking my system very much, I would have thought this level of expenditure would provide better sound, mindblowing sound, actually.  Again, maybe unrealistic expectations.  But that consideration doesn't matter.  What does matter is that I enjoy the system and am glad I've bought it.

As you can gather, my response to the original question is that I am delighted at what I've gotten for my money, and disappointed at what I've gotten for my money...

I also agree with a previous post who suggested it takes a lot of time and effort to put together an agreeable system, and with another who said that very good sound is unavoidably expensive.

And now, with the mercifully increased dark enabled by the end of DST, I am about to turn on the system and enjoy the beautiful music.
jimski

In my little side career of live sound stuff, I use extremely clear sounding multi thousand watt systems for live shows, with basically a mono mix for each side. Is that the "live sound" we all strive for? It shouldn't be…and do home systems reproduce the magic 10th row center of orchestral performances? Uh…maybe sort of, but if the music get's its point across evenly enough to be enjoyable, that's all you can ask for. Think about what a home system is doing, and where it's doing it (8 or ten feet from your earballs), and understand that putting your faith in Audio Salon sales people is in THEIR interest more than yours. Much more. If you're in to this stuff, and have some experience, you may have heard some tiny English monitors driven by a tube amp in the 70s and thought, wow…that's nice. Or a pair of old Altecs or ARs or whatever and been happy as a clam.  I've listened at length to the magic of Magicos or whatever in various carefully controlled environments over decades and have always thought, "my home stuff sounds better." Because it does…and it all cost an almost irrelevant amount of cash compared to the pricey stuff because I think that's where the actual magic resides. You just have to work at it to get it there, and dumping big bucks on what Inna imagines is worth it is the actual lazy approach. Kind of like relatively unpopular brilliant musicians in the "folkie" (or acoustic) scene as compared to hyped popular ones…in my experience I've found that the lesser known performers are often simply better, and the good new is there's more of them…but you have to get out there and hear 'em…don't be lazy...

The $1 Million super system at CES 2001, which I’m pretty sure was comprised of monster Wisdom Audio speakers and a bunch of huge Plinius amplifiers sitting on a stage of the appropriate proportions, sounded, well, not..too..good. I hate to judge before all the facts are in, but I’m pretty sure throwing money, even massive amounts of it, at the problem is not the answer. I was supposed to go listen to the Million Dollar System, which had generated considerable buzz that day 🐝 with a couple of guys but I made the mistake of sticking around at two big rooms I was supporting hoping for a miracle.

Which reminds me. In the 80s they had a CES in Washington DC area and I attended a big demo of the Audio Research electronics driving the monster Infinity Reference speakers, the ones with the outboard stack of woofers for each channel. The source was a big reel to reel. The dude conducting the demo stood on the stage and alerted the audience that they were about to hear sound that was indistinguishable from live music. I cannot recall what the recording was they played but as soon as it came on everyone looked around at each other, incredulous, and raced for the EXIT doors, your humble scribe included. 🏃 🏃 🏃

"A rich man has about as much chance of attaining Audio Nirvana as a camel has of passing through the eye of a needle." - old audiophile axiom

Come on fellas, if you spent 50 grand on a stereo system and we're not happy, would YOU admit it?

Fifty grand isn't even close to the expenditure needed for a $uper high end stereo system.  :)

Come on fellas, if you spent 50 grand on a stereo system and we're not happy, would YOU admit it?
Think about it.
Whoever out there does is the God of Honesty and don't think there is one.

Sitting here banging out some Hank Mobley, "Uh Huh" through the Quad 989s, Wolcott amp and Lamm pre.
Life is good.
Great thread.
GJI

Although not as expensive, upgrading recordings can add quite a bit of cost. With each new remaster, hi rez release, im sure many own multiple copies of a single album, in many formats. Myself, I have pretty much purchased every vinyl, cd edition of Dark Side of the Moon thru the years. 

I found that it's much easier to build a satisfying $25k system or even a $100k system.  Those systems necessarily have the lower resolution that covers up a lot of faults in the recordings and the systems. 

I wasn't really ready for the jump to the lower stratosphere where every component change revealed a flaw/weakness in my system that necessitated another commensurate component change.  For example, earlier this year, I unexpectedly was "forced" to upgrade my front end since I love CDs and EMM said that it was likely their last spinner, which revealed my speakers lack of clarity and further reinforced the fact that their top end was exceedingly bright.  So I decided to upgrade the speakers which confirmed my beliefs about my previous speakers but revealed that not only were my 300W monoblocs insufficient to properly drive my speakers (never thought I would say that) but more importantly made even clearer a whitish tinge in the treble.  I figured that was just part of high resolution until I was auditioning a set of replacement amps that can properly drive my speakers (and pretty much any speaker I can think of) and shockingly it went away (which was a bonus - there were many other factors that made me bite the very expensive bullet on the amps).  So, waiting on the new amps and crossing my fingers that I'll be where I need to be since the discretionary budget is tapped.

Well, there would be a lot of frustration on the way. In that sentence I meant money, though.

inna
It is worth it if you are up to what is involved. And the cost will be very high, it has to be.

One assumes you’re referring to psychological costs. 😄

Agreed. It is worth it if you are up to what is involved. And the cost will be very high, it has to be.

I wonder why someone hasn't repeated the long overdue motto that should hopefully end all the high-end bashing: "You can hear everything you can measure but you can't measure everything you hear". 
Good quality speakers are important but so is every part of the chain. Amps are incredibly important. Pre-amps are the absolute heart of a system. High quality source material is fundamental to great sound. And all the cabling is imperative to making it all work together. Finally, the room is absolutely instrumental in allowing it all to work. Good sound is not hard to find at reasonable prices. Very good sound can start to get pricey. Exceptional, almost soul stirring and truly transformational sound takes a tremendous amount of dedicated time, a lot of money, usually a dedicated listening room and even a lot of pure luck... but when that all comes together ideally it is SO MUCH BETTER than anything less than a live performance, there simply is NO comparison. It is a spellbinding experience that truly quenches an inner thirst you never realized was so parched.
As much as I'd like to say that "Plenty good enough" purchased via " good value" sounding equipment is all most people need... all I can say is "What you don't know you're missing.. you won't miss". But for those fortunate enough to successfully get through all of the above hoops/hurdles and contortions, 
music played through such a system will be the tall cool glass of your favorite beverage at the end of your daily jaunt in the desert. And well worth ALL the work. Happy Lissn'n

For 45 years as an Audiophile I'd buy a piece, tweak, change, replace, and repeat.  I DID have a period of about 15 years where I didn't change a thing, just sat back and enjoyed the music.
Then, to get to the OPS question: I literally "hocked the house."  Went to a shop picked out speakers, a matching amp, pre-amp, turntable, cartridge, DAC/CD player, and miscellaneous interconnects/cables.  In all the system cost nearly 10X my old system.
Now nearly 2 years later, system is getting a bit boring / taken-for-granted.  Do I wish I didn't hock-the-house, or bought a few new cars instead yeah sometimes..........

That’s because you have to get the entire set-up at the same time and then leave it alone until you are ready to go to an even higher level, instead of endlessly tinkering with it.
Yes, difficult and very expensive. But we are talking super high end.
We are obsessed with gear audiophiles because we are poor and lazy.

I think one thing that plays a key role (no matter what audio $$ level) is each new addition (or improvement) may highlight some other weakness that did not stand out before. Even if very minor. That is where "tweaking" with things like cables, room treatments, power cords, etc may come in. I purchased my new Nuforce amp a couple months ago. The bass and the clarity was there. However, just a smidge harsh on upper frequencies. I purchased a new tube Pre amp and the harshness is gone and I have silky smooth mids. I was not expecting, when I purchased the Nuforce amp, to pay an additional $3500 for a tube pre. It's a constant give and take

Oh, well, I guess that's the way the cookie crumbles. 🍪 No offense.

I gave the OP a bit more thought, and reflected on what I wrote a 'few' posts back - - the original question, summarized, was "have you been disappointed by the high end" - or another way to read it is 'was the dollars worth it'. So...buried in my life history post, a few back, I mentioned a journey into low-power, high efficiency. This was in late 90's ('98-'99). That was no where near high-end $$$$$, but it did cost me some money. It sucked. I tried - and it was like a carrot-on-a-stick and I was the camel. Bass was problematic in my room, mids got over powering. I never found a horn that (I could afford) I liked - and Fostex drivers were OK, but lets revist that bass issue. Oh - lets roll some tubes now. It's an interconnect thing. Ugh. Maybe I'm not putting enough money into it (but my pocketbook is bleeding - oh, maybe I have no business even trying this if my pocketbook isn't deep enough). Hah.  So - was that venture worth it? Nope.

from a thread, on another forum... on damping materials - a post I made today:

What it comes down to (took many years to zero in on the true issues at hand) is that a interestingly high number of designers and most electronics people have zero (or near zero) information on how the ear actually works, and how this correlates to electronics.

Doing it right, requires that a quite wide swath of data be understood and brought to bear on the problem. Then to design and build along those lines. and then..get it out to the public.

....At which point, one would just be seen as another prophet screaming on a stage among a thousand other prophets screaming on their stages, all in the same room. Truth or correctness in these areas has but one voice in a room of a thousand voices.

Pretty darned difficult to see it, is the end result.

The fact that each person has different results in a scenario that should be uniformly clear, brings this point home, quite effectively. That is, if people look at the whole scenario with enough clarity in thought. There is an order to this thing, this issue... this industry wide fundamental issue, but it can be difficult to see.

~~~~~~~~~

Basically, we’ve become so inured to the complexity, the sheer Gordian knot-like characteristics of the issues... that we’ve settled on the idea that the differences are the norm and nothing is really truly correct. When in fact, this is not true. I detest anything factualized and thus dogmatized (as both create and maintian circular dead ends), but there is a way out- a more corrected path in this audio issue.

I did propose the basics of a path out of this particular dark woods and I did it in what is essentially a room full of audio designers. The blowtorch thread on DIYaudio.

I’ve been waiting for a few years to see if it bears fruit.

@boneman

thanks for the mention

i will say that you are right about the room, it is the most difficult piece to attain and perfect.  My room is nowhere close but it is dedicated and I have no waf to deal with.  Maybe I can perfect the dimensions and room construct with the next house if I am so lucky.

But yes, I have a symmetric 18x15x9 room with slanted ceilings and no odd cubbies or halls.  I have the absorption down pat and just need to work on diffusion.

The experience in my main room is far more of an "event" than any of my 2 lesser systems.  The Sonus Faber Olympica 3 system in my family room is a pale facsimile in comparison. 

It's been fun reading some of the comments - only I think 2 people have answered the OP with actual examples (Thank you @joey_v  )
I have "ventured" into a land far higher-end that I thought. In fact...I was in the camp of what some might consider the 'curmudgeon' approach where just about anything in the high 4 digits was a virtual ripoff, and 5 digits was DEFINITELY a ripoff. I took a 'break' from the hobby for about 10-15 years (I left it with some dabbling in SET's and high efficiency single-drivers stuff. Honestly, sucked the life out of music for me, in my experience-there is a lot to consider in those types of systems.) Enter some find audiophile friends who have 5$,$$$ to $$$,$$$ invested, and well invested. What I heard brought the joy back (and, ultimately, the hobby back to me).
4 years ago, I 'jumped back in' with some used items, and a new VPI Scout. The system was a refurbed APT Holman pre, Audire Forte amp; North Creek Music System speakers (and the Scout, with a 2MRed...then went to Dyna 20X2). It sounded really good. However - I (maybe like the OP) wanted to see what this other 'place' was - and I had some extra cash, also something I never had before. So...here we go..about 2 years ago the upgrade-itis bit hard: 
Purchased gently used, over the course of 1 year: Jeff Rowland Synergy IIi, Jeff Rowland 501 mono's, VPI Aries 2 with JMW10 (two arms for Dyna 20x2 and Ortofon Quintet Mono). Silent Running Audio platform, and Tannoy Monitor Gold 12's (which I have had for years, just not used) in a custom enclosure, with crossovers by Reference Fidelity Components (UK). I have now been 'testing the waters' a bit with interconnects. I have some Cardas in the system now (Using all balanced was a revelation to me, btw.) I also installed a dedicated 6kva isolation transformer for the audio system power lines.
HERE's THE BIGGEST THING: A DEDICATED ROOM. FINALLY. :)  I haven't even begun to scratch the surface with acoustics yet, aside from speaker placement and some first reflection points. But my next big action will be a full acoustic work up, so as to get a plan together.
Was it all worth it? Yes...Did I have buyers remorse at some point? Yes: that moment when the sound changes so much (a) you wonder what you broke (b) did it get better? (c) YES IT DID! HOLY COW - my background noise got so quiet, I wasn't used to that.... wierd....
Honestly speaking, I had to re-train my ears bit from some harsh treble which I'd come to expect (and maybe even look for?) to a non-fatiguing, smooth sound that was so natural. I doubt the journey is done for me - but maybe my "near hi end" system will morph again.  We'll see.

But Continuum turntable might in fact be the last table you'll ever need. I would get their classic Caliburn, though.

Notable quotes

"The Ford Model T is the last car you will ever own." - Henry Ford

"The iPhone is the last mobile device you will ever own." - Steve Jobs

"This is the last Audio Research preamp you will ever own." - whoever

"The Hubble Space Telescope is the last space telescope you’ll ever need." - NASA bigwig

"The Space Shuttle is the last reusable manned space vehicle you’ll ever need." Different NASA bigwig who was also quotes as saying, "The Space Shuttle is perfectly safe due to NASA's strict program of quality control and triple redundancy."

I like to design stuff that has exactly zero capacity to be replaced by anything in the market, today -- or tomorrow.

If you buy everything 2nd hand, I've heard some Very good systems in the $10k to $15k range.  Are $100k plus systems better, yes.  Radically better, not really.  Contrary to some, I've found that every component, interconnect, and power cord makes a difference some more than others. 

That's not ultra high-end.

After hearing Revel Ultima Salon, Talon Khorus and Wilson Sophia speakers, I realized that ultra high-end is ultra bull-end.

Definitely, I believe, the higher the priced component, the higher the expectations. I believe it because I’ve been there.

That said, there is usually rationale to the pricing, usually ends up with better components and build... if the price difference is relatively large.

Say $1000 amp vs a $50000 amp, for sure the $1000 does not have the parts that even come close to the $50000 amp.  That said, I doubt the difference between something $20,000 and something $35,000 is not as vast as two amps $1,000 and $15,000. 

I called Boulder Amps once, I was inquiring about the history of my 2060 (which I was purchasing at that time) as they have logged down the history of most of their equipment (turns out that Alon Wolf owned my 2060 prior).... anyway, I alerted them that there was a Boulder 1060 amp for sale for $10,000 on audiogon (retail is $25,000).

The engineer said, "Wow, that’s less than the parts cost from the supplier."

I proceeded to ask him what is the part cost for an amp - he says typically around 33% of what they are asking retail. FWIW.

Love highend audio everything i have gotten has been wonderful so far.If you know what your doing things should be a big sound improvement.

@aberyclark , you've certainly sparked a debate!
I am not a golden ear but here are some observations.
I inherited a NAD 7250 PE and didn't like it for a new system I was setting up in the basement. Got a Rotel Rx-1052. Huge improvement in side by side. Eventually started looking for a better integrated because, after all, it was just a Rotel, and a receiver at that. I got a loaner Creek Classic 5250SE, which was reviewed very, very well. Should have blown the Rotel away. It did not as far as I could hear. There were differences, sure, but I had to listen hard and on some material I still preferred the Rotel, which I would still highly recommend. So I brought the Creek to my dealer and we compared it to a Belles Aria ($1500, if I recall). I thought the Creek held it's own very well. I certainly wouldn't spend $1100 for the difference, although the two guys from the dealer could hear a profound difference. I'm sure they are golden ears. I still trust their advice....mostly. Then I got a Primare I32 class D integrated. $3,000 list; I paid $1,000 - about twice as much as I'd ever paid for any component up to that time. That sweet thing was an improvement over the Creek and Rotel that was not even arguable. I bought it, happily. Conclusion, price doesn't always make a difference; but sometimes it really does!

The area, other than speakers where I think differences in SQ are not imaginary is phono cartridges. Even I can hear the difference between a Denon DL-301 III and a Hana EL and a Dynavector 10x5. Which is best? It depends on the mood I am in and what I'm playing.

I've never been one trying to reproduce the concert hall with a home system. Outside of orchestra/classical and acoustic (non or very low amplified) in the right setting, my system sounds way better than any general concert. I'm more into trying to reproduce what the mastering engineer hears at his/her desk and let the character of my equipment and environment "color" that sound to my liking.  

I've been a music enthusiast for some 50+ years and an audiophile for some 35 years, with a true love for every jaundra, except, maybe, Rap and have attended many live performances, in a large variety of settings. Some of my favorite being open air concerts and street corner or small theater/night club jazz ensembles. Over the years, I've come to the conclusion that my expectations for a home audio system would not necessarily include components and speakers capable of producing rock concert level volumes in my listening room. Since my head and ears (like with many of us aging audiophiles) will no longer handle that much sound pressure (at least for long) I have scratched that needs off my list. I am most happy to have a system that, at moderate levels, creates a large, detailed and convincing stage, can re-produce the timber and ayre of real instruments and vocals and produce the dynamics needed for clean, crisp percussions. Like others here, I have a love for Quads and, in general, electrostats and ribbons. I'm pretty convinced that, regardless of your needs or expectations, unless you're trying to fill a concert hall, it shouldn't cost $100,000+ to build a very nice audio system......JMO.....Jim 

Super sound? What is that? However, high end home audio is one hobby where "fool yourself" (not the Little Feat song) is a defining characteristic.

Speaking of super high-end, $4000 only buy used/demo cable or used cartridge or rack, though some advocate that $500 vintage cartridges can be at least just as good. 
I will never be operating at this level, I think just high end will be satisfactory. And I won't need a lot of money for that, $50k or so for everything, I guess. But of course if I want custom headblock for Studer deck and outboard custom tube playback head amp, and something like Herzan active isolation platform, that will be extra.

Throwing - no, but super sound is expensive even if you buy used. Let's not fool ourselves.

Spending more $$$ is no guarante for better sound. If you make smart choices along your personal audi journey you will be able to enjoy what you love even more. A higher resolving system can be more rewarding BUT it can also make things worse when you suddenly hear a weak link that was burried before. Working on each weak link can be very rewarding when you manage to achieve improvements. It is like an endless very personal puzzle. And I agree with Robert Harley that the better (not necessarily more expensive) the system gets the larger the reward from small improvements. The oposite of diminishing returns is what happens, when the resolution of your system allows you to hear a significant difference just by changing a minor component. Just throwing big $$$ at it does not at all guarantee satisfaction!

I've never heard Ayon sound good but have heard D'Agostino sound phenomenal. The lesson here is that the sound is in the ear of the beholder. What is most important is how it sounds to YOU.

Ayon Audio (USA Tube Audio) has classified ads here on audiogon for $25,000 amps (plus other items lower in price). There must be a decent market for such since the ads are everywhere here. I purchase items blind thru the internet since there’s nothing, outside of HT gear, locally to hear in person. Of course, I always make sure there is a good return policy. With that, the stuff I buy is $4000 and under.

I wonder how disappointed a dealer would be to have someone purchase such a high priced (the $25,000 Ayon amp) item only to have it returned. Plus, how cooperative the dealer would be. That’s $25,000 anyway you look at it (a lot of money). I guess that’s the waters the dealer chose to swin in.

Some of the high priced items, like D’agostino, are beautiful to look at and I am sure they sound fantastic

Over the years I've been a "serial monogamist" audiophile, usually changing out one piece at a time when doing upgrades.
I have a friend who has a walk-in closet full of "spare" components and when he & his wife "downsized", let me know that the closet was filled with items which disappointed him.
I have been very fortunate, swapping out one piece at a time, and having a dealer I can trust (who has turned down sales when he thought the item I was interested in would not have worked out for me), and with each new piece, have enjoyed an improvement.

still enjoying my Roc 2002 also...

I distinctly recall walking with John Curl to the Talon room circa 2000. If memory serves and I think it does Diana Krall was playing over the system. Ooops, did I drop a name? 🙄 Now ya got me doin' it.

@steakster and Ivan. Thank you for your kind words.  Going through rocky times only solidified my love for audio.  I didn't like it, but it was a good process for me to go through.  

Steakster, I'm glad you are enjoying your Roc.  I always like to hear back from Talon owners and know they are enjoying music from the speakers/subs.  I'm excited to send more Talon products out next year.

I see your point about name dropping.  I thought about omitting them from the post since I figured quite a few of those people probably don't even like me.  However I kept the names in since I was reminiscing about the people that have been a big part of my audiophile experience.    I also thought it made the post more interesting.

I do have another story that may give some insight into purchasing expensive systems.  I had a customer spend over $200k on speakers, electronics and cables.  He went from receiver and speakers, to full tilt high end audio.  He had plenty of disposable income to justify the purchase.  I ended up flying out to his home because of the sizable order(he bought 2 other smaller systems for his friends).  When I arrived at his home, I discovered he had one of the most undesireable rooms for listening that I have encountered.  20' plus vaulted ceiling in a 40' hexagonal room with over 50% windows.  The flooring was wood and marble(of course!)  In the middle of the room was a 3 step down living area where the system would reside.  As good as the equipment was that he bought, it couldn't make up for that awful listening space.  I proceeded to set up the system to his desires.  Without the ability to add any room treatments, I was stuck.  I had 2 Thunderbird subs and the bass was still lean since it was 20' away from a glass wall.  Oh and the midrange glare and treble slap against all those hard refelective surfaces was mind numbing.  After doing the best I could at setup and putting on my best poker face, I turned the remote over to the customer.  He proceeded to test the system with female vocalist(I can't listen to Celine Dion the same way again) at ear piercing levels.  He had a big smile on his face.  What I thought was craptastic sound, was angelic singing to him.  What I thought was a terrible room, was the perfect room for him and the entertaining he liked to do.  He didn't have buyer's remorse at all.  In fact I bet he plays his system more than most audiophiles.  I think being single helps with that.

I think buyer's remorse comes from paying too much for a system or components and not enjoying them.  I have upgraded too much too fast.  I do regret that.  I have had to do that to maintain a reference system for designing speakers.  I have a long time audiophile friend in Southern California that has emulated(IMO) the way a high end system should be assembled.  He has gone to the high end audio shows throughout the years and carefully listened to many different systems.  He started out with a modest system comprising of a few thousand dollars worth of components in the early 90's.  He is a real bargain hunter and he has been judicious with the money he has spent over the years on his system.  He makes 1 to 3 changes a year to his system.  Each change he relishes and describes to me in detail the changes in sound to his system.  I'm due to fly out there and hear the recent addition of Audionet Amp monoblocs.  He has been using Jeff Rowland Model 10 for over 16 years.  He is happy as a lark with the changes in his system.  What I have seen as effective in his system building is: 1. His never ending education on high end equipment from shows, to dealers, and others home systems.  2.  His slow yet deliberate methodology of purchasing each component/cable.  3.  He treats his system like an investment.  He invest a certain amount of dollars into it and then he is done for the year.  My plan is to follow his example.

Note to self: I must strive to achieve a higher rate of name dropping in the future. 😬

As usual, the implicate assumption is that higher priced = better sound. it's not that simple, of course, unless you think like Fabio.

Hello Mike and welcome aboard! Nice post and thanks for weighing in here - we may only occasionally get the perspective of someone with your extensive experience. Hope you decide to stick around with us!

Regards,
John

I believe being an audiophile is an individual journey. However you want to go through your journey is your personal experience and who is anyone to criticize your journey. I don’t care if someone waste hundreds, thousands, hundreds of thousands or millions. If you love it that much and can afford it, go for it. Can a $10,000 system beat $100,000 system? You bet, I have heard it. Any individual with $5k or $100k system that are happy with it, who am I to criticize their personal taste.

I started my journey in 1974 with a Realistic(Radio Shack) turntable and a Realistic tuner. I was only 6, but I loved it! When I was 16 I put Bose speakers in my Cherokee. I then went on to build outlandish car audio systems. Rebuilding dashes, door panels, rear dashes, and trunks all in the effort to obtain great sound. After I was married a couple years I bought a house and sold my last car audio system and started on home audio(1992). I then started building my own home speakers and started on my first home system. The drivers were from Dynaudio and I bought Quicksilver 8417 monoblocs. I used a Marantz CD player to start out and Tara Labs speaker cable that was 1" in diameter(that was crazy big in those days) that I bought from Audition Audio. My listening room was in the basement and I had a wood shop 50 feet away.

I must thank John Giolas at Audition Audio(he is now with Wilson) for his store and introduction into high end audio. It was an experience that I will always remember and I can still picture that day. He had Wilson Watt 3/Puppy 2’s hooked up to a pair of Jadis amplifiers. I was hooked! I then have to give a shoutout to Dick Diamond who is now with YG Acoustics. He worked at Audio Design which competed with Audition. They had great sound going on there as well. From there I started my full on audio addiction. I tried Krell, Rowland, Wadia, Levinson, Theta, Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, Thiel, Magnepan, Martin Logan, Revel, plus more. I have fond memories of everything I put through my system. I was making good money in my family business and had the ability to spend(more than I should) money on audio gear.

The next part of my journey was being introduced to Tierry Budge who was formally employed with Wilson Audio. After about a year after meeting Tierry, I left my family business and started Talon Audio(December 1998). I then proceeded to try all sorts of equipment and cable. In fact, I ended up hiring one of Ray Kimber’s(Kimber Kable) employees, Sean Casey. Things didn’t work out with Sean, but he has continued on with Zu Audio. I am really happy that he pursued his audio dream. I continued to try out different equipment including Bryston, Jeff Rowland, Pass Labs, Kimber Kable, Cardas, Analysis Plus, Electraglide, Elrod, Electrocompaniet, Audio Research, Sim Audio, Levinson, Halcro, and Shunyata Research. Caelin Gabriel of Shunyata was of great help and he gave me solid advice to help improve my business. Tierry and I then had a parting of ways around 2002. I then became the new designer for Talon. With my experience with Tierry, and help from industry consultants I was able to introduce the Firebirds. I did have to make quite a few changes to the crossover circuit and the cabinet due to my inexperience. Clement Perry, Jason Serinus, Anthony Cordesman and Doug Schneider(as well as other industry professionals) pointed me in the right direction as far as better sound and what I needed to work on.

With the Firebirds came new equipment for me to experience. Burmester, Boulder, Wavac, Tenor Audio, Halo, JC-1, EMM Labs, Edge Electronics and more of the other brands I mentioned and more. I also enjoyed Kharma, JM Labs, Sonus Faber, and Wilson loudspeakers among others. I also found power cords, and cables to be an integral part of the audio system even more than I supposed.

Circa 2004 I was introduced to HRS racks which changed the way I thought about racks. They were crazy expensive in my opinion, but I couldn’t live without that rack in my system. I then discovered Gryphon Audio. Very few products have changed my thinking on high end audio, Gryphon was a pivot point for me. Wow! I remember receiving the Mikado CD player, Sonato Allegro preamp, and the amazing Antileon Signature Class A amplifier. That was the next highlight in my audiophile journey, listening to the Firebirds with Synergistic Research Cables, HRS racks, and Gryphon Audio components right before CES at my house. Aaron Neville’s album "Warm Your Heart" was so captivating, it was like I never heard the album before. Just like the precious moment at Audition Audio, this was my next one.

The next year at CES was my introduction to Walker Audio and I discovered more from Elrod. At this point in time my marriage was failing and divorce was eminent. I sold my company to Richard Rives Bird of Rives Audio. Then came the dark ages as an audiophile for me. I sold my gear to pay for my divorce and had to use all my spare money for alimony and child support. I still produced a few designs for Talon Audio including the ThunderHawks and Phoenix speakers. I still had a Gryphon Callisto 2200, but it was not the same setup I used to have. So from 2006-2016 I didn’t have a high end system setup. I had my Talon Firehawks speakers setup in a home theater system, but I had pretty much given up on high end.

Last year my drum teacher discovered I was the former owner of Talon Audio. He ended up purchasing a pair of Raven’s from me and I helped him set up his first high end system. I pulled my Callisto out of storage so my drum teacher could get a good taste of high end audio. His enthusiasm lit a spark in me that had laid dormant for 10 years. At this point in time, alimony had recently ended and child support was ending soon. I called up Joe Kubala(whose ears I trust) who is one of the few industry professionals I kept in touch with for advice on putting together a high end audio system. He gave me advice and referred me to Bill Parish to fulfill my electronics needs. I purchased the Mola-Mola monoblocs and preamp with phono stage and dac. I also purchased the PS Audio DS Player along with a full ensemble of Kubala-Sosna Elation cables. Joe and Bill were helpful in telling me the attributes of vinyl records. I have owned turntables in the past, but they are really a hassle when you are designing speakers. Or maybe I was just too much of a spaz to appreciate the wonderment of vinyl. My system was rocking and they were leading me the right direction, so I bought a Kronos Sparta with and Air Tight Supreme cartridge. My move to vinyl was monumental. I love the PS Audio DSP, but vinyl on the Sparta blew my mind. It did take a minute to get past the pops, hisses, and aberrations of vinyl pressings. Now it is less noticeable to me(how’s that possible?).

I went to CES and Axpona this year. I ran into some industry friends including Bill Parish, Joe Kubala, and Dick Diamond at CES. I was impressed by more brands such as YG Acoustics, Audionet, Lamm Audio, Raidho Acoustics, Constellation, Nagra and more. The YG Acoustics and Raidho Acoustics demos were impressive in their demonstrations. I also caught up with Mike Latvis of HRS to see his new VRX rack which I ended up purchasing. I also have upgraded all but 3 power cords from Elation to Realization with an amazing difference. When I replaced my long interconnect run, it sounded like I added room treatment and cleaned up my already dedicated power lines. Each upgraded Realization cable yeilded the same results.

This long story has purpose and some points. During this time I have had my drum teacher come over as well as many other listeners. What I found was that we all are going through our own personal audiophile journey. He has come over to my house after major upgrades and I have to point out the differences in the system. I have had trained audiophiles come over and the differences are unmistakable. It reminded me of a child eating Filet Mignon for the first time. Just give the kid a McDonald’s hamburger and he will be happy. Why are you throwing so many tastes and textures to someone who can’t appreciate it? I’m not saying a sub $50k is like a McDonald’s hamaburger, so chill out. What I am saying is that we all are at different parts of our journey and flavor pallets change as we evolve.

The above situation is similar to driving a Subaru and a Lexus and not noticing much of a difference. This happened to my brother this year. His new Subaru was totaled from another driver and I convinced him to try the Lexus again this time. He thought the Lexus was ostentatious and that he was paying twice as much for just a little difference. Frankly, if you don’t care that much, then it isn’t worth it. My brother after 2 weeks of purchasing and driving his Lexus now knows that snobbery is not the sole reason to purchase a Lexus. He loves his car! I’m not a Lexus fan, but good for him!

The reason I decided to write this long post is to impart my thoughts and hopefully wisdom about a hobby and journey that is my own that I’m extremely passionate about. I have shown vulnerability and exposed my journey to solidify my reasoning. Yes, I have made many mistakes along the way in purchasing expensive equipment. I regret some of my purchases, but I also cherish the lessons learned. I think Williamj makes some valid points in the ROI on high end components. I have not been judicious with my dollars spent on audio. If my budget was leaner, I would have tried to maximize each dollar spent. I most likely would have built my own cables and modify all of my electronics(I have done many mods). Since my budget enabled my behavior to purchase otherwise, I have had many wonderful and less wonderful experiences in audio. I would definitely say there have been more good(95%) than bad purchases. I can still enjoy music from less expensive systems. I just get annoyed with the deficiencies after about 20 minutes. A well balanced $100k+ will captivate me enough for a longer listening session. I have not heard a sub $100k system that I feel is properly balanced to my taste. My drum teacher is a pig in mud with his relatively diminutive system. Is he wrong in his assumption? HELL NO! If you have built your system to your liking and musical preferences, it is farbeit for me to criticize your personal preferences.

In conclusion as I’m in the midst of upgrading my amplification to what I feel is a new reference for me, I meditate and appreciate every aspect and event of my journey. I want every audiophile out there to enjoy their journey as well. Please don’t let others tell you what is right or wrong or how much money you should spend. I will recommend that you broaden your music interest to maximize your listening experience. This is your journey and you should be able to explore it the way you want.

Mike

If you recall a few years back, Lexicon released a $3000 dvd player that was a rebadged $500 oppo.  Lexicon added no engineering of their own. With that said, does this ever happen in the super expensive audio components?