Has anyone heard the SAT XD1

What is your question or problem that others might comment on? When it comes to the SAT, nearly every one of us is in the same boat with you; we could never afford it, nor would we afford it (just on principle) if we could. 

Here’s an opinion that seems to be unpopular right now in high end audio. Why on earth not make more of the product at a far lower price and sell many more to the ’general’ public, than make something that is priced so very high that it will only be bought be a tiny minority? The new SAT turntable is a good example of this marketing strategy, along with the rest of the SAT line. Marc Gomez seems to believe that the way to his success with these products is to price them so high that they are in the ether! While this makes sense ’if’ you are trying to sell to a tiny minority of consumers, and want to minimize your production capacity and number of sales, is it realy the way to go for the benefit of your long term business...and more importantly, for the benefit of the industry/hobby as a whole??? All IMHO.YMMV etc.,

Rega builds a great tonearm and turntable.  They sell them buy the boatload.  They are a real company with production facilities (factories), sales staff, human resource personnel and a finance department.  SAT is Marc Gomez.  He can make a tonearm, but he had to adapt another manufacturer's turntable.  That says something about SAT's overall abilities at this time.

@daveyf 3 reasons.
1. The manufacturer can pursue the state of the art.
2. The manufacturer can reside in the upper echelons of the industry. 
3. No need to deal with too many annoying humans.

@noromance Pricing to the stratosphere is connected to pursuing the state of the art...how??
Residing at the upper echelons of the industry?? Only to those who believe price equates to ability...IMO.
No need to deal with too many annoying humans?--well if you aren’t in business at all...you don’t have to deal with anyone, LOL.Hmm...

Fremer mentioned that the table equates in price to a brand new Lamborghini Huracan! Look at the Lamborghini and look at the SAT table, not a good thing to do, IMO. ( one of my good a’phile fiends described it like this...in simple words..."comical"). I 100% agree with him....plus, I would go as far as to state additionally that it is an insult to one’s intelligence. IMHO.

daveyf

Pricing to the stratosphere is connected to pursuing the state of the art...how??

Striving for high performance often costs money.

Cleeds, striving for high performance always costs money, but there is money and then there is money...so how much is too much??
I'm with lewm on this, to me...there is a principal involved here. Simple as that.

@lewm I just wondered if someone had heard or seen it. Or even just heard about it.

But the discussion about if there should be hifi components prices so high the "are in the ether!" is interesting. I personally like that someone out there is pushing the boundaries of what can be done. That it costs much is more of a side effect. Of course I hope they make cheaper things later with trickle-down tech, or that other brands get inspired and creates almost as good but much cheaper components.

@headphonedreams  IMO, the question is not whether someone should be pushing the boundaries of what can be done, but whether the result should be connected to some kind of value proposition. Or, whether it is simply acceptable to place the result in front of the consumer with what would, on the face of it, appear to be a simple money grab. That is entirely my point when it comes to the principle aspect. 

@daveyf
The value proposition is very straightforward - for the customer to own something unique and expensive. Most wealthy folk assume that if you pay more you get a better product, particularly when it comes to technilogical based products.

For the manufacturer it is a very simple calculation - can you make more by selling fewer, more exclusive, items at a higher price.

This is the inverse of the Levi Jeans saga when they almost went bust lauching a high end clothing. Their value proposition was cheap, rugged clothing, not consonant with high end suits.


The barrier to making these expensive products more affordable exists in the body of this forum - the forum is full of folk who want to believe their clapped out 70’s audio product ( think direct drive TT here ) that cost a nickel in a garage sale is the greatest audio product ever made and can compete with anything made today, particularly when they have added their own unique take on snake oil. You know them, "when I stuck some Wrigleys pepperment chewing gum on the headshell, my 1983 Grace 707 with the wonky bearings blew away an SAT tonearm". 

In a shrinking upper end 2 channel audio market the skinflints are killing off whats left of any potential market for innovative product at a "reasonable price".

@dover   LOL, your post about folks who believe they have the SOTA with their 70's audio product ( think direct drive TT here) definitely made me laugh. 
However, you do realize that the new SAT XD1 is priced at $282K...yes?
(with an SAT arm at that price..:0) )

real sustainable sales will establish the value proposition ( for the buyer not a wannabe 1% referee on the sidelines ).....now, where did I set that glass of $15 French rotgut red from...agahst...Costco ?

“ Let them eat cheap cake “

@daveyf
Yes, I’ve seen the pricing, and I have no issue with it.
If I could afford it and it was the best, based on my own in home audition, I’d buy it.

For those of us who cant afford it, I still welcome these products on the basis of pushing the envelope, and trickle down.

There are many advances in everyday motorcars derived from Formula 1 technology, but we cant all afford a Formula 1 racing car.

Personally I have not heard a direct drive that I like, but that doesn’t preclude that from happening one day.

Every time someone launches a new product, good or bad, should be celebrated because it means more interest generated in our hobby that exists in a shrinking market.

Most western economies are becoming hourglass in shape, very rich or poor, middle class hollowed out, and with it follows the shape of the audio market and products launched.

@dover  Here's the issue, that continually seems to be either a) misconceived or b) considered irrelevant.. and it's this: The price asked fails to live up to the tech, the complexity, the R&D required or any other parameter that typically accrues to a product like this..at that price. ( unless you are talking of a diamond crusted piece of jewelry!) When you mention Formula 1 cars or other products pushing the envelope, do you realize the amount of R&D cost, complexity, design ethos, etc that goes into those? Comparing the SAT to a Formula 1 car is a faulty comparison in so many ways, IMO. OTOH, if you are ok with a pricing structure that follows the guideline that any new and innovative product that is brought out in our hobby and can perform at a high level could, and should, be priced at a level that is only conceivable to multi-millionaires with money to flush...then I see your point. 

@dover  Agreed. Problem is that the 'comical' price that is attached to this table, at least IMHO, doesn't do our hobby any good either! 

Yes, I’ve seen the pricing, and I have no issue with it.
If I could afford it and it was the best, based on my own in home audition, I’d buy it.

I'm with @dover on this, I think the price is high but I might buy it if I could afford to.

It interesting to speculate what is an acceptable price for pushing the boundaries of what is possible with hifi and sound quality. If they employ one person or a few people and had to spend around 2 years to create this tt (a guess) and possibly buy expensive machinery to do it it may very well cost a few hundred thousand dollars to make it. And if they then only expects to sell a few the price must be high. 

I really wish they could make it much less expensive but I can't really say that I don't want them to sell it at the price they have if that is what they think is needed.

As for the money grab comments, I still doubt they will be very rich from this and if you read the Stereophile review Fremer seems to think this is one of the best turntables in the world. That might make it worth the high price for those who can afford it.

daveyf

... Here's the issue, that continually seems to be either a) misconceived or b) considered irrelevant.. and it's this: The price asked fails to live up to the tech, the complexity, the R&D required or any other parameter ...

That's an interesting claim. Please tell us about your experience with this pickup arm. How did it sound in your system?

First, let me say that my opening remark was not meant as a condemnation of the SAT products per se just on the basis of their very high cost.  I try not to do that or think like that.  The turntables and tonearms might be very very good, maybe they are the very best in the world, for all I know.  I only meant to say that they may as well not exist for me in my frame of relative affluence.  As to whether Mr Gomez is wise to cater to the super rich, that is his business and was his marketing decision apparently.  His financial success or failure, eventually, will signal whether he made a good decision or not.  (It was obviously a conscious decision NOT to be another Rega or Music Hall.)  If you search the internet for ultimate cost stereo systems, you will see that there are dozens of speaker systems that cost more than $250,000 and even $1M is not unheard of.  Buyers of such systems are also candidates to buy SAT products.  Such persons do not care a fig about cost, depreciation, or resale value, and yes most of them seem convinced that cost is proportional to sound quality.  Mr Gomez seems to want to appeal to that audience, and with the stamp of approval afforded by Mike Fremer, he probably will.  There's nothing wrong with that. The rest of us can go on about our business, and I don't think we need to feel deprived.

@cleeds Do point out where I am talking about the tonearm..
vs. the table in respect to the Formula 1 car example brought up by dover.

@lewm One maybe has to ask where the pricing structure that seems ever more prevalent in this hobby becomes...’comical’. Sure, to some that number is not ever reached...or is it??
One could ask Marc Gomez why he didn’t price his table at multiple millions of dollars--- after all, why not?? Do you see my point?

daveyf

@cleeds Do point out where I am talking about the tonearm..
vs. the table ...

Oops, my mistake and I am sorry. I should have asked about your actual experience with the turntable. Please tell us about it.

@cleeds Do explain how my experience, your experience, or anyone’s experience with the table has anything to do with the asking price of this product? Or, are you missing these points on purpose??
Oh, I forgot, you are able to purchase this table with your pocket change, isn't that right...and think it is a value proposition.

davey, I think your point or what is driving your responses is that you are angry/upset/unhappy with the prices.  Life is too short for that sort of fretting, so far as I am concerned, but you are entitled to your huff.  I am more pissed off that a 1962 Ferrari 250GTO could sell at auction for more than $30M, because I neglected to buy one in 1972 that was for sale at $12,500, from a reputable Ferrari dealer who was also the North American distributor at that time.  (Of course, my salary that year as a medical intern was $8500 plus an apartment for me and my wife.) Try not to want the SAT turntable and tonearm, and you will feel a lot better.  We can agree the prices are ridiculous and so what?

lewm, you miss my point, and maybe it hasn’t been made clear enough in my prior posts. I really couldn’t give a darn if Marc Gomez wants to price his stuff in the ether, the only one who is going to suffer from that is himself. My point is that the continued unabated upwards pricing structure by so many high end manufacturer’s really is NOT good for the overall health of this hobby ( as my friend stated, it is now basically ’comical’),as evidenced by the many younger folk who look at these pricing points and decide to take a pass on the whole hobby. I personally have absolutely zero interest in the SAT turntable, as IMO there are plenty of other competing designs that I think would be a) more appropriately priced, b) give close to or similar performance and c) are far superior looking.
BTW, IF you saw a Ferrari 250GTO in 1972 for $12.5K--and didn’t get to buy it, i dont think this is quite analogous to being able (or not) to buy the SAT table for $282K today...unless the little SAT is going to be worth millions in the future! Maybe,LOL.

daveyf

Do explain how my experience, your experience, or anyone’s experience with the table has anything to do with the asking price of this product?

Sure.
There is no substitute for experience. It’s that simple.

Oh, I forgot, you are able to purchase this table with your pocket change, isn’t that right...and think it is a value proposition.

Similarly, snark is no substitute for reason.

I really couldn’t give a darn if Marc Gomez wants to price his stuff in the ether ...

You seem to care about this very much. Why so coy?

Cleeds ,once again audio guru, what does experience have to do with the asking price of this table??

So, here is a perspective, an opinion,

For these upper priced tables, there appears to be about a 3-4:1 ratio between the table the tonearm. With the SAT arm already at $50K, to market a matching table, the table has to cost $150K-$200K. Its part of the brand exclusivity. We see similar type brand-pricing everywhere - cars, watches, etc.

However, from my perspective as someone with an engineering background, this table is not breaking any new state of the art. The motor is a modified Technics; the base is a modified Minus-K isolation platform and as far as the plinth, magnesium alloy has been known for over 50 years to provide superior damping qualities. The SME magnesium tonearm is not by chance. But the review does indicate that a lot of machining was done in Switzerland by the same group that machines parts for Hasselblad (that has a $48K camera w/o lens). So, it is a object where no expense was been spared.

It would have been nice to know how much benefit did the modified Minus-K base provided. You can buy a Minus-K platform for abut $5K - Thin Low Height Vibration Isolation Platforms & Bench Tops | Minus K. Otherwise, the design is very compact and compared to others could be very appealing, especially those that already have a SAT arm. Is this table going to be trickle-down - no; the primary technologies - the motor, the base, the plinth are all tried and true - but not necessarily together. And, it is entirely possible that the table & arm form a ’magical’ synergy that the whole exceeds the sum of the parts and it sounds awesome. But, how does it compare to say the Basis A.J. Conti: Transcending Perfection — Basis Audio - that Fremer has never reviewed - TAS RH got the scoop on that table.

Yes, the cost of the extreme upper echelon of audio has reached staggering heights - along with the incomes of the very rich; and of course where this is desire - someone is going to fulfil it. However, there are so many other lower cost awesome products that it would be a shame for some to view this hobby-pursuit with contempt, because they will miss-out on the journey if they choose and the enjoyment of so much awesome music when played back through a nice system.

Just some thoughts

 @antinn  Thanks for that. I think the Basis Transcendence is awfully hard to beat, and it is a fraction of the price of the new SAT...even with the Superarm 9 or 12 mounted! 

It is also awful ugly (the Basis). The SAT is plain Jane. Now the Air Force Zero, that is a piece of work. $450K

You can do anything if you throw enough money at it. The trick and the point of this hobby is to get as close as you can without spending a fortune. 

Music Rules

Davey, I can't agree with you that stratospheric product pricing such as we see with regard to SAT is going to ruin the hobby.  On the contrary, I see it as one more sign of life.  For youngsters or first-timers who want to play vinyl, SAT is a total nonentity.  Most of them will never have heard of SAT, except perhaps as some sort of weird joke.  In the last few months, I have been contacted by two separate friends for vinyl system recommendations. One is my 30-something nephew in Michigan. The other is the son of my best friend who wanted to buy a vinyl system for his teenage daughter, to fulfill her birthday wish.  They ended up with turntables in the low end of the spectrum, cost-wise, that can be ordered any day of the week from any of several vendors on-line.  The fact that a 15 year old girl wants to get into vinyl is another sign of vigor, even though she may never want much more than what she is starting out with.  (I sent her a few jazz LPs to get her going further.) That end of the market is very healthy, so far as I can tell.  In each case, appropriate electronics were chosen to go with the turntable.  For others with bigger bucks, as you note too, there is a plethora of new and used turntables that perform at a very high level for reasonable cost, relative to the SAT. (You can use the SAT as a reason why spending $10,000 or more on a turntable is "reasonable".)  That was basically my message to you in my last post.  By the way, based on antinn's description of the SAT, it seems the Dohmann Helix, with its built-in Minus K platform, would also come into play as a great buy at a reasonable cost, especially used. I've heard that one, and it is one of a few belt-drives that have impressed me in the past few years.

The 250GTO was sitting in the rear service area at Luigi Chinetti's Ferrari dealership in Greenwich, CT, in 1971.  Next to it was a 250LM, the first mid-engine Ferrari race car.  Next to that was a Daytona Spider, a real one.  The asking price for the 250LM was also $12,500.  The Daytona was essentially a nearly new used car at that time and was priced at $23,000.  In the late 60s, the going price for a low mileage 275GTB was $6-7000. You could buy one every week at that price.  I actually thought about financing either the GTO or the LM, but I decided I would also need a garage, which was a no-go for me at that time. Of course, I would do differently if I had a second chance.

lewm

Davey, I can’t agree with you that stratospheric product pricing such as we see with regard to SAT is going to ruin the hobby.

I can’t possibly imagine how the presence of one high-priced product - or even 5, or 10, or 2,500 - could possibly destroy an entire industry. It really takes a leap of logic to believe otherwise.

High-priced products have long been part of audio’s high end. That’s nothing new.

I forgot to mention that Davey was right to point out there is no analogy between the value or cost of vintage Ferrari race cars and the SAT turntable or tonearms.  I think the masochist in me just loves to tell that story.

It is unfortunate that IME having spoken to a number of college age folks that the overall impression that they have of our hobby is that it is one for the ultra well to do.( they seem to believe this from their exposure to the high priced gear that exists in the hobby, and remember that to most...a thousand dollars is beyond their reach...so when we are talking of gear that costs as much as most people’s houses, well!!) While what lewm says is true, there is a revived interest in vinyl, it has ( from what I can tell) nothing to do with the audiophile hobby, and more to do with the physical media itself.

I thought the most interesting part of the SAT TT review was comparing it favorably to the OMA slate and cast iron TT.
Has anyone heard that one?

While what lewm says is true, there is a revived interest in vinyl, it has ( from what I can tell) nothing to do with the audiophile hobby, and more to do with the physical media itself.

The largest turntable market here in New Zealand by a considerable margin is not audiophiles, it is university students buying DJ decks from music shops - low cost direct drives from Pioneer/Technics et al.

@daveyf 
@lewm 

I forgot to mention that Davey was right to point out there is no analogy between the value or cost of vintage Ferrari race cars and the SAT turntable or tonearms.  

I'm not so sure. I see the arm and turntable quite differently.

From my perspective I could make the SAT turntable myself. The engineering and technology can be purchased through outsourcing quite easily today. My guesstimate would be 25-35k US$ would be more than sufficient. 

By contrast I could not manufacture the tonearm so easily. The costs of the carbon fiber arm including set up would be quite substantial, even here in New Zealand where we have access to world class carbon fiber composition curtesy of our yachting industry. The bearings and metal fabrication are relatively straightforward.

What we dont know is how many hours of designing, specification , producing, testing and trialling prototypes have gone into the design of the tonearm.

Conversely you could produce the turntable straight off the design board. Its not that complicated.

My perception is that the arm and turntable are out of whack with regard to pricing relative to each other.

 

@dover   The question is also whether the pricing is also out of whack with the market in general? I guess only time will tell.
BUT I still think this has absolutely nothing to do with the value of rare Ferrari's today..and what they could possibly be acquired for forty years ago in relation to the SAT table and its current (comical to me) asking price.

Lewm, you can always find a nice XKE :)

Dear @headphone dreams and friends: As almost always the MF review oft he SAT TT is mainly subjective according the MF " priorities " and we have to remember that he " worked " as " marketing director " of SAT when appeared its tonearm. Thank’s to MF that tonearm success was inmediatly after his review. As I said according his " priorities ".

THat review was in " theory " about the SAT TT and the minimum responsability of any reviewer is to test that DD against other DD TTs and along that test the SAT TT with some tonearms as: Kuzma, Triplanar, Rega,Reed, SME and the like including the Cobra and if Fremer wants to test it against BD TTs and with the SAT tonearm go a head.


" he focused on four main areas: isolation from external disturbances, speed stability, rigidity, and vacuum hold-down. "

All really desired TT characteristics for any audiophile/customer. However SAT gives no single fact/measures that those targets were achieved. Thera are not measured specs as: speed stability in the short and long periods of time ( what MF did it shows that the TT has a 0.04% speed stability swing. To bad for that price. ), wow and flutter, signal to noise ratio, etc.

Tha’s the way Fremer does things because in my opinion he has the responsability as a proffesional reviewer to ask those measurements to the manufacturer and if the manufacturer has not then he must says it in the review. Is a shame that he almost never does it.

He is only a typical reviewer: " I like it and it’s the best around the world ". Maybe that could be but customers/audiophilesd need facts/proves not only: " listen it and decide ".


"" Marc Gomez seems to believe that the way to his success with these products is to price them so high that they are in the ether .""

Not exactly he trust in his marketing director.


""" The XD1 shares some sonic characteristics with Rega’s revolutionary RP10 turntable: ultrafast, clean transients throughout the audible frequency range; tight, fast bass; revealing midrange transparency; and overall sonic stability and focus. """

MF said it in his review and for me the most important issue in that review about the quality performance levels of the SAT TT.



"""" is not whether someone should be pushing the boundaries of what can be done, but whether the result should be connected to some kind of value proposition. """"

Agree because does not exist a value proposition.


""""" is an acceptable price for pushing the boundaries of what is possible with hifi and sound quality """""

Who told you that the SAT TT " pushed the boundaries of what is possible....".

The TT apports almost nothing to the TT kind of designs, exist nothing new/novelty or unique that appears for the very first time in the audio history and @antinn resumed it in his statements:


""""" this table is not breaking any new state of the art. The motor is a modified Technics; the base is a modified Minus-K isolation platform and as far as the plinth, magnesium alloy has been known for over 50 years to provide superior damping qualities """""


And @dover said he can build easily a TT and all we know that’s true.

SAT does not disclose any where and neither MF in his review to waht kind of tests were made it with the overall SAT design and build excecution.
Not only measured tests/specs but the voicing tests in different room/systems and against different TT/tonearm/cartridge combinations.

Of course that the TT will be sold as " hot bread " because exist several audiophiles that already own TTs with even higher prices and others that loves their SAT tonearm.

Some manufacturers/reviewers take advantage of the, fortunated for them, very low knowledge levels of some audiophiles and customers.

Yes, for me the SAT TT is not a matters of $$$ but about our knowledge levels in audio and MUSIC. Are we/audiophiles whom buy those kind of audio products having merits or not. Market determines the price and we all are an active and main part of that market that is the home of the corrupted AHEE.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

@rauliruegas  Raul, I agree with almost everything that you state in your post. However, you assume that Marc Gomez has a marketing director, do we know this? Also, even if he does, surely as the owner of the company he would have final say over something as important as the pricing structure of his product. ( at least I would hope so!).

Dear @daveyf  : I talked of " marketing director " and posted with quotation marks in a figurative way telling that MF worked in the SAT tonearm review as he was that marketing SAT figure. As a fact in the begining of the SAT TT review he precisely comment about.

With out the MF SAT tonearm the SAT success probably does not arrived so fast as it happened.

Audiophiles bougth the tonearms at " blind " trusting only in the MF review.

R.

@rauliruegas LOL, now that you clarify your post to include MF as his marketing director ( and you could add as his ad writer as well), I agree with you 100%. 
It boggles my mind that ANYONE would buy a product as expensive as the SAT arm ( or worse the table) based solely on a review, ( by MF or anyone else); BUT i guess this does happen! Personally, and IMHO, IF anyone buys something in that manner, they have only got themselves to blame if something doesn't meet their expectations....As the old saying goes: 'a fool and his money......'.

And I just ordered a copy of "Still Crazy..." from Acoustic Sounds, based largely on your review of same, plus my own appreciation of Paul Simon and his music.  $125 for an LP is not quite on the same plane with t$50,000 for an SAT tonearm, but there you go.

@grooves Nice of you to stop by!
I also think you have earned a lot of trust but that is, as usual, up to each one of us to decide. I don't even own a turntable but often enjoy your reviews anyway. I definitely put things on my short list based on reviews.

Regarding things in this price bracket I do think I would try to travel somewhere to listen for myself before buying. Purely hypothetical since I can't afford it anyway. Even an airplane ticket from Europe or North America to Sweden is pretty cheap compared to the price of the SAT X1. And if someone is wealthy enough to buy this without saving money first they might also think it is worth a try since they can probably sell it at a "small" loss if it does not suit their taste.