Harley quote


Regarding two aftermarket power cables: "These differences in the shapes of the musical waveforms are far too small to see or measure with even the most sophisticated technology, yet we as listeners not only routinely discriminate such differences, we sometimes find musical meaning in these differences."

 Nonsense. Just because people claim to "routinely discriminate" differences doesn't mean it's true or they're right. Apparently many have witnessed UFOs but that doesn't mean they actually saw extraterrestrial visitors, does it? Some have seen/heard a deity speaking to them "routinely"; does that imply that they are surely communing with an unseen/unmeasurable spiritual force(s)? Can we not put a little more effort into confirmatory reality-testing first when "the most sophisticated technology" can find nothing in 2020? (Of course, speaker cables can measure differently as per here, here, even if not necessarily audible in many cases by the time we connect amp to speaker.)

ARCHIMAGO
128x128fuzztone
Just posting one critic’s critique of another brings out the fan boys and alchemists in such a predictable way it’s like self propigating soup.

BTW DSD is better than analog AND hi res PCM digital but this is not a thread for that opinion.
Wow.. what a thread.. everything from rocks to the ice age..  somehow this relates to audio cables? Or just more ways to insult others who disagree ?
Maybe in biblical days the rocks and stones themselves would start to sing, as described  in Jesus Christ Superstar. maybe that inspired double blind testing and people getting stoned by those who disagreed. Not much different than this virtual hate fest. 
Goethe said it in his elliptic and very clear way:

«There is no theory behind facts»

He add that learning to perceive the facts is the theory itself...

To be understood very clearly he said also:

« The History of science IS science»
What a long post just simply saying there are scientific theories, not laws based on evidence in the physical world.

Back to the physical world....
High end audio is the pursuit of perfection in a world of individuals that each have different inherent tools, in their ears, their minds and the connectivity of the ear and mind. Exploration into known aspects and ...critically... unknown aspects in unknown combination with each other and the known aspects.

Of course there will be conflict. Part of scientific exploration, it is.

Attempts to lock it into engineering rigor will fail, at every single turn.

To add, science has rigor but does not use facts. Science has only theories, as facts cause the arrow of progress to turn back on itself or be in error in perpetuity... as it contains no potential for error correction.

Thus the need for scientific rigor is extremely high in science. This, in order to maintain correctness of course... as a system of self correction, in the one given way. It works, as well as it can. It’s all we can ask. (Scientific rigor...is predominately mental discipline in assessment of data or information/observation--ie the logic of philosophy, where philosophy is science’s actual parent and origin point. Philosophy being about systems of logic/rigor in human thought, one might say. Thus Descartes generally ill applied ’I think, therefore I am’, as a basis of the scientific revolution, expressed in the one way)

At the same science and scientific logic rigor...cannot, under any circumstances, ascribe human law and punishment for violation of laws, into the concept and idea of science as a system of overall human advancement.

Thus science itself, vehemently and by extreme force in all areas (when pushed hard enough), denies the potential for scientific laws to exist.

Theory, only theory. At any and all price.

Engineers use facts as their point of origin as an enterprise and occupation, as a planned for occupational system of principle education and actual day to day usage after the formal teaching period has ended.

This is all about the idea of using the main mental component of standard human dogmatism, where dogmatism and projection into it...is essentially the main psychological constructs of mind in commonality, in humans.

Rote repetitive learning, laws of physics... here’s your law text/religious documents.. that fits your (bulk of humanity’s) projection of mind...and... go forth and build things. Safe things that don’t kill people but work, with some universality within their systems of constraint.

One can see this playing out in just about any post on this forum where the contentious subjects are being discussed.

Some say ’science!’, where they really mean ’dogma!’ (and butchery for all violators of projected law)as they use ’science law’.. laws of physics.

The laws of physics is a thing that does not exist, whatsoever. A thing designed for dogmatic minds, so they can be useful to building out a scientifically enabled world.

Then the theorists can do their work of dealing with what is an actual malleable theoretical enabled world of exploration where they can move forward and not get caught up in curling around themselves and being in a dead end that goes nowhere... as laws prevent it from doing so. CRITICAL. CORE.

~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~


Ie, I can go to any (top) university department and ask the head professors in all the high levels of physics, where the leading edge of things is taught... and any and all of those professors...will look at me like I’ve got three heads, if I mention the idea, or questions that any one of them teaches their students with ’the laws of physics’.

The reality being that they EXPLICITLY disallow anyone to be taught that physics has laws.

So when I get onto these forums and someone screams "laws of physics!, you are crazy, you can’t hear those things, the measurements don’t show it -they cant be true!..

well..

At that moment...I know that I’m very very likely dealing with dogmatic based mind projections that have absolutely nothing to do with science and/ or exploration. and are merely force projections of mind due to ego issues and whatnot.

Interestingly enough, about a month ago, Elon Musk clarified this point and corrected everyone, via twitter, that they are, at SpaceX, in actuality.... rocket ENGINEERS, not Rocket scientists.

Concerning this core point I make, Elon made sure that people know he does not approve of the ’rocket science’ label as it is wholly misapplied. He build rockets with facts, not theories. Rocket engineering is no place for theoretical games.

Leave that exploration to the real world of physicists and their creation and or sorting of the new data points... that engineers can then use to build out the world.

But, since the theories are subject to change in the face of new data and new observations, the engineers can build with their facts and laws but, critically, essentially... engineering and dogmatic mindsets CANNOT demand that others who are exploring the unknown and undefined areas of the world somehow conform to their dogmatic projections of mind.

If an engineering dogmatic mind comes along and demands such slavish obeisance as a projection upon others, it deserves to be slapped down, openly, publicly, and hard. For all the right reasons. As their actions and desires are the death of progress, killed in it’s cradle.

Now, with that out on the open, what’s so hard to understand? Is the blinkered dogmatism, the blind spot... about the nature of science? I just cleared that up....

So go ahead... burn me at the stake, if the desire possesses. Crucify me. Show yourself openly.

True @mahgister. However, once you’ve conquered those issues, upgrading equipment can improve the sound, sometimes dramatically.
It is a common place fact that my vintage Sansui AU 7700 so good it is and it is a very good amplifier, cannot beat the new ZOLT technology of Berning for example or many other improved design at very higher cost...

My point is when you know how to install an "only" good gear, upgrading may seems suddenly ludicrous, controlling embeddings is the WAY in audiophile experience at any cost, not upgrading...

But for sure if i inherit the money i will upgrade to the ZOTL... But i dont give a damn about it now , the urge is dead now, because the vibraphone changing colors and hues in his slow decays are in my room already....There is better to come possibly but i can live with what i have and this is the point...

I created an "upgrade effect" at no cost for the last 2 years with the same system, only experimenting with the 3 working dimensions of my system....

I listen music now and  dont read much  reviews anymore...
😁
True @mahgister. However, once you've conquered those issues, upgrading equipment can improve the sound, sometimes dramatically. Just beware of the law of diminishing returns....and upgradeitis. People spending monopoly money on stereo equipment is good for the economy and the manufacturers they support. They want the hottest/latest/"best" reviewed. If not for them, we'd all have less manufacturers, and less choice, and certainly higher used equipment prices, and that would not be a good thing.

It's just like with cars. Some people want the brand new 2021 model and are willing to pay list or close to list price to be the first one on their block with it. For an example, a Porsche 911 may depreciate $40-50K during an initial 2-3 year lease of $2K/month, and then someone (like me) can get one with an extended manufacturers warranty and 99% of the enjoyment at a the depreciated price. Is it worth $50K to me to get the last 1% cachet - no way. The law of diminishing returns strikes once again. The best are the monopoly money guys (or girls) who BUY new and keep them for a year or less (I've heard of one that keeps them for about 3 months) and take a ridiculous hit. But they don't care, and if they're happy because they got a different color or a cabriolet for springtime, I'm happy that they make the cars more accessible. Otherwise there would be way fewer on the market and the prices would be even higher.
Audio experience has nothing to do with money first...

Audio experience has nothing to do with upgrade first...

Audio experience has nothing to do with blind consumerism...

Audio experience is the question you ask yourself about the system you already own which was carefully chosen, with your purse limitations, and the question is: how do i install in his working dimensions optamally what i own for listening it at his optimal level....

There is plenty of example of very costly system that sound bad or harsh because people never figure it out.... Replacing gear is NOT audiophile experience....

Experiencing natural timbre and good imaging on ANY system because we know how to control the working dimensions is audio experience.....
@cleeds - @djones is talking about spending money and getting worse sound. Of course it is a bad investment - no one is talking about that. We are talking about value in improved SQ for each incremental dollar spent. The law of diminishing returns (for audio equipment specifically) just simply states that all things being equal, for each incremental dollar spent the sound improvement decreases. Of course if poorly paired equipment (or just overpriced stuff) there can be a degradation. It is most appropriate/evident within a product line of a manufacturer. 

In the discussion of an overall integrated system, you can talk about new HVAC systems, new power lines, room renovation, beyond equipment.

When dealers pay 60% (or less) for equipment, most used stuff is immediately depreciated that 40%. Now, if you can find equipment that holds that 60% long term, you have better value, especially if you buy it used.

I am trying to help cure people from upgradeitis, and to enjoy what they have and improving their existing equipment with the positive connotation of tweaks, where they are audible, not just measurable.
djones51
Audiophiles with more money than common sense have gone beyond diminishing returns they’ve reached negative returns.
With only rare exceptions, pretty much all audio equipment results in a negative return because it depreciates so quickly. Audio equipment is part of a hobby, not an investment.
Audiophiles with more money than common sense have gone beyond diminishing returns they've reached negative returns. 
audio2design

Apparently what I wrote was too nuanced for you to understand Cleeds. My apologies. I am sure it was clear to most.
Don’t be silly. Your "nuance" doesn’t conceal your ill logic. If two components can objectively be shown to be different, then one can be shown to be superior to the other, at least in theory.
... in reality at some point there is no audible improvement, and many changes are only different, not better. 
Many of your pronouncements suffer from faulty logic, @audio2design, and I just ignore them. But this one was exceptionally absurd.
cleeds3,579 posts01-23-2021 12:16pm audio2design
Diminishing returns is the term used by audiophiles with more money than common sense in order to justify that there will always be an improvement ...
The concept of diminishing returns is a well-established principle. It is a very real thing, not some imaginary factor.
... in reality at some point there is no audible improvement, and many changes are only different, not better.
You contradict yourself. If a change results in a difference, then it's possible to establish whether it is better or worse, both objectively (at least in theory) and subjectively.



Apparently what I wrote was too nuanced for you to understand Cleeds. My apologies. I am sure it was clear to most.

I am a scientist, not an engineer. However, there are a great many things in the physical world that exist but cannot be measured. That is the purpose of scientific discovery.
Neurosis runs deep with us audiophiles
Listening music especially some type of music, is a therapeutic for all neurosis, especially the audiophile one....



«In the poison is the remedy» -Hippocrates
Thanks for the correction cleeds...

Point of diminishing return is way more nearer to us that most think it is.... On that i am with audiodesign...

But i accept your precision about the fact that we can always judge if a difference is better or worse, subjectively and objectively, indeed if a difference is perceived ...

But the essential is that this " point" is always objectively nearer to us that we subjectively think it is....




This point is objective in 2 direction, then this point is an oriented line or a VECTOR in his simplest form or a TENSOR if we analyse his many dimensions...

One direction TOWARD this moving point for ALL audiophiles is determined by the factors linked to improving design, and improving embedding controls...(Objective factors)

The other direction FROM this point, at an instant T, for a specific audiophile is determined by the listening history of this audiophile....(Subjective factor)

(If you link the 2 directions dynamically you have a tensor which describe the many factors constituting the potential history of all audiophiles)

Then this point represent in itself an history in design experiments and listenings experiments which is more a surface (a phase space) than a simple "point"....

Not the elusive and illusory "point" that audiodesign say it is.....Then calling this phenomena that linked price and quality design/ to S.Q. increase, calling that a "POINT" is in itself misleading....Because some less attentive person after that can call this point only "an illusion".... 😁

But he is perrfectly right about the fact that this point is always nearer to us than we think....And this fact is essential to understand some aspect of the audio phenomenon .....

Sometimes audiodesign is right.... But not always for the good reason..... 😊




«Are you sure that using tensors can help someone to understand history?»-Groucho Marx
audio2design
Diminishing returns is the term used by audiophiles with more money than common sense in order to justify that there will always be an improvement ...
The concept of diminishing returns is a well-established principle. It is a very real thing, not some imaginary factor.
... in reality at some point there is no audible improvement, and many changes are only different, not better.
You contradict yourself. If a change results in a difference, then it's possible to establish whether it is better or worse, both objectively (at least in theory) and subjectively.
Diminishing returns is the term used by audiophiles with more money than common sense in order to justify that there will always be an improvement when in reality at some point there is no audible improvement, and many changes are only different, not better.   That point comes somewhat early(ish) in electronics, quite a bit later in speakers and acoustics.
I am glad to say that  this is right and i think the same thing....  You definitely knows much.... But just less than you think..... 😊

My best to you....
rja2,238 posts01-18-2021 4:41pmPlease Audiogon, make them stop!
I can't take it anymore.



It hurts less with a good single malt.

douglas_schroeder2,860 posts01-18-2021 6:58am"Diminishing returns " is the subjective excuse by budget Audiophiles for not putting more into their system. It's an excuse for Lower Fi. Pretending you're doing all that, without doing it. :(
Mostly, the phrase is used by people ignorant of the performance spectrum.  


Diminishing returns is the term used by audiophiles with more money than common sense in order to justify that there will always be an improvement when in reality at some point there is no audible improvement, and many changes are only different, not better.   That point comes somewhat early(ish) in electronics, quite a bit later in speakers and acoustics.
Buy what you can afford,
choose what sounds good to your ears,
play around with placement a bit and try some affordable cables to compare!  Sit back and enjoy ☺️ 
Diminishing returns " is the subjective excuse by budget Audiophiles for not putting more into their system. It’s an excuse for Lower Fi. Pretending you’re doing all that, without doing it. :(
Mostly, the phrase is used by people ignorant of the performance spectrum.
Do you realize that this law only means that to get to the top we must always pay more and there exist a relative point, different for each of us, where the investment is no more atttractive for what we will get from it?

No?


Your post is like the post of sellers who want to sell something, whatever the cost, and who is ready to use this evidence to depreciate what we humble mortal called Hi-Fi experience...

With 500 bucks from my used audio system, the piano and the orchestra fill my room 3-d in 2 positions of listening....Is my system the best? not at all.... Is it satisfying ? yes.. Is it because i never listen to a highly costly one? My system gives me a better sound that all the systems i listen to to date....I dont need to invest to reach more of the same....Or a little bit more for 12,000 bucks( i already calculate what i must buy to beat mine) 😁

Your ignorance is easy to explain, no system, whatever the cost can reach his optimal working if it is not righfully embedded mechanically, electrically and acoustically... This is the fact that separate true hi-fi from ordinary bad system....Under some very high price, most of the times it is not the price paid for electronic component that define hi-fi experience, it is the embeddings controls.......Most reviewers dont know that and those who knows dont write it in CAPITAL letters why? Because their job is to sell...Look at yourself and see yourself for what you are: a seller....

It is evident that costly system have a superior potential...
But it is evident that using  this fact to depreciate the experience of others is only a sellers method...And ignoring what rightful methods of controls can do is  ignorance...
@dadork - its common for amps and other components to come with junk power cords or none at all because people have preferences. I don't think it reflects whatsoever on the inside of the boxes.

Of course they make a difference, just beware of the law of diminishing returns.....
@douglas_schroeder - so you don't think the law of diminishing returns applies to audio equipment or is an excuse for LowFi? It is not an excuse, but a fact, and LowerFi is in the eye of the beholder, and sounds very snobbish.You can't tell someone how much $$ to put in their system. People have all different values, even audiophiles (self-described or otherwise). 

Hopefully, audiophiles have an idea of what they've spent on their system or what it lists for or what it's currently worth or some measurement of expenditure. 99% of people have some limit. If you are part of the 1% (no similarity to Bernie Sanders' comments intended) then good for you. I know I spent a hell of a lot more of my available cash on stereo equipment and records when I was in college than I do now, but what I spend now is greater than when my kids were still on the payroll. Everything is relative. If they are not part of the 1% and have no idea what they have or are spending, I'd like to play poker with them.

If you're part of the 99%, then you recognize, and consciously or subconsciously act on the law yourself, and are not operating with Monopoly money. Whether you are going from a $2K system to a $3K system, $5K, $10K, $20K, $30K, $50K, $100K, $150K, $250K, $500K or $1M+ with each jump should come SQ improvement (unless you got terrible advice or don't know how to set it up) that you can hear and appreciate. Whether it (or any purchase) is worth the expenditure is up to the consumer. Frankly, any investment should be judged by the sound improvement it makes; equipment, sound treatments, cables, tweaks, whatever. Some quasi-audiophiles only care about how cool or nice their system looks, and if that's what floats their boat, even include that in your value analysis as people consider it furniture, which certainly can change the equation. And it's OK to care about both.

I don't think anyone who contributes or reads this sight is IGNORANT of this, and there is no reason for antagonizing anyone in the name of snobbery.
Do people who swap out the manufacturer's supplied power cords also swap out the innards of the component they wish to improve on? If they believe a company is skimping on their power cords what makes them think the connection point is going to be any better? Why do you suppose a company would invest so much into R&D and spend so much time and care on the internal components of their equipment to end up saying "Well shoot, let's top this masterpiece off with a cheap power cord?" If you spend thousands on a power cord but you don't upgrade the supposed poor internal electronics what have you achieved?

"Diminishing returns " is the subjective excuse by budget Audiophiles for not putting more into their system.  It's an excuse for Lower Fi. Pretending you're doing all that, without doing it.  :(
Mostly, the phrase is used by people ignorant of the performance spectrum.  
@mahgister- very true. There is used equipment out there for very reasonable prices (I finally recently sold a very good sounding B &K amp and Belles Research preamp form the 80s and 90’s for a total of $400. Great core for a fine sounding system. Would have kept them if I didn’t want a volume control ina a remote.

 I was lucky to find an integrated with ONLY volume and mute functions on the remote- no extra noise with source or other controls, and I still have it for 15 years. No reason to switch unless it breaks (crossing my fingers) and if it did, I would most likely get another used or demo model with minimal functionality (no digital tuning or streaming crap). I got tremendous improvement from putting my turntable on a a wall shelf ($179) and putting in a vibration control platform on it - a little more but WAY less than a new cartridge or turntable which would not have made anywhere near as big an improvement for 3-4 (at least) times the investment.
@douglas_schroeder Doug-you’re nuts if you ride on the street. My wife used to and my daughter work in a hospital and the worst they see, and not rarely is motorcycle accidents in ERs. Off roading is fine- at least deadly cars won’t hit you. You still can get hurt pretty badly from getting tossed or the bike hitting you, but you probably won’t get killed.

I was lucky- at age 14 my calf touched the exhaust of a mini cycle (really a beefy mini bike with gas engine) and that bubble on my leg reminded me to never get on one again and I never had the urge.

I too, have the need for speed, at least being behind the wheel of a car puts me on equal ground (mostly since it is a small coupe sports car) with the other cars and especially pick up trucks driven by whackos (not all but a decent %). 

I ride a bicycle and got hit by an idiot who didn’t see me because the sun was in his eyes. Luckily, he was slowing down for a turn and I almost got out of the way-he clipped my rear wheel. Haven’t been able to find a replacement because of supply chain issues. Now I won’t ride within an hour of sun down.
+1 russbutton, waiting for riding season! 

Humorus anecdote; when I got my 2016 Yamaha FJ-09 I was surprised the first time the dealer started it up - it's a 3 cylinder and frankly, sounds like an oversized sewing machine. I thought, "What kind of kiddie sound is this?" But, the other aspects of the bike, the features and performance are very much to my liking. 

OTOH, I very much dislike loud bikes and would not own one. So, I'll take the "sewing machine" sound with the very nice performance.  I could switch out the exhaust for something more rugged, but then I'm heading toward the obnoxious end again. 

One goal I have in riding is to protect my ears as much as possible. I always wear foam plugs and have a very good, full helmet as regards noise reduction. It's shocking how loud wind noise can be! I install as high of windshields as possible to block air for reduction of wind noise. 
I do not depend on hearing when riding, as it is reduced in order to protect the hearing. I don't make a move unless I can see it. 

HELP FOR RIDERS: I have no clue why this is not done OEM in the industry, but I always buy the small (approx. 1.5") convex mirrors for autos or trucks and put them on the cycle's mirrors! Superb extra coverage of field of vision! It allows full rear vision! Why cycles do not come with such as standard safety feature, I have no clue, but I would not be without them!  :) 
Thanks sokogear....

Just a remark to say that the diminishing return laws applies in all case...

But all my devices are homemade and cost peanuts then it is impossible for most to trust the fact that for peanuts we can create a more than good Hi-fi system...




There are 2 things to consider:

1) what is theoretically (scientifically, measurably) better
2) what is audibly noticeably better

Some people want “the best” - even though we know there is no “best” regardless of cost. They’ll pay/do anything even for only consideration 1 above. Sometimes, it is free to get the scientific benefit (cables not touching, etc). 
Then some can be of varying expense- making sure wires are not moving or vibrating internally in components,  making sure stylus is not subject to outside vibration. Room treatments, silver cable wire, $40K phono stages.
Beware of the law of diminishing returns and what you can actually hear, not what you think you hear. Psychoacoustics. Listen for yourself. Take reviews, especially in publications with advertisers, with a grain of salt. Seems like everything they listen to is great and a great value compared to the competition. Of course that is impossible.

Happy listening and testing.
I am the 5th group as well 🙂
I know i could not be alone, welcome....😌


Interesting article thanks...

If i summarize correctly:

First group: faithful reproduction of the original lived musical event is the fundamental criterion.

Second group: ask for the best material format which is supposed to "accurately" reproduce the original lived event...

Third group: ask only for pleasant listening without anything else...Dont care about sound but more about music pleasure...

Fourth group: listen to numbers or to the right design....





This article illustrate for me tough most of the misunderstandings about audiophile experience more than any other thing...



Where is the fifth group ? The only one which interest me .....




Those who listen music first, not only sound, but those who knows that audiophile experience is the meeting of sound with music in the RECREATION of instrumental TIMBRE experience with a specific system created to produce this experience of a natural timbre, when and if, the system is rightfully embedded in the mechanical, electrical and acoustical dimension...We dont need the costlier system, we need a rightfully embedded good one...

This group dont buy the naive faith and unscientific belief of the perfect reproduction of a live original event Illustrated by the 2 first groups... This fifth group know that all music is recreated, more than reproduced, from the original theater through many trade-off choices by engineers, recreated then in their listening room but ONLY if the right embeddings conditions are in place...

The fifth group differ from the third group because they ask for a more immersive pleasure like them BUT with also an adequate sound... We cannot listen to Mahler symphonies with the same pleasure on a top system or with a very bad one...Without being obsessed by sound they ask for a good one....

The fifth group smile at those who listen mostly to measured numbers, but they dont laugh too much because we need all audio designers, which for the greatest number of them anyway listen music, not measured numbers only ....
BUT this fifth group know that ANY audio system whatever the price, or whatever the measured numbers are, if they are not too bad numbers, will sound or could sound at his peak potential ONLY in its well embedded mechanical, electrical and acoustical settings and dimensions, never mind the design if it is a "relatively" good one....

This fifth group is less easy to caricature than the other four..... Less credulous perhaps?

Perhaps this difficulty to figure out this fifth group is the reason why the writer have no idea about his existence....

😊
My best to all....


This kinda sums up the whole Shabang!!




Jonathan Valin wrote the following essay in response to the Point/Counterpoint in the last issue, in which Robert Greene and I presented diametrically opposed views of the roles of listening and measurement in evaluating audio equipment. —Robert Harley

To start, let me just say that I am very very glad that Dr. Robert E. Greene has recovered from his illness. If you’re comparing big differences to littler ones, what could be bigger than surviving a near-death experience, where being here and not being here are the stakes? I am extremely happy that Dr. Greene is still with us. The petty disagreements about hi-fi that he and I have had over the years matter not—hi-fi itself matters not—in this biggest of all pictures.

Having said that (and said it from my heart), I have to add that denying the existence of sonic differences because they are “too small” to verify by measurement is the exact opposite of Harry Pearson’s “observational” approach to hi-fi. This is not to say that questioning or expanding upon Harry’s ideas (which is what Dr. Greene is doing and what I myself have done and am about to do) is verboten; it’s just that quoting Harry incredibly selectively to support your position on, oh, wide-dispersion loudspeakers and soundstaging, while simultaneously going squarely against his core idea (which is that listening trumps measurement, always and invariably) is more than a bit misleading. 

But rather than chastising Dr. Greene for heresy, let me confess one (very big) heresy of my own: I don’t believe in the absolute sound—at least, I don’t believe in it exclusively. Instead, I see three closely related but nonetheless distinctive and equally valid ways of listening to stereo systems and judging their excellence. 

My first group of listeners, staked out by Harry and this magazine, is what I call the “absolute sound” bunch. For them, the thing that matters most is how closely and convincingly reproduced sound approaches the sound of the real thing. It doesn’t really matter how a speaker or amplifier or turntable or server manages to create the illusion of actual acoustic instruments in a real space; all that matters is that it does—whether that be by design, accident, coincidence, or adherence to or deliberate departure from the measurable (or un-) “truth.” 

While profoundly important and influential, the idea of the absolute sound is not unproblematic. The trouble is that the absolute sound, as I often said to HP, isn’t absolute. What you hear in a concert hall is fundamentally dependent on all kinds of variables (e.g., the hall’s acoustics, where you’re seated in the hall, how the players themselves are spaced on the stage floor, what kind of instruments they are playing, how “warmed up” or not those instruments are, etc.). The result of all this relativity is that what sounds “absolute” to you in your orchestra section seat close by the double basses (which is where Harry customarily sat in Carnegie Hall) may be—in fact, will be, in ways large and small—different than what sounds “absolute” to another listener who sits in the center of the orchestra section or nearer to the strings, or in a loge or a balcony seat. 

My second group of listeners is also looking for the absolute sound, but with an essential proviso: These folks want to hear voices and instruments sound fully realistic when—and only when—the recording has been made in a way that permits them to sound fully realistic. This is what I call the “accuracy” school of listeners, who aren’t really listening first and foremost to music, but rather to the quality of recordings. Fidelity to what is on an LP or a bitstream becomes the central goal of the stereo system and reproducing what was actually miked, mixed, and mastered, warts and all, overrules other considerations. 

The trouble here is that determining what was “actually” recorded is fraught with its own set of problems, not the least of which is the inescapable fact that a recording is made and monitored through a set of speakers (or headphones) and electronics that are fundamentally different than those through which that recording is being played back in your listening room. 

Of course, you could (if you had the access) turn to someone who was actually at the recording session for an informed opinion on how “faithful” your playback is, but then you start bumping up against some of the same issues that vex absolute sound listeners (e.g., where was that audience member seated vis-à-vis the microphones used at the recording session—and how did what he or she heard differ from what the microphones heard at their locations, how reliable is his or her “sonic memory” of the event, how much of what he or she heard is actually reflected in the finished product where edits, compression, and overdubs may have been used, etc.).

Which kind of brings us back to the ineluctable relativity of the listening experience, in the concert hall, in the recording studio, and in the home—a conundrum that is solved (or at least overstepped) by my third group: the “as you like it” or “musicality first” listeners. 

By far the largest of my three sets, musicality listeners are simply looking for a good time. They could care less if the system sounds like the absolute (save to the degree that voices and instruments sounding real increases their enjoyment of and involvement with what they’re hearing), and they aren’t concerned if a system is faithful to sources (save to the extent that better-sounding records make listening more exciting and fun). Truth is, this group is not interested in sound per se. Its adherents are interested in what sound does to them, physically, emotionally, and intellectually. They’re looking for a facsimile of the rapture they feel in a rock club or a concert hall; they’re looking for delight.

Obviously, the problem with putting musicality ahead of everything else is that one man’s musical is another’s mush. In worst case scenarios, musicality amounts to subjectivity taken to an entirely personal extreme. There can be no general standard of what constitutes excellent playback because no standard (except one’s own) is needed or applies. Put simply, you like what you like.

As I noted earlier, these three groups are interrelated: They share a love of “better” sound. What constitutes “better” is where they differ.

This brings me to a fourth set of listeners—one that Dr. Greene, at least in part, seems to sympathize with—the bunch that listens primarily to numbers. 

Based on long experience, I don’t fully relate to this group. Oh, I understand the role that measurements play in designing, say, a loudspeaker, just as I understand the role that measurements play in following a recipe for a mille-feuille pastry or a plate of lièvre à la royale. What I don’t understand is how measurements taken with a microphone from one or even from several spots in an RFZ or an anechoic chamber or a quasi-anechoic setup can tell you, save in broad outlines, what that speaker is going to sound like in a real-world listening room, hooked up to real-world sources, amplifiers, and cables. For me, determining that requires actual listening, just as that pastry or plate of lièvre requires actual tasting. 

I used to pester Harry with some of these thoughts—to get his goat. But whenever I started to go on about, say, the relativity of the absolute sound, he’d stop me short with a single prescient observation that could’ve been his byword: “We all know real when we hear it.” In other words, real is real, whether you’re sitting in the first row or the cheap seats, whether you’re listening to an RCA or a Mercury, whether you’re a fan of acoustic music or rock ’n’ roll.

“We all know real when we hear it.” Figuring out why that should be the case in the face of the obvious contradiction (to wit, a stereo system is manifestly not a real symphony orchestra or a string quartet or a rock group) has been the challenge of a hi-fi lifetime. And I haven’t figured it out yet, save to speculate (as I’ve done recently) that when a stereo sounds “real” it isn’t just a matter of superior parts (such as more powerful intensity, flatter-measuring timbre, longer duration, or more perfect pitch) but also of the way those parts are grouped together—of their gestalt—and that this magical gestalt regrouping of parts depends in some unmistakable way on the neutrality and completeness of the presentation. It is that neutrality and completeness that allows a stereo system to disappear like the Cheshire cat, leaving behind only the music—the cat’s grin.

Well, that’s it, folks. At least, from this corner of The Absolute Sound world. It may not be satisfying and it certainly isn’t specific, but…it’s the best I can do when it comes to summarizing how we listen.


I would suggest that Audiophiles are neurodivergent.   We fixate, hear things others don’t, obsess and repeat things over and over!  We are all on the Autism Spectrum, just depends how neurotic we are...happy listening!
Mahgister has it...cookie cutter, pre fab, advance engineered audio-anything is not a recipe for success in any given environment or for any particular audiophile.  Gotsta play around, mix it up and experiment till the synergy hits!
un fact...experimenting with raising my speaker cables off the carpet and isolating them from vibrations with anti vibration supports and Mapleshade brass weights on top of their network boxes. Sound became dull and less dynamic. Back on carpet....fantastico!! Moral? Gotta play around and above all else USE YOUR EARS 👂. All the advanced acoustic design in the world ain’t necessarily gonna do it for you...keep on truckin:)
Any specific embeddings device works in the limits related to any audio system and in the limits of the other 2 embeddings environment... You are right....

Then i am not surprized by your report that contradict some other  report...
The contradiction only reflect that any solution must be ADAPTED to a specific audio environment and to their specific varied embeddings...😊 The ears cannot perceive in the abstract, they works in a specific environment in front of a specific system....They teach themselves how to listen and perceive in this environment...We all have different listenings histories....


This is why NO TWEAK are a universal solution...And i dont buy them....Even if some for sure are good...

Myself i dont "tweak", i make listenings experiments with my system and after that i create complementary SPECIFIC embeddings devices for the 3 dimensions, mechanical,electrical and acoustical and for my specific audio system....

The ultimate test for the ears is always natural TIMBRE perception... All the other qualities of sound come generally gradually with the implementation of the conditions for natural TIMBRE experience, be it dynamic, imaging, soundstage qualities etc...







Fun fact...experimenting with raising my speaker cables off the carpet and isolating them from vibrations with anti vibration supports and Mapleshade brass weights on top of their network boxes.  Sound became dull and less dynamic.  Back on carpet....fantastico!!  Moral?  Gotta play around and above all else USE YOUR EARS 👂. All the advanced acoustic design in the world ain’t necessarily gonna do it for you...keep on truckin:)
"Distortion can sound subjectively good, but its not correct and is something to be avoided."
What? You do not like pulling styrofoam over glass?
“Some of the supposedly best designed rooms are often horrible sounding.”
No. A correctly constructed and outfitted room will sound right, by definition.
A small ordinary room is defined by his geometry ( form+proportion, by his topology (doors+windows) and very importantly by the acoustical different properties of the different materials contituting his content (furniture+books,vinyl,cd, flowers,lamps etc +walls-ceilings-floors) ...

NO equations here, even computerized pre-fabricated solutions will or could replace completely the human ears....

Designed room are NOT small living room, but even them need the ears designers piloting the work....

Then laws of acoustics dont replace ears....Practical acoustic is an ART based science...

To focus on something relatively minor like cables, while ignoring the laws of acoustics, is something else to be avoided.
Here you are more than right....

My greatest discovery in audio, is that upgrading electronic design is often secondary ,if a certain quality product is being acquired... The most important factors being most of the times the 3 embeddings controls dimensions of the audio systems : mechanical,electrical and acoustical embeddings...

Not knowing that is condemning oneself to chaising his tail or chaising the dragon tail , in the 2 cases entering in an endless pit throwing money into the abyss....

Or endlessy arguing meaninglessly about cables, after being deceived by one or after buying a  good one, and at worst, arguing at the end  with  anti cables zealot of scientism... 😁