Mudbone - I see from a prior post that you owned the Rethm Braava as well. I've heard both the Braava and the Sonner Legato (Unum, not the Duo) at the NY Audio Show and CAF and found them to be very different in their presentation. The Braava threw a huge soundstage but sounded slightly soft on transients and rolled off on the top end, the Sonner more dynamic and a bit bright and less full in the midrange. I also heard the Sonner Allegro with a SET amp with a similar sonic signature. Does this match up to your experience with these two? Also, did you compare the Sonner Duo with the Unum? It would seem reasonable that with the additional bass driver and larger cabinet that the Duo would have a more fleshed out mid and lower bass response.
Harbeth vs Vandersteen vs Sonner
Hello All. I am considering a new system and after listening to the Harbeth 30.2's with Rogue Electronics I thought I was sold. Recently, however, I heard the Sonner Legato Duo's and was quite impressed. Since the Sonners have been compared to the Vandersteen Cleo CT's I am now planning to give the Cleos a listen too. Is anyone in a position to comment on how these speakers compare?
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@tomic601 , Great point. I put my preamp and subs on Townshend platforms and bars. IMHO, it 'tightened' up the sound, especially the bass.-Just a clearer/cleaner sound. I want to add some Pods to my monoblocks, but they are so dang heavy... And, to throw fat to the fire. The new AQ power cords are really something. John Rutan recommends starting with Source and working your way down. Bob |
@denon1 My Sonus Fabers are the Olympica Nova I model. I prefer my Harbeth 40.2A's over them but keep in mind the Harbeths cost 3X the price. My 40.2's are in a room that's about 12' x 14', which is "supposed" to be too small of a space for the speakers, but I find the sound to be perfect for the space after tuning and tweaking. For your room size it really depends on your budget. The 40 range of Harbeths will not be too much for your room, if not too much for your wallet. If you can't go that high on your spend you should consider SHL5+ or 30.2's. I used to own a pair of 30's and loved them. I have never owned SHL5's but I have heard them in a store demo. They sounded great. @audition__audio I have heard a few others say what you said about the lossy cabinet design of Harbeth, but in my experience you are in the minority. I will say that there is no one speaker that will suit everyone's tastes (duh!), and this is a good thing. I don't know your specific experience with Harbeth but it sounds like you don't like them. I have found that they sound their best after proper match with amplifier, source components and cabling. I think this is true for every speaker (probably), so it's no revelation what I'm saying, but unless you have owned a pair of Harbeths and have truly worked at getting the most from them I'd say you really haven't heard them in their best light. On the other hand, if you have experienced them fully and simply didn't like the sound, that's OK. I just don't agree with the assessment that lossy cabinets are at fault. The design is intentional, and right, and clearly this opinion is supported my legions of Harbeth loyalists. I personally think B&W speakers sound very unimpressive, but clearly my opinion is wrong according to legions of loyal B&W fans, so I figure I haven't ever heard them in a proper setting. The fun part about this hobby is comparing experiences that a wide and diverse group is having. Cheers, Peter |
i would agree w the statement that lossy cabinets a la spendor harbeth et al provides a sympathetic distortion in the mids and midbass, warming up and giving added body to many types of music, and critics are accurate to say there is a level of homogenization that results in the sound character... same can be said of many tube amps, and we certainly love them nothing wrong with that though -- we are first and foremost pursuing beautiful sounding music that moves us, after all, and 'listenability' is viewed by most appropriately as an asset rather than a liability... 'straight wire with gain' end to end is woefully over rated... |
Well you will never experienced listening fatigue with Harbeths but you also may get tired of the homogenization of the sound. Dont know Sonner so would suggest Vandersteens over Harbeth. Harbeth speaker to my ears are very colored and not in the least bit neutral. I deny the viability of the basic premise of lossy cabinets and think they add a huge amount of coloration to any speaker in which they are used. A dead give away that a speaker is flawed is when others say they are best on a particular type of music. |
@OP, Great to hear your new system is up and running and that you love it! Vandy, Aesthetix, and AQ make a great system. Now....how can I improve it?Well, getting a Sub 3 or two would be my recommendation. Johnny and Samir installed my pair and I have to say I think I have something close to a Quatro. (I'd buy the Quatro's but my space is limited). BTW, Vandersteen has a new forum on the website. It would be nice to see you there. Bob |
One thing I can say about Harbeth in comparison to others (not necessarily the other speakers you are considering), is that when comparing them, other speakers can sound more "exciting", "involving", or any number of similar adjectives used to describe what some will define as "better." The goal with the Harbeth sound is accuracy and neutrality. They are designed to not add anything to the sound that was not part of the original recording. For listeners of rock, this can be less exciting than other speakers that accentuate different frequencies to add body, warmth or excitement. For listeners of jazz, acoustic based music or vocals, there is not much better than Harbeth. I do not advocate that you buy Harbeth, even though they are the best speakers I have owned (I've owned several pairs). BTW, I also own a pair of Sonus Fabers that I find to be fantastic. While they share some things with Harbeth, I would not say the SF speakers sound anything like the Harbeths, and definitely not as good IMHO. Still, I enjoy them for the simple reason of them sounding good in the room I am using them. The one thing I will say in favor of Harbeth is that they are very popular, and can be somewhat hard to find right now. This is not a bad thing, in that they are easy to sell if you change your mind later, and they tend to hold their value better than many other brands. Whatever you decide, please make sure to share your findings here. Happy listening! Peter |
Thanks for asking. Here's what I did: Kept my Well Tempered Table and Arm and installed a Sound-Smith Paua. Purchased an Aesthetix Pallene and Aesthetix Atlas Signature (used). Audioquest Robin Hood cables and McKenzie interconnects. And finally...tada...Vandersteen Treo CT's. Installed GIK acoustic panels as needed. Love, absolutely love the system. Now....how can I improve it? Ha ha. I'll post some pics of my dedicated listening room on my profile. The room is also used for home theater. I replaced the Aerial 7b's with the Vandersteens but kept the Aerial sub, center and surrounds. Use the by-pass mode when watching movies. Oh, and a big thanks to John R and Samir at Audio Connection. |
FYI i have the Rogue Stereo 100 driving Harbeth SHL5+ quite well. It is not your typical 100 watt amp, it is more robust and dynamic sounding than a 150 WPC solid state amp I have. I also comes close to the 200 watt cary audio solid state amp that the stereo 100 replaced. huge transformers, dual mono setup, multiple power suplies and a large array of power capacitors make this one quite powerful yet still smooth, dynamic and transparent. |
(((I guess my concern at the moment is whether or not that is enough power for the Treos ))) We have driven the Vandersteen Treos with a small tube amp the 20 WPC X 2 Quicksilver integrated and it works amazingly well. Because the Treos present an even Load Impedance and the amps have great output transformers. Don't hurt yourself by an assumption the unique time alignment may also win you over as it did for me. Best JohnnyR |
Harbeth is a highly renowned manufacturer of well regarded audiophile monitor like speakers in the BBC tradition for 40 years. They are currently selling at a premium all they can make and orders were 8-12 weeks out before the pandemic hit. Vandersteen is a bootstraps company that is in the conversation for top 5 of the best, most innovative full range speaker systems and is a household name among audiophiles. Sonner Audio appears to have been making speakers for 25 years. The Legato Duo is an attractive speaker with an aluminum woofer, paper cone midrange and ring radiator tweeter. I would like to hear them in an extended listen with a wide variety of recordings. On paper (no pun intended) I would be concerned how the handoff between an aluminum woofer and paper midrange would work, especially at such a low crossover frequency of 200 Hz. Aluminum woofers are about as slow responding as you can get and paper drivers are about as fast as you can get. The concern would be for proper blending and coherence through the crossover frequency regions. I have heard many ring radiator tweeters and while they can sound very good, they are often loaded with too much sizzle that can make for a distorted sound if not properly managed in the crossover. They also tend to be less omni directional than dome tweeters which could lead to a more narrow sweet spot both horizontally and vertically. They may sound great at a demo but an extended session would be needed before I would choose them over Harbeth or Vandersteen. FYI my pick would be for the Harbeth SHL5+ (non anniversary, which are in the range of the 30.2s). I have the privilege of owning them paired with Rogue Audio separates and the sound vs. the 30.2s is more open, transparent and with deeper bass response. |
To the OP , great question- take a look at my Casa Pacifica system in the virtual system section for an idea of room size. I don’t listen very loudly to the Treo CT but every now and then do crank them up into to mid 90’s. They are engineered to be an easy load and can be well driven by a quality 40 wpc class a/b amplifier. I use a NAIM atom but also have a 100 wpc Music Reference RM-9. It’s not a loudness thing, but it is an amazing amplifier- created by a genius ( RIP Roger ) I think there are many many quality SS and Tube amps well suited to Treo. My short list would include: arc, Music Ref, Rogue, VTL, Aesthetix, Ayre, Belles, Line Magnetic... NAIM, I only recommend things I have heard fire away w questions |
clearthinker
Yea, who decided to let amputees into the Olympics? Why should they be allowed to compete? They should know their place, right? |
Thanks to all for your comments. I certainly intend to listen to them all and make my own decision based on my likes/dislikes. Always have. Since I originally intended to go with a 100 watt tube amp (Rogue Stereo 100) I guess my concern at the moment is whether or not that is enough power for the Treos. I hear that they are a bit power hungry. Could I hear from Treo owners as to how much power they are using with their Treo speakers and perhaps whether or not a tube or transistor amp is preferred? |
The reason all athletes don't wear the same shoes is nothing to do with the shoes. It's the millions of dollars the shoe companies pay them to wear the shoes. In passing, regrettably running shoes have reached the stage where they are assisting the propulsion process. This must be clamped down on. Hard. More than 100 years ago high jumpers started wearing shoes with springs in and this was soon outlawed. Don't even talk about the 'blades' used by amputees, that took Oscar Pistorius, a club level athlete, to an Olympic final. |
Speakers are like running shoes (all shoes for that matter, as well as skis and bikes and books and many things). If there was such a thing as "the best running shoe," every Olympic athlete in the world would wear them. But there isn't, so they don't. The best shoe is the one that best fits your foot, that you feel most comfortable in, that allows you to run the fastest in your price range. Your best shoe is not my best shoe anymore than your feet are shaped like my feet. Or ears. You have to try them all on. Listen. Decide which sounds (fits) best for you. None of our opinions should have any bearing on your personal preference. |
I am a Vandy fan, as most here know. I haven't heard of Sonner, but their website looks impressive and speakers appear to be well constructed. My concern with Sonner is the 3.8 minimum impedance they list for the speaker. That is pretty low, so I would think you would need an amp with some 'muscle' to allow them to perform at their best. It looks like Adirondack Audio in Brooklyn sells them. I might just call for an audition. Bob |
Never heard Sonner, but as @twoleftears mentioned, Harbeth and Vandersteen are very different animals. Harbeth will generally sound more rich and midrange centric where Vandersteen will sound more detailed — some will say more “neutral” — with superior 3D soundstage capabilities. Structurally their designs are very different in that Vandersteen uses first-order crossovers and time-aligned drivers with fairly inert cabinets whereas Harbeth uses none of those things. In short, both are excellent speakers but if you love the strengths of one you’ll probably find the other less appealing. If none of this means much to you, your best bet is to get out and listen to as many different speaker types as you can (and there are many) with your music so you can drill down on what characteristics and designs are most appealing to you. Listening preferences are as individual as fingerprints, so you’re the only one who can identify what they are. So go have fun listening whenever you can do so safely. Hope this helps at least somewhat. |
Oranges vs. apples vs. bananas. These models aren't often grouped together in this way. They will serve well in different situations and for different tastes. But only you can decide. Much information is lacking in your post (rest of system, size of room, amp to drive, etc. etc.). It's Treo BTW, not Cleo. I heard Sonner standmount at CAF driven by small Accuphase integrated and was impressed. But not enough to pursue it. However, I think the sleeper brand here is QLN loudspeakers. |
