“I’m not throwing away my shot!” Third time may be a charm. Yes, true that much of Rap is strident and confrontational. Not mention the other negative elements. But in my examination of many of the suggestions of people’s favorite Rap, I have indeed, discovered many pieces that are brilliant and fascinating. There is no denying that the musical value is extreme and undeniable. A true art form developed over decades, there is much true innovation. My personal taste leans heavily toward traditional song structure and, as such, prefers Rap with strong melodic elements. However, I understand the passion and creativity behind Rap based on a more rhythmic basis. Also true that the ever present anger is difficult to take but understandable. It is sad that there is so much. But it is absolutely clear that “Hamilton” is a modern masterpiece of Rap. Brilliantly telling the story of this central figure in our founding. Engaging and gripping. The last two Rap threads were shut down because members were frequently criticized for their opinions. There is no question that Rap engenders much feeling. Can we agree to disagree?
Ghasley, I enjoyed your post, and thanks for the kind words.
It's pointless to try and explain to people who can not, or will not understand your explanation no matter how hard you try because they have all the answers even before the questions are asked.
I recall being at a hospital on a perfect day, sitting in an outdoors area where people ate lunch when they had long waits for procedures. The Sun was shining, and it was as if someone had set the thermostat at just the right temperature.
I sat at a table under a tree for shade, and a young lady came and sat at the same table. She was young enough to be my daughter, so thoughts that I might have had otherwise, did not occur.
The conversation began, as conversations with strangers always do, about the weather. I don't know how we got off into problems that exist in the city, but it was about the normal problems in the "inner city", which was ironic because we were a stones throw away from the old, very large mansions where the richest people in the city live.
She did most of the talking, and I did most of the listening. She seemed to want to impress me about how much she knew about what was going on. She went on and on about how all the problems in society were caused by "Liberals". I listened, without ever once countering her allegations of how much better off we would be if there were no Liberals; why spoil such a beautiful day.
I guess she was about 21, and it was quite apparent that all this conservative wisdom came from her parents. When we parted, she was smiling with the smug feeling of how she had impressed that old man with all of her wisdom.
When people get so brilliant at that age, it's hard to change them.
Oh my. This place is overrun with conspiracy nuts and white supremacists. Hydroxychloroquine was proven in multiple studies to be useless for covid and more than potentially harmful if used in the acute setting. Do some real research (not youtube and rightwing nutjob sites) and see for yourself. VA studies in particular.
And Millermoron, this country did more to abolish slavery than any other? That's an absolute hoot. We may have abolished slavery (at the cost of thousands of lives, but this country did nothing for decades to end a disgusting caste system which permanently suppressed a whole set of people because of the color of their skin. What country did Nazi Germany send representatives to for research on how to successfully suppress an entire group of people? Guess which? I don't even have to say it because you know already. You just don't care
The lack of depth in some of the political opinions expressed here is truly astounding. It would all be laughable were it not so pathetic. Self serving attempts at claiming a higher moral ground while simultaneously being blind to the hypocrisy and irony in much of what informs those opinions; some of which are stated as “facts”. Perfect example is the just stated and typical fall back position of the liberal that HE is the only one who cares about his fellow man and is willing to help him. All the while, clamoring for civility and respect while being incapable or unwilling to understand that the disagreement is in the methodology that should be used to help others. To do so (understand) would not support his narrative. Better to deem the other guy and his opposing point of view as uncaring, racist, even evil. What a bunch of self serving and insulting cr@p! Something that has become abundantly clear to me over recent years is that he who sees racism around every corner and is giddily eager to “call it out” is, more times than not, the most racist of all. I couldn’t agree more that politics should be kept out of these discussions and the reasons why should be abundantly clear.
Now, “Hamilton”. I have seen Hamilton. As pointed out above, a big yawn. I should point out that while I am not a fan of rap as a music/arts consumer, I think I get rap and I understand its relevance. As an inside, I don’t understand the resistance on the part of some to the idea that it is, more than anything, urban poetry with a strong rhythm component (rhythm is an important element in all poetry). This is not a bad thing at all. For me, as far as the rap that I have heard which includes many of the recommendations here so far and which I made of point of listening to, when there is a significant music component (in the traditional sense) it is mostly used as dressing. I suppose that an avid musical theater goer could make a case for Hamilton being a “masterpiece” of musical theatre. However, I have listened to enough rap to understand that to call Hamilton a rap masterpiece is akin to calling the music of Elvis Presley R&R masterpieces; and therein lies the irony. Like the music of Elvis Presley the rap in Hamilton is sanitized and made palatable for the typical Broadway show consumer. It lacks the edge and urgency of the rap that I have heard that has captured my attention. I will leave the determination of what can be called a rap masterpiece to others who are true fans of the genre (notice I do not say “music”). Btw, there is much revisionist history in the Hamilton’s book. First example that comes to mind is the number of times that Hamilton’s mother is referred to as a “whore”. There is not one iota of historical evidence that points to this being factual, but this does point to one of the ironies and, some would say, hypocrisies in the way that identity politics is used (abused) in the show. The show is very selective in its “wokeness”. The casting of black actors to represent the founding fathers may be considered clever in the context of a Broadway musical which highlights race issues, but there is no attention whatsoever paid to issues of gender equality. To call the show misogynistic would be an understatement
Clever, some might say groundbreaking Broadway musical. Groundbreaking in the way that Elvis was “groundbreaking”. Rap masterpiece? I don’t think so.
My intention was not to again raise the ugly head of politics. Rather, as a fan and audiophile interested in opening up new, interesting and musical content. And, through these threads, I have been exposed to much music that I had discounted. I am excited to become aware of truly interesting and frequently brilliant albums available on vinyl. Even a an early stage of listening, I look forward to hearing fascinating musical content that will sound amazing on my rig. As a conservatory trained musician, I have always been interested in the Avant-garde. I love the state of not knowing what will come next. Much Rap embodies this. Much is strident, angry and boring but much is also high Art. Hamilton was my first taste of this.
@glupson --. Labels notwithstanding, if some troll starts a flame war on a thread that I started, with posts that have absolutely nothing to do with the original intent of my message, then I have no qualms about calling out that kind of adolescent behavior and asking those posts to be removed. With MC and a few others it’s like I’m dealing with my younger students online.
artemus- Why is a black cast performing the life of Hamilton? Or is it a completely black cast? Is it their interpretation of Hamilton, the US or something else?
It is indeed something else. As I said in the beginning Hamilton is revisionist racist bufoonery. The people who write and watch this drivel are so ignorant of history it is almost unfathomable. What I mean is no matter how dimwitted you think they are, faster than you can turn around they come up with something even dumber!
Hamilton is part of the same ideology that produced the 1619 Project, another totally made up re-write of actual history.
The premise or foundational understanding of all of this is that the United States of America is not just another country that started off imperfect like all the others, but that racism and oppression are our whole reason for being. I know. Insane. But they really do believe this. A lot of the same people posting approval really do believe this. Most of them are simply too cowardly to come out and say it. But their actions speak volumes. Look what they go out of their way to promote- a play that stands American history on its head, making out the country that did more than any other to abolish slavery out as racist to the core.
The people who can watch Hamilton, let alone laud it as art, reprehensible does not even begin to cover it.
Notice they have nothing to come back with. That is why all you ever get from them is shut up. They attack you personally, because they have nothing intellectually to come up with. All they can do is keep insisting, keep bullying, hope you will just shut up. When that doesn’t work they will physically make you shut up, which is what they have done by removing every post containing actual lyrics. They cannot stand to see just how bankrupt their twisted views are, so they cover their eyes. Which is fine. Go live in ignorance. Live and let live.
But notice they will not just live and let live. Their disgusting topics have been removed every single time, and yet they keep coming back flaunting the fact they know they have no place here. Sad. So very, very sad.
@tablejockey a good friend of yours used to babysit Lin-Manuel Miranda? That's kind of cool. Did ever tell this forum about the time I made Norah Jones cry?
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Now I ask you, with all those choices, why would someone pick this thread to visit, if they did not want to discuss what is being discussed?
No, not everyone on this board. But this hobby is seriously graying and I would vouchsafe that most of those ( perhaps your company not included) would fall into that category. I mean, they can't even talk about a Broadway musical that's about his mainstream as you can get without showing their fear of change
For the longest, it was as if "Rap" was the forbidden genre, we never discussed it. There is no way you can discuss "Rap", without discussing the "sub culture" that brought it about.
"Sub Culture"; out side of the mainstream culture, one that was created by economic and sociological "realities" that result in a group of people who have to make their own rules in order to survive.
When employment opportunities are 0 and the baby is crying, they will do what they have to do. What would you do?
Choices are slim; sell dope, be a stickup man, or other illegal activities that will generate "money".
Gotta wonder about complaining of the "complete de-evolution of a once-great forum", while in the next breath complaining about the "incessant whine of Nazis" that post. Exaggerate much? Or are you that ignorant about who the Nazis really were? Maybe some self-reflection is in order. Other people say things you don’t like. Get over it. And if you want to see some good rap, Google Tom MacDonald.
Rap is entwined with complex social issues both real/BS much more than any other genre.
Best to leave it out of thread discussions. This is for audiophools like myself. Go to a Rap forum and discuss it with DJ Insignificant. If there isn’t one, start a one. Clearly there’s interest.
Debate/argue about audio gear and accessories, that’s what this forum is about.
This "Liberal" "Conservative" dichotomy was created by the racist who divide and conquer.
Divide & conquer is definitely taking place. But "racist" is the new term used for that very thing.
But a question please about Hamilton. I have not seen it but read the "cliff Notes’ perse’. Why is a black cast performing the life of Hamilton? Or is it a completely black cast? Is it their interpretation of Hamilton, the US or something else? Thanks
Gotta go to birthday party now for a lovely 7 yr old niece.
@ghasley I would much rather leave politics out of this board. But the can of worms has been opened and erroneous ideas abound.
You say revisionist history is good. That is nonsense. In a court of law, the witnesses to an event are most reliable, NOT the one who heard about is 4-5-6th hand in the neighborhood gossip. Its called revisionist because it contradicts the eyewitness accounts with an interpretation most often more suitable for their bias. In college I did Master’s papers base or original sources which are witnesses to the event and/or the 1st hand info. That is what true historians look at, Not gossip. But there again, I suppose it fits your bias. Too bad you don’t value truth.
I suspect your interpretation of what a liberal is, is what most people want, liberal or Conservative. The rub comes in how we accomplish these things. We disagree. But worse still is that we can no longer have a civil conversation because the liberal CANNOT defend his ideas on the merits of their argument. One psychiatrist wrote a book entitled "Liberalism is a Mental Disorder". After spending years debating them on various political forums I sense that is correct. However, I also doubt that many who claim liberalism as their political stance are actually liberal. And certainly not today where the Marxist faction has taken over the Democrat Party with Fake news as the propaganda arm.
You say there is no cancel culture all the while people voices are being silenced if they do not go along with the propaganda. Doctors are silenced for prescribing a KNOWN treatment for covid because the Liberals & Marxists don't want it used. Opinion writers like Glenn Greenwald et al are routinely dismissed from their platform because they have a different opinion. People leave Facebook because they have been silenced by "fact checkers from Communist China among others. Others here call for MC's removal because they disagree with his opinion. I could give more examples about voting irregularities, revisionist history, etc, but I highly doubt you will ever do any true research on your own to try to prove me wrong. I suspect your mind has been conditioned to believe what you want to believe. I’ve asked too many libs/Marxists to do their own research and not take my word for it. I got cancelled by all the ones I asked to do that. As I said previously, this usually leads to bloodshed sooner or later.
Glupson, I'm more into honest or dishonest; we've been ripped off by Republicans, Democrats, Liberals, Conservatives, Black, and White politicians of all kinds; would you feel better being ripped off by a "White Conservative"?
I was bored to tears, and had to feign excitement when I saw it years ago. Yawn.
A good friend used to babysit the creator.
Just my take. Never got onboard with anything associated with Rap/Hip Hop etc. Found it odd in the early 80's. Now that it's mainstream in culture, even more. Pass
Oddly enough, I have yet to see Hamilton! I feel like I'm one of the last people to say that even as it's available both on streaming and on stage. Maybe cuz I just never got into musicals in the first place. All that notwithstanding, though, I'll get around to see it eventually.
@artemus_5 sometimes history needs revising. The first version of history is always written by the powerful and the victorius in a given conflict. The first version is rarely much more accurate than the first revision. Its a free and unfettered press that usually helps humanity see the truth, even if they choose to look away. A couple of recent examples you mention like Kristallnacht and the Armenian genocide were perpetuated by the far right who despised liberal principles. Thankfully the truth came out because survivors escaped and a free press reported it. Other recent examples:the Gulf of Tonken and WMD.
I havent seen Hamilton although I understand it is a well done event. I also believe that an American has a right to boo or disapprove of Mike Pence or Bill Clinton. One way streets are not ideal are they.
no one is trying to virtue signal or cancel culture anyone. In fact, its those being called on the carpet for expressing an illogical or unkind opinion who cry foul. Its ok to express that you believe a certain $5,000 speaker is better than a $50,000 speaker. Its not ok to insist a racist or bigotry based statement isnt racist or bigoted. Feel and believe whatever you want but dont claim up is down and expect universal agreement.
We quit agreeing to disagree, 10-15 yrs ago. Now we have cancel culture like @flynnrd has proposed for MC. Guess where this came from? This is what happens when a group of people cannot win the debate on the merits of their ideas alone which I can guarantee applies to @flynnrd and others here who call for MC’s cancellation. .
Study some history, especially that of 1933-1942 Germany. Cancellation of people who’s ideas you do not agree morphs into cancelling (killing) the person &/or group sooner or later. Germany, Armenia, and countless genocides started in the same way. When agreeing to disagree disappears, bloodshed usually follows.
I cannot speak to "Hamilton" except from sources I trust. I believe they agree that it is revisionist history. I know that IMO, they did themselves no favors by calling out & belittling the VP when he was in the audience, rather than continuing the show.
@ngiordano your posts are unhelpful. @orpheus10 is a wonderful Audiogon friend to all and undeserving of your insults. That was uncalled for and unkind.
A liberal is someone who believes that everyone helping everyone is better than the alternative. A liberal can actually be fiscally conservative as many are. A liberal believes there are thresholds to which all humanity should be lifted economicaly because its actually better financially than the alternative not to mention kinder. Opportunity is not equally distributed and its up to all of us to do what we can to ensure a fair chance for all.
Alot of people are scared these days, dog whistles are abundant and the flow of information today travels so much faster than ever before. I used to believe that the pockets of bigotry and hatred and cruelty were the result of a lack of education or exposure to diverse peoples and thoughts. Unfortunately, I believe these things are fear based. A person from a certain area or race could rest well knowing there was another person relegated to a rung on the ladder lower than them. Then they discover and feel rage that people are mobile when given a fair chance. Through equal opportunity and hard work and access to education and ideas and knowledge, we can discover that we live in a world where its possible where a non white or non male can do as fine or even a better job in a profession as anyone else.
A liberal believes that even the non liberal deserves an equal chance at happiness although the inverse is rarely true. A liberal believes that everyone is free to worship (or not) in a way that they find comforting, a non liberal believes that everyone is free to worship in their way…or else!….that America and freedom of religion go hand in hand but that they are categorically seperate.
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