Grimm MU1 Streamer - Really "The Best"?

I’m also realizing through this process with the N20 and Innuos that I too lean slightly warm side. I guess I knew that before as my Diablo 300 and DAC are slightly warm leaning, but I didn’t know that I’d also prefer slight bit of warmth in my network server.

The N20’s AES and USB outputs sound utterly identical now. @lordmelton I tried changing the output to “Professional” as suggested and there was no change. Aurender’s documentation states that this setting is to address compatibility issues with some DAC’s only and has no effect on sound quality whatsoever, and they imply most should not need to touch this unless they have compatibility issues.

At this point I’m preferring the N20 over the Innuos for its more solid and musical presentation. Still need that smidge more high frequency transparency and detail to get me there. Still more burnin to go of course. Planning two weeks of burn-in of the AES circuits and cable (I think the rest of the unit must be fully burned in at this point), 2-3 weeks of critical listening and living with it, then I’ll sell either the Innuos stuff or the N20 to make way for the next comparison.

It is a bit odd and unexpected that there is absolutely no difference between AES and USB on the N20, despite the fact that the AES circuits and cable are still burning in. Given how different the N20’s circuits are between USB and AES, I would have expected SOME difference, regardless of whether better or worse! It makes me wonder if something else in my system is capping performance of the server across the board which causes both output types to sound the same. Can’t think of what though.  Even due to the fact that the AES cable is brand new, and that fact alone, should cause there to be differences but no!

@nyev 

Indeed, perhaps surprising while maybe not all that surprising.

I can't speak for the others who have commented but in the back of my mind, no matter how good we all think the Gryphon dac module may be, it will likely be the weak point in your very high quality chain. I'm not saying that to be critical in any way. In fact, you have to admit that the dac module plays at a very high level for a plugin type module but dacs in general have come a very long way in a few short years. In a logical world, the clocking of the N20 should be superior to the clocking of your dac module.

@ghasley, totally agree that maybe the DAC is holding things back. Unlike many I have no problem being objectively critical of my gear even if I have an affection for it. One thing though is that the Innuos unquestionably has more high frequency detail (to an astounding degree that I was not expecting, and possibly having too much detail for my system) feeding the Gryphon DAC module. So I don’t see that it could be the DAC module that is capping this part of the performance at least.

Update: Unless, I realized, Innuos has done something in their USB implementation that gets past the Gryphon DAC module’s limitations somehow. As I mentioned above Innuos did feed the Diablo DAC module with the Statement Next Gen at the Munich show last year.  If that turns out to be the case, maybe I need to seriously consider trialing the Innuos Statement. Maybe I can even consider putting the funds I was planning to spend on the AES cable towards the Statement Next Gen if I were to buy it. Nuno at Innuos did offer to send me one for evaluation.  I just don’t think I’d get the touch of warmth I am looking for, but I’m guessing it would more than compensate in other ways.

@nyev Once again, no offense intended, but I don't think of Audioquest Diamond and "touch of warmth" in the same thought string.

You are venturing where many have been and the left turn/right turn decision tree can be interesting. When I had my Innuos setup, my favorite usb cable was the Final Touch Audio Sinope. I was never fond of the Audioquest cables after trying and owning a few. I have a friend who swears by his Audioquest USB cables. What might sound broken to me might sound exceptional to another.

With my Grimm I ended up preferring the Shunyata Sigma V2 aes/ebu cable. I will be trialing a new Network Acoustics AES/ebu cable in the coming weeks because, well, just because LOL.I enjoy my setup as is but I like to see what small changes do to the sound. They arent always positive but they are always informative. Good luck.

I agree with @ghasley on AQ and let me add Nordost to the list of cables that are anything but warm. Maybe being in Canada, @nyev is limited on what he can get for home audition.

@ghasley certainly no offence taken and I agree the Diamond is not what to turn to for “a touch of warmth”. But here’s the thing: the N20 with my Gryphon gear, with the Diamond cables connecting them, gives me all the warmth I’m looking for. All I’m missing is the top end transparency, which is certainly not caused by the Diamond cables.

I’ve read many accounts that the Shunyata digital cables are superb. I’ve also read that they lean towards a very smooth, liquid, organic sound. My philosophy (rightly or wrongly) has been to seek such sonic characteristics from components and have the cabling inject as little as possible of their own character. Others have the opposite approach. I read one post from a guy who loved his Shunyata Omega USB so much that he was basing his choice of system components around this cable.

@nyev 

I read one post from a guy who loved his Shunyata Omega USB so much that he was basing his choice of system components around this cable.

Whomever posted that isnt someone with whom I would agree with about very much. His statement is silly.

All I’m missing is the top end transparency

You will get no tonal arguments from me about the N20 vs Innuos. The Innuos with a different USB cable would be a start. It would also be interesting to know the rest of your digital chain upstream from your streamers. As I'm already on record...I preferred the Innuos...until I tried some others and ended up preferring the Grimm MU1. There is no right or wrong answer, only your preferences.

I agree dac maybe limiting factor here. If dac not fully optimized usb and roughly equal to AES input, I'd expect streamer with optimized AES to have superior SQ. If this were my setup and comparison, my next comparison would be to another streamer with optimized AES, perhaps the deficiencies heard with Aurender AES may be alleviated.  Assuming usb in Gryphon not fully optimized, streamer with optimized usb in not allowing full usb potential to be heard. In general terms I suspect any dac with less than optimal usb will sound better with other inputs, streamer optimized for outputs other than usb will only increase the advantages of these other inputs.

@nyev 

I'd assume you are in for some gyrations in SQ over the next few weeks. At least it isn't worse than the USB at this point, but it very well could be worse at some point in the near future.

I'm living through this right now. I changed out the Network cable running from my fiber ONT to my router with a Supra 8+ cable on 1/28/2023 and it had 1,000s of hours on it, so fully burned in. It hadn't been used in a year though. But I thought it should easily be better than the $0.10 cable from ATT, regardless of that fact. However, it isn't even near as good. Loss of bass, not as lifelike, etc. In fact, less bass today than yesterday. Pretty frustrating, but I know I need to let it burn in for a solid week or more. If it never perks up, over say two weeks, I'll turn it around and listen to what happens.

So, I'd do the same if I were you; let the cable and the circuitry in the N20 fully burn in and settle. I know it is hard to wait, but hopefully you won't have to wait too long before it comes on song.

Thanks All for the excellent advice and thoughts. Yes, I’d be even more surprised if the sound of the N20 doesn’t change over the next two weeks. I’m being patient now!

@sns yes my next step down the road will be to try an alternate server with AES. Maybe the best next server to try would be the Grimm, which is known for its transparency and neutrality. The reason why it might be best as the next in line is that if the Grimm doesn’t get me that extra degree of transparency, along with the expected bump in performance over USB, then I guess at that point I could reasonably conclude that I need to lean towards the Innuos Statement (possibly with a different cable as @ghasley suggested), if I am committed to the Gryphon DAC module. I really hope my quest doesn’t evolve to looking into streaming DACs… my aversion to that approach is really due to budget - which needs to be higher to factor in the cost of the DAC while achieving a comparable quality, not to mention that I would feel then need to buy a premium interconnect, likely for higher cost than the AES cables I’ve been looking at.

I’m confident the Statement wouldn’t have the issue with overall image solidity, but while my Innuos gear is clearly class-leading at transparency and detail, what comes through just isn’t as stable, solidified, saturated and focused as on the Aurender as I mentioned above. I could be mistaken but I’d be surprised if a cable fixed this issue. Especially because the N20 with those same cables absolutely does not have this issue.

@ghasley my upstream components include the Innuos PhoenixNET also with AudioQuest Diamond Ethernet cables on either side of it. I’ve been experimenting with and without the PhoenixNET with the N20. Still not sure I like the combination as there seems to be an additive effect towards overall smoothness, whereas this really helps with the Innuos Zenith Mk3 + PhoenixUSB. Torus RM20 powering everything on a dedicated AC line, Audioquest Hurricane source cables powering everything except the Torus and Diablo300 which are Dragons.  My full system is listed on my profile.

@lalitk ​​@ghasley , just on the topic of my access to demo cables in Canada, you are right I probably don’t have access to test the variety of cables you have access to. I’ve tested the usual suspects though, for power cords and speaker cables: Audioquest, Shunyata, Nordost, Transparent, Cardas. I also used to have a pair of Clarus Crimson Biwires (fantastic cables) that I sold when I got the Nordost Valhalla 2 speaker cables. For the record, I didn’t find the Valhalla 2’s to be leaner or brighter than any of the other cables I tested, aside from Cardas which were too slow and warm in my system. The Nordost’s were however far more revealing and yes they have that crisp leading edge quality that Nordost are known for. Certainly no less bass than the others. The Valhalla 2 power cord and USB cable DID have noticeably less bass however. But the speaker cables don’t seem inhibited this way. I’ve read that Gryphon does poorly with extra high capacitance cables like Cardas and there are even reports of some Gryphon users blowing fuses when using Cardas with certain Gryphon amps.

As above, I’m seeking slight warmth in my components, and transparency and neutrality in my cables. My philosophy was to try not to use cables as tone controls for my gear, and to let my gear be the voice of my system. But maybe I need to be a bit more flexible in my philosophy, if I were to go the Innuos route. I did find a dealer who was offering a pretty great discount on a new Statement.

Back to the sound, I’ve noticed a class of music that Innuos clearly does better with than the N20 in my opinion - with the caveat that the AES cable and circuit is still presumably burning in. Music that has a sense of atmosphere driving it, music with air, space, and immersion. The N20 is simply not as immersive with its more dense and solid sound. In comparison these songs with Innuos have air and detail that leap out of my speakers to create an immersive space for the song to exist in. I used the word “expansive” earlier to describe this. Again, not saying the N20 isn’t good in this area but the Innuos is on another level on this particular dimension. I still think I prefer the N20 overall across all music because it has more focus, but I thought this was interesting. I found a dealer who offers excellent discounts on the Innuos Statement, so that could possibly unlock the top of the line Next Gen as an option. But only if I were to go straight to it and bypass buying the others so I don’t lose any cash buying and selling…. If I needed some more liquidity/organic smoothness, I could always resort to a nice Shunyata USB cable. Using “resort” only because it would be compromising my cable philosophy slightly.

It’s an avenue worth considering, because I’m fairly sure the only drawback I’ll find with the Statement Next-Gen is a slight lack of warmth, which is not the biggest deal and yes, can be addressed with cables. InnuOS certainly doesn’t seem performance-limited with my DAC when it comes to detail, air, and space. Wheras the N20 could possibly be limited, given the unexpected result of AES sounding absolutely identical to USB (there may be just the slightest bit of added high frequency sparkle with USB still over AES, not sure).

@nyev I agree, seems your Gryphon supplies desired level of resolution, transparency with Innuos so Gryphon not the problem. And you hear desired musicality with Aurender, again Gryphon is capable of delivering here for you. This leaves streamer, in your position I'd stretch for new gen Statement, you may be surprised in what the very top tier of the top tier may bring you. Sean Jacobs designs Innuos power supplies, that new PS is really world class, present Statement first gen are jumping on the new gen PS. I can only say change from HDPlex power supply in my custom build streamer to JCAT Optimo ATX was a HUGE improvement, ps is extremely impactful in streamer SQ.

@sns I can only say change from HDPlex power supply in my custom build streamer to JCAT Optimo ATX was a HUGE improvement, ps is extremely impactful in streamer SQ.

I’ll take it a step further and say that the quality of the power supply impacts every single audio component.

Charles

@sns , regarding the Statement Next-gen, I think I’ve come back down to earth a bit and realized I don’t want to go that route.  I asked myself the question of whether in 10 years, how will I likely feel about this very expensive component?  Would I be happy today with a top of the line server that came out in 2013?  The answers to these questions are obvious.  With a fair degree of certainty I can say that in 10 years I’ll be going through this process again.  The server is probably the component in our system that will age-out the soonest.  If I had unlimited disposable funds I’d consider this route but alas that is not the case!

I was also considering my priorities sonically last night.  What I realized is that while I like the “touch of warmth” in the server, that’s not the most important thing I’m missing from my current Innuos gear right now.  Everything with the Innuos, while ultra-detailed with dimensionality and space, is presented more delicately.  Snare drums hit lighter.  Everything hits lighter. Guitars are less tangible.  Vocals are more distant.  Everything is slightly less solid and present.  

Buying the N20 was so worth it if only for me to figure this stuff out and learn things about my Innuos gear that I wasn’t aware of - both it’s strengths and it’s flaws.

“ps is extremely impactful in streamer SQ”

This may be more of a factor in a streamer or server that runs on ROON or HQPlayer software as these applications requires much higher processing power.

@nyev 
Aurender has expertly designed their streamers on low-power high-efficiency Intel CPUs with enough headroom to run the machine while minimizing the amount of current drawn in order to keep the noise floor as low as possible.

The N20’s unique hybrid power supply delivers a pure DC current to flawlessly power the digital audio output board, while a separate linear power supply chain feeds clean power to the non-audio adjacent components of the machine.

Speaking of noise reduction. I was trying to figure out what the Aurender’s signature sound reminded me of. Then it hit me. It’s a lot like the effect I noticed when trialing an Audioquest Niagara 5000 in my system. Super black background, focused sound, and as some folks feel about conditioners, a very slightly truncated top end. Ultimately I didn’t go with the Niagara because it’s transformers buzzed like crazy, just as some others have reported. My Torus RM20 is an isolation transformer that deals with noise, as opposed to a conditioner that filters noise, so the RM20 doesn’t have quite the same sonic traits as a traditional conditioner.

In Stereophile’s K50 review, they published a lot of info directly from Mark Cole of Antipodes. One key thing that really stands out that Mark said is that his competitors implement noise reduction techniques that result in compromised bandwidth. Mark said that Antipodes instead focuses on maximizing bandwidth. Naturally I was wondering which competitors Mark was referring to. But I could see it being Aurender, as his comments would seem to fit with my experience - great noise reduction, gives that “conditioner” effect with black backgrounds and solid sound, but slightly less top end transparency (at least that is my experience with true filtering conditioners).

@lalitk 

Aurender has expertly designed their streamers on low-power high-efficiency Intel CPUs with enough headroom to run the machine while minimizing the amount of current drawn in order to keep the noise floor as low as possible

I can appreciate their rationale for choosing this lower power method. A viable alternative to the high processing power required for the Roon approach. Antipodes flagship Olandra music server has abandoned LPS altogether. They believe that high quality SMPS is superior to a high quality LPS. They put their money where their mouth is and are totally committed to this approach. A number of ways to skin a cat.

Charles

“A number of ways to skin a cat.”
@charles1dad

Exactly! It appears each manufacturer has a different approach and often times a unique solution to elevate the audio performance. IME, even bigger improvement comes from isolating AC power from the chassis bearing the sensitive audio circuitry and feeding it with a DC hybrid power plant with highest quality components. 

@nyev

Two thumbs up on isolation transformer, that what I use now which replaced a very highly revered and expensive Power Conditioner. Most power conditioner seems to have a sonic signature or color the sound :-)

@lalitk , yes, your experience with conditioners is consistent with mine. They change the tonal balance slightly as there is no way around it when filtering is involved. Others have advised me if this and even Nordost’s support team told me the same thing. And suggested Torus too, along with another consultant I was working with at the time. For many the tonal changes can be okay and it could possibly even help with those struggling with top end harshness or brightness. (Thankfully those days ended for me the moment I got my Gryphon). But for me, conditioners, and yes, the N20 too which IMO has a similar effect, gets you two steps forward and half a step back.  That doesn’t mean I don’t really enjoy this sonic effect.  The problem is I want to be able to have my cake and eat it too….

Agree with the benefits of using a balanced AC isolation transformer. I can see why the Torus RM 20 improved the sound quality. I have a BPT 3.5 Signature +, which is based around a high quality Plitron balanced AC isolation toroidal transformer. It is an excellent asset for my audio system. I’m a strong advocate for these devices in High End audio systems.

Charles

@nyev How much streamers change in future is hard to say, streamer innovations do come fast.

I demoed a variety of power conditioners year ago using Cable Co. lending library. All top of line variety, Shunyata, PS Audio, Audience Adept, none gave me what I was looking for, Audience was close. Like Charles went with BPT 3.5 Sig, 80lbs behemoth. I further modded with Oyaide R1 and PorterPort receptacles and Jantzen Superior Z capacitors. Balanced transformer proved out best, mods only made it better. Amps always straight into wall.

I'd sure like to see top of line streamer shoot out, well over $100k worth of streamers in direct competition would be awesome! All ports in streamer compared using a variety of top flight dacs with various optimized ports.

@sns 

Like  Charles went with BPT 3.5 Sig, 80lbs behemoth. I further modded with Oyaide R1 and PorterPort receptacles

Interesting you choose the Oyaide R1 receptacles. When Chris built mine he offered these as an upgrade option and I chose them. This was in 2008. Now 2023 and still no chance my system will be without it. Excellent audio products are really able to withstand the test of time.

Charles

Isolation transformers are are beastly. Mine weighs 88 pounds. One issue I’ve had is that I found that each outlet on it sounds slightly different. Center vocals are the most noticeable variance between receptacles, with the vocals becoming narrower/sharper and more forward or wider and more recessed. Both extremes don’t sound natural, and a few receptacles are just right. Recently went through experimentation to determine the best configuration of what gets plugged where. Before I realized this, I was a devout “plug your amp direct into the wall” disciple. But I realized that the outlet I had been using on the Torus when plugging the amp in was not the best. Found a better sounding receptacle and now have everything going through the Torus. One of the few weird “gremlins” I’ve experienced in my system.

So….. based on my results so far, which server should I look to next - the K50 or the MU1?

Tonally rich, dense, immersive, smooth, organic and immediate (K50) or neutral, precise, transparent and “incisive” (MU1)?

Please don’t think I’m turning my attention from the N20; I’m not for a few weeks yet! But starting to wonder which to line up next. Considering just buying new from a dealer who can offer considerable discounts, particularly on the K50. The challenge trying to get demos from US dealers is that I’m in Canada. Tricky dealing with import duty etc. And if buying from the US I’ll be charged an unknown amount of import duty which can be massive. You guys down south have more options!

Also, I’ve at least at this point written Innuos off, because I’m not about to buy the Statement Next Gen, and I’ve read many accounts that the Statement is really close to what I have now with my current Innuos setup. Meaning it’s doubtful it will address the few nits I’m trying to address. Like I said, my current thinking, which could change.

@nyev 

Try the K50 next. Even though I’m a Grimm MU1 owner, a very happy one I might add, I’m running the Grimm into an external dac. As long as the Gryphon inboard dac is your dac of choice, you should consider server/streamers which allow for aes/ebu or USB outputs. That way you can do as you’ve done with the N20 and compare multiple inputs into your dac to determine the optimal input match.

You are already down the rabbit hole and you appear to be reading alot of commentary, which can be fuel to the fire of over-analyzing without knowing if what you are reading is truly applicable to your circumstances. Additionally, you seem concerned about duties etc which, while I understand the thought, I dont understand the logic….duties are peanuts when evaluating whether or not you can arrive at a solution with which you can be happy for the long run. Another option for you could also be to keep your Zenith, sell the Phoenix and get your hands on the Pulsar. For very little money (net) you gain the multiple outputs(aes/spdif/usb). Ive been told by a reviewer friend that it is an amazing performer for the $$$ with a warm, enveloping presentation. How would that perform with your Gryphon dac? One way to find out is to listen and you are already familiar with the form factor and the ease of being able to try it. The Pulsar is likely what you are after but its usb only.

If you are indeed committed to your inboard Gryphon dac and the two box footprint(streamer/server and Diablo/dac), then your limiting factor will be the Gryphon dac. Embrace the reality rather than spend $20k US on a server/streamer only to achieve something “a little different”. 

I do like the idea of changing out dac, but it seems dac delivers things he likes, just not with one streamer.

The fact so many happy with both Innuos and Aurender servers under review here makes me want to think issue is elsewhere. I suppose the only thing we all can offer is the things we'd do if in same position. Since I'm diy and modifier, whenever I have these dilemmas I tune by changing out capacitors, resistors, internal wiring, cabling, etc. If the components are close to delivering, these things can offer a solution.

@charles1dad I wasn't aware Chris offered the R1. In any case the R1 is my max resolving outlet, the PorterPorts which were Albert Porter's modified, I think Hubbels, are for added warmth.

@nyev As mentioned previously, I'd go with K50 next, guess I'm biased as this was going to be my streamer of choice.

@ghasley 

Another option for you could also be to keep your Zenith, sell the Phoenix and get your hands on the Pulsar. For very little money (net) you gain the multiple outputs(aes/spdif/usb). Ive been told by a reviewer friend that it is an amazing performer for the $$$ with a warm, enveloping presentation. 

I thought that the “Pulsar “ was not finalized and still a work in progress. I know that the Pulse Mini and the Pulse network players are now available,

Charles

@charles1dad indeed, the Pulsar is a 2023-Q2 introduction. I brought it up only in the context that @nyev was seeking maximum performance.

The OP has chosen a path, one that I’m not so sure many would embark upon, but it’s his path. I joke about it with a dealer friend quite often. He keeps describing what I might (or might not) get by moving to the next level of amplification for my setup and I kindof think I’m where I need to be given the absolute realities of a domestic environment. Many of us are willing to chase the last bit of performance but I also recognize that I am certainly capable of chasing something beyond what could be considered reasonable. Based on this thread, the OP may be getting close to “beyond reasonable”. In fact, the Zenith by itself is likely not a bad match with the Gryphon dac board. Anything beyond that could be viewed by many as an imbalance of committed resources. I’d rather spend $10k on a server/streamer and $10k on a complimentary dac than a heavy spend on the server/stremer to feed the Gryphon dac board but that’s me. The OP set a goal and I hope he finds happiness. 

I do find it puzzling that the OP and his communicated impressions of the Innuos setup vs the N20 setup. I dont recall the OP’s speakers or whether he has an optimized room but the sound he describes from those two setups is inconsistent with my experience…his ears, his room, his goals right?

I too was told by Innuos that the Pulsar was not finalized due to parts shortages. In late December Nuno Vitorino said that there was no launch date and that it would be a long time in the future. I wonder if they had to redesign the unit around more available parts like Antipodes did. @ghasley , maybe your reviewer friend had a pre-production sample? Also, unlike past Innuos devices the Pulsar does have have a AES output. Yes, I agree it is a very interesting product! But would require me to keep my Zenith as you said, if I wanted to keep server capabilities and I do.

Also @ghasley , again you guys in the US are lucky with lower taxes and duties - FAR lower - than us Canadians. Depending on the item we can be charged 25% of the value of the item when it shows up at the door! And you’ll never know exactly how much it will be when it shows up. This is the reason many dealers won’t ship demos to Canada.

It’s true I can fall into an over analysis pattern when going down an audiophile rabbit hole. It’s happened with cabling. In some cases it can be stressful because I’m not entirely sure I trust myself with the extremely subtle differences I’m hearing. But so far in this case that’s not happened, and it most certainly isn’t stressful! It’s been eye-opening in the best possible way. The reason why: the differences between my N20 and Innuos gear are blatantly obvious! Two totally unique presentations. It’s when I’m in a situation where I’m splitting hairs that things can get dicey, and that’s not needed in this journey - so far at least!

After 2.5 days of run-time on AES, so far there is STILL absolutely zero difference between AES and USB that I can hear. Speaking of reading up in advance, I was looking forward to some benefits here hopefully, but nope. Everything still sounds very good though!

I was thinking last night that I’d enjoy the N20 if it was my only choice and I had to keep it forever. I’d also be consistently be aware of the missing top end transparency and air, but despite that it simply connects with music better than the Innuos for me. For the record - I hadn’t read any of these traits in advance of noticing! :). And yes, I’ve absolutely read up extensively on the MU1 and the K50. When researching I tend to discount one-off comments, but when you hear a small army saying the same things, I do pay attention then. Knowing that I still could be the odd one out due to my system or tastes!

@nyev 

Also, unlike past Innuos devices the Pulsar does have have a AES output.

My friend has the Pulse in house, which does have the multiple flavors of digital outputs. The Pulsar will be USB only.

Have you considered bringing in a different dac? I’m not suggesting you consider buying a different dac (although I would LOL), what I am suggesting is you bring in a different dac to confirm the streamer/server differences (or lack therof) are a function of the server/streamers rather than your dac board. If it were me, I would bring in an exceptional dac with an inboard streamer that is readily available in Canada. For instance, a DCS Bartok/Lina or even a Meitner MA3…both should be easy to get on demo in Canada. You would learn a couple of different things. You could see how the other dac sounds direct connect to the server/streamers. Additionally, you could see how it sounds using its inboard streamer. Lastly you could determine the real world delta between your inboard dac and a purpose built dac.

@ghasley 

My friend has the Pulse in house, which does have the multiple flavors of digital outputs. The Pulsar will be USB only.

Those very favorable comments from the reviewer/ friend were about the Pulse? That is very encouraging. to know. Also wise of Innuos to offer it with connection options as well.

Charles

@charles1dad 

@nyev 

Those very favorable comments from the reviewer/ friend were about the Pulse?

My apologies for mistyping earlier, I meant to type that my friend has the Pulse.

@ghasley you are right, the Pulsar is stated as being USB only!  I am fairly sure that before the delay of the Pulsar, the specifications for it were posted on the Innuos site along with the specs of the other two Pulse products.  And, I could have sworn that the Pulsar used to list AES as an output in its specifications section that no longer exists.  Not saying I’m certain about this, but if I’m right it would signal that a redesign of the Pulsar is in fact underway to deal with parts availability issues (that Innuos directly told me they were having with respect to the Pulsar).

@ghasley I hate the fact that I agree with your advice to try some well known and available DACS. In fact the Gryphon DAC module is the only premium DAC I’ve tried in my system, ever. So yes, there is no doubt it would be eye opening. On the other hand, @sns raised a great point - my current DAC has proven it can do everything I want - just not in the same server of the two I have experience with. Although it’s possible a different DAC would rectify this with one server or the other, or both.

Why do I hate this advice?

1. It requires another box if I enjoy the benefits and go this route
2. I don’t get to reduce my rat’s nest of cabling
3. Cost. I’d need to buy an expensive interconnect as well as an AES cable, probably. My assumption is I’d want to spend twice the amount of the AES cables I’ve been looking at (Jorma, Sablon, Audioquest Diamond) on analog interconnects to do justice to the system. I don’t have any experience with premium analog interconnects - do I have this right?

I know audiophiles joke about not exposing themselves to superior gear they can’t afford, as they will justify a way to afford it when they hear it. I’m afraid it might not be a joke in my case, but a legitimate concern lol!

I also feel like my current quest might truly turn into a true rabbit hole if I intro a new DAC. I’m not shutting down the concept of maybe pivoting in that direction. But my current thinking was to compartmentalize my quest to server testing only and finding the best that works with my current DAC. And maybe in the future looking into DACs. I understand that this does limit what I can learn from testing the servers though, with the DAC pairing being an essential element. Hmmm…

The dCS Lina & Bartok can be one box units if you use Mosaic as your controlling App. 

@nyev pretend for a moment that we have been friends for many years. Now, pretend that I just hit you squarely on your jaw to try to knock some sense into you! You are already fretting about interconnects? You have a six dollar ribbon cable or a four dollar board slot with traces presently connecting your Gryphon dac module... so relax for a moment and take a deep breath.

Also, free advice...I've heard interconnects make both a positive and negative difference. Its a thing. BUT...I utilize nice but sensibly priced (in my opinion) interconnects but its a bigger deal since I use single ended/rca. With that disclaimer, you could pick up a pair of nice XLR interconnects for peanuts ~$500 and you wouldnt be able to hear much if any difference between them and $5,000/pr interconnects as long as the dac adheres to the balanced XLR standard, you will be fine. Your Gryphon has balanced inputs so you are good to go. Thats what the XLR standard was designed for...to virtually eliminate variations in cables.

Get a good dac in your system. You need to know if the streamers are the limiting factor right now or if its your dac board. This exercise will easily demonstrate which. If you acquire a great dac then you will also experience a small epiphany.

Regarding your "cable rat's nest", it doesnt have to be that way. You do however have to step back and admit that the self-inflicted audiophle neurosis that is so prevalent these days is likely overkill. What cables do you have that are causing you heartburn?

(A) Server/streamer: 1 power cable, 1 ethernet cable, one digital cable to the dac

(B) Dac: 1 power cable, 1 pair interconnects

(C) Amp: 1 power cable, 1 pair speaker cables

Don't get FOMO on interconnects (or any other cable for that matter). In most cases, and I'm a committed cable believer to a large degree, people lose their rational minds. Cables make a difference but that's the final thing you tweak, not a paralyzing decision up front. and my final comment....the fact that you've heard no other dacs besides whats inside your Diablo is all the more reason to to bring in a high quality dac for comparison. You simply dont know what you dont know. If, after listening to a quality external dac and still find your Gryphon dac preferable...then you will have removed a variable.

Above all else, stop reading reviews....they have you amped up for all the wrong reasons...we have all been guilty of the same behavior so the sooner you relax and trust your ears the better. In fact, my favorite interconnects to my ears in my system are NOT the top tier of the manufacturers lineup. 

@ghasley , thanks and all good points. My incorrect hunches on interconnects was certainly not solidified since I have zero experience with standalone DAC’s and related interconnects, which is why I put out the hunch to be shot down :)

I get your point on reading accounts of others, but I disagree as this approach has in the past led me to products I would not have otherwise considered - like my Diablo. Never would have considered it without first getting a general idea of the voice of this amp. And my sentiments after living with it for years would reflect the consensus from others who have heard it. All generalizations of course, there is a level of understanding that goes beyond when you’ve heard it yourself.

My reading of others opinions (mostly forum posts) led me to look to the three particular servers I am considering in this thread - I would not have been turned on to them for consideration without this research. After I started this thread, I’ve maybe once or twice been back to reading accounts of others; the research is done :)

Anyways, my personal view is that you can make generalizations towards how a particular piece is voiced, despite the multitude of variables, with the caveat that this is merely a starting point to set you on the right direction, as there is so much more to unpack beyond these generalizations. Just my opinion and as I said, I never would have come across Gryphon without this process! I was NOT having luck home demoing separates at the time, I hated them all (yes, I was limited in what I could test). When I tried the Diablo in my system the first time it was a total revelation!

I know others don’t share this view, but hey, this process has worked for me in the past.

I am relieved to know I wouldn’t have to spend an arm and a leg on interconnects for a DAC….  Thanks again for the advice; I appreciate it!

@nyev

Its all good. Whatever gets us to the desired outcome. I hear you regarding research, reading, gathering info...but so many reviews are embellished or worse...they might be truthful and factual but without a clear understanding that context is everything. To make matters worse, the writing style and the motives of the writer sometimes combine to communicate an unintentionally false impression. The writer may be trying to drive home the point that product A is "warmer" than product B but they are afraid to alienate manufacturer B by adversely comparing the two products. Therefore, they attempt to write something objective when, in fact, neither product might align with our respective definition of "warm". Unless everything in our system is identical to the reviewers, then the outcome will be different. Unless our version of a term aligns perfectly with the person recording their findings, then we will innocently form an incorrect assumption.

I was merely giving you a hard time to drive home the point that we all get conditioned..."if I add a component then I have to buy Audioquest Diamond or Audio Note Sogon interconnects" or I won’t hear it "at its best". We go "there" without ever hearing the component and cable combo and worse, we listen for a few minutes and immediately wonder how we can improve it. I’ve done it...I have a closet full of various gear, cables and interconnects to prove it LOL. We buy a filter or gadget and immediately buy more to see if daisy chaining them is cumulative?

Keep it simple, have fun, know why we want it and repeat. For instance, I have some speaker cables I swear by in my system and recommended them to a friend and he hated them. My amp is a single ended triode vacuum tube amp which is optimized for 6/8 ohm loads, my speakers are 12 ohm, 96db and my cables are almost 30 ft in length. He has SS amplification and drives 8ohm, 90db speakers with 2.5 meter speaker cables. What could possibly go wrong? What could possibly explain the difference of opinion? Of course, the physical properties which optimize those cables for my system are inconsistent with what was required by his system. Interconnects? Single ended interconnects of a particular brand/model SHOULD sound different than the xlr version of the same wire but which is right? Most likely the balanced version because the standard removes most variables.

Best of luck.

Thanks @ghasley. I also don’t think I’m far off from what I’m looking for in SQ - the N20 proved that. It does everything I want, aside from a slight bit of what the the Innuos does. Just needs a hair more transparency and I’d be there. I don’t even need all the transparency of the Innuos. Is that unreasonable? Maybe! But maybe not….  

@ghasley I am also seriously considering your suggestion to try to get a demo of a well-respected standalone DAC in-house for a demo, as an interim step before sourcing a K50.  I’d only opt to try a DAC within budget, to be fair to the dealer, to enable the path of potentially purchasing it.  

The Bartok is a combined streamer/DAC.  I guess it would be fairly easily within budget even if I had to firesale my servers today (not that I’m going to!).  But do you suggest I try to stick with “pure” standalone DACs?  There is a DCS dealer in an adjacent city that I might be able to get a demo Bartok from…

I think I am going to stick to the plan and acquire a K50. I have an opportunity to acquire one for a deal.

BUT I am also going to follow @ghasley’s advice as well; will get a demo DAC in house AFTER the K50 is good and burnt in. Steps:

1. Acquire a K50 and start burning in while continuing to live with and focus on the N20
2. Acquire a demo of a respected DAC like a Bartok/Lina/Meitner (go Canada…)
3. Spend time with all of the variables possibly even a year
4. Wait for the impending recession to end (who knows how long, but hopefully not long)
5. Sell what I don’t need anymore and possibly buy a DAC, if I feel like it. I have no idea why, but I truly enjoy selling my old gear to people who are very excited to receive it. It makes me happy. I even got carried away and sold my beloved Clarus Crimson Biwire cables just because I wanted to sell them to an eager buyer - and regretted it. The manager at the post office knows me now, and always asks about what audio component I’ve sold this time….

This approach just gives me a bit wider experience, with three premium servers instead of two, to trial with two DACs. Could still fit the MU1 in this mix but it may not be necessary depending on how things go - I’ll have a whole lot of great stuff to trial in different configurations, that I can relax and take my time with. At that point I’ll have a very informed take on the three great servers, used with multiple DACs, and with both USB and AES. Sounds like a plan to me.

The fact is, the parameters I’m working with, shipping and duty wise, demo-access wise, and where I live plays a huge part in how I proceed with something like this.  For someone in the US, I am guessing you have far more flexibility with a plethora of dealers and US-based distributors, for almost any audio component you might want to try.  This journey may be unusual, but it’s going to be fun, informative, and relaxed. Discovering the very blatantly obvious sonic traits of the N20 vs the Innuos has already been informative. Best of all, the net expenditure will not be too crazy after all is said and done.

I’m embarrassed I didn’t think of trying this earlier with the N20 but I totally forgot to try changing my Gryphon DAC module’s filter from the default slow setting to fast. With the Innuos setup, a long time ago I concluded that “fast” produced an overly sharp and thin sound, and just changed back to slow and left it alone since. But with the N20, the effect is really pleasing. Given the overall rich tonal density I’ve been getting with the N20, with the DAC set to “Fast”, the top end is now more naturally crisp, but not sharp like it was with this setting on the Innuos. Vocals are also freed up a bit, are a touch less veiled, and are just a touch more 3D. It’s REALLY quite nice now. Still nowhere near the level of high frequency detail and transparency as the Innuos, but I find so far, I’m not as constantly aware of missing upper detail with the N20 as much as before. This is good! Very enjoyable sound now.

I thought maybe now I’d hear a difference between AES and USB, but nope! Maybe something is capping the AES performance, or my DAC’s USB and clock implementation is so good it makes no difference. I know, extremely unlikely…  I thought I’d hear a difference by now, at the very least simply from the brand new cable burning in vs the well-used equivalent Diamond USB cable.

I read once that changing from slow to fast filters, you gain something (higher upper frequency response) but you also lose something (less stable frequency response due to the more aggressive response). Not sure I have that right. Anyways if I lost anything, I haven’t noticed yet, and I gained more with “Fast” engaged.

Grimm Audio MU1 owner here, and truly like how it fits sonically in my system. Came from Lumin streamers and sigma dacs. Decided to separate things out a bit and having a great time with the journey…Buy what fits your requirements and whatever sounds good to you.

Bluesound Node 2i with an outboard DAC like the Pontus 2. its the DAC that counts.

@nyev 

Sounds like you are having fun!

You've mentioned dCS and just thought I'd mention, if you are not already aware, the Bartok will be upgraded to APEX in March, so it'll have the same upgrade, in name at least, as the Rossini and the Vivaldi got a year ago. Hoping that'll make it a much better proposition. My experience with the Mosiac streamer is that it can do a lot of what Conductor can do, but it isn't as sophisticated - keep in mind that I just used if for a few hours because I might consider doing a home demo of the Bartok later this year. In the end, I have an N10, so if I don't like the Mosaic streamer, I could just use the N10.

Very interesting to read about you switching the Gryphon module to "fast". Hoping that works out for you.

Thanks @pokey77 . Yes down the road I’ll be testing a DAC, as @ghasley has convinced me. Good to know about the Bartok upgrade! We’ll see about that route when the time comes. But it might be too costly for me - unless I use it as a one-box solution and sell all my servers. I might consider dialing it back and trying a more basic but good DAC, like the Holo May.  Not sure which approach would be best, but I did set out on this path with a vision of a one-box solution.  The Holo May, by the way, costs quite a bit less than my Gryphon DAC module. I know that NOS DAC sounds aren’t for everyone, but I’m curious.

With the minor revelation of switching to the Fast filter, so far, I can say that the N20 with my system gives me all I need to be happy. Do I want a bit more? Yes. But if everything else I try fails, I can fall back to the N20 and be perfectly happy with this setup. Really enjoying it now, despite the few things I still am missing from the Innuos. The Innuos has more HiFi magic, but the N20 has a bigger more solid center stage, and this just makes the experience more about the music. If my focus was to have a system to impress HiFi friends with flashy spatial imaging, great immersion, detail and air, the Innuos would be the ticket. The N20 might be duller in my system from that perspective. There are “fine detail” elements of some songs that are really highlighted on the Innuos, but on the N20 you need to pay attention to notice them. But “HiFi” was never the reason I got into this…

Also - it’s too early to say for sure, but I MAY finally be starting to hear a slight benefit of the AES interface over USB! There could be the slightest bit less flatness and more dimensionality to drums and bass - like they are a bit more fully formed. Or I may be imagining it - it’s hard to say at this point….

@nyev

If you do decide to go HoloAudio you should just go all out for the May KTE. Still only $5,600 and has a ton of good write ups and YT videos. It is two chassis and about 40 lbs. Looks to be quite the value product. BTW, I’ve never heard it before, just watched a video and read on Agon about it.

@pokey77 , yep, would go for the KTE if I went that direction.

Does look to be a value product.  Thanks to being made in China.  Like the MU1 too.  Could make some ballon jokes here but don’t want to veer in that direction!

Occurred to me the MU1 could possibly be a truly great match for the Holo, feeding it it’s upsampled signal….