Yes, Koukonen. Folks who own the CD seem to be very happy with this release and I expect good vinyl from Jorma. I missed Hot Tuna last year when they came around. Thanks for the tip on Buddy and Jr.! |
Dan
Is that Jorma K? Is it acoustic and on lp?
I saw Hot Tuna couple year ago in a small theater. Acoustic and electric. Awesome.
By the way, pick up buddy guy n junior wells Going back to acoustic on pure pleasure if you like the blues. Pretty amazing record |
Seriously, and just on a layman's observation, the application of damping is different in that the unipivot-based design dampens in close proximity of the pivot bearing and the TP damping is farther down the arm toward the cart. Obviously different applications of damping for different stimulus-sesses. (stimulii? :-) )
My personal view is the the damping on the TP was to satisfy those who would prefer a more "musical sound", as I called it back in the day. Everybody's right! Especially me.
|
Grasshopper! You have plucked the pebble from my palm! :-):-)
I agree. It's complicated and I'd rather just listen. I just picked up Jorma's River of Time but haven't had the chance to light up my system for more than a week. I'm shaking like a big dose of Starbucks. |
Well it is probably a lot more complicated than all of this!!!
I will stop asking questions and "enjoy the music" as Raul says.
Last Friday night's listening session was quite amazing!!!! |
Dan
What you are getting at is that the arm tube alone does not seem to dampen enough. Which I agree with and was really my point.
Clearly the phantom fluid level, triplanar fluid or not, and triplanar trough or not make differences.
I will say that while the phantom fluid does improve the balance it does not seem to obscure detail.
Question is how much of the detail in music is obscured by the mass of the arm? |
That's for colored reproduction systems :-) |
But what about the gold trim, Syntax? :-)
Should we also pull the Vector into the discussion about fluid damping?
As far as I know, the TP is the only one of these arms that can actually play very well with no damping fluid. But I wouldn't extend that as an offer as to why one design may be perceived as better than another. In the end, each is a sum of its parts. |
The answer is: because it is black :-) |
Can I answer with another question? Why do Graham arms have damping around the bearing? |
I wonder if any of you have given any more thought to the influence of the total weight of the tonearm with respect to dampening. I wonder how much of the dampening occurs in the headshell and arm tube versus the rest of the arm assembly.
I suppose that if the armtube is properly damped, then the rest of the arm mass or dampening proerties is not as critical. However, I would think that if the arm tube is not effectively damped then the mass and material of the remaining assembly plays a greater role.
I have heard the Fidelity Research/Ikeda arms (effective mass aside) are considered as effective as they are due to the sheer mass of the arm.
Also, I have heard from the Triplanar tips that removing the damping trough has sonic benefits. If the damping trough is so far away from the headshell and if the arm tube is effectively damped, why would this make a sonic difference?
Any thoughts? |
Jimjoyce25,
I have not tried the Continuum. Halcro has some experience with these.
I would like to try some other arms in the future with some other carts for experiment sake. But lately have been stingy with extra cash!
One thing i wonder about the graham is how much the sheer total mass of the arm contributes to the sound. Does a higher mass create some dampening or mechanical grounding effect? |
Jfrech, it is not just TP owners. I also own a Basis Vector. I do appreciate that part of the reason for all of those connectors is to provide flexibility. However, what if (for people like me) the owner is going to be using the same cartridge on the same table for many years? That person is not going to be going through iterations with cartridges and other things. Why not offer a more permanent, more simplified solution?
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that eliminating connectors would sound even better.
This is not a dig a Bob Graham. Bob is truly gifted and a really nice fellow who did me solid in the past so I have no interest in trying to put down him or his work. At the same time, I have absolutely no interest here in selling anything to anyone for personal or financial gain.
Dropping the tonearm cable connection down through the plinth or armboard also causes me trouble, but that is probably to the point of being a legacy issue now.
As to tweaking the TP. I think Doug Deacon has pretty much covered most everything in that great thread and others. There is definitely improvement over the stock form to be had by way of some resonance elimination. Remove the damping trough altogether, some remove the entire AS mechanism, etc.
!!!!!!! WARNING !!!!!!!!!!
I did not buy my TP at retail, it was a refurbished arm that I got a great deal on. You probably don't want to go down the path I have taken. Removing the arm rest has questionable benefit. I do not encourage doing this, and you had better find a way to provide this feature if you do remove it. It is probably much wiser to wedge something under the stock arm rest, or have someone hold it while you listen to determine if you can or cannot detect any improvement. |
Aoliviero and Syntax: Have you tried either of the Continuum arms? |
Dan, I agree, the P2 sould be better if it had a continuous run. I guess every design is a sum of strengths and weaknesses.
Syntax and i have tried each tonearm in the same system and pretty much share similar opinions of the sonic differences.
My goal was to offer some descriptions of the two by actual side by side comparisons in my system as opposed to speculation, extrapolation or second-hand opinions.
Maybe it is better to speculate, etc since it fosters debates with no clear winner or loser....
Oh well, in the end if you get a chance give both a listen and see what you like. You may even disagree with our read on these two.
Have fun!!
Andrew |
So, lots of tri-planar owners the talk about the tiny cartridge voltages needing a "unbroken path" or least broken via the tri planars integral cable.
Seems like this design point maybe taking a back seat to a other portions of a arms design? The Graham has the most breaks on the major arms (sme, tri, graham) |
Mike,
Talk to Dan_ed...he's already there with his TP (and a braver man than I).
-Richard |
Hello me mateies I've googeled looking for the Graham p2 tone arm and non found.
Even at Graham engineering web site is this p2 arm that new.
What's described on the refined sounds from pre 90s lps is how I would describe
the sound I'm getting from my TP included system. This is a true fact for me
the more I remove from the arm that's not needed the better the sound. I'm about ready to hear what removing the curing devise yields.
Mike |
Hi Dan, I agree but I see it from a different view:
I have an amp, I tweak it with a better power cord, good cables, isolation platform, better connectors etc. and I enjoy it. After a while I bring another amp to my system, stock, unmodified and it blows away the modded one.
And the modded one will go because better is better...
In my opinion I don't care how it was made, I compare it and when it is better than the other one which has a direct cable, I don't care about direct cabling.
Here and now counts. The Graham beats them ALL even with some connections. Genius has nothing to do with some connections, he did it right. And only that counts (for me).
I strongly believe in facts, not in theoretical discussions.
Why do I write that? I guess, I want to honor someone who really tries to move something for a fair price to the discriminated analog lover in this business where Average is going to become The Reference. Not for me, but this is my personal view. |
And the verbal floggings will continue until tonearm morale improves around here. :-)
Perhaps when one of you early adapters gets tired of your P2, or the economy bubbles again (ha-ha-ha!), more of us will get a chance at owning one. I would, however, be more interested if there was an option to not have the stem on the bottom and cut down on the number of connections. As good as it may well be, I can't help but feel continuous runs would sound even better. I'm more drawn to the Da Vinci arms at this point, but I haven't heard one of those either. |
Some think, that the Triplanar is still in the same class than the Phantom. Friends, totally wrong.
The Triplanar VII had a chance compared to the Graham 2.0 series, but mainly based on its simple Handling (and it was better than a Schroeder).
When the Phantom replaced the 2.0 a new chapter opened. Bob was able to improve his own - successful - Design, Tri-Mai is not able to do that.
Now with Phantom II it is from dynamic Range and from the true reproduction of colors (mainly on records pre 1990) a different Galaxy and works with much more cartridges at a superior level (the VII is great with Zyx for example but not with Lyra, Koetsu etc.).
Discussions about both Arms in one sentence should be stopped, they have nothing in common anymore.
Except the price, Phantom is way too cheap, when Triplanar is worth the money. |
Hey audiofeil, thats funny. You're a real joker:). Which audio shop do you represent?
By the way, for Triplanar owners, spend the 50 bucks for the micro VTF adjustment knob that is now standard if you havent already. This can simplify setting VTF.
The reason I hardly ever tightened the back weight is that the vtf would change slightly after tightening. This required a few times to get vtf exactly where you want it.
With the micro adjust,you can tighten down the back weight and then make any minor adjustments using the nicro adjust nut/screw to be where you need to. Nice feature added to the u2 and easilly retrofittable. |
Nothing drifty here.
Excepting the proprietor.
Dealer disclaimer. |
Hey Doug, Dan and Raul
Yes it has been a long time. I hope all is well with you. You're right I have mostly been happy listening and work has been real busy plus just got done with a book! I have been reading the gon and its good to see some new faces and die-hards.i cant remember the last time I listened to my cd player! I plan to participate more.
Yeah, the vtf issue is probably not fair because it's probably due to me not tightening the hex on the back weight. My guess is the tygon tubing expands and contracts slightly due to small temp shifts and changes the vtf ever so slightly. I can hear the difference between 1.85 and 1.78!
Anyway, the triplanar is an excellent arm and i am not trying to debunk it. As Raul mentions, as well as many others, the Orpheus may just be a better match in the phantom. I figured this could be a tricky post! I have no stake in the matter and just tried to describe it the way I heard it. I'm still keeping the Triplanar and will look for a good match possibly with a mono cart to try that domain. I cant bring myself to let it go. It was my first arm and a part of my love affair with vinyl.
Regarding phono cable im using the silver breeze.
Let me know if any of you are passing through Atlanta. You're welcome to come by. May be a little too warm for a single malt but perfect for a mint julip!
Cheers
Andrew
|
I too have never experienced a 'drift' in VTF. I have 3 arms and they all behave the same way. In fact that has always been one of the nice things that the Triplanar has always been about- set it and forget it.
The Phantom seemed a huge improvement over the 2.2- its good to see that Bob has made further improvement; IME the original Phantom was a good close second to the Triplanar so I'm interested to see what the P-II does. |
Dear Aoliviero: As good and different as both tonearms are exist some " tiny " subjects with influence in what you heard and enjoy: same cartridge but different behavior ( quality cartridge performance ) due that the cartridge likes " more " one tonearm than the other ( better overall match. ), different tonearm internal wiring, the quality performance of the tonearm/cartridge that you like it more is the one that meet in a better way ( better trade-offs for your ears. ) your music sound reproduction priorities.
Anyway, good to know that you are enjoying your audio set up.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul |
Hi Andrew,
Thanks for the report. Glad you're still with us. :-) I have heard from a few guys I share common audio goals with that the P2 is really good. Hopefully, the opportunity to hear one myself will crop up before too long.
I'll have to look up that post about drifting VTF to get the context. Can't say that I understand what you mean at this point. |
Andrew,
Long time no hear. Guess you've been enjoying too much music to waste time posting about it. :-)
Interesting report. You certainly makes it worth thinking about trying a P2. I'll take exception to the statement that VTF drifts with the TriPlanar. It never drifts on mine - ever - and I've never heard about anyone else's drifiting either. No doubting you, I remember you posted about this before. Must be a faulty hex wrench or something!
Anyway, thanks for taking the lead and being brave enough to post honest impressions. What phono cable are you using BTW?
|
Hello folks,
I have used the Graham Phantom-2 now for about 6 months. I was using the triplanat mk7 u2 previously for about 2 years. My experiences tend to mirror some of the posts here.
The Tp-7 is an excellent arm and does everything pretty well. It is smooth, musical, natural, dynamic, detailed and just great to listen to. I really did not think I was missing anything and felt I could not do much better while listening to it for the last two years.
Then on a suggestion I tried the Phantom-2. I actually had the P-2 in the box for 2 months before trying it. That is how much i was happy with the TP-7.well you probably know where this is heading.
Finally got around to installing the P-2. This arm feels like a brick in your hand vs the TP which feels like a feather. The P2 is a very heavy, solid, well constructed arm.
Both arms are easy to install and set vta, vtf and azimuth. However, one gripe with the TP is that vtf tends to drift. Not so with the P2.
In my setup, I was amazed at how much better the P2 is. There is a whole other level of resolution, transparency, micro and macro dynamics. This produces a more natural, palapable, tonally correct and dynamically live experience. Very well defined and holographic soundstage. Listening sessions have become a "spiritual and emotional" experience with the P2. Not subtle!
It may seem to most people that the TP isn't doing anything wrong until compared to better arms. In other words it's sins are those of omission. In my set up the TP seems to be missing the low level detail and does not convey the micro-dynamics and soundstaging in the pin point easy to hear way the P2 does.
Someone has said that you dont miss what you have never heard. But after hearing the P2, it is clear the TP misses a lot. However, what it does deliver cant be faulted.
One key caveat is that the P2 requires much more experimentation than the TP to get this level of performance.this has to do with the damping fluid. Its very easy to end up with misbalanced lackluster sound. the sweet spot is moderatly narrow. That said, the P2 still sounded better even when not in its optimum position.
Regarding damping fluid experimentation, Sirspeedy's post are right on! He really hit the nail on the head. Be prepared to overshoot and undershoot to get close then make tiny changes to get to the sweet spot. If you are prepared to have the patience to do this then this arm will yield incredible results.
I plan to keep the TP for now but might try the fidelity research arms next. Have fun!
Andrew |
Thanks Larryi. All too rare to hear such straight forward comparisons. Makes sense given my experience as well. Nice system BTW. I love the Viva stuff. |
Larry,as you probably know,I have an Orpheus.My dear friend Sid has the Titan-i which I have heard loads of times.I have to give it to you.....you have the sound comparisons "nailed"!That is exactly how I would describe those differences.Great job,as usual!! |
Piedpiper,
I own a Titan/Vector/Basis Debut combination feeding a Viva Fono phonostage (tube based). I like the "quickness" of the Titan and its wide open top end, and its very precise and unequivocal placement of instruments. I had the chance to listen to a friend's Orpheus in my system. While I did not experiment with loading of the Orpheus (extremely difficult with the Viva), this cartridge sounded GREAT. It is more upper midrange present and slightly more full-bodied than the Titan, but, it has a touch lesstop end openness and speed. Personally, I like both cartridges and would not find it easy to pick between them.
A good friend has two arms on a Basis 2800 -- the Vector and a Phantom, and has both a Titan and the Orpheus that I borrowed. For whatever reason, he slightly prefers the Vector for both cartridges, but I can't say why. He prefers the Orpheus to the Titan.
That same Orpheus spent time in yet another friend's system before that person also bought his own Orpheus. In that system, it was mounted on an SME 309. In at least one respect, namely tracking, the Orpheus performed better in the SME than in either the Phantom or Vector. This is based on the use of an old Shure test record that plays music at increasingly higher modulation level. We use this test to set antiskating, and it was clear that the Orpheus was handling higher levels with the SME (in real world listening, this would not matter as the Orpheus does not mistrack in any of the arms we used). |
Larryi,
what were your impressions of the Phantom/Vector/Titan/Orpheus and in what system? |
Thomas,
Thanks for sharing your observations. It appears that you personally favor the Phantom and the DaVinci. A friend has the Phantom and a Basis Vector, so I've heard both with a Lyra Titan and a Transfiguration Orpheus. I have never so much as seen the DaVinci, so your description has me interested.
|
I have to commend Thomas on the observation that Triplanar has done the homework on supplied cable. This arm may have no equal here. Mr. Mai may once again have the inside dope seeing the onslaught of nude (lighter) carts available and coming. Seems the entire Benz line will be nude. Now if I can just get him to build me a 12... Z. |
Thomas,
We hugely appreciate your sharing with us your experiences.
What about the Kuzma, how does it measure up to the others?
thanks |
Thank you Thomas.
Excellent information! |
The Triplanar VII is a excellent unit with its good cable and when using Cartridges below 10gr.
With heavier carts it simply looses information in the high frequency area, it is a bit lifeless and the "airy speed" is not there anymore (compared to other Arms, for example the Phantom, DaVinci or very heavy Arms).
I know, some use this Arm with Koetsus and are happy, but to be honest, what's not there, you can't hear....
It simply can't compare to the next in this case.
The Phantom is much better in this, based on its very heavy block, it can handle lots of different cartridges (I used a few from 4-14gr) at a superior level.
The Adjustments are outstanding and Bob Graham made with this Design a major step forward. Very innovative and no weak points (except possible mismatches with wire or colored turntables)
The DaVinci is remarkable, because it works with every cartridge I tried (from 4gr-14gr) on maximum level. Comparable to the Phantom, but with a little bit different sound.
To the sound
I like the Triplanar, it is good to listen to. With the right cartridge it goes out of way.
The Phantom Arm is very precise and the results can vary based on the connected Phono cable. The differences can be huge (I tried XLO Sign., Siltech, Purist, IC-70 Graham Phono, Kondo Phono cables and some others with it).
The Phantom has an excellent - complete - frequency range, linked with an absolutely amazing holographic Speed in the lower Frequencies. Very precise, super soundstage, the right height and body...
You get what you feed (can be negative too)
The DaVinci is the right one for the LISTENER, wide and deep soundstage, a relaxed and precise reproduction with all information that the cartridge can give.
A Sit-back-and-refuse-to-stand-up-Arm.
Record after Record ....
For me one of the great Arms out there. Heavy, good Arm material, top bearing ... Unfortunately very expensive, but compared to others, the Buyer won't be disappointed. Even after long time listening to it.
There is no final Arm out there, but the last two are a Ticket to sonic satisfaction.... |
Thomas,
I second Halcro's request for you to share your experiences and impressions
with these arms. |
Thomas,
You are the best placed among us to comment on the differences YOU hear between:-
The Phantom
The Triplanar
Davinci Grandezza
I'd be most interested in your views? |
Sir, You had me at anlytical. Z. |
Well, Miller is a bit obnoxious too,but I really like the guy!-:) |
Sir, I know you added extra letters to anal, to be nice. Thanks. Perceptive. Analytical plus funny = smartass- get it? HA! How do I come up with this stuff!! Z |
Z...Analytical,and funny!That's all. |
Sir, HUH? From what band? The comedian? Bill Maher, maybe. But I am a Republican. Plus, I write my own stuff. HA! I did it again! Onhwy is watching, so I have to be good. Jou got to splain it to me! (couldn't resist) Hey, I have something, give me a multisyllabic for DM's brand/flavor of comedy.
Down, Can I also mooch the 20/12 review? Please? It is too late now to go to Barnes & Noble, read it, then put it back on the rack.
Thomas, According to the comparo I just read, you are WAY non de rigeur. I would be willing, buddy, to help you out here; get a TT that accommodates a 12, and I send you a few bucks for the Basis. Just a peek at the altruist that is the ZIEMAN! LMK buddy, LMK. Z. |
BTW Thomas,I believe I have on "many occassions" mentioned my superlative listening experiences with an air bearing parallel tracking arm!I mentioned that it was my "opinion" that anyone not hearing a superb set-up utilizing one,was missing something special!..I still believe this,but to infer that these differences,between the "absolute best" arms(take the 2.2 and SME off that list,and I owned both of them)will be HUGE is not the "complete picture"!
Though I miss my listening exposure to the air bearing design at my friend's home,that system employing a different and not quite as good arm,is still quite superb.By "any" standard,and trust me,it's owner is absolutely as critical as any here!!If anyone is so posessed of an opinion that this business of "super-arm" differences(though they DO exist) is something to get overly concerned about(at "this" level),then I think you are listening to the hardware too much,and not focusing on the music,like you could.I think there comes a point where over-analysis takes away from musical pleasure!I too like to gaze at the coolness of my set-up.
My own perspective,though I seem to get overly analytical at times,is we still split hairs a "bit" too much.
In truthfulness,when I was home sick awhile ago,and posted that long winded post about why I felt the Phantom had a better chance of outperforming the Triplanar(I spent my money on both)due to lower potential bearing noise,I NEVER really felt one would outpoint the other in any really meaningful way,that could NOT be compensated for elsewhere in the system!I bought what I preferred,but could EASILY have gone the other way,with a smile on my face,if "circumstances were different"!
BTW,Z,why do I get the distinct impression you are a fan of Dennis Miller? -:)
Best. |
Hey Thomas,I think what mas "meant" was that at some point,"very high up the performance ladder",the differences are more about compatibility,and correct settings.The differences between the Kuzma,TRI,Phantom,Davinci,alone,should not make or break a good set-up,if done correctly.
-:) |
D, My bad. I was looking for a title reading 312S review. I mostly just look at the pictures anyway...
Thomas, I hope I had nothing to do with your whining. For some reason everybody was in a very special mood this year. I had the best time in many years, and if it's OK with you I would like to share with the guys not able to attend. If you are amazed when you learn something new, you should feel grateful. And maybe say "thank you". Looks like you have a pretty decent system there, nothing to "whine" about. You could do with a speaker upgrade, but couldn't we all? Perhaps it's a language thing , I'm not really sure I understand your post. Did you have a point you wanted to make? Z |
I am amazed from some "experiences" here, because some say - and think - that most of socalled Top Arms today are more or less close, sound more or less close, too and the differences depend on tweaks .... etc.
Well, I had (or have) the Tri VII, Phantom, Schroeder, SME V, Air Line, Graham 2.0/2.2 and some others here and compared them.
Their differences are not subtle, sometimes they are huge.
When some can not hear that, it is no problem, then they have probably speakers or electronics which is not able to do the task.
I had no problems to find out that some lack detail, or have problems to hold the Setting, or have problems with the bearing in combination with some cartridges.... and so on ....
Thank you about the information that all manufacturers are so nice and friendly. I whined after reading that.
The world is good :) |
Z
312S in part 2 with the brinkman, consonance & cartridge man linear tracking arm.
You can't just go to the summary dude!! |
