Downunder,I know you are an experienced 'phile,so I am going to give my personal opinion.If you actually believe one is "across the board better",with the criteria you give here,than I am simply at a loss for words.
Based on the latest improvements made to both(classic) arms I'd be happy with either one!So would you!!
Yes,the cartridge will determine which is the best choice,but I have to assume you already know this.
I am pretty convinced that a thread asking which particular cartridge would maxx out "your" particular system/music preferrences(a pretty good set-up,as I can see)would be far more meaningful.
I think you already know the scoop,but what the heck,let's see what comes up,on this thread.-:)
Best. |
Downunder,my response is not to dissuade you from any inquiry,which you are absolutely entitled to......Yet,the Phantom is NOT a different beast from earlier versions,on sonics!I have owned the Triplanar,and am extremely familiar with the Phantom.Even though my three year stint with the "Tri" was not perfect I'd be hard pressed to give one a thumbs up,over the other at "this point" in time,with these "latest" versions!
I just cannot believe one of these "newest" versions is more than a "tiny" bit better than the other,in specific areas,with the most popular,and highly regarded cartridges.C'mon...The cartridge is WAY more important,based on these two great arm designs!!Actually,as has been demonstrated to me,on countless occassions,the "best(early)LP pressings" are far more important than all this minute discourse!Not on absolutely every occassion(I know A.Salvatore loves a ton of re-issues,but he is wrong about a good majority of early pressing vs re-issue comparisons,for the most part...not always,but pretty darn often...Often enough,to make the search for the best early stuff worthy!Meaningful,if you love the best in LP replay!)It would be better to worry about "this",more than the differences between two such good arms!How come nobody seems to care much about this?
Just an opinion,or five,but I can't wait for the rational of those thinking one is actually superior,to the other.Be it arm,or pressing worthyness....Whew,feels kind of good,to be a bit like my old self!OK,the feeling went away-:)
BTW Downunder,sorry if I come across as a bit rude.I truly wish you the best,and have no doubt whatever arm you move to will be fabulous.Whichever one!!Go for the best deal,and spend the balance on the Australian Open tix!!Lucky guy!!!
Best! |
BTW,Downunder...as a good amount of my friends own the VPI TNT(latest,with heavy platter)why are you not interested in the new VPI 12.7 arm?Just curious.
Best |
OK I'll bite!....I do love the Phantom,with the experience of using one(my friend's/with my own on order)in conjunction with the Transfiguration Temper-v,and the Transfiguration Orpheus.It is SO good,that I finally gave up on my beloved(boy,I really liked it)Graham 2.2(which is a steal on the used market).
The only reason I decided to go for the Phantom was the amazing performance(way beyond the Temper-v,which seemed fabulous,to me)of the Orpheus.Yes,I have received personal E-mails from a dealer who sold both the Orpheus and the Air Tight PC-1,and he stated emphatically the Orpheus was superior.It was just hobby talk,with NO hype,or expectations.Just his opinion,but that resonated with me,so (if you can believe this,which is true....and a bit pathetic...unless one is a vinylista)when I vacationed in Vegas this past summer,I decided that all gambling monies would go to the Orpheus purchase,and was a "cheap bastard" at all gaming tables/slots.The crupiers hated me!!I think I spent a total of 60 bucks that week gambling(a scratch out lottery ticket is BIG TIME gambling to me,btw)but knew my Orpheus would come that much sooner!On the monies the The Mirage was "not" going to get-:)...Had a great time at the restaurants and shows,but the "easy loser monies" went to the big "O" fund!
So I came home(this "does" lead to something,about the Phantom,btw)and ordered the big "O"!Got it in two days.The importer,Bob Clarke is an amazingly fine person to deal with!I was actually shocked at his good naturedness,in holding the old pricing,and traded in my Temper-V!
Happily I mounted the "O" on my Graham 2.2.My friend now had the Phantom/Orpheus combo(which I set up),and I had the 2.2/Orpheus.We both have the same set-ups,except he has the Magico Mini,and I have an Avalon Ascent MK-II/Rel Stentor combo(believe it,or not,there is an amazing similarity here,from about thirty five hz on up).My room is larger,and is dedicated to two channel audio....OK....thought everything would stop there,as I have spent way more on new stuff(Exact Power EP-15a/Ultrapure,amp upgrades,new tubes,accessories,turntable updates,P/C changes,new circuit box etc,etc....I really wanted to be done with it,and get back to collecting new,interesting vinyl.My first love,which took a back seat for too long!
In went the "O",and yes I was happy(I thought).Then I realized the "O" was so good,I simply heard a different "tracing/tracking/noiselessness" at my friend's home,which I knew was the difference in the two arms.Sometimes you just know stuff from experience.If this was three years ago,I'd have been clueless about what I was hearing,but knew the Phantom "had" to be gotten.
OK...it was amazing in dynamics,tone color,detail,stage width and stage height(which literally jumped up the back wall).There was a "hugeness" to the sound,which was had with his older Kharma speakers too(the Phantom was in "the Kharma set-up as well").I NEEDED "that" aura,in my set-up,and knew how to get it!!
I played around,alot,with the Phantom(at my friend)and we played my reference discs aplenty.There is no doubt in my mind(as of now)that I really believe this arm is on par with the performance I remember the the Air Tangent got,in terms of "no noise artifacts" riding along with the music.THIS IS a BIG deal!!NOT the linear advantage of the Air Tangent,but the "absolutely no noise/resonance" which many pivoting arms seem to have,to some degree.
Now,sadly(I mean sadly,since I am reaching my patience/ limit in tweakery,and just want to spin some damn discs again)I knew I was not going to be happy until I got a Phantom(which my armboard is drilled for,as there is always a financial consideration in equip purchases).
I don't know if a gimbal bearing is as quiet,but am willing to give the benefit of the doubt to those in the know,who say these new "best" ones are super.I just know the Phantom is great!
My own audio pals group is laden with lovers of different arms,from various mfgrs,and I respect their choices.BUT I still go for what I like.So should you!
Intuition and good logic,with a decent set of ears seldom screws up!
Hope this helps.
Good luck(btw,Hewitt won't last long...field is too deep)
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Hey Downunder,forgot to mention I have a close friend with the Art series II!What a great pre!!!!!!I think it is amazing!!!!!!
Best of luck. |
Thomas has it pretty much nailed down,as far as I am concerned.
As far as my own opinion...you really have to look(hard)at the particular hobbyist/set-up person,or dealer with regards to "voicing"(getting the best)an arm/cartridge combo has.
Sorry,but knowing how sensitive some arms can be,"anything definitive" stated by a hobbyist/owner must be taken with a grain of salt!Myself included(and especially)!
Ex....if I don't know how an arm like the Graham 1.5/2.0/2.2 is set up(to the exactitude)no comments have any meaning,other than hobbyspeak.
Not to say I don't love to read this sort of critique,but too many variables are at play,and many folks are quite satisfied,way too soon(meaning some folks may not even go beyond a certain set-up point,once good sound is had).We each have no exact idea of just how critical each of us is. Of course there are those who seize a negative comment(even if wrong) and try to make a provocative post,just to see what comes out of it(I have no problem with that tactic,and it IS fun to see what gives).I've done that alot.
Knowing what I know,from extensive experience with all Graham arms,I cannot believe the Phantom is too warm,or weak in some detail area.Certainly,Graham arms are not boring for that matter!Yes,the earlier series had some dynamic issues,but they were greatly improved over time.
I also cannot possibly see where an arm like the Triplanar could be fatiguing,over ANY length of listening.THIS arm has been around,and refined for over thirty years.
Personally I DO think the "hobbyist/owner" is the weak link in the analog chain,from what I have experienced,with "myself" and other experienced guys.
We jump to conclusions way too soon,don't really max out much stuff(not just arms/cartridges),before annointing something as good or bad,and like to reinforce the findings of fellow friends and other hobbyist owners,who have equipment we like,or want.
I have seen experienced owners who had cartridge/arm set-ups way off the mark(myself included)and thought they had the "performance personality" down pat(easy to blame poor tubes,or something else on a sub optimal arm/cartridge issue)!Of course it is SO easy to blame something like non optimal cable matching,antiskate settings,vta,vtf,and azimuth...not to mention the very sensitive bearing fluid issue,in the Graham 2.0 and 2.2(I had both)that "literally" makes or breaks the performance here!!YES too much fotzing around is needed here,for maximizing the damping fluid.....but boring sounding....if you got it right?
I think some cartridges used are definitely NOT ideal,on some arms mentioned here,and this IS a major sticking point!Some of us don't even realize this,as we have come to like some particular cartridge family so much,the arm choice(as being absolutely optimal)is not taken to the max.
A heavy stone bodied Koetsu(I owned two)on a Graham 2.0 or 2.2? Yes,that would be "boring",AND a non optimal match,IMO.No amount of playing around with parameters can overcome sub optimal cartridge matching,to specific arms.
Also,as to specific dealers reinforcing the thought of a particular product as not being so hot( I had one,very recently,as I was considering the Phantom,tell me the the latest Vector was a piece of "garbage",which I don't believe for a minute)...well I don't think I have to go "there" at all!My advice....learn your set-up,on your own.Then when someone knocks something you own,you will truly know if the statement is accurate.
I have gone six months without realizing my azimuth was off,and kept playing around with damping fluid,and vtf/vta to get a satisfying sound.It was OK on some LP's ,but did not hold up in the long run.Yet I was too affixed to "thinking" I knew it all to well,to realize I was "clueless".
This could(just an assumption)be one particular reason why some make blanket statements about specific products!
If I,myself,have no experience with "your" particular set-up,NO amount of nice color pictures tells me anything about a particular product.Sorry if this seems rude,and I LOVE all the input,and PLEEEEASE keep it up!!It is the only way to make a decent "judgement" on some products(if unavailable)and is VERY helpful to all of us!
I just don't think it's the best idea to take an eyebrow raising comment,from a particular poster,as the gospel.
A fun read YES,YES,YES...but we should go with what makes the most sense to us.
One thing that DOES make the MOST sense to me(from experience with the Air Tangent,and Forsell arms)is the ABSOLUTE superiority of a really good "linear-air bearing" arm!!!.....If you have not heard a good system that employs one of the "elite" units around,you DEFINITEY have not heard what can be had with the "best" discs!That may seem like one "eyebrow raising" statement...but it will be an "eye opening" one to the uninitiated!!!
Best of luck. |
Btw,as a humorous afterthought...the maxi pump(what I called it)was housed in a closet,in one of three LP rooms(each chocked with amazing LP's).Not in the main audio room.It was on the floor,in between three pillows(used to damp it).Hysterical,in the best ha,ha sense.
When the unit's compressor kicked in,about every fifteen minutes or so(from memory),the whole house shook for a second or two....Talk about great bass!!-:)
I used to laugh watching Sid get down on all fours,in this little closet,to bleed off air,after long listening sessions.
An absolute classic,in both listening fun,and the actual audiophile himself(Sid)!!!
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Atmosphere,yes I cannot disagree with you,but the vast amount of my own experience with airline arms was at my friend Sid's home.He,and his close friend, had the Air Tangent set up with the original pump.Sounded about how you would describe it.Very good.Not great.Sid wanted more,so got in touch with his audio network. Then...one of them came up with the idea of getting a MAXI(in size) pump,which was sourced from a dentist(in Canada).It literally was the size of a motor boat motor!Sid got the OK(he was very tight with audiophile "A") to try to get one,and was lucky to source one from another dentist in Brooklyn.I know this is really laughable,btw.
Well the difference in bass,and stage dimensions(not to mention an ambient texture to die for) was huge.I heard it both ways,and this new version was used for a long time.I've heard it on dozens of occassions!
Since I knew his system very well,when the arm was removed,for a commonly used unipivot(not mentioning which one,but NOT a Graham),the performance took a nose dive!!
Some pals of ours kind of predicted this,but that's how it played out.Sadly.
The Air Tangent/Mega pump was responsible for all the Mercury,and RCA reviews in TAS!
Of course this is one of those posts which is included in the "why take my word for it" category.Which is how it should be!!....It's how I,and about a dozen guys heard it too,btw!.....A GREAT ARM!!!...and I don't believe I will ever hear such a fabulous audio component again.
I'll bet the Kuzma is in that company,but I cannot afford one.I'll have to settle for a Phantom,if it ever arrives!
Best. |
Sorry that the last two posts got switched around!
I may as well add some additional input(hey I have no vinyl replay,until my new arm comes,so I have some time to bore a good majority of you,and I'm home sick).
To re-emphasize about the "bass" issue on the "modded"(we'll refer to it that way,as it basically was SO different,this is appropriate) Air Tangent....NOBODY I have ever been familiar with(with the exception of Richard Foster) has a record collection even remotely close in quality,and desireability to that of Sid Marks(in the Classical and Jazz genre).For those loving the "smell" of old vinyl,and the history of where these LP's came from,it is HEAVEN on earth!!You enter his home,and you get a contact high!!We are literally talking "buy a BIG house value",in LP worth!Hence,when he wanted to demonstrate the "superior bass quality" of many LP's(he happens to be a bass "fanatic",btw,and maybe a bit too much, Imo)he could pull out particular discs that could throw a serious vinyl collector into withdrawal(think.. a woman,at Tiffanys,with alot of cash,who just won the lottery).I mean it is amazing how many GREAT LP's exist,that we will NEVER even see a picture of for it's cover art alone!!!...He's got em!!!BIG TIME!No wonder his column used to be called FROM THE RECORD VAULT!
SO the multitude of "amazing bass" discs that have been played for me,and some other local guys,seems almost incomprehensible when one factors in that I have been seriously collecting LP's for over thirty years,and whenever I go to Sid there is a plethora of "I gotta have that" discs to be heard!!BUT,guaranteed they won't be found!!!
Trust me(and I hope I'm not too boring in this "ode to Sid" piece)the quantity of organ,organ with chorus,orchestral,orchestral with organ....and chorus stuff.....even Glee Club stuff,recorded live---somewhere in Europe(if one can believe it,and I don't blame you if you don't)has caused me to leave his "Vinyl Vault" shaking my head in dis-belief!As to the "music" on tap,but since we are on the bass subject,the "reality" of THAT bass too!The pitch definition of really deep bass(done the Maxi/Air Tangent way) is something many have no clue exists.Especially with twelve bass drivers working "correctly"(another topic).
OK I'm getting somewhat carried away!!
He has mega modded four tower Infinity speakers(NOT "colored",as a well known blogger has incorrectly mentioned on his web-site,about these designs,btw)so the "bass" issue is irrelevant!!!
I had been invited to another home,of a well known reviewer,who had the LATEST darlings,in both speakers,and equipment(Forsell there,btw).This was ONE day before the new Air Tangent mega set-up at Sid.The guy was obviously an expert,and was a lovely host.I had a great time,and heard a very nice set-up,which the host thought was "SOTA" and could not really be bettered,at the time.A HUGE NYC loft/room,which was an amazing listening space.Cool art all around(thought I'd throw that in).
Next day(about twelve hrs later),went to hear the new Air Tangent/Maxi,in Sid's set-up.The speakers were about eighteen years old,btw(Sid could care less,as it "IS" all about performance,in HIS room).The rest of the stuff,other than old Krell bass amps,is very well heeled.
NO CONTEST!!!!!Totally exposed the hole in the previous set-up's mid bass,and I then realized that the night before,I was not hearing any low bass at all( on a really BIG speaker).Not a hint of pitch definition,as compared to what this new Maxi Air Tangent had in store for me,and the others,who were in total agreement/disbelief.This is the kind of audio stuff that is the most fune for me.Being SO happy for a good friend,who "has got it"!Nothing competitive.Just joy!!Some good NY cheese cake too.
Suddenly the "fine the night before" super system dropped three notches,in hindsight!The night before I had loved it...almost!
Sid is the kind of guy who absolutely could care less about the latest rave,or folks doing the "raving".He is ONLY concerned about how something sounds in HIS room,with HIS stuff.....AND his irreplaceable record collection!!!
BTW,the friendliest guy you could ever want to meet,and one of the most hospitable and good natured too.Imagine,with some house painting being done,last year,the guy grabs a load of "doubles",in Decca Wide bands,and just gives them to me,to "make space",so he claimed.."take them,take them,I have to make some more room".........One of the GREATS!!!!!!!!!!
Hope my long winded post had some relevence.Time for my Sudafed. |
Back on topic(for me),and hopefully with some "opinions" relating to a little "intuitive reasoning".....Also I want to warn you,I am home sick,with not much to do,so this is going to be a "long" post........I am NOT a mega "technical" school person,but am very much in the "practicality" school.Hands on,is a good way to garnish an educated "opinion"!!Admittedly there is always much to learn.
From some(not all) questions asked,from the originator's post..."more organic midrange/greater treble detail/plays music better"....here are some of my personal thoughts,which are arrived at from my own agenda,and way of looking at "what gives" in a product's design,and ultimate performance.
Firstly,make sure the arm fits your table of choice!!!(I once made this mistake).
Secondlyly(and most easily found out),make sure the cartridge of choice(whether it is an existing possession,or one you "want to get")mates well with the arm/s you are looking at.This info is usually found on website,or one can call the mfgr.Most current arms work well with alot of new cartridges,but some cartridges "need" the best mating for that... "absolute audiogon obsessive hobbyist approval" (that was in jest). Call it the Sudafed talking -:)
Some really fine cartridges,like the superb(I owned two)Koetsu Stone body designs work best with heavier arms!You are NOT going to "max out" a heavy Koetsu,or some others on an arm like a Graham 2.2.It may "work",but not at it's peak,and if you have a great cartridge(which is really what we "want" to "try" to hear,that is....the actual cartridge personality,"itself",with ALL OTHER EQUIPMENT just getting out of the way........this is how I view it)you won't get the absolute maximum performance from it!OK fidelity...but not the "best"!That is why some arms,like the Fidelity Research still are desired,by many for Koetsus.They work best with heavier cartridges.I remember loving my old MDC-800,here.Nobody posting here wants anything less than ideal performance,especially when we consider just how expensive some stuff can be!
Considering that the "best" arms are very well designed(especially those having been around for a while)lets give the benefit of the doubt, on the subjest of correct geometry to these designer works.Set up an arm correctly,and you are OK, on this subjest.Unless you ascribe to the school of parallel tangency(which is a darn good arguement)the vast majority of the "now" pivoting arms are fine....IMO!
Now,here is where I look CLOSELY at "what makes the most sense to me"(other than experience,which should be invaluable,and NOT overlooked....but sometimes you have to rely on a dealer to aid you with the decision,and hope he knows what is really the better choice,for you).........
.....Assuming all other parameters are met,which should be NO problem really,I like to look HARD at the subject of what particular arm design characteristics offer the best,and "most logical" means of negating/negotiating,or eliminating the "resonant characteristic" which comes with the act of playing a record!!Assuming you have a quiet table!IOW,where are those areas,in a particular design, most susceptible to "resonance"?What arm designs address this the best?
To my way of thinking(only my opinion)and from the experience of hearing a "superb" air bearing/linear arm,for so many years,playing so many familiar lp's,it is in the "bearing area" where the MAGIC is "most likely" found!....Assuming all else previously mentioned is taken care of(which IS the easy part)!
Of course we are talking about bearing friction!!! WE DON'T WANT ANY!!!!
So,based on simple logic....the design that seems to deal with this issue the "best" should yield the "best" sound...as in "most organic"!...Provided the other "not too hard to meet" standards are met.....When I say not too hard to meet,I mean that many competing designs have these issues fairly well coverd(well damped arm tubes,good cabling,good geometry,good material choices,which are put together carefully etc).
A great linear air bearing arm,like the current Kuzma should have this covered,though I have not heard one.I'd take one in an instant though!!
I DID read that Kuzma is about to release a pivoting arm,that uses "magnetics" in the bearing/antiskate area(this is just from memory,of what I read,last week).Very interesting!!
I really think my time listening to the Air Tangent was SO FABULOUS(and understatement)due to the "no bearing noise" issue,aside from the fact that all other areas were very well addressed(the pump had high pressure,and much more-so than the standard unit,and I know what I,and others heard,so don't even go there).
From what I have been able to digest...one of the gorgeous Schroder arms' biggest strength seems to come from the unique approach to the "almost non existant bearing".A REALLY GOOD THING!I have always loved the "thought"(since I did not think I had the patience to wait for it's back order,or extra cash needed for the model I wanted)of this arm,and have NO doubt as to how fabulous it must allow an lp to "sound".Even though it was reviewed in Hi-Fi Plus,and was not given the kind of enthusiastic review I had expected( I know,from good sources that "it" was not really maximized in "that" review,and I will be beaten up if some friends of mine read this,but "tough").The Schroder is too unique,and has been around too long,with refinements to NOT be fabulous,IMO!Way too much good word of mouth!Once again,I'd take one in a minute.
BTW....don't take my lomg winded posts too seriously!!!I don't want the same guilt that I had a long time ago!!
So,here is where the "rubber meets the road" for ME,and the "why" of my personal choice of a Graham Phantom as compared to the "gimballed ball-race bearing" types,like the Triplanar(an arm I am sure is everything "good" stated about it).....BUT the Graham Phantom has the "unique" feature of only ONE ULTRA QUIET/STABILIZED "to the max" contact point as it's bearing(so do the other unipivots,almost,but there is more)....The Phantom,with it's massive, almost completely non resonant material assembly(not to mention the absolute BEST/EASIEST means to "dial in all meaningful cartridge parameters")has that friggin' "Magna-glide" feature,which TOTALLY stabilizes,and damps the single point bearing(one reason why so little bearing fluid is needed,with some cartridges)!We are talking "REALLY,REALLY LOW FRICTION"!!This,SURELY is a BIG reason for it's non existant "resonant signature"(the MAJOR strength of the greatest arms,and those previously mentioned)!
I spent a year in denial about buying one,as my friend has the Phantom,which I re-set up,at his request....yet it was SO "audibly obvious",as to it's complete sonic superiority,AND uniqueness in playing "believeable" music,along with a staggering build quality/finish/attention to detail.Having been SO happy(and completely secure)with my Graham 2.2,once I had heard the "amazing" potential of the Transfiguration Orpheus,I could hold out no longer!!"IT"(the Orpheus) had to be maximized,to tha absolute MAX!With as little a "resonant signature" as could be had!In my own set-up,and with regards to what I could afford financially.The Phantom just made the most sense to me,with regards to least resonant signature,from "that" area most likely to have it....the "BEARING"!!Not to mention it's actual performance in my friend's rig,which was amazing(he has an Orpheus too,so it was not a big stretch,for me).
I know,as usual,I am getting long winded(I'm still home sick....how much TV can I actually watch?),but remember I had stated that ..."what makes the most sense"...(provided we understand some major attributes of the best sound attributes of the "best" arm designs)is how I decide on the BEST arm,for me!I don't think it is too big a stretch,but I have no question there will be doubters -:) Fine!
It seems "just logical" that, though the best "gimbal/ball race" arm designs,like the SME's and Tri Planars are wonderful(of that I have NO doubt)....if your cartridge/table parameters fall into the acceptable area of arms like the finest Air-linear,Schroder magnetic,Graham Phantom-stabilized and damped unipivot designs,then the "BEST" most life like music "should happen",in your listening space,with these designs!
Makes the MOST sense to me.
Best.
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Atmosphere,I had a Triplanar,and know how good(really so)it is for setting azimuth.In my post,I specifically stated all was "only my opinion".Also,the issue of bearing stability,as how it pertains to maintaining azimuth,with the Phantom/Magna Glide feature,is as good as it gets,IMO!Dead perfect,regardles of warps,AND on those warps the VTF IS maintained,where-as my other Unipivot(I don't know about a ball race bearing,but wonder if vtf is maintained on a warp there)would not do this!
Also,what I was alluding to was the number of contact points in the "all important bearing area"(to have "none" would certainly trump a very good one,no?).The Phantom has only "one",stabilized differently than all other unipivots!Logic would dictate that no matter how good a ball race design is,if it has more contact points than an equally well designed arm with fewer contact points,like the Phantom,"IT" would not sound as good.Also,obviously all other parameters are important,and I mentioned this,but alot of the best arms address the "bearing resonance issue",which attributes,big time,to the ultimate cost of that product.
I must assume all ball race gimballs have more than that,so the potential for resonances would seem more likely with those types.One reason I feel the other arms,like the Schroders/Linear-air line types sound so good.I'd put them above the Phantom.
This is all not to dismiss the fact that many(including me)like arms like the Triplanar,so there is no point looking at my post as some kind of "knock" to those types of arms.I was just killing time,as I was home sick. I felt I gave a "relatively decent" arguement in favor of some other type of bearing systems(other than a ball race,multi contact point,which IS still very good,btw)that have the potential to lower an arm's noise floor.That's it!Just my own logic(whether it is favored by some or not).
My ONLY concern is to actually view the arm as a NON FACTOR(sort of)!...Let it allow the cartridge to do it's thing,and be invisible(if that were only possible)!
It is,in reality,only about the cartridge!Yet,it must be attached to something...Something with as little resonance as possible.As few(stable) contacts as possible.
Who even cares about my choice of a Phantom,as I will readily admit that based on my arguement the Schroder,or better yet,the Kuzma airline would be taking it to the max!
Please don't view my post as provocative,but just some hobbyist's opinion.
Also,I could easily end up with a Triplanar,some day,and would be thrilled!!!....I just want to get back to spinning my records again!!
Best. |
Atmosphere,point well taken!Also,I'm certainly no mechanical engineer,but I have my own way of viewing things.Based on my wife's observations,they are usually wrong -:)
BTW,if I actually find that the Phantom is unavailable for an inordinately long time(I've been waiting for over two months,and I do understand the "why" of the delay),which I hope is not the case (and I certainly will wait a very,very long time before losing hope of obtaining one),I could be singing the virtues of a Triplanar."IT" would be my next logical choice!!I could always make a few bucks on my IC-70,and put that money towards a disc flattener -:)
My perspective on the disc flattener,btw,is more for the advantage of obtaining lower prices on the number of not perfectly flat LP's that appear at my local used LP source.Those are priced very cheaply,so it could be a nice investment.....Who am I kidding?I just want one!!!
See what I mean?I have my own silly way of viewing things.Just ask my wife-:)
Best. |
BTW,and this WILL be my last post here,as I'm probably getting anoying already!Yet,some "TRI" fans might appreciate this.......Personally I have always loved the look,and design of the Triplanar.That is one reason why I bought one(long ago)when my friends went the route of other arms.
I remember in 1973,I had a business luncheon with a client,across the street from where HE-2007 was held,and the guy pulls out a spec sheet(he obviously was into Hi-Fi)of this INCREDIBLE looking tonearm.IT was the early version of the Triplanar!WOW,I thought it was very unique!
That was in my Dual 1229 era,so I could see no reason why anyone could want a seperate arm!
Fast forward about 25 years(approximatey)to my owning(for three years)a Triplanar.My situation was mucked up,by a non caring dealer,who did not check with the mfgr about the arm's compatibility with my table(an early SOTA Cosmos).EVEN though I specifically asked this exact question of him!!
The arm did not fit into the arm-well properly,and the dealer told me to basically live with it!!I kid you not!!I don't go there anymore,and the guy approached me at HE-2007 like he was my best friend!WHEW!!
I had called the "incredibly nice"(you have NO idea,actually)Herb Papier,to plead my case.The guy almost cried,he was SO,SO concerned!!I am NOT exagerating!
The arm has a history of "goodness" surrounding it!If that makes any sense.
Here's one reason why.....firstly Herb made me up a "really cool" looking device to allow for my arm to work with my cartridge,somewhat.I was not too far along in my fanaticism to mind much,and it did allow for me to hear "music".
Herb was the kind of guy to actually "call" some owners of the arm(I guess he felt a bit sorry for my situation)from time to time,to "see how things were doing"!I mean he definitely came from the Sid Marks school of INCREDIBLY DECENT GENTLEMEN!!!Of another era!!
About six months before his passing away,he called me,in my place of business,with an unusually enthusiastic tone to his voice.He had made some modifications to the arm,which he liked alot,including the new wiring.
Herb stated to me,and I quote,because I WAS SO IMPRESSED WITH HIS OLD WORLD WAY OF DEALING WITH CUSTOMERS,that I remember,word for word..."Mark,you cannot believe how much better I have made the arm.Please send me yours,and I will do the upgrades for my cost.I'm hearing things I never heard before on my records"!!!!!!..I SWEAR,this is absolutely word for word true,and this is the kind of "heritage" this product has!!!Who the heck does that stuff today!!!...At the time,I was getting more experience in arm/cartridge voicing so wanted a more precise product match-up,and did not take up the offer..."What a great guy Herb was"!!!
Just thought I'd put it out there.
BTW,I still think the Phantom may be a bit quieter(just a hunch) -:) Sue me!-:) |
Audiofeil,you take my comments too literally,but you are "good" at trying to find something "bad" in many cases.
I'll stick with attempting to get the personality of the cartridge,by limiting the potential pitfalls of some arm choices.Doesn't seem too myopic to me.
Best. |
Atmosphere I saw extensive photos of "your" room/set-up,at CES 2008.To say it looks impressive would be an understatement!No doubt it must have sounded great!VERY,VERY COOL!!!If the economy had not impacted my business,I'd have made an attempt to get there.
BTW,hope you came back from Vegas with some cash in wallet.-:)....not easy to do.
Best. |
Downunder,so glad you are happy!!...Funny you mention your VPI experience,as I was at my friend Sid last week.He has the 12.5 arm,or is it 12.6?He is awaiting both the new 12.7 arm and the rim drive.I must state that he is a huge fan of VPI products,and knows HW quite well.
He had the FABULOUS Air Tangent previously,but I felt the VPI was a downgrade,from that CLASSIC!!!!....So did other fellow hobbyists in our circle......BUT.....Sid is very "chummy" with Richard Foster(of HiFi Plus).They are best friends,and when Richard visited Sid,recently he "kind of" performed a "magic act" on the VPI arm!!!NO tick tock rocking at all.Something I used to notice.....Nobody local(in the tri state NY,NJ,Conn area)could get rid of the slight sibilance that was NOT present with the Air Tangent!....Richard must be REALLY good in voicing the arm(he has the 12.7,now,and loves it).
My ears tell me this IS SO!!!I must admit that as of my last hearing the 12.5 or.6 at Sid,last week,the sound is VASTLY better than I have heard with this arm,in the past.
Next time I go,there will be the 12.7/Titan-i,and the rim drive.Also,the second best LP collection on the planet.The top spot goes to Richard!-:)
What's not to like?
Best.....enjoy your "music". |
Halcro,while I am absolutely fascinated by the Copperhead(hey,multiple patents on much of their stuff,surely means something),the "bar" stays in about the same place(as far as I am concerned),unless the Copperhead is compared to both the Phantom,and Triplanar.
Just comparing it to a well regarded Grandezza,says "nothing" about the Triplanar and Phantom.
BTW,while I was in my lengthly wait for my "newly arrived" Phantom I did look into alternatives.The Grandezza was one.In my circle the Grandezza is not thought of so highly(which does not mean much,in the overall picture)as the Triplanar,Phantom,and Vector.Hey,as of last week,I have to throw in the new VPI 12.7 too.
I stste this NOT to be controversial,but until serious "direct" comparisons are made,evrything seems to be conjeture!
One thing for sure,these are ALL superb designs,and truthfully(aside from financial constraints)I could live happily(I mean it)with any of these arms.....Yet,I am at the moment really fascinated with the Copperhead.Just from "fandom",and it's smokeable!-:)
Best. |
Yes,Halcro I did read Fremers comments.Hey,if something pushes the emvelope.... "great".I don't recall Fremer doing a "real" comparison against the Copperhead,as it was itegrated into the Criterion(gorgeous table,btw).
He did make mention of the Phantom vs the "16,000" dollar Cobra(Hmmm),and though the Cobra seemed to be his preferrence(I did not get the impression he thought it was a huge chasm),he did not seem to make a big deal about this.I have no interest in E-mailing him,as to his preferrence.His tastes are "his",and his music of choice differs from mine.I cannot tell you how many times I have seen this scenario!....But I DO hope you are right!!...Actually I did hear the Continuum/Cobra,at HE 2006.Sounded superb,with the given system.So did the Walker!
I truly am happy if there is something else "pushing the envelope".My point of view(from experience,and just my own taste)is...... #1-I would have to hear it enough times,in familiar systems,with program material I know well,and...#2-If item #1 cannot be easily done,then there "must" be enough good word of mouth,by enough experienced folks(that I respect),to create "believeability" in that product.Of course this would take quite some time,to develope such a reputation!No?
The Phantom is highly regarded,and I know it well,but it's only been around for about two to three years....The Triplanar has been around for around thirty years(and refined to the max).Not to mention I had one for three years.Even with a not so hot coupling with my table,it was "way" good enough to not be so happy seeing it go(to my accountant,as a barter-:).....That's a serious track record!!!
We'll see!!
Btw,you are SO right about general value,as it relates to the US dollar!I love alot of stuff,but must think HARD about getting something that is inflated.Either by economical considerations,or by high profile reviews.
Best. |
I want to make one more comment regarding the Triplanar.Just hobbyspeak,and only my opinion.
Although I now have a new,and wonderful(not much for me to find fault with,in a "sane" world)Graham Phantom,the Triplanar reminds me of the irreplaceable,and CLASSIC Leica Rangefinder cameras.
Built to an amazing standard.Built and refined for years,and performs spectacularly!Collectible as hell!!
One does NOT see too many owners getting rid of them,for the latest gadgetry!!
Best. |
Logenn,I am not someone who likes only one product.I am a true fan of many fine designs(like Leica,which I always wanted too,but got a Cannon).If someone asks me a question about a product I own,hopefully I can give some meaningful feedback.BUT I am no authority!!A hobbyist,only.
OK,so about your question....I LOVE the Phantom.I like the fact that it has only one mechanical contact point,in this "seemingly new" very sharp bearing.It sounds amazingly like an air bearing design(which I KNOW,from experience sounds fabulous,and no resonances riding along with music).My MAIN reason for getting it,other than performance and familiarity,was economic.Sorry!!
I previously had owned the 2.2,and had the armboard drilled for a Graham,already.Also,I had the IC-70 arm wire.Of course,my friend went from the 2.2 and got a Phantom,so I knew the benefits of moving that way.
Yet,I know (I had one some time ago)that the Triplanar is a fabulous arm(why can't I like it too?),mainly due to "amazingly good word of mouth"(not unlike the Phantom)and it has been further refined.
So,my suggestion is to look at the design(of whatever you like),check out the design parameters that make it a viable product,and compare it's attributes to other contenders.What seems like the most plausible choice,based on the design brief?
That's how I do it,which is fairly logical,I think.
Good luck |
Halcro,I wonder if you are involved in the industry,or a hobbyist?Personally I have no issue with either,but I get the impression,from your confident dismissal of the Phantom,Triplanar,and apparrent knocking of the Schroder,that you "just might have a hidden agenda"!
If so,good for you,as I have absolutely no problem with coaxing out some old fashion heated debates,on interesting "hobby" topics.Yet,I think there is a flaw in some of your comments(but DO keep them coming).-:)
Firstly,who (with real hobby experience)cares what Fremer,or Valin likes?They have their own,personal,tastes.Good for them!I have been to numerous homes,of reviewers,in the NY area,where the consenses of the hobbyists present was NOT complimentary of those set-ups.Meaning nothing,other than the "guy" owning the set-up liked "his" own way of doing things.Just fine by me,but I will choose what I like,and no amount of good press does anything for me,other than to cause me to give myself some exposure to a particular product.Recently an "industry" person gave me a very negative description of M.F. set-up's sound!First hand exposure by this guy,but I still dismissed it as his(the industry dude's)taste.We all like what we like.
I definitely am NOT trying to be demeaning,just posing a counter arguement to some of your thoughts.All in good spirits.I hope!
Other than knowing someone who likes something,have you actually compared the Triplanar,Phantom,not to mention Schroder,to the new to the hobby,but fascinating, Continuum Copperhead?I don't include the Cobra,because at 16,000 bucks it will not be a commonly used arm.No matter how good it "might be"!
BTW,my friend was recently at a trade show,and ran into Fremer(who was very nice,according to my pal).My friend,who is very well off financially,asked M.F. what arm he would recommend he buy(my friend has a ton of experience,but wanted to get some feedback).The response was to get a Phantom!!This is not heresay,but a factual account given to me by my pal.
Yet,to me,and in complete honesty,it still amounts to little.Who knows why the Phantom was recommended?I now know it is a great product,as I have it installed.I had a Triplanar,which I liked alot,but have a hunch(based on my way of thinking,ONLY)the Phantom "might" allow a cartridge to give a tad more!A superb "real world" design!NOT 16,000 US dollars!
As to the Copperhead,which I admit to being fascinated with(mostly from NOT knowing it's sound)based on the design brief.Fremer "did" have a negative comment,from my memory of the review.He mentioned something about the arm's internal wiring to "not" be so well addressed.I think he alluded to the possibility of internal "tube resonances".He did not think it was audible,but I got the impression it was still a design in progress.That comment would bother me,if I were lokking to get one. I admit to disagreeing "somwhat" with Audiofeil(God forbid),about putting the "chicken before the egg"!My thoughts are it would be best,if one got the sense that we could "only" hear the cartridge's personality!With all else just getting out of the way!If all else were perefect,THIS would be the most ideal way to hear an LP.Sure the arm is of major importance,but there really should be NO resonances,or annoyances introduced by it,if possible.
I KNOW,in reality that cannot be,but it is how I kinda like to view it!!!...Just my own idiosyncratic way of looking(listening)at things "audio".....ONLY my opinion!!!Nothing more!!
So,if you,Halcro,are so confident about the definitive superiority of the Copperhead(let's exclude the Cobra,for financial reasons)over the afore-mentioned Triplanar,and Phantom(not to mention your legit comment about the Schroder(jury still out on that one),why not post a review of it on this forum?
I would love to read it,and believe me,I hope there are many more products to come,that push the envelope further.Even beyond those that fascinate all of us,as of now.
Best. |
BTW,forgot to mention another point(just some opinionated thoughts.....hopefully taken,"as meant", in good spirits)regarding the supposed "fabulosity" of the "Raven",which I have heard quite a few times(I have no issue with it,and it seems like a very fine table).I DO like the product,alot....BUT...
One thing,mentioned by Valin,....He states a "lack of air"!He goes on about a "lack of spacial characteristics between instruments on the sounstage".Also,there is mention of a somewhat "dark coloration"!He felt the need to add a platter mat,and there is NO effective clamping system!Some would view this as "not so hot"!!How can one be sure the LP is lying "ideally" flat.I guess Valin doesn't think that is so important to good sound!-:)
Yet,it is a RAVE review!!!.....I know this is compared to the wonderful Walker(I've heard that table a load of times,and "it" IS great),but it does make one "think",I would hope!!!Unless one takes these reviewers too literally.
BTW,just so you know where I am coming from,I would gladly own a Raven,but I am happy with alternatives,of which there are many, in the hobby.To me,there are many ways to get really good sound.
WE all split hairs WAY too much,but it IS fun!!
Best. |
Halcro,you do exhibit some(healthy) sarcasm in your response to me.Fine!
I,like you have heard ALL arms mentioned(by me) in domestic situations!
OK,so the guy who is the CEO of Continuum,and is the Australian agent for Triplanar likes "his" design better.Not a big stretch,and I can understand you taking his word on it,if he is a good friend who's ears you trust.Let's leave that one alone.
I certainly don't cling to any "fact about any supossed superiority of "any" particular design.I've heard a few arm/tables too.Including the Rockport(two different models)in domestic settings.
If you think I am clinging to anything giving more credibility to my own choice of a Phantom,or my appreciation of the refined over time Triplanar,than you truly miss my point.Completely!!
I have no interest in an A/B comparison of my own,and YES there was a time when these types of arms were compared,in the OLD long since missed TAS!!
As to the sarcastic mentioning of my recollection of what MF or JV has stated,it is my hobby,and I have a good memory!!More than that I cannot say.
I repeat my contention that you have no real world way of knowing about your " assumption" of the Copperhead's superiority over the Phantom or TRI,which you DO mention,with certainty!
You HAVE NOT MADE THE NECESSARY A/b COMPARISONS TO MAKE SUCH A CLAIM!...SORRY,BUT THAT IS THE CASE.NO? |
When I requested that you,Halcro, possibly "post" a product review,of the Copperhead on Audiogon,I was being quite serious,and with no hidden agenda.It seems like a "way cool",and inventive design,and the web-site hasn't got much!From a selfish standpoint.."I just love tonearms",coming in second to the finest MC's,in what enthuses me.
Based on some of your recent enthusiastic comments(eye opening actually),I think "we" would love to see this!!
The arm is priced in the ballpark,for some to seriously consider,and since the recent product review in Stereophile was a "combo plate",of arm/table,a dedicated review,by someone with experience would be invited,and appreciated by many.At the very least,me!!
Of course this is asking for quite a bit,and I definitely can't blame you for disregarding a request to do so....I admit I'd probably decline myself...BUT....maybe you might be in such a mood to do so,at some point....."Like soon"-:)
Enjoy!! |
Hey,Halcro...I am sorry for the seeming tone of my last post.I was being hurried off the computer by my daughter,and accidentally hit the "CAPS" key.This surely looked like I actually was getting excited!Whether one believes me or not,I really don't care all that much if product "A" is better than product "B"(so long as my own music sounds good,to me).I have always stated that I am a fan of "all things audio".A life long hobby,so maybe that is a reason for my memory of "all things audio" being fairly good..Including reviews,which are still only opinions.
You are a hobbyist who seems to be passionate about a particular product.I have no doubts about that product being superb!!!
Whether one believes me or not,about my approach to audio "fandom",I can only stste that many wonderful designs intrigue me.
I would love to(like you seem to have done,with the Copperhead)proclaim the Transfiguration Orpheus as "the best",but I could not possibly do so,even though private E-mails by high brow industry folks have told me so. I really cannot take another person's word for something as "absolute",unless I have heard it for myself,under the conditions necessary.Not really viable in today's world,as you have stated.You are 100% correct!!!I've heard some seemingly well "reviewed" set-ups that I did NOT get!Lucky to have heard them,though,but a definite learning experience,about following one's own road!
Accept my remarks as non confrontational,if you can.You certainly have the right to express your enthusiastic opinion,about something you know to be excellent!!Without this kind of feedback,this forum would not be as interesting to me.BTW,if you send me a Copperhead,I will be happy to give it an enthusiastic go-round-:)I cannot afford it any other way.
Best.
Best. |
Halcro,NOW a 12 inch DaVinci TOO? You're such a tease! -:) |
Larry,you are "SOOOOO" right!!! |
Hey Thomas,I think what mas "meant" was that at some point,"very high up the performance ladder",the differences are more about compatibility,and correct settings.The differences between the Kuzma,TRI,Phantom,Davinci,alone,should not make or break a good set-up,if done correctly.
-:) |
BTW Thomas,I believe I have on "many occassions" mentioned my superlative listening experiences with an air bearing parallel tracking arm!I mentioned that it was my "opinion" that anyone not hearing a superb set-up utilizing one,was missing something special!..I still believe this,but to infer that these differences,between the "absolute best" arms(take the 2.2 and SME off that list,and I owned both of them)will be HUGE is not the "complete picture"!
Though I miss my listening exposure to the air bearing design at my friend's home,that system employing a different and not quite as good arm,is still quite superb.By "any" standard,and trust me,it's owner is absolutely as critical as any here!!If anyone is so posessed of an opinion that this business of "super-arm" differences(though they DO exist) is something to get overly concerned about(at "this" level),then I think you are listening to the hardware too much,and not focusing on the music,like you could.I think there comes a point where over-analysis takes away from musical pleasure!I too like to gaze at the coolness of my set-up.
My own perspective,though I seem to get overly analytical at times,is we still split hairs a "bit" too much.
In truthfulness,when I was home sick awhile ago,and posted that long winded post about why I felt the Phantom had a better chance of outperforming the Triplanar(I spent my money on both)due to lower potential bearing noise,I NEVER really felt one would outpoint the other in any really meaningful way,that could NOT be compensated for elsewhere in the system!I bought what I preferred,but could EASILY have gone the other way,with a smile on my face,if "circumstances were different"!
BTW,Z,why do I get the distinct impression you are a fan of Dennis Miller? -:)
Best. |
Z...Analytical,and funny!That's all. |
Well, Miller is a bit obnoxious too,but I really like the guy!-:) |
Larry,as you probably know,I have an Orpheus.My dear friend Sid has the Titan-i which I have heard loads of times.I have to give it to you.....you have the sound comparisons "nailed"!That is exactly how I would describe those differences.Great job,as usual!! |
