This is a wonderful thread. Why wonderful? Because it points out how many music lovers post on this site. I'm talking about music lovers vs equipment freaks.
I agree on the "tulip" DGs. Most of them sound really good.
And speaking of the Mercury's, I have a lot of them. Here's what I've found ... The Phillips "Golden Imports" are Mercury reissues that have terrific sound and quieter vinyl than the originals. Don't pass 'em up. |
Prcinka referred to phase reversal in the first response to this thread; but it was never followed up. With use of an absolute phase switch I have found DG records to be generally very good, certainly above average. Being able to listen to a record (or CD/DVD) in normal and reverse phase allows one to select which setting provides more clarity,nuance,dynamics and a deeper view into the soundstage. I think many of the negative comments would disappear if the listeners had the chance to choose the setting they prefer. |
Thanks Prcinka, I was looking at record labels, not jackets. Now I'll need to look again. |
OK...have a good time reading.....
http://fischer.hosting.paran.com/music/dgg-lps/dg-6digits-intro.htm |
Can someone clarify "red stereo label"? Looking at my DGs the older ones (but not yet tulip) have the silver Stereo word in the center. Most others have red printing for more than the word Stereo. I don't own any with only the word Stereo in red. |
Czarivey, as it happens I picked up Karajan/Beethoven Symp 1 and 2 from the 1962 cycle today and I agree with you. 1 and 2 have the fancy crown and the silver "stereo" label in the center and it does not sound nearly as good as no 3,5, and 7 which has the red "stereo" label over on the right hand side. Thanks so much for this tip. |
red stereo labels have best recordings. |
Brownsfan, I feel its a worthy pursuit trying to find the best of the Berlin/Karajan recordings. Non of them are going to be great sounding, but they are such a great orchestra with a great dictatorial conductor that demanded perfection in a bygone era; its simply necessary to hear these records as this level of orchestra playing/performance is stunning. |
Jetrexpro, my thoughts exactly on the Berlin recordings. Those in the Jesus Christus Kirche were much better. As I recall, the change in venue was forced on him and he wasn't happy. |
Before they went digital and before they went to transistors. |
there were several re-issues of the boxset...so it really depends which year pressing it is.... |
I just pick up near mint vinyl copies of Karajan's 1962 Beethoven Symphonies no 3, 5 and 7. These recordings sound very good on my system. Back in December I bought the complete set of the 1962 cycle and thought it sounded pretty bad but these individual records for some reason sound very much better. Actually they sound really great which was very surprising - Jet |
Not a great DG recording but an amazing performance of Beethoven's 5th symphony with Carlos Kleiber/Vienna Philharmonic. He was an amazing conductor! If you want to see a conductor that is totally in touch with his musicians and his art watch him on You tube - Jet |
For those who may be reading this thread and who are interested in some similar additional information, here are two other threads to spark your interests:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1205460173
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1083989129&openfrom&13&4#13
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Egrady, Thank you for the informative comparisons. I'll be seeking out some of these Decca/London sets. The info about Kenneth Wilkinson is good to know as well. This thread is turning into a good resource for lovers of classical music on vinyl |
DG vinyl, in general, lags behind Decca and other labels. I'm referring to pre-digital recordings, sound quality only. The early stereo recordings, like Karajan's 1962 Beethoven Cycle, have compressed dynamics. I don't know why, perhaps to make the records easier to track. Later DG went to large numbers of microphones, which hurt the more natural soundstage the early recordings had.
Compare the Beethoven Piano Concerto set Kempff with the Berlin on DG to the Ashkenazy/Chicago on Decca/London. The DG set sounds pretty good if you can find it first label. But if you listen to the Decca set you'll see what DG did to the dynamic range. Between the two I still listen to the Kempff because the performance is my favorite, but Ashkenazy has far better sound.
Compare the early Brahms Symphony set on DG, Karajan, to the Solti on Decca/London. The DG sounds pretty good, but it pales when compared to the Decca set. As with the Beethoven set, Kenneth Wilkinson was the Decca recording engineer. That almost always means great sound quality.
What is really odd is the sound quality of Karajan's 1962 Beethoven Symphonies on SACD. While I usually don't like SACD, in this case I prefer them to vinyl. The SACD has much better dynamic range, no compression like the vinyl.
I believe the early DG recordings, before they went to vast numbers of mic's, probably have better sound than we've ever heard. If the Karajan 1962 Beethoven SACD's are any indication. Like Colombia, DG's mastering of the early recordings may have been a good fit in the early 1960's, but it prevents us from hearing what is really on those tapes today. |
Lowrider, The Karajan/Berlin/Brahms Symphonies from the 1980s sound just plain bad. Imagine my surprise after many years of suffering with the several Karajan/Brahms cycles on CD and then finally hearing the wonderful mid 1960's cycle on LP for the first time just a few weeks ago. I listened to all four symphonies non stop one evening. Brahms played by an amazing orchestra with clarity precision and passion. I needed to share my excitement with my music loving friends on this site. |
Jetrexpro, that explains a lot.
But don't get me started on DG's entrance into digital. They ruined some great recordings. |
"As to Karajan's recordings, those done in the Berlin Philharmonie from around 1978 onwards are compromised. Earlier ones are much better, on both DG and EMI."
The earlier recordings were for the most part not done in the Philharmonic Hall, They were done in a church in Berlin.
As I remember from reading a Herbert Von Karajan biography, the Philharmonic hall under went some renovations in the early to mid 70's and that is when they started to record there. |
Thanks guys. IMHO, this is the best thread on audiogon for a while. |
As to Karajan's recordings, those done in the Berlin Philharmonie from around 1978 onwards are compromised. Earlier ones are much better, on both DG and EMI. Agree with your Karajan DG findings, which makes little sense since late analogue recording was SOTA. Must be the DG multi-miking techniques (and Karajan's insistence to have control over recording). |
On DG, I very much enjoy the sound and performance of the Nathan Milstein, J.S. Bach, Sonaten & Partiten box set |
I have around 1300 classical vinyl lp that I bought along the years, but my main reference for good sound is:
http://www.high-endaudio.com/supreme.html
the three first lists divinity, demi gods and basic list have never deceived me. |
Thanks very much, Jet and Rushton! You are right about the evolution in performance styles. Rushton, your list is greatly appreciated. |
Fabsound, some suggestions in response to you request for
vinyl recommendations:
---------------------
Beethoven String Qts - opinions will be all over the
place. And different performing ensembles bring differing
strengths in the various period quartets (early, middle,
late). I recommend the following LPs for their excellent
sound quality coupled with very good overall performances:
Vegh Quartet on the French Valois label, reissued on
Telefunken. The Valois pressings sound a bit better but
the Telefunken pressings are good and very reliable.
Talich Quartet on Calliope 1631, 1634, 1637, 1638, 1639
1640
Julliard String Quartet on RCA (sound quality will vary
with pressing)
-------------------------
Mozart String Quartets
The Amadeus Quartet on Deutsche Grammophon are very good
across the board.
The Salomon String Quartet on Hyperion are nice for a more
historically informed performance quality.
-------------------------
Bach Cantatas
I continue to enjoy the Telefunken complete Cantatas
series with Harnoncourt and Leonhardt conducting. It is
one of the earliest efforts to bring some greater
historically informed performance practices to record.
While the choices made sound a bit dated in comparison to
where the HIP efforts evolved, the singing is quite
marvelous and all are nicely captured in the recordings.
--------------------
Mozart Oboe Quarter K370
The Boston Chamber Players makes a fine effort on this
piece in RCA LSC 6167
--------------------
Bach Cello Suites
Janos Starker, Mercury SR3-9016 - reissued in great sound
by Speakers Corner and still currently available new
Frans Helmerson on BIS LP 5, LP 25, LP 65
--------------------
Good luck in your search!
.
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Am listening to my mint minus LP of Dvorak Cello Concerto with Karajan
/Berlin/ Rostropovich I got the ebay. Wow this sounds great! So much more
dynamic and alive than the CD.
Will be great to sometime compare it to the Pierre Fournier, George Szell/Berlin
Philharmonic LP which must also sound fantastic.
Fabsound no I do not have any vinyl recommendations for your above requests.
Got good recordings some of those on CD.
One thing to keep in mind about older Bach recordings is there will be a
different performance practice than recordings after around 1980. Many newer
recordings will use instruments from the time of Bach so will have a more
authentic sound-Jet |
Does anyone have recommendations for excellent recordings of the following works on vinyl:
Beethoven and Mozart string quartets (possibly complete box sets)
Bach cantatas (looking specifically for BWV 69 but also otherst-- they're all great)
Mozart oboe quartet 370
Bach cello suites |
The Decca playback curve.
http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/micro-iphono/ |
Any DG analog recording converted to digital and output onto CD sounds mediocre. Abbado's recording of Simon Boccanegra comes to mind - the vinyl version is marvellous. Some of the DDD CDs are also poor - I found the highly-regarded Brahms 4 by Carlos Kleiber to be unlistenable on CD, but the LP version is superb.
As to Karajan's recordings, those done in the Berlin Philharmonie from around 1978 onwards are compromised. Earlier ones are much better, on both DG and EMI. Simon Rattle's output with the Berlin Philharmonic suffers likewise and I refuse to buy any of it. Having recently heard them live I believe that the BPO are still playing as if Karajan were on the rostrum anyway.
On the other hand there are some stunning DG LPs from Barenboim when he was in charge in Paris. Abbado and Giulini in Chicago, and just about anyone in Vienna. |
Mapman, I happen to have that CD and it sounds very good. Accordion transcriptions of Bach pieces. That band grooves pretty good! |
"Galliano | Bach (2010)" is one of the best. |
Agree pretty much word for word with Kmccarty on Fournier. He was a great cellist, possibly underrated.
Some other DGG recordings of his that I would recommend for sound and performance are :-
Strauss Don Quixote with Karajan and BPO
Bach Cello Suites - (just as good as Starker on Mercury IMHO) |
DG must have done something right at a certain point in time with their chamber music. Manfred Eicher of the German ECM label worked as a producer of chamber music for DG before he started his own label. ECM has done many excellent recordings in terms of sound and creating new sonic landscapes, but I rarely listen to them now because it ended up being a bit too much of a sonic mediation. I listen much more to classical chamber music these days and to small group jazz of the 50s and 60s. |
We are amassing a large group of great sounding DG LP recordings. I for one am happy to know of these.
I was shopping for Berg's LULU suite on vinyl and ran across a Sony CD of James Levine and the Met orchestra from 1993 all digital recording. It arrived today. This is AMAZING recording quality. Depth and transparency for days. It includes Wozzeck fragments which I have not heard. I must say that I like Berg's music very much. Especially the Violin Concerto. His LULU suite sounds like Mozart on drugs.- Jet |
Another recommendation for a DG orchestral recording that sounds very good is the Stravinsky Violin Concerto, with Ozawa, Boston Symphony, and Perlman. 2531 110
DG seemed to use entirely different groups of engineers for their chamber music recordings and a much simpler miking philosophy. As a result, many of their chamber music recordings are very good, particularly the recordings with the Boston Symphony Players. Some examples:
Berg, Chamber Concerto for Pf & Vn with 13 winds instruments, 2531 007
Messiaen, Quatuor pour la Din du Temps (Qt for the End of Time), 2531 093
Stravinsky, Concertina for 12 Instruments / Ragtime for Eleven Instruments, 2530 551
Stravinsky, L'Histoire du Soldat, 2530 609
Carter, Sonata for Flute, Oboe, Cello & Harpsicord, 2530 104
Schoenberg, Suite Op. 29, 2531 277
. |
Fabsound, Glad you got a few of these better sounding DG recordings. No substitute for hearing the Berlin/Karajan from the mid 60's. That orchestra and conductor at the height of their powers.
Kmccarty- good info here. We are not subscribers to the Berlin Phil site but have listened/watched some of their streams briefly and they sound /look very good. |
A really great sounding, classic DG recording is the Dvorak Cello Concerto with Pierre Fournier, George Szell and Berlin Philharmonic. The performance is superb and supplanted the Karajan / Rostropovich as my favorite recording of this piece. The tulip LP's are difficult to find in good condition, but the later reissue on DG's budget label is excellent-sounding too, and is easier to find in good condition.
Also in excellent sound with superb performance is the Beethoven Triple Concerto with Geza Anda, Wolfgang Schneiderhan, Pierre Fournier, Fricsay and Berlin Philharmonic. Same applies as above, don't be afraid of the budget LP reissue on DG Privilege. In fact, it sounds better than my tulip pressing. Go figure.
For admirers of the Berlin Philharmonic: NOT on DG, but a new recording of the Schumann symphonies with Simon Rattle and the Berlin Philharmonic - released on the Berlin Philharmonic's own label - is well worth downloading in high resolution. The sound is fantastic and the performances will make you re-think these symphonies. I bought the LP's also, but the digital beats them. |
Thanks very much, Jet. I immediately went online and purchased a few of the albums you mentioned |
Yes, I have heard it. One of the great Mercurys. |
Anyone heard the Mercury Living Presenc LP:
BERG-SUITES FROM WOZZECK LULU-LONDON-DORATI MERCURY? |
It may have not been released on LP in US, my copy was purchased in Germany. |
Schubert, that recording is from 1989. I have it on CD and is a digital recording. It is very good sounding CD. It also contains as you might expect, some Webern and Schoenberg. Would be interesting to compare record to CD. |
A GREAT sounding Lulu Suite on vinyl was the EMI recording by Simon Rattle with the City of Birmingham SO with Arleen Auger in great voice.
Someone "borrowed" my copy so can't give you the number. |
does any one have a recommendation for a great sounding vinyl recording of Alban Berg's Lulu Suite? |
The Paganini Concerto collection, I can't recall the title of the album or the violinist, is a superb DG recording. I just don't have it. I believe the title is something like "Paganini Diabolique" or similar. Terrific performances and (IMO) the best recording job of any DG. |
Steve Hoffman Music Forum has many discussions focusing on sound quality of particular albums and the different versions of them, as reissues, etc.
Some of the older DG recordings are referred to as "Tulip Label" (blue tulips) and Covers with the word "Stereo" in red. |
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So, what label has the best recordings ? Mercury Living Presence |
Try BIS, ECM, Steeplechase, Wergo, Erato, EMI, Decca, Harmondi Mundi, Blue Note, Contemporary to name a few. |
You'll find that answer in the archives, the subject of many threads, with many answers. |
