Had a party at my place one time. Half a dozen audiophiles, half a dozen Porschephiles, another half a dozen friends from work. One of the audiophiles was Shunyata CEO Caelin Gabriel.
Caelin brought along a few of his newest power cords.With everyone gathered in the listening room we played some music. After a while Caelin pulled out one of his power cords. We plugged it in. We did not play the same boring track over and over again. We just keep playing music. Only now with a different power cord.
This was back in the early 1990's. The idea that something as seemingly irrelevant as a power cord could have any effect on the sound at all was ludicrous, unimaginable. Even if there was some difference, how could you hear it? Everyone's eyes went wide as they realized there really is a difference, one is clearly obviously better than another, and its not at all hard to hear.
Again, this was 1990. Hard to imagine how bone head ignorant, stubborn, and (apparently) deaf a guy would have to be to make a video like this today. As obvious as it was then, that was nearly 30 years ago. Cables today are vastly superior to back then.
But did you notice? The video pretends to be a "discussion" but then immediately the first thing he says is power cords do not make any difference.
That's not a discussion at all, let alone a good one. Indoctrination, maybe. Rationalization for not spending money, probably. But a good discussion? No way.
... That's not a discussion at all, let alone a good one. Indoctrination,
maybe. Rationalization for not spending money, probably ...
Audioholics posted a clue suggesting that right below the video: "Always remember the Audioholics.com mantra 'only poorly designed cables can be sonically distinguishable' and you will never make a bad purchasing decision. Once all of the nonsensical claims are peeled away ..." So they created a self-fulfilling prophesy. Or, they are the victim of "expectation bias." It's pretty obvious.
SHAME! SHAME! SHAME! How dare you ACTUALLY TRY to discern whether cables could make an AUDIBLE DIFFERENCE, by trusting YOUR OWN SENSES? This thread should IMMEDIATELY be deleted/censored! Anyone that agrees, MUST be ostracized/culturally cancelled/black-balled for failing to depend solely on the: I-can’t-HEAR-it, I-haven’t-actually-TRIED-it....BUT, no-way-it-can-work-if-I-don’t-BELIEVE-it, you-can’t-PROVE-it-works, naysayer mantras. (snort of derision)
Turkey jerky. All I can say is I bought a mid-range power cord (around $500) for my integrated amp and the impact was immediate. Not subtle. The manufacturer cord had no distress. So I was comparing apples to apples. It wasn't even comparable. I'm sure this is not the experience of all and may be the experience of some. Just like all other components, some work better with others and some do not. The variability in this hobby is vast. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it does not. I would not rely on the video to sway your decision. If you need an upgrade, then go for it. If not, then be happy!
I just popped in a new 20 amp Square D slathered with silver grease. That made a bigger improvement in SQ than any power cable I've ever auditioned here, cryo ing all the way...
fuzztone, color me interested in your comment, given it's authentic and not a joke.
I did look up silver grease, and it's a real product, so perhaps you are serious?
I am having a 200 amp Square D panel being put in. What are you referring to, a 20A breaker treated with silver grease? Please give me explicit directions as to what you did.
I will be having the grounding bars in the panel replaced with copper.
An interesting take by Andrew Singer. Not an up/down discussion, but how to sanely go about buying cables, at least at the outset of equipment purchases.
The choice of materials and production technique make a difference, no matter what the category or industry. Is a $600 Accurate fishing reel a better performer than a Zebco $89 fishing reel? Absolutely! I could not have landed that 150 lb. bluefin tuna with the Zebco. This also applies to inter connects, speaker cables, and power cables in the audio industry. As with everything, there are diminishing returns as you move up the scale in price. However, as with nearly all product categories, the higher technology and materials applications are, to some respectable level, trickled down to the medium priced products of the series. You get very good value in about the middle price range of the product line. No matter what your budget is, for audio interconnects, speaker cables, and power cables you will be rewarded with improved audio performance when stepping up the chain to at least a mid level cost of goods. Your choice of brand preference, of course. All of the established brands offer good quality products.
I became a believer in quality cables back in around 1990 when I replaced my Discwasher Goldends (yes, the record cleaner brand, Discwasher, came out with an early iteration of step-up grade connecting cables in 1979) with early generation of upper-end Audioquest interconnects. It was a revelation of musical discovery. I was amazed and astonished at such an improvement in audio performance through interconnects. I have made several upgrades since and there has always been a realized improvement. I am very satisfied now with what I have and all of my interconnects, speaker cables, and power cables will likely be with me for the rest of my life. Cables do make a difference, all of them.
mammothguy54 The choice of materials and production technique make a difference, no matter what the category or industry. Is a $600 Accurate fishing reel a better performer than a Zebco $89 fishing reel? Absolutely! I could not have landed that 150 lb. bluefin tuna with the Zebco. This also applies to inter connects, speaker cables, and power cables in the audio industry. As with everything, there are diminishing returns as you move up the scale in price.
>>>>>One wonders if you could land a white shark with an AudioQuest Hurricane power cord? 🦈
Micro arcing has placed havoc on our faucets (the seats, though easily replaceable, go first - then eventually the faucet structure itself) ever since cable TV was installed in our apartment building.
The cable companies "ground" to a cold water pipe, wich then creates micro arcing at the pipe ends/faucets.
I could measure low voltage (on the faucets) with my old/better Fluke MM, but it's hit and miss with the $20 job I now have.
I once took measurements (faucets) when the cable ground accidentally detached from the water pipe and guess what - Zero voltage.
Oddly enough the bass response/clarity of my system also improved until the cable ground was reattached/repaired.
I have been in contact with fuzztone in regard to particulars of the recommendation to use silver grease, but I thought the conversation may be important/helpful to everyone here. He warned me against using it on a breaker where a motor will be used, i.e. refrigerator, dishwasher, etc. I can also think of dehumidifier, garage door opener, etc.
In my case, I have a concern about potentially having a problem with a component that would employ a motorized volume control. I believe that my breakers to the sound equipment will be separate, but for some, their utility outlets, i.e. the ones spaced around the room for vacuum, etc. may be on the same circuit as the audio gear. Thus, putting some silver grease on the breaker could potentially cause a problem when cleaning with a vacuum?
I am conducting risk assessment of this idea, and so far it seems that the grease may dry out over time, thus the recommendation of fuzztone that the breaker be replaced every approx. 4-5yr., and the potential for issues when using a motor.
I am seeking input from my electrician, too. I do not wish to disdain fuzztone's advice, but I am going doing my own due diligence. :)
Hasn’t this subject been covered sufficiently over the past 25 years or so, you know, from Silclear to Quicksilver to Quicksilver Gold to the newer contact enhancers with Graphene? I mean, come on, people, let’s do some due diligence! I’d be rather curious how big your electrician’s eyes get 👁 👁 when you tell him what audiophiles have been doing to electrical contacts for the past 25 years.
My reply from fuzztone seems to indicate the concern is not so much the motors, but the potentiality for intrusion onto the audio signal. As usual, seek your answers prior to taking such steps.
I suppose that the parts of a circuit breaker one would slather with a silver grease, might be those that grip the box’s buss bar and Romex, could escape some.
"
I suppose that the parts of a circuit breaker one would slather with a silver grease, might be those that grip the box’s buss bar and Romex, could escape some."
Rodman, That type of thinking (correct BTW) only exists with those that are not trying to degrade the idea.
Or perhaps someone heard about using silver grease on a circuit breaker and decided they would "slather" some on the connection point point to the buss-bar, not knowing that the technique is used to grease the contacts of large breakers, not the connection points of residential breakers .... likely the result also of not knowing the contact resistance of that connection to the buss-bar.
I suppose that the parts of a circuit breaker one would slather with a
silver grease, might be those that grip the box’s buss bar and Romex,
could escape some.
No comments , science versus beliefs no electrical engineer would support the Validity of the famous claims about power cords unless he turned out to be a cable manufacturer 3000$ power cords, 18,000 $ speaker cables? We audiophiles are the faithful ones. Science is no cure, He is preaching to the wrong crowd
Grease is required by code where I live on main feed aluminum wire. Other than that I don’t see any reason to make a mess in the box with grease. If it’s an outdoor panel a little dielectric grease might be a good idea to help against corrosion on connections. Good video in the OP though a bit long.
I understand the tendency to compare the audiophile life with the religious life. Both are essentially solitary lives. They're spent contemplating the most abstract art form (music) by constantly swinging from the euphoria of music-driven emotion to the complex analysis of aural data. And then there are specs! I would have freaked out in the 70's if someone had handed me a set of Nordost speaker cables or MIT power lines.
Misnomer regarding the religious life being solitary. In Christianity it is most definitely NOT solitary, except for those prevented from fellowship or the uncommitted. As inaccurate as saying race car drivers lead essentially a solitary life.
Gene in that video supposedly reviews audio products, but a high percentage of his videos are about cables. It’s obvious he is biased, and even he himself tried to tell me that I did not hear what I heard in a demo at a dealer. I told him don’t take me for a fool and I won’t take him for one. Every point the cult on his videos made, I dissproved until their last response was that with time switching between cables, the ear can’t remember what it heard within that time. So I asked how does gene then make comparisons between products that he heard weeks , months, or years ago, or does this theory on,y apply to cables when it benefits their argument. Lol. They’re so desperate to debunk this, it’s like their whole world will explode if you blow up their reality bubble. Danny Ritchie posted a video a video in the subject and of course they blew it off. I posted a video showing actual measurements as they’re always talking about, and dead silence since. Seems gene doesn’t know how to do measurements? Maybe only when he can figure out how to use them to “prove” his ideas. And never any videoed showing actual listening, though I wouldn’t trust them to do an unbiased test based on what I’ve seen
+1 Excellent point. Human memory in including audio memory is long-lasting. Otherwise, you wouldn’t be able to remember the words to songs or the music or the dialog from movies. You might even say human beings are the sum total of their memories. Knowledge can be defined as what’s left over after you subtract out everything you forgot from school.
The memory of many aspect of sound is short term... For example the complex and subtle change in colors and timbre between 2 cables....A melody is long term memory because the sound pattern is linked to kinesthesic association and pre-defined or pre-experienced emotional responses...
If i can judge some variations in changes about a piece of electronic components in an audio system, the cause is the memory of my related emotional response to the sound pattern which is long term memory... After a few seconds nobody remember the exact pattern of some complex composite sound but everybody can learn to retrieve his emotional response imprinted in the brain-body....
This is linked to the fact that hearing sound is quantified in hertz and is an ability that decline with age, but listening ability increase with age and are linked to the process of retrieving the emotional response associated with the wished for sound pattern, this emotional response is imprinted in the body -brain memory and available in the long term...
This is only my own experience.... This does not go well tough with the simplistic argument of objectivist that deny the hability to remember a past sound experience.... Any audiophile can learn to recognize the emotional response imprinted in his brain-body and associated with a past positive or negative sound experience....
My point is only there to touch the complexity of this subject, i dont pretend to explain anything, only to pointed to the complexity of the matter....
Aural memory is no more accurate than visual memory. Yes we can associate certain feelings with aural stimuli just as with visual but those memories are filtered through our biases and emotions.
For sure we listen music with our emotions.... Who listen music without them?
Like Scriabin, Beethoven, or Chet Baker, i am proud of my many biases, they are my own history...
Recognizing a complex pattern of sound in an audiophile test is linked to these emotions and biases sure....
What is the problem?
The good news is our taste and biases can be "educated", i was not born with the love of Scriabin or with the love for the Maqams or for the Ragas form...
Music soothes the savage breast. There should be no emotion when listening, other than a certain amount of enjoyment I suppose, I don’t really think of that as emotion, or admiration either, but mostly try listening with a quiet analytical mind, unencumbered by emotion. Try to empty your mind of thought when listening, I know for some of you that will not be very difficult. 😳 Tune into the performance.
mocassin2 said: no electrical engineer would support the Validity of the famous claims about power cords unless he turned out to be a cable manufacturer
My existence disproves your assertion. I had special interconnects for a decade before trying really good speaker wires. Then another decade before trying really good power cords. Definitely kicking myself for waiting. The difference isn’t small, and I’m surprised we don’t have public measurements to prove it, yet.
djones51 said:Aural memory is no more accurate than visual memory. Yes we can associate certain feelings with aural stimuli just as with visual but those memories are filtered through our biases and emotions.
I don’t emember how it sounded or how I felt, but I have pretty good memories of how I characterized the sound of each cable. I’ve had one pair of interconnects for 20 years now, but not in my system any more. Sometimes I’ll try them again and they sound just like I remembered that I thought they had sounded. Unlike many, I’ve found that each cable has a consistent sound regardless of where it’s used.
But if someone else put them in your system, would they sound like they remembered, or if they didn't tell you, would you notice at all?
I am not surprised we don't have public measurements. I wouldn't be surprised by a small reduction in noise floor (which would likely only matter if you already have a really low noise floor source), perhaps even a small reduction in IM/THD with the right set of equipment ... but the question is, when do the diminishing returns reach 0 (at what price point), and are there less expensive ways to accomplish the same thing?
"First of all, power cords do not transmit audio signal - unlike speaker cables that transmitting audio signal." "The power cord soul purpose is to transfer the power from the wall outlet to the equipment". "How is the last few feet of cable can really make a difference?"
A few quotes from the video that are completely misleading.
The late Charles Hanson once said that an amp is basically a modulator of the power supply.
He also has another video that says expensive speaker cables do not make any difference
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