Right, the power cord doesn’t transmit the “audio signal,” the audio waveform as it were. But neither do ANY cables or wires in the system transmit the “audio signal.” 😬
71 responses Add your response
It's almost like he is saying the goal of a power supply is to I-S-O-L-A-T-E the AC from the audio .... His analogy is a bit better when it is all there huh .... Of course if you don't understand what he means, you could come to the conclusion that matches what you want it to say. When you understand how an amplifier works—that you're making a copy of the signal by modulating the power supply—then you see that the power supply directly drives the speaker. Anything that's not right about the power supply is going straight into the speakers. That's why we use such a huge power supply—take off the lid and you'll see that about 90% of the innards are the power supply. We have a giant transformer, stacks of chokes, and all those filter capacitors to regulate the front-end. Compared to the audio circuitry, whether you're looking at board-space or cost, that stuff represents 80-90% of the design. |
This is what Hanson said. As long as the power cord gets the current to the power supply it's doing its job, he's not talking about the freaking cord. It doesn't matter if it costs $1 or $1000. When you understand how an amplifier works—that you're making a copy of the signal by modulating the power supply—then you see that the power supply directly drives the speaker. Anything that's not right about the power supply is going straight into the speakers. That's why we use such a huge power supply—take off the lid and you'll see that about 90% of the innards are the power supply. We have a giant transformer, stacks of chokes, and all those filter capacitors to regulate the front-end. Compared to the audio circuitry, whether you're looking at board-space or cost, that stuff represents 80-90% of the design. |
You could just admit you don't have any real engineering knowledge ... andy21,176 posts07-06-2020 12:46am^^^ OK, whatever, so you're a pretty good at copy and paste. |
I would have argued all day long that cables don’t make that much difference (all cables) until I tried an Audioquest power cable my local guy let me borrow for a few reasons. I was absolutely stunned. I would have never bet, nor at the time did I expect, such a dramatic change. And that was one of the lower end AQ cables. I’ve moved on to others now, but they 100% do make a difference. Baffles me, as current should be current (not) but there it is. |
Why would I not agree with him if he makes a poor analogy? I don't idolize people who made interesting products but didn't contribute to moving the science or art forward. You laughing at my description of modulation shows you had no clue what I was talking about. No worries people who understand this stuff will know exactly what I mean or will at least know enough to ask the right questions. The joke is on you. Understand frequency domain analysis makes designing power supply filters much easier and the results more successful. That's the difference between tinkering and engineering I guess. |
^^^ Well it seems like you're disagreeing with Charles Hanson who is actually a real designer ... sigh ... face palm ... Your description of rectification and modulate makes me laugh so hard. I suppose until you understand the difference between "rectification" and "modulation", there is not need to argue with you since it would be a waste of time. |
You can disagree but I get the impression you are not technically qualified to do any more than "disagree". No they are not "all related". A primary purpose of the power supply in an amplifier is to isolated completely the AC from its impact on the audio signal. Rectification is the electrical function, modulation is the signal processing operation that occurs. The rectification is a signal processing multiplication function, or modulation. Ideally you would only modulate the 60Hz AC with only 60Hz to yield 0Hz = DC, but the modulation function ends up being something more akin to a pulse (rectangular waveform) multiplied by a sine wave, hence you end up with all kinds of harmonics of 120Hz that you need the capacitors to filter out. Ideally you design your power supply with inductive filters to extend that "pulse" and reduce those high frequency harmonics to there is less ripple for the capacitors to filter. andy21,171 posts07-05-2020 10:28pmbut I think we can state pretty unequivocally that the goal of the power supply is to isolate the output (audio) from the input as best as possible.I would disagree with that statement. There is really no "isolation". They are all related. |
Not to offend, but IMO - If you have a $10K amp. properly matched with your pre amp and speakers and it takes a $2K power cord to make it sound good, - I'd ditch that sucker and buy an amp with a decent power supply and save yourself a couple of grand......Jim
oh yeah I agree, ~~$2K power cord~~~ I mean power is power, grant it the 50 cent power cords that come with every amp you purchase (Even Jadis' JA800 @ $100K, I bet has that stinkin Fifty Cent power cord) cut one open, the strand is either 18 or even 20/222 gague,,= justa few hair thin strands,, which might be all it takes to juice my Defy7. who knows. But when you see that 70 lb beast,,sure seems to me 18-22 gague just ain;'t giving the juice. So I went 12 (10 gague was too thick for the copper ends), Now I am confident the Defy is getting all the juice she wants/needs/cares to drink. Why strave the amp on power? DIY power cord is something anyone can make, Very easy mod, in less than 30-45 minutes can be acheived. |
I just finshed 2 DIY power cords, Pure copper ends with Home Depot 12 gague copper strand wire. AWESOME!!. can be seen in my latest YT upload. Type in SEAS Thos. I made 2, one for the big Jadis, 1 for the 220 V cayin cdp, and have another set of ends comming from china, 2-3 months ship time. a spool of 12 gague strand costs $15/50 feet. Just really super cord. Feeds the Jadis and cayin all the juice either can drink up. the basic 50 cent cord that comes with any unit you purchase (I bet Jadis's $100K JA800, comes with,,yep a Fifty cent power cord, cut any one open on your system, its either 18 or 22,22 gague wire,,,a few hair thin strands. Go ahead, try it, you will see. Go to youtube type in SEAS Thor, my latest vid will pop up. Beats any power cord on the market. Copper wire in my wall, copper ends, copper 12 gague stranded, = pure raw unfiltered 100% juice. |
but I think we can state pretty unequivocally that the goal of the power supply is to isolate the output (audio) from the input as best as possible.I would disagree with that statement. There is really no "isolation". They are all related. Technically the diodes in the power supply perform a modulation function on the incoming AC which is why you get DC.I think that is called "rectificatioin", not "modulation". With regard to the "Audioholics" vid, I actually agree with most of what he said on his other videos, but he probably is wrong with respect to power cable. |
That does not make what the late Charles Hanson said an accurate analogy, but I think we can state pretty unequivocally that the goal of the power supply is to isolate the output (audio) from the input as best as possible. One thing you don't want to do it "modulate" the AC into the audio. Technically the diodes in the power supply perform a modulation function on the incoming AC which is why you get DC. |
"First of all, power cords do not transmit audio signal - unlike speaker cables that transmitting audio signal." "The power cord soul purpose is to transfer the power from the wall outlet to the equipment". "How is the last few feet of cable can really make a difference?" A few quotes from the video that are completely misleading. The late Charles Hanson once said that an amp is basically a modulator of the power supply. He also has another video that says expensive speaker cables do not make any difference |
But if someone else put them in your system, would they sound like they remembered, or if they didn't tell you, would you notice at all? I am not surprised we don't have public measurements. I wouldn't be surprised by a small reduction in noise floor (which would likely only matter if you already have a really low noise floor source), perhaps even a small reduction in IM/THD with the right set of equipment ... but the question is, when do the diminishing returns reach 0 (at what price point), and are there less expensive ways to accomplish the same thing? |
mocassin2 said: no electrical engineer would support the Validity of the famous claims about power cords unless he turned out to be a cable manufacturer My existence disproves your assertion. I had special interconnects for a decade before trying really good speaker wires. Then another decade before trying really good power cords. Definitely kicking myself for waiting. The difference isn’t small, and I’m surprised we don’t have public measurements to prove it, yet. djones51 said:Aural memory is no more accurate than visual memory. Yes we can associate certain feelings with aural stimuli just as with visual but those memories are filtered through our biases and emotions. I don’t emember how it sounded or how I felt, but I have pretty good memories of how I characterized the sound of each cable. I’ve had one pair of interconnects for 20 years now, but not in my system any more. Sometimes I’ll try them again and they sound just like I remembered that I thought they had sounded. Unlike many, I’ve found that each cable has a consistent sound regardless of where it’s used. |
Music soothes the savage breast. There should be no emotion when listening, other than a certain amount of enjoyment I suppose, I don’t really think of that as emotion, or admiration either, but mostly try listening with a quiet analytical mind, unencumbered by emotion. Try to empty your mind of thought when listening, I know for some of you that will not be very difficult. 😳 Tune into the performance. |
| Post removed |
isochronism Geoff: .... "is what they wrote on the bathroom walls".... You saw that while listing your name and number, big boy??😄 >>>No, I saw that while listing your name and number, goofball. “For a good time call arachnidism” |
| Post removed |
| Post removed |
For sure we listen music with our emotions.... Who listen music without them? Like Scriabin, Beethoven, or Chet Baker, i am proud of my many biases, they are my own history... Recognizing a complex pattern of sound in an audiophile test is linked to these emotions and biases sure.... What is the problem? The good news is our taste and biases can be "educated", i was not born with the love of Scriabin or with the love for the Maqams or for the Ragas form... |
The memory of many aspect of sound is short term... For example the complex and subtle change in colors and timbre between 2 cables....A melody is long term memory because the sound pattern is linked to kinesthesic association and pre-defined or pre-experienced emotional responses... If i can judge some variations in changes about a piece of electronic components in an audio system, the cause is the memory of my related emotional response to the sound pattern which is long term memory... After a few seconds nobody remember the exact pattern of some complex composite sound but everybody can learn to retrieve his emotional response imprinted in the brain-body.... This is linked to the fact that hearing sound is quantified in hertz and is an ability that decline with age, but listening ability increase with age and are linked to the process of retrieving the emotional response associated with the wished for sound pattern, this emotional response is imprinted in the body -brain memory and available in the long term... This is only my own experience.... This does not go well tough with the simplistic argument of objectivist that deny the hability to remember a past sound experience.... Any audiophile can learn to recognize the emotional response imprinted in his brain-body and associated with a past positive or negative sound experience.... My point is only there to touch the complexity of this subject, i dont pretend to explain anything, only to pointed to the complexity of the matter.... |
+1 Excellent point. Human memory in including audio memory is long-lasting. Otherwise, you wouldn’t be able to remember the words to songs or the music or the dialog from movies. You might even say human beings are the sum total of their memories. Knowledge can be defined as what’s left over after you subtract out everything you forgot from school. |
Gene in that video supposedly reviews audio products, but a high percentage of his videos are about cables. It’s obvious he is biased, and even he himself tried to tell me that I did not hear what I heard in a demo at a dealer. I told him don’t take me for a fool and I won’t take him for one. Every point the cult on his videos made, I dissproved until their last response was that with time switching between cables, the ear can’t remember what it heard within that time. So I asked how does gene then make comparisons between products that he heard weeks , months, or years ago, or does this theory on,y apply to cables when it benefits their argument. Lol. They’re so desperate to debunk this, it’s like their whole world will explode if you blow up their reality bubble. Danny Ritchie posted a video a video in the subject and of course they blew it off. I posted a video showing actual measurements as they’re always talking about, and dead silence since. Seems gene doesn’t know how to do measurements? Maybe only when he can figure out how to use them to “prove” his ideas. And never any videoed showing actual listening, though I wouldn’t trust them to do an unbiased test based on what I’ve seen |
I understand the tendency to compare the audiophile life with the religious life. Both are essentially solitary lives. They're spent contemplating the most abstract art form (music) by constantly swinging from the euphoria of music-driven emotion to the complex analysis of aural data. And then there are specs! I would have freaked out in the 70's if someone had handed me a set of Nordost speaker cables or MIT power lines. |
Grease is required by code where I live on main feed aluminum wire. Other than that I don’t see any reason to make a mess in the box with grease. If it’s an outdoor panel a little dielectric grease might be a good idea to help against corrosion on connections. Good video in the OP though a bit long. |
No comments , science versus beliefs no electrical engineer would support the Validity of the famous claims about power cords unless he turned out to be a cable manufacturer 3000$ power cords, 18,000 $ speaker cables? We audiophiles are the faithful ones. Science is no cure, He is preaching to the wrong crowd |
Or perhaps someone heard about using silver grease on a circuit breaker and decided they would "slather" some on the connection point point to the buss-bar, not knowing that the technique is used to grease the contacts of large breakers, not the connection points of residential breakers .... likely the result also of not knowing the contact resistance of that connection to the buss-bar. I suppose that the parts of a circuit breaker one would slather with a silver grease, might be those that grip the box’s buss bar and Romex, could escape some. |