Good, Affordable Horns?

Old thread, but i have to comment since I bought some KLF 30's a little while back.

Too bad so many people talk bad about klipsch. I have a pair of 2001 model KLF 30's. They have 3 internal braces, and are really solid cabinets(the early models had no braces!!). I did replace the tweeter diaphram to the ti sold by crites and it was a major upgrade. Honestly, I have owned a lot of speakers, but for the money you can get these for is just insane.

The best home theater Ive ever heard, and true full range. They do sound very clean, no harsh sound at all after the ti replacement. They can play near 125db's and I ran a 20hz wav and he speaker drilled it. How many speakers will do all this for well under 1k used? Nothing. In fact I'd take this speaker all the way up until the 3k price point where I would grab used legacy Focus 20/20's. That is a fantastic value!

Again, the ti upgrade for $58 shipped per pair is a absolute must to take these serious as a 2k-3k contender.

There is a pair of Klipsch Heresy HBR speakers up for sale on Ebay by a seller in the next town from me that I might be able to pick up and try for not much. I would try these in my wifes sunroom where the Dynaudio monitors are pictured currently in my system listing.

Questions:

- How much are a pair in good working order and condition worth?

- If I do it, what kind of sound should I expect in comparison to a pair of good Dynaudio monitors? BTW the Dyns are rear ported and bass heavy in that room. Speakers in that room have to stay close to the wall. The Heresys seem like a reasonable design to try there in that they are reputably not bass heavy.

Unsound. I am sorry as well, but i am still done......

Mrdecibel, I tried to respond to your post on the "Why not horns" thread, but the moderators have held it up. Sorry for the confusion. That post was a joke aimed at the title of the thread, not you. I hope you can accept my apologies for unintentionally offending you.

Unsound, it is people like you that I feel do unjust to forums. Read my last post on "Why not horns".

Oxymoron? Just kidding.

Mapman, after reading another post of yours(why not horns), I want to say that the Klipsch Lascala(with my cabinet mods to eliminate any box ringing,as stated by another), is so close to doing so many wonderful things that conveys the true essence of music, that they may be the "as close to perfect" of a horn speaker, particularly at their used prices and reasonable size......again, this is my opinion, having owned a lot of speakers and listening to much much more over the years......thank you....Mrd

Thanks Pauly. They sound fabulous.. Enjoy!

Mapman, I am assuming your question is related to bass augmentation of the rear wall/corners.

My personal experience is that they work best about 5 to 6 feet from the rear wall. They most certainly don’t need a corner or rear wall to augment the bass – I actually used a little poly-fill in the horn to dampen the bass a little. Even now my friends as me where I hide the sub.

I do have a pair of single mouthed KCS BLH speakers based on the Fostex 126E driver (as used in the Ty-Bone) which also seemed to work best about 5 feet from the rear wall, so I am pretty sure that Jeff’s Ty-Bone would not need to be placed in the corners.

I auditioned the Ty-Bone and it was a close call for me to go with the Madisons. The main reasons I went with Madison is that I already had a 126E based speaker and I really needed something a little more efficient.

If your layout does force you to put the speakers close to the rear wall or corners you can easily tune the bass down a little if you feel you need to using poly-fill.

Regards
Paul

pauly,

Read your review.

They sound fabulous. The top/bottom loaded design seems perfect for big soundstage and impact.

Do they work best close or near to the rear wall and out from the corners?

Hi Mapman. The Cardersounds are really great. Highly recommended.

Regards
Paul

You might want to take a look at the quirky collection of horn systems available from ossaudio.com. Be sure to look under closeouts for more affordable options. BTW, I picked up a very nice pair of Zingali horns from these guys a few years back at very reasonable cost.

Good Luck

Marty

For affordable horns, the most obvious answer is Klipsch.

Since 1945, the people at Klipsch have improved the components in their Heritage line products. Including the Klipschorn.

I beg to somewhat disagree: the old Klipschorns used alnico drivers. Alnico is now ruinously expensive (at least, cobalt is) and for the past 30 yrs or so, the driver quality has had=to go down. IMO, etc. Regards

Klipschorns have been in production since 1945. That says a lot right there. And to my knowledge the laws of physics haven't changed since then.

Since 1945, the people at Klipsch have improved the components in their Heritage line products. Including the Klipschorn.

Visit www.Klipsch.com. There are many knowledgeable people there with great setups who wouldn't think of trading them for anything else. I visit there daily.

Also, checkout the LaScala II review in stereophile magazine.

I have heard the "older" LaScalas with tube amplification. They make other speakers sound like toys. Except for other horns.

Something new (Cardersound Tybones):

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1216241460

I've heard several Cain & Cains (including single and double Bens) and several Duevels, but not sure I've heard the Jupiters. Both lines include very nice speakers, different in presentation obviously. I wouldn't recommend an omni for a 12 by 12 room unless they can be positioned well out into the room.

The Cain & Cains do indeed call for tubes; the Duevels not necessarily though come to think of it I've probably only heard them with push-pull tube amps.

In vintage speakers, my suggesion would be either the Altec Model 19 or the Model 14.

Duke
dealer/manufacturer

Hi Mapman,

I have the Cain & Cain double horn IM-Bens, essentially two of those single-Bens stacked together upside down.(if that makes sense)

I have also listened to single Bens. Beautifully made, that's for sure. And the sound, with proper upstream components, is amazing.

But, once again, these are speakers ideally designed to be matched with tubes. Especially low-power(<24 wpc) single-ended triode(SET) amps. To get the best out of them, you'd have to be willing to use something other than your beloved Carver and MF.

Anyone ever heard these "omni-horns" from Duevel?

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1212895210

These look very nice!

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1212516378

Marco is right older heritage line wayyyy better. I had owned a cheapened down Heresy II. I was ticked when I found out what Klipsch had done. No comparison to the older horn speakers. You want the ones with the Alnico (gray can) magnets. You also want the AA crossovers. I own a set of 1980 Lascalla's Alnico mid's but not high. They had already started to take out the Alnico magnet tweeters. Alnico had colbalt in it (hence the c in the word the rest is Aluminium and Nickel. There was a revolt in the African country and that was it. Klipsch never the same. They got rid of the good AA (and A networks) as well and put in cheap crossovers. On that note anyone ever use Mundorf caps silver in oil for Klipsch? (older horns)

yes a very thin piece of wood with almost no internal bracing. My buddy uses Forte II as DJ speakers, they are good for that.
I have had Chorus, KLF 30, KG 3.5, KG 5.5, Hersey, some others I cant think of. KLF-30 were my last pair, got a pair of B&W 602.5 and never looked back.

Again, I find myself baffled (pun intended) given your experience, or seeming lack thereof, with Klipsch Heritage products, on your willingness to comment on them in this context. The only Heritage product you've tried, it seems, is the Heresy. I can tell you with great assurance that the Heresy, KLF-30, and Chorus are a far cry from a Khorn or LaScala or Belle Klipsch, when set up right. I have not heard any of the other modern Klipsch speakers you have owned, nor would I care to as I haven't liked any of the post 80's stuff they've marketed to the mass market. Your comments in that respect do not surprise me. If that's the only experience I'd had with Klipsch I might feel the same way, though I think the Heresy's and Chorus are very good speakers for the money, especially with tube amps.

yes a very thin piece of wood with almost no internal bracing.

You made this comment regarding someones reference to a pair of Forte II speakers. They are 35" floorstanders that weigh in at about 56 lbs each. They're constructed of 3/4" MDF with a real wood veneer outer layer. When I've rapped on the sides of the two pairs I have owned it never occurred to me that they were made of thin wood, or were lightweight materials (the very well reviewed Epos speakers have occured to me this way, yet they are able to produce some pretty good sound in spite of it). They actually occurred to me as pretty solid speakers overall, quite well built, albeit in an economic and utilitarian design. If you look at the 85 real-world reviews at AudioReview.com, where Forte II's maintain a 4.93/5 which is nothing to dismiss, you would note many comments about their solid construction. I don't think they're the last word in that regard, but they're certainly not deserving of the comment you seem to be directing at them. That said, I'd agree that, as I said before, they're more speakers I'd recommend to someone who wanted to rock-out, and yes, they'd make good DJ speakers in that respect (Chorus are Forte's on steroids). They do really well with punchy push-pull tube amps. Typically they go on the used market for $400-600/pair. At that price, set up right, they're pretty hard to beat in many respects, and offer great bang/buck. They are not the last word in refinement, and they are not in the same league as the larger horn speakers in the Heritage line, which Mapman asked about in the first place.

Marco

Shiva,

Sounds right from what I've read the Khorns have a very discrete sweet spot....it still might work for me. We'll see.....

A thing to consider with the K-horns is that the sweet spot is determined by the room dimensions when in the corners.

Jaybo,

The Ohms are keepers. I have Dynaudio Contour 1.3 mk II's in the room where I would consider horns.

I haven't crossed the horn bridge yet, but if I were to, the Dynaudios would probably have to go to help finance them.

The problem is I really like those little monitors and am not anxious to part with them either.

I will probably look to give a pair of Klipschorns or some other good corner horns a fresh listen first somewhere if I get a chance. The nice thing about them is that they could go in the corners of the 12X12 room . It would be nice to not have speakers taking up internal floor space in that little room.

Otherwise, I'm very happy with what I have at present.

keep the ohms

yes a very thin piece of wood with almost no internal bracing. My buddy uses Forte II as DJ speakers, they are good for that.
I have had Chorus, KLF 30, KG 3.5, KG 5.5, Hersey, some others I cant think of. KLF-30 were my last pair, got a pair of B&W 602.5 and never looked back.

I owned a pair of Klipsch Forte II for over 15 years. When I knocked on the cabinet, it appropriately sounded like someone knocking on wood, there was no ringing sound. Kilpsch is a fine speaker.

Marco, thanks so much for the info!

Are all Klipschhorns, save those with custom upgrades, created equal? Any variations in particular to levitate towards or steer away from?

There's plenty to read on the Klipsch forums as far as opinions on this go. The drivers and the crossover have changed over time. I would look for the K55M mid drivers with metal horn bodies (as opposed to later models using plastic for the body - I would also damp the metal horns with damping material such as Dynamat or the equivalent sold cheaper at Parts Express, or with plumbers caulk), and the K77 round-magnet tweeters (as opposed to square magnet). I would actually recommend replacing the tweeters as a high priority (unfortunately this requires some effort as the better drop-in replacements, like the Beyma, are a bigger form-factor. I have heard the Crites drop-in replacement and was not at all impressed - go for the Beyma or Fane). Big, immediate gains can be had there. The crossover would my next target, especially if an older speaker. With the LaScalas the desired stock Xover is the AA model. I'm not sure what the Khorn's might be. I believe the speakers that conform to those components I've mentioned were late 60's to early 80's. Obviously if you can find a pair locally you will save some large coin and headache on the shipping.

Marco

From what I have learned through they years may people like the older Klipschorns, the ones from the 50's 60's, with some crossover upgrades. But I'm sure you will get all kinds of answers on that one.

I've examined some of the options suggested and, if I were to do this, I think I would go the classic/vintage route perhaps with used Klipschorns in the corner in the 12X12 foot room where the Dynaudios are today.

I am still concerned though about what to expect low-end-wise in this small, square room.

Is anybody brave enough to provide a confident vision of what I might expect sonically out of a pair of corner Klipschhorns in a typical 12X12 room, with a dens carpet covered concrete floor, drywall and average ceiling height?

Also, Klipschorns have been around for a while with some slight variation over the years in the standard configuration. Are all Klipschhorns, save those with custom upgrades, created equal? Any variations in particular to levitate towards or steer away from?

My horns were in a room 11' x 12' driven by a Musical Fidelity 250w power amp with a DNM 3c pre amp which has the most gain on the left/right volume pots that I have ever had the pleasure of twiddling. Denis Moorecroft (DNM) designed the pre amps to operate that way. The volume pots went from 0-12 (from my memory) numerically but pot set on #1 was loud enough that you didn't need to go any louder, I just used to literally touch the volume pot to fill the room nicely with sound.
If you can do check out a pair of Oris 150's they are seriously good for the $$$$$ they do not need a sub, IMO.

wwwrecords, the near-field monitor idea has always had appeal for me in this room. I'll look into it.

Jax2, I'm definitely looking for some "horn magic" in order to replace what I have. The SET/horn combo would seem to be the place to land eventually from what I've read and heard.

I've done Ok in the 12X12 rooms with both my Dynaudio monitors and the smaller Ohm Walshes. The only thing I don't like is that I have to place them several feet out from the walls in an already small room to get the results I am used to. I would seriously consider a local pair of used khorns maybe if I felt confident about how to handle the room acoustics but I guess I'm not quite there yet.

Mapman - Boa2 had his Khorns in a relatively small room and they sounded great there. I'd say the really difficult aspect of using the room you describe is the square ratio which is one of the worst proportions for a good listening room. You may have to address that with room treatment no matter what speakers you put in there (assuming you have not already). You can search the archives as I think this has come up before in various threads.

I think you need to consider some of the other excellent offerings from Klipsch that use woofers for the lows.

All the ones mentioned here do use woofers for the lows. I think what you meant was forward firing woofers, as opposed to woofers used within a folded horn. In the Klipsch Heritage line the forward firing options are limited to the Cornwall and Heresy. The latter is not a bad little speaker either, but you wouldn't be getting a full dose of horn magic IMO, and the bass response is quite limited as well. The Forte and Chorus also have forward firing woofers (as well as a passive rear-firing woofer in the back). Again, nice speakers (more for rockin' IMO), and there you would get all the bass you'll need, but if you want a full heaping helping of Klipsch horn magic, my recommendation would be the larger horns in the Heritage line (Khorn, LaScala, Belle).

Marco

Lots of talk about Klipsch, but you should also consider Altec 604 duplex. These are nearfield monitors and work very well in a small room. Good electronics are a must. 40hz is there. Just thought you REALLY should give these some consideration. Some of the best midrange available IMO.

Good luck and I hope you find what suits you.

Hey Mapman,Just because its a horn doesnt mean they only crank.I have a giant horn system in my office it uses 8-15in woofers in front horns with comp mid and tweeter horns. I can sit as close as 6ft from it, loudspeaker can play at a very low level or crazy loud whatever you want. Also have run them on amps from 200watts class a SS to 10 watt SET tube. If its too loud just turn your volume control down like you would do with any loudspeakers. So dont be afraid of horns they dont bite.

In a 12' x 12' I would be perfectly happy with KLF-20's or Chorus II's and a SET or PP tube amp.

I think you need to consider some of the other excellent offerings from Klipsch that use woofers for the lows.

You really need to personally audition a good SET or PP tube amp with some Klipsch or other horn speakers.

Another thing I am afraid of is that any horn loaded design will blast me out of the room right out of the gate with my current amp, a 150 w/ch SS Musical Fidelity.

This horn thing is starting to sound more and more like not such a good idea in my case.....

I've gotten some good leads from this thread. Thanks.

My concern with most of the horn loaded designs I've seen in my price range will be bass. I don't think I would be happy replacing any speaker pairs I have with anything horn loaded that did not extend down at least in to the 40hz range.

My room is only 12'X 12'. Corner horns, like a pair of used Klipschorns could work nicely and even benefit me otherwise by opening up more floor space, but I'm wondering if the room is too small for even the Khorn bass design to meet my needs?

Any thoughts on a pair of Khorns in a smaller 12X12 room?

Pi Speakers. They have quite a following and are very reasonably priced. Can be had for a steal if you buy the kit.

The George Wright AU-1000 preamp I own is actually the same preamp Boa2 once owned. He sold
it to a another guy. And I bought it from him.

Well, I can still say with great confidence that the LaScalas drop off severely just under 50hz. If you consider that adequate bass, then so be it, that's all you need! The LaScalas Howard owned that you mentioned were purchased from me, as was the preamp you now own (great little pre btw). Howard's an old friend of mine. He now owns a pair of Khorns. Last time I was there he was using a high powered McIntosh SS amp to push them, though I think he's gone back to SET lately. If you really want to find out how low they go, buy yourself a sound pressure meter from Radio Shack and take some measurements. That's how I came to these conclusions. I've done it in several rooms with two pairs of LaScalas and various amps and preamps, including the very one you now own. If your results are vastly different I'd like to know your secret(s). Cool beans though...I'm glad you're getting the lows you want from them - they're great speakers.

Yep, crossovers and tweeters are the first things I'd change..oh, and the zip cord that passes for internal wires.

Marco

I totally agree with Vman71 about the excellent sonic results acheived by upgrading Klipsch crossovers.

I’ll comment as a Klipsch owner for the past 8 years, specifically the Chorus II’s and their successor, the KLF Legend Series (KLF-20’s). Both of these models can be bought for under $1K on the used market. I used them for a few years without modified/upgraded xover networks and for the past 4 or so years with modified/upgraded xovers.

I’m extremely happy with the overall sound quality of these speakers and can confidently say, these speakers will not be changed for other speakers. They heavily benefit from proper pairing with equipment. Tubes are the ideal match for Klipsch speakers. I’ve used my Klipsch speaker with an Eico HF-81 and currently with a restored H.H. Scott 222C and John Hogan integrated SET amp. I will also say that my Stan Warren custom built chip amp is amazing with my Klipsch speakers. One SS amp that worked very well with my Klipsch was Plinius.

I love the amazing dynamics of the horns and my KLF-20’s have plenty of low end slam along with extended highs. The Chorus II’s are amazing speakers also with a slightly better midrange than the KLF-20’s but slightly less low end slam.

It took me one evening to upgrade the Chorus II xover networks. The difference after modifying/upgrading the xover networks is incredible. You have not heard how good Klipsch speakers are until you have at least modified/upgraded the xover networks. I also modified/upgraded all my other Klipsch speakers and will do so with any future Klipsch speakers I own. Actually, I will not own any speakers that I haven’t upgraded the xover networks. The improvement in sound across the entire spectrum is too much to miss out on.

Jax2, I don't toally diasagree with you about the low end bass response of the LaScala. But the amp/preamp combo I am running is more than adequate for me. It is comparable to my Cornwalls running with my SET amps.

Here is a response from Boa2 to a thread on Preamps...no bass or treble controls? 9-16-2005.
He owned LaScalas with a sub back then & running them with Wright 2A3 SET monoblock amps.

We have a George wright AU-1000 (a/k/a AG-1000 with a gold face plate) that has tone controls. With a slight turn of the bass knob, we"re able to get enough bottom end even with his 4 Watt SET mono blocks that we sold our sub. As others have suggested, recordings (and rooms) are not perfect. Have you heard Wilco's "A Ghost is Born"? When listening to that CD, I actually have to turn the bass down.

The Llano Phoenix CAS 300/VA2 mosfet/tube hybrid power amp is 300 watts x 2 @ 8 ohms. Which is way over kill powering my Industrial LaScalas. But the Llano amp/George Wright preamp combo sounds excellent to my ears. The Llano Phoenix amp shares many of the same attributes as my Mcintosh
MC 7150 power amp in that it is a smooth sounding amp. But the Llano has much deeper bass response and smooth more extended treble. Llano amps were known to have low end bass response like Krell
amps.

The George Wright AU-1000 preamp I own is actually the same preamp Boa2 once owned. He sold
it to a another guy. And I bought it from him.

I am going to tout my own Klipsch speakers, which are the Epic CF3's. They consist of 2 10" drivers, with a big horn between them. They are not bright at all, play tight bass down into the mid 20hz range. With their 100db sensitivity, they have a full bodied sound even at low volume and because they can also handle 250 watts continous, with 1000 watt peaks, they give you uncompressed concert slam when you crank them up.

You are talking about Klipschorns I am talking about Klipsch in general. The heritage series is constructed a little better than all of there other stuff.

Mapman started the thread by asking specifically about LaScalas which are part of the Heritage series. Your immediate response was to criticize the construction of Klipsch speakers so I assumed you were referring to the same speakers that the post addressed. If you responded directly by addressing a criticism at Klipsch in general, I'm not understanding how that applies to what the post was asking about. Which Klipsch speakers have you tried and with what elecronics? Which ones ring like a bell, er, like thin wood?

I can think of a few electronics that people still rebuild or you can still by as new that are 50-60+ years old. Dynaco, McIntosh, Eico...ect

Speakers, JBL, Klipsch, Altec...ect

Which one of those you companies you mention has a product that has been in continuous production for 60 years and is still produced to this day? You are talking about stuff folks rebuild, or that has significantly changed over the time. That is not the same as KHorns. We are talking about a product that a major manufacturer has seen fit to continue to produce for 60 years continuously with only minor changes over that time period. A product in a consumer tech market which still enjoys great success amidst the competition of products that take advantage of all kinds of advances in technology. It is not a re-issue, or an anniversary model, or a special edition. Again, I don't think it's perfect, but it's an extraordinary achievement. Also, I'm not arguing that the Heritage series is constructed better or worse than other speakers. I have said what I thought of their construction, and it is pretty much in line with what you've said - they are deliberately utilitarian in design and could benefit from additional internal bracing. As far as Klipsch, the company in general, is concerned, the Heritage series is the only speakers I've heard from them, other than perhaps the Forte's and Chorus, that are worth listening to IMO. I have not heard that new $13K Klipsch P-39F Palladium they recently announced though.

Mapman - I've not heard Carver + Klipsch Heritage, but my guess would be you could do better with tubes. The downside of experimenting in the direction of trying a LaScala, or KHorn are that they are large and difficult to move around, and may be more of challenge to turn over should you not choose to keep them. Cornwalls may be a bit more manageable, but not by much. It's a major commitment, in other words, in spite of the relatively reasonable price. I wonder if you could find a local A'goner who has a good horn setup that you could listen to...that or a dealer or one of the shows could give you some sense of what, in very broad terms, to expect. In general, the advantages of horns is that they are lightening fast and very dynamic. They can be champions at soundstaging, and in my experience have an almost airy quality to their presentation. On the downside they can be very forward sounding, and even aggressive with the wrong amp (forward is otherwise not necessarily a bad thing). Some folks have described the sound they get from them as "shouty" like someone speaking through cupped hands. I have not had that experience of them other than poor combinations with SS amps. They are also very efficient in general, so require less power and can be driven by lower powered triode and single-ended amps.

Marco

Jax2,

HAving lived with Carver tube simulation technology for many years alongside the solid state, I'd say that it effectively "takes the edge off" the sound, or smooths it out dynamically perhaps as tubes might. It would probably help with horns, but I suspect I'd feel like I'd still be missing something much more enjoyable.

Lonestarblues reminded me that I have heard one good Klipsch/SS combination where the synergy was good: A pair of KHorns with an SS McIntosh amp (can't recall which)...so I do believe it can work, but synergy is critical, and if you go wrong with SS the sound can drive you out of the room looking for the Advil (which seems to be Krellm7's experience of them). They are much more tube-friendly, than with SS amps. I've heard Carver stuff, but never really thought they sounded remotely like tubes in the various systems I've heard them in. I haven't heard your system, of course. I'd strongly disagree with Lonestarblues' opinion that there might be no lack of bass using LaScalas. In my experience with them, which is is pretty extensive (two pairs, many modifications and comparisons, many different amps, various sized rooms), no matter what you do, short of adding a sub, those speakers will drop off sharply around 50hz or just below. You can squeeze a bit more out of them via room placement (corners), but neither system components nor driver replacement will get you much lower. If that's as low as you like your bass to go, then I guess there'd be no lack of bass. Don't get me wrong, I love the Scalas. Their magic midrange does make up for any lacking downstairs. But if you compare them to KlipschHorns (in corners) or Cornwalls you will see just how much bass they are missing. I don't think they do bass "badly", but if you are counting on real-world bass I would look to other choices.

You are talking about Klipschorns I am talking about Klipsch in general. The heritage series is constructed a little better than all of there other stuff.

OK, they ring or resonate like a thin piece of wood, not a bell. They are still in production because people still buy them. People still buy them because they still like them & they bring back that sound people heard as a kid.

Klipschorns can sound very good in the right room with the right equipment, and as long as you have good corners and proper distance between them.

I can think of a few electronics that people still rebuild or you can still by as new that are 50-60+ years old. Dynaco, McIntosh, Eico...ect

Speakers, JBL, Klipsch, Altec...ect

Seriously, the appeal of a horn loaded speaker to me are those things that make them distinct and unique, ie the design and nature of the midrange. I don't necessarily need a pair of horns that best my Ohms or other speakers, as long as they do not do the other things badly and infringe upon the strengths.