It can matter on some systems. Solid copper is preferable IME.
Gold coated brass speaker spades
Question for the forum.
Whats the low down on brass speaker spades and bananas?
I recently demoed some very nice sounding speaker cables from a reputable manufacturer and found they used gold plated brass connectors. From what I have read in these forums, copper is the preferred base metal. Does it really matter?
What to do?
49 responses Add your response
This is what matters. It all comes down to budget- whether the manufacturer feels it is worth it to spend another $100 to construct those cables with better sounding copper connectors, or to leave the cables $100 cheaper and pass the savings on to the consumer, make the price more attractive, in the hopes that more of them will sell. Honda doesn’t automatically supply $3000 of real leather seats and $2000 18" alloy wheels on a base model $25,000 Honda Civic and make the price $30,000 because it may make the car 1% "more preferred". Half of the people don’t notice, don’t care, and would rather save the $5000. Some manufacturers, maybe the same one who made the cable you are listening to, design and build cost no object cables, with no expense spared, and of course these cost many thousands more, and would address the last several percent of increased performance, including rhodium/gold coated solid high purity copper connectors. Question though: have you addressed this in regards to all other aspects of your system? All your other cables connectors are gold/rhodium coated solid copper, including your outlet? Then no, it may not matter. |
There are no set rules on this sort of thing. There are many good sounding and bad sounding examples of all sort of connectors and the binding posts. A speaker builder in my area who makes custom amps and speakers, some ultra expensive, looks for some very old (and cheap looking) binding posts that are made, I believe, of brass. They turn out to be not that cheap because the community of small builders know about them and bid up the price. He has some customers insist on better looking binding posts, in which case he uses the likes of WBT silver binding posts. |
The cables are made by Tara Labs. The issue in my mind is that similarly priced cables have copper based connectors. All of my other cables are gold plated copper. I get they may be trying to create some value by using cheaper connectors, but part of me wonders if they are cutting corners. So, would their nice sounding cables sound even nicer with better connectors. Perhaps I am over thinking things. Perhaps I have read too many posts on audiogon. |
@roxy54 I’m really NOT surprised. They took smart Chinese approach of making materials cheaper. Consumers would not notice a thing like they would not notice any difference between pure silver in Siltech and brass in the fake Siltech as long as the outside looks same. When Alibaba, Aliexpress wasn't part of ebay they were all overwhelmed with fake Siltech, Harmonic Tech and other super high-priced wires made with cheap brass and most of the fools didn't notice anything till they took them apart. |
It’s how they sound to you in the end. If the Tara cables sound better than comparably priced competitors with copper connectors I say go with Tara regardless. Still surprising they’d use brass though because copper spades just can’t add all that much to the final price. Not a good choice for a company like Tara IMHO. |
what we really know that we are paying for brand namez and not much for product. the way around is to purchase bulk wires for cheap from sites such as newark.com or digikey.com and build own speaker wire with pure copper. even if you decide to purchase silver wires, it will still be cheaper than purchasing terminated cable with brass wire. |
What @larryi said old school brass binding posts sound fantastic particularly in the bass regions. |
Well, of course we know copper does sound better as it has less resistance, only bettered by silver, and Shunyata’s top cables are all a blend of silver and Ohno copper. In regards to the outlets a little research shows that pure copper does not enough ductility, or the ability to bend repeatedly without cracking. Due to the movement inherent in the outlet prongs when inserting and removing cables there isn’t a choice, so the added zinc to the copper to make it brass is a necessity. At least in the design of the Hubbel outlet shown. Sound considerations aside, it would not be good if people’s outlets began to break, and then one gets electricity arcing. However, Furutech have made their own outlet which does have solid copper contacts and their own stainless spring clamping system, so there is no bending on any solid copper prongs. I have this GTX-R- NCF outlet and like that it doesn’t mar the coating from your expensive power cords. But since it is solid copper it needs to be coated with something to prevent oxidation- Furutech offers a choice of gold or rhodium. GTX breakdown Unknown to me if Caelin ever experimented with these outlets or approached Furutech instead of Hubbel to make his outlets? But again he and his team have of course listened to his outlets and if they determine they are fine, that gives me enough confidence to use them. I have heard him state he didn’t like rhodium. Actually I have just ordered my first Shunyata power cord, and I will see if the nickel coating on his plug gets along with the rhodium in my GTX outlet. (Again, the coating is just microns thick, 99% of the electrical energy simply travels though the base metal, and I am sure I won’t notice the difference
|
Certain assumptions are being used to justify finding brass or any other material inferior without the assumptions being supported. Is conductivity the deciding factor in what sounds good? Is it necessarily the case that a material that that reduces conductivity or in any other aspect alters the signal necessarily bad for the sound? So much is being made about the particular connector's, or for that matter the cable itself, physical properties under the assumption that there is a set of properties which, if optimized, will always result in superior sound. It does not work that way because each system is different and each listener has sound preferences that may mean different alterations to the signal will either be desired or deleterious. Does it matter if Tara uses gold plated brass? Yes and no. If it alters the sound as compared to some other choice, it matters but one cannot say for the better or worse on a universal basis. If it doesn't alter the sound in any system, then cheaper or more durable is desirable. i don't care what material is used for the connectors in my cable (Audio Note silver wire); I care about the sound of the cable as a whole. I looked it up because of this thread and found out that my banana terminated cables utilize silver over what I will call "mystery metal" (the description is only that it is non-magnetic material) for the connectors. |
It states this under their FPX outlets, but it is not underneath the GTX outlets, so not sure.... SPECIFICATIONSAll non-magnetic α (Alpha) Phosphor bronze Conductor |
GTX-D specs: • Rhodium or gold-plated α (Alpha) Pure Copper Conductor (0.8mm) • Nonmagnetic stainless conductor spring system • Body material: Nylon/fiberglass with piezo ceramic and carbon damping material • Cover material: Polycarbonate • Parts set with nonmagnetic 2.0mm-thick stainless brace plate • Specified for wire diameters of 4mm (set screw) • Dimensions: 104.0 mm (L) x 47.2 mm (W) x 28.0 mm (H) • Total attention to detail and build quality extends right down to a specially designed patent-pending conductor pressure plate (see below) that increases contact area • Furutech spade terminal FP-205 recommended for 10 AWG wire |
Confirmed, it actually states that at the beginning of the second video I posted above, and one can see the UL logo on the front of the plug. I don't suppose you have tried the Shunyata one? |
mclinnguy I did not compare the Shunyata receptacle. I tested several models of Furutechs, Oyaides, Pangea (which I already owned), Cardas, Synergistic, Acme Audio Labs, Levitons, and maybe some others......testing was just over a year long. The Acme Audio Labs silver Cryo and CFC, were surprisingly good at their modest $60 price......revealing, but not as much as the rhodium Furutechs which take forever to break in |
@czarivey You’re kidding, right? That’s just an absurd statement, and nobody makes cables out of brass wire for a reason. |
Looks like everything happens for a reason and no matter how absurd it is sounding to you, please check the past how Chinese retailers were selling fake Harmonic Tech, Nordost, Siltech and other 4...5- figure priced wires for around $100 per pair and finding lots of success, because even if science can be misleading or biased, the mathematics cannot. The material inside pretty sleeves when opened turned out to be neither OFC nor Silver, but the discussed cheap brass! |
@czarivey That don’t mean squat. Anyone listening to the same cable one made of brass and the other made of OFC, OCC, or silver would surely hear the difference. Stealing the look/geometry (if they even bother to get that right) only gets you so far.
|
@czarivey time to get educated me thinks. https://blog.eaglegroupmanufacturers.com/metal-properties-conductivity The best materials for audio cables depend on the desired sound quality, budget, and application. The most important considerations are the conductor material and the insulation material: |
czarivey "The material inside pretty sleeves when opened turned out to be neither OFC nor Silver, but the discussed cheap brass!" - I would like you read more about this, would you please provide a link. |
@tkrtrb125 +1
I’ve often wondered about this. I’ve got both silver and copper and have experienced a range with both. The thing I wonder is if copper is perceived to be more “balanced” because equipment may be more commonly voiced by designers using copper cables thus making silver sound bright by comparison. The flip side would be, if equipment was designed more with silver cables would copper then sound a little less balanced and a little overly warm or veiled? Probably a question for the ages, but as always system synergy and personal taste should be the final arbiter always regardless of metallurgy. But brass? Not when copper and even some silver cables can be had for (relatively) reasonable prices, which makes brass a non starter in my book. |
@soix you make a valid point about copper and its wide use across all components . I to have some silver in my system (cables digital) but never would think of brass for any function, connectors etc. |
All points about Cooper vs. Silver vs. other metals are true and I'm not arguing that. Brass wires inside Chinese fake cables instead of OFC or Silver is also true. These truths do also reveal that for audio applications the differences will be so small that most of consumers won't notice and purchase fakes with happiness. Right now you won't be able to find any brands of hi-end audio wires from neither DHGate nor Alibaba/Aliexpress. Before they were part of ebay everything was possible. Fake wires were made and sold to public and you can only dream about if they have silver or OFC.
|
@czarivey No, it does not reveal any such thing. Unless someone compared the Chinese knockoffs directly to the legit version you cannot infer the differences were “so small” — that’s just unfounded supposition on your part. Not saying people weren’t possibly happy with whatever results they got with the fakes, but failing a direct comparison that doesn’t tell anything definitive about how close they sound to the real thing. |
@soix +1 |
A local dealer had an unhappy customer come in with cables the customer bought on the internet which he thought sounded crappy. I heard it and it was indeed crappy, particularly surprising because the cables were supposedly ultra expensive Audio Note Sogon cables. When the terminations were cut off to look at the actual wire, it was NOT the right internals. The wires were pretty nice looking fakes with genuine Audio Note spades on them. Were they Chinese fakes? I don't know the origin, but, Chinese fakes are getting impressively hard to detect visually. I saw a line stage supposedly made with Western Electric parts where all the parts turned out to be fake (it did not sound good). A dealer/builder I know was looking for some Western Electric input transformers to make a high-end clone of their 133 amp. A Chinese source was offering a pair for $10,000. This is the going rate of those transformers. It may have been genuine, but, it may just be the case of the fakers getting wise--don't sell your fakes at deep discount, that only raises suspicions; sell it at the going rate and make even more money. I've seen fake tubes, fake cables, fake capacitors, fake transformers, and stuff to help you make your own fakes, like company decals. |
There's nothing but logic equations there -- no science at all Anyone who is able to compare size to size is able to see what makes difference even without listening and comparing. I didn't fall onto pretty Chinese fakes given the fact that the only purpose for those ultra high-end wires for cheap was for the creative scammer to purchase and resell as real. For me even those tempting deals of around $100...200 per pair of Siltech were too pricey and unnecessary. I use mostly studio grade wires that are a lot cheaper than home-audiophile grades and a lot more sincere. I'ts been over decade or more when Alibaba/Aliexpress and DHGate became a part of ebay, but before that all of those fakes were finding a lot more success than failure so that the quantity of "trained" audiophiles that would notice difference is substantially smaller ones who would not find any differences. You are matching too much to yourself and you gotta know that there are far more people than just you. |
Well, there it is. Why pay anymore when $20 cables conduct electricity perfectly fine, and I hear stuff emitting from the speakers? If it is good enough to make the light bulb glow, it is good enough for me.
|
@czarivey Your last post is telling and not even worthy of a response. Suffice it to say your opinion is in the vast minority here, but you enjoy your Mogami and Kimber 8tc cables and whatever power cords — the rest of us know (and hear) better. |
to me cable that is over a kilobuck per meter or foot is similar scam as Chinese fake equivalents. Nordost Odin is another example of scam. @roxy54 I was talking about Chinese fake equivalents to most high-priced audio wires/cables. While original Nordost Odin was around $8k per meter the Chinese equivalent were sold somewhere in $200 range. It looks like I'm respecting even those who made living on selling fakes, because scamming the scammer is perfectly normal.
|
@mpomerantz technically direct cable connection to terminal, assuming soldered or crimped end of wire was done, is the best. major speaker cable impact on sound is cable resistance (longer cable - higher impact), loop inductance (closer cable phases are, lesser inductance it has), and capacitance (good amps are less sensitive to it). Additional cable terminal, such as spades or banana plug, does not increase total amp-spkr parasitics much (~0.01% +). the best spk cable improvement can be shortening cable, using amp-mono-blocks closer as possible to spkr etc. I found Kimber 8TC cable (measured and listened to, very low resistance and inductance) the best for my 15ft spkr cabe setup. |
)