@fsonicsmith
All good suggestions…. there maybe options that might not require altering the flooring but could still offer some isolation from vibrations. I do have future plans to replace the carpet with wood flooring, may be at that time I could possibly address the ‘bracing’ underneath my rack. As far replacing the speakers and subs, that’s not going to happen. I am considering all cost-effective isolation platforms or feet under the 301 to see if that helps mitigate the issues.
I know my room and speakers /subs are not the problem based on my experience with fabulous SME 15AV TT. The 15AV was rock solid and completely immune to any of these feedback/isolation issues.
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I know the SPH Bearing will and it does create very noticeable improvement over the standard bearing when compared on GL 75 ID TT's.
Other make good reports about the other TT's these are produced for.
One other method is to have the 301 Original Bearing produced to have not Metal on Metal Contact possible to occur, by having Thermoplastic Parts produced to create the tightest of tolerance interfaces between Spindle Bush and Spindle, as well as having the Thrust Pad produced from Thermoplastic as well.
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Further, Matthew of AudioGrail sells a plinth. Only one 12" arm but you might reach out for advice.
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You might check SPH bearing. Word has it that it sounds better than most others. I use 2 of them.
Have you tried springs under the plinth? Test with Nobsound online for $35. I use them.
Look for my posts on both.
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Let's back up. Which platter are you presently using? I am a huge proponent of sourcing the very best after-market bearing available and have done that with both. my hot-rodded Thorens TD124 and Garrard 301 but I also sourced heavier platters than the OEM on each. On the other hand, there is something magical about the OEM lightweight 301 platter and OEM bearing, particularly the grease bearing. Considerations boil down to the STYLE/character of the sound you seek. The heavy duty precision bearing and heavier platter produce a more neutral and arguable "cleaner, quieter" sound, the OEM platter and bearing provide a more propulsive and dynamic sound that may be noisier, but is more fun.
Let's go big picture though; neither the upgraded bearing nor the custom plinth is going to solve your problem. You have a feedback/isolation problem. Your loudspeakers are essentially overpowering your tonearm/cartridge/record interface. If you have a handy friend (or an available contractor) please try my relatively easy-to-implement trick of bracing the floor joists under your equipment rack from underneath. This can be done on a temporary trial basis. Try 4x4 vertical posts wedged as tightly as possible without unleveling your suspending floor against the joists. That said, this will not eliminate airborne energy overpowering your turntable isolation. At some point repositioning your loudspeakers and even considering a different loudspeaker (and subs) may be required. Many of us fixate on the loudspeaker when putting our systems together and end up with a speaker that is simply too large and emits too much energy for the owner's listening room. Then "we" wonder why the sound does not match ones expectations. We can call this the "Magico Syndrome". For example, in my relatively small room my Devore O/93's are perfect and their bigger brother, the O/96's, as much as I love them more in a vacuum (larger room) would do the very same thing in my room as you are currently experiencing.
But yes, I would never have chosen a DAS plinth. Greg Metz provided me with one and mounted my 301 in it when I bought my NOS 301 from him. I could not get rid of it fast enough. Luckily for me, Russ Collinson of Layers of Beauty was still building incredible custom plinths at the time. And please, try Stillpoints when you upgrade your plinth. You might try contacting Steve Dobbins of Xact Audio for advice. He offers his own design of 301 platter and plinth and is a huge advocate of Stillpoints for 301's.
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The individual who I reference for materials worthwhile considering for Plinth Builds does the materials testing.
This same individual has made it known that a Modeller Putty known as Newplast, is excellent as a substance for improving the Damping Properties of materials in use that don't measure with an attractive Damping Factor.
A treatment with this within the rebated area of the Plinth and concealed underneath might be the way to extract more of what is being looked for.
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“How does 301 at this point compare with the SME”
@mdalton
Too early to make any assessments cause 301 is not completely dialed in. But I do see myself enjoying 301, for a very long time. SME 15AV is a great sounding TT, much quieter and robust than the 301 on hand. And it has lot to do with the plinth. If there is a weak link, it’s the plinth. I cannot recommend DAS Acoustics for 301/401 plinths to anyone…the interactions, quality of build fell way short of my expectations.
Koetsu deal fell through so hopefully there will be another opportunity to own a Koetsu in near future.
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@lalitk
good development. How does 301 at this point compare with the SME when you had it in your system? And whatever happened to the Koetsu that you purchased?
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My local dealer puts 301, 401 and Thorens 124 tables into ultra expensive systems. He likes the Ortofon tonearms with these tables. This past weekend, he was showing off a extremely pretty to look at 301 in a gloss veneer plinth and a brand new Tri-planar tonearm. That is the one quite expensive arm he likes and a customer was interested in it. When Koetsu folded up shop, he bought as many cartridges that were still available that he could find. For this table, he used an Urushi Vermillion from his remaining stock. The system with this table in it sounded fantastic--bold, big and lush.
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“Your problem though is one of isolation”
@fsonicsmith
I agree. I spent the weekend reconfiguring my system by switching out to a much heavier rack and pulled out couple of digital components that weren’t in the system due to limited rack space. I end up dusting some of my favorite CD’s..lol!
Back to TT, things improved greatly but not to a degree where everything is perfect. Thankfully, no external feedback from subs, internal vibrations are tamed 95%. IsoAcoustic pucks removed and TT is back on Finite Elemente slim cerabase temporarily until I find a better solution. I have uploaded new pics in my virtual system.
https://www.audiogon.com/systems/11092
It’s a work-in-progress, still long ways to be on par with my Streaming setup. Thanks again for your invaluable advice.
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There is one advantage of repositioning equipment, even if only Temporary.
Such an investigation should cost very little monies and now the TT is set up, the only treatment for the TT following relocation, should be to re-level the Platter.
There is lots that can be learned about looking out for the needs of the styli, when used for the role in the groove to produce mechanical energy to be converted to a a very low voltage electrical current.
The Styli will receive ambient energies, of which certain types are able to adulterate the energy generated by the groove modulation.
As the methodologies for reducing transferred energies to the Styli improves, the end result is the perception of the end sound increasing in presenting as tidied up sound improves.
Platter Mats also fall in to the considerations for control measures.
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Sorry for being vague…the main issue is chassis vibrations. As I increase volume, the vibrations in plinth increases causing stylus to jump up or skip grooves.
This helps tremendously. So without a doubt your problem is not the motor, not the plinth, and a PSU is not the immediate answer.
The mere fact that a dealer set it up means little in my book. The Reed 3P is at once both easy and tricky to set up. AS in particular can easily be set way too high. Back the magnetic AS quite a way (reducing it) and increase your VTF to the max within your cartridge specs. See if that helps a little. Make sure your deck is level and rock solid in terms of how it sits on your rack (not subject to rocking).
Your problem though is one of isolation. One way or another your Garrard is set up in an excited/lively zone of your room. It could be in a room node, it could be over a particular springy portion of your floor or both. Bracing your floor joists from underneath ought to be considered. A massive, rigid, equipment stand positioned away from any room node and positioned over a solid portion of your suspended floor is extremely likely to eliminate your problem. Imho, IsoAcoustic pucks are not the proper form of isolation under your plinth. You want to drain energy, not absorb it. Once your rack/stand is ideally situated, mount Stillpoints or similar to the underside of your plinth.
In the the real world where a bunch of equipment is already positioned-I looked at your virtual system-most of us don't have the energy (pun) to reconfigure the room just to accommodate a turntable. So I realize my implementing my recommendations are easier said than done.
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@mdalton
I honestly don’t recall, I must have gone through half a dozen configuration. I can’t check again until everything is put back together, hopefully by tomorrow.
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@lalitk
Just for clarification, do the issues disappear entirely if you turn subwoofer(s) off?
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A Friend who is a through and through ID TT user has their Audio System Racks on a suspended floor. There has been various methods investigated / tried out to improve the TT from the Floor Up.
The Audio System Rack is mounted on a Sandbox Plinth, which I know has been claimed to have been substantial in improving things and is very little expense to put in place, even if made look aesthetically pleasing.
A simple method such as this is worthwhile investigating.
The alternative Rack being referred to being 3 x the Width, could have Pedestal Sand Boxes produced to be able to take the support legs of the Rack only?
My own investigations and trials for mounting the Audio System Rack. Has Three Tiers of different isolation materials used before the Steel Plate Base Plinths are mounted on these. The racks are seated on the Steel Plates with a separating footer. Additionally, the Racks are rigidly braced. The TT is seated on a Sub-Plinth Assembly with Solid Tech Feet of Silence as the Footer in direct contact with the TT.
1, The Sub-Plinth Assembly under the Rack does create a discernible difference to the Rack being in direct contact with the floor. Speaker users are knowing about the benefits if using various methods to interface with the floor on any floor type.
2, Rigidly Bracing a Rack is in my experience very discernible as the betterment to the Rack left free standing. My Racks are braced together (my method not so aesthetically pleasing), as well as being rigidly coupled to the wall structure. Assessing this is easy as both are easy to release and A/B compare, both coupling methods in my set up have been very beneficial.
3, Producing support structures under the TT can be undertaken at a variety of costs and even more permutations for Plinth Materials and Footers used as separators and then the TT’s Mounting Feet. Working with the various options of permutations is where the real magic occurs. To really get the benefits it is best when done as the last exercise of the three treatments.
There is not a ubiquitous methodology for this one, I have loaned out many materials to be used on other systems, as the Mount for the Source, the differing environments and methods used to support the Rack, as well as the Rack Type creates very different outcomes of how a material is assessed for its impact on the end sound. Perseverance wins through.
If any of the other suggestions offered by other contributors for the TT are followed up on. The benefits that are yet to be discovered will be even further benefiting when experienced on a Mounting System that is addressed from the Floor Upwards.
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/turntable-isolation-journey
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“It is most likely caused by your stand and suspended floor”
@noromance
I suspect just as much. I am counting on my other rack which is roughly 3x in width and weight to provide better isolation. The plinth has a cavity / opening to accommodate Garrard motor and bearing. Wil know tomorrow if I need to look beyond the rack to further isolate the plinth.
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@lalitk Sorry to hear you are having issues. It appears you are getting acoustic feedback. I doubt there is any issue with the AudioGrail work. It is most likely caused by your stand and suspended floor. Can you reinforce the floor from underneath? If your plinth is one of the hollow types, you may not have enough mass to damp structure-borne vibrations. I have no issues with big 12" REL subs.
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@lewm
Sorry for being vague…the main issue is chassis vibrations. As I increase volume, the vibrations in plinth increases causing stylus to jump up or skip grooves. Day 1 was worse as even the footfalls were causing stylus to jump. After installing IsoAcoustics pucks, TT is now immune to footfalls. I can play records at reasonable volume but as I increase volume, I start to feel vibrations coming on when I touch the plinth. Subsonic filter is engaged and subs are ON.
I am switching out much heavier rack tomorrow, hoping for better isolation from subs.
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Maybe if you would describe the nature of the noise that’s bothering you, others could more easily nail down the source. Tonearm and cartridge misalignment are sources of distortion for sure, but not the kind of distortion that falls into the category of “noise”. In a Garrard 301, you have to think of the motor and the drive system (idler wheel, platter bearing) first and foremost as sources of noise. When those are optimized, you’re left with the pluses and minuses of the design itself.
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@fsonicsmith
Thank you so much for taking the time to chime in. This is exactly what I was hoping to hear from someone who has a deep understanding of Garrard.
The turntable and tonearm was professionally installed by my dealer. We went whole nine yards so I am ruling out bullet 2 and 3. Removing subs helped but not a long term solution, that’s why I am now using a phono with subsonic filter.
I would look into bullet 4 once I consult with my dealer (he is in Nashville too). My Garrard was completely rebuilt by Audio Grail, UK so I suspect it’s the motor but external PSU is definitely worth pursuing (and I will eventually).
Bullets 6-7 are in play this weekend as I am going to pull out my 800 plus lbs, Core Audio quad rack from storage and re-configure my system. Being on suspended floor + subs are not the best condition for turntable. Let’s see if changing out racks helps with chassis born vibrations.
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@noromance @jperry @mdalton @fsonicsmith
301 is up and running for past 6 days. It does sound pretty darn good with $15K tonearm/cart combo. Love the classic industrial appearance. I am still getting acclimated with its strengths and flaws in stock form and maybe jumping the gun here but I feel this is not a TT that sounds best in its stock form. The inherent vibration or energy from motor and plinth was out of control. I got it tamed for most part by isolating the plinth with IsoAcoustics mini pucks. I realize, a better isolation solution is probably the next step but what can or should do next to eliminate or reduce inherent vibrations. Perhaps, a aftermarket bearing, platter, idler wheel or even a better, denser plinth.
Appreciate your input.
It is incredibly difficult to assist in this situation. It is similar to addressing a hum problem someone is having with their electronics. Are you certain the problem is vibration from the motor? How did you determine that? Yes, the 301 motor is not the smoothest of all motors but if properly rebuilt it should not be causing a problem with SQ. As I have written before a specially designed PSU like the LDA (Long Dog Audio) will help.
My best advice right now is similar to that given when there is a hum problem-start by eliminating things from your system. First and foremost should be your subs. IMHO, subwoofers and turntables simply don't play well together absent Herculean solutions such as placing the turntable in a separate room.
My best guess-from afar-is that what you perceive to be motor induced vibration is actually some other form of distortion. Though your plinth is not the one I would have selected, it is very unlikely to be the problem. You don't need a fancy plinth for a 301 to sound great. I would instead focus on these things in this order;
1) Subs-remove and then if problem goes away, reposition or turn off when playing vinyl.
2) Check the mounting and alignment of the Reed 3P-a pro ought to be considered.
3) Check the cartridge alignment-again a pro like Brian Walsh ought to be considered.
4) Have the motor serviced by a pro-I recommend Greg Metz of STS out of Nashville.
5) Try a PSU.
6) Relocate your turntable and investigate a different turntable rack-I happen to prefer Symposium.
7) Experiment with different footers-I have had far better results with Stillpoints over IsoAcoustics for the plinth.
8) Only last do I recommend a new idler wheel unless you have some reason to believe that your existing idler is out of round.
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@mdalton
From what I can see, Audio Grail rebuilt is on par with Woodsong. I think the biggest differentiator between your 401 is high quality plinth + feet and then wall mounting + no subs. The way I see my options moving forward; order another 301 rebuilt or continue to tweak 301 on hand.
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301 restoration
I’ve attached a link to the standard steps Woodsong Audio follows for their restorations. That and their plinth is what I have for my 401. I also have the 401 on a wall-mounted cabinet. No feedback or noise - but also no subwoofer…
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In retrospect, I think my advice was rash, as I have no experience with Garrard or with the plinth you did acquire. I can only claim intimate knowledge with Lenco GL75. ( And for the Lenco I made the ridiculous choice of slate for the plinth.) Several others who have contributed to this thread can offer better Garrard advice than I. One point that may be cogent: I believe you’re not using an outboard PS at present. Even if speed is constant under load, a good outboard PS can reduce noise by permitting the TT to maintain speed at lower voltage. Beyond that, the Phoenix Engineering gear offers a feedback mechanism that also helps, albeit the PE stuff may not be compatible with your induction type motor. It works superbly with the Lenco motor, I can attest.
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@lewm
I hear you..sourcing a good plinth wouldn’t be easy as the two outlets I know of wouldn’t sell plinth by itself. I may have to look for alternative TT while I work towards perfecting the 301.
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Put plinth first on your list that includes platter, bearing, and idler wheel, and I think you’re on the right track.
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@noromance @jperry @mdalton @fsonicsmith
301 is up and running for past 6 days. It does sound pretty darn good with $15K tonearm/cart combo. Love the classic industrial appearance. I am still getting acclimated with its strengths and flaws in stock form and maybe jumping the gun here but I feel this is not a TT that sounds best in its stock form. The inherent vibration or energy from motor and plinth was out of control. I got it tamed for most part by isolating the plinth with IsoAcoustics mini pucks. I realize, a better isolation solution is probably the next step but what can or should do next to eliminate or reduce inherent vibrations. Perhaps, a aftermarket bearing, platter, idler wheel or even a better, denser plinth.
Appreciate your input.
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“350 LPs is roughly 10% of my LP collection”
@lewm
Thanks for sharing your story and I am sorry to hear about your friend.
40+ years; I can only imagine many sought after jewels and personal favorites in your prized collection. You obviously have been at this much longer than that I have…I do not intend to buying every new record even though it’s very hard to resist at times. I’ve been there with cassette’s , CD’s, DVD, Blu-ray’s and 4K discs. For past few years, I’ve been very selective with physical media. Thanks to my streaming system, which is pretty darn good and helps me tremendously to not open my wallet for every new record being released.
Streaming has open doors to so many incredible musicians and their music. Wish there was enough hours in a day to enjoy more music regardless of how we choose to play or listen.
BTW, yesterday was a fun day setting up my new TT. Still long ways to go as far fine-tuning, new challenges as far TT isolation (getting some feedback from subs) but I’m off to good start…Garrard 301, Reed 3P, Etsuro Bordeaux, and Allnic H-6500 appears to have good synergy and potential.
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@tomic601 Received the photos. Thank you. Audiogon can wait until the fishing season is over. All in good time.
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Lalitk, That does look MUCH more stable. Good choice. 350 LPs is roughly 10% of my LP collection (though I estimate 3000 LPs, not 3500). I’ve got LPs stored in 3 locations on the first floor of our house in two antique cabinets and on some bookshelves in a corner of our library, with LPs displayed on edge, and the bulk are in the basement, in two big cabinets, one of which is the flip type and the other of which displays (about 900) LPs on edge. I found that once the flip type cabinet is nearly full, it is not so easy to "flip" LPs to find what I am looking for (jazz vocal LPs stored in alphabetical order according to artist, flip style). I have come to prefer storing on edge; I sometimes use a LED flashlight to find what I am looking for in the rather dim ambient light, but once you know you are in the right place in the alphabet, it is not so hard to find what you’re after. It took 40+ years and the death of my closest audiophile friend from whom I inherited about 800 LPs I selected from his collection of 6000, to get to ~3000.
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We are in business….301 motor is ON and platter is spinning. And is dead quiet!!!!
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@noromance Brian - Tried sending update video… some thing about enabling imessage ….
I will see about updating my system photos on audiogon…. not much appetite given it’s still fishing season…
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That thing (Tallboy) holds 350 LPs? Can you optionally configure it so the center section holds additional LPs, instead of a TT plus electronics? I assume you will not mount your Garrard on it; I hope. It does not look sturdy enough for a TT or even possibly for 3 racks full of LPs, I apologize for saying.
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@lalitk @tomic601 Yay for "flip!" Jim - need more photos of your recent updates!
You were of course the source of inspiration behind my switch.
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“I much, MUCH prefer flip”
@tomic601
Likewise! Now that I recall, we did chat about the record storage. Prather wood works is very high quality. I wanted to maximize storage capacity within in my limited space and retain total flexibility for future expansions. So I choose WickerWoodWorks. Lot of his pieces can be added at later time as your collection grows.
I ordered the Irving Tallboy with 3 12” Cubes, giving me 350 records storage. The Tallboy serves dual purpose for me, record storage plus Record Cleaning Machine work station :-)
https://wickerwoodworks.com/products/the-irving-tallboy?variant=43209131589870
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3/4 of my collection in Prather now doing business as Divider… lovely wood library or flip style…. at my advance age…. I much, MUCH prefer flip….. im lacking in any organizational system….
Congrats on the TT project…. i get imense joy from a great thread such as this…
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@noromance
I had library style store all along, switching to Flip’ style display bins made life bit easier to store and find a record. You were of course the source of inspiration behind my switch.
I searched a lot and finally found a reseller on Etsy that sells flip style record storage + space for RCM at reasonable price.
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@pindac Indeed. I search or sort my collection in the Discogs database. This always turns up some nuggets. Note that I have my collection stored record store style, not library book style.
exposing Albums in the collection that are easily overlooked
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In the days of the system being in the main living space of the home and there were not too many concerns for the systems security in that set up, (Grandchildren Arrived)
At this time, when myself and wife, were making a time for dedicated listening session. We would on regular occasion, select the whole collection from one of the 26 Letters in the Alphabetically Stored Album Collection.
This selection type, proved good for exposing Albums in the collection that are easily overlooked and encourages a time for the Albums replay to occur. There is always a Gem or Two going to resurface in a Album that has become unfamiliar as a replay.
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@lalitk Like the person who can find everything among a seemingly chaotic mess, I know where most albums reside. Seriously, I group jazz, blues, male vocal, female vocal, rock, folk, theatrical, and classical. All artists are grouped together no matter what category they’re in. I don’t use dividers or formal delineation.
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Update: Spent last couple of days unboxing / learning about Reed 3P tonearm. It’s a beautiful piece of artwork, well engineered and if I may say so; compliments the iconic Garrard 301 handsomely. The Reed 3P paired with the Garrard 301 is a perfect blend of classic and modern craftsmanship, IMHO.
And, there is Etsuro Bordeaux, EXQUISITE in every conceivable way.
Can’t wait to see how sum of all the pieces above translates transforms my listening experience!
@noromance
How did you catalog your vinyl collection? I just ordered a flip style bin storage and record dividers for my modest collection. I haven’t quite figured out yet if i should organize records alphabetically by artist, categories or by genre. Dividers have blank tabs and I easily print labels and affix on divider tabs 😊
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@noromance
Of course I am psyched about adding TT back into my existing rig. Stay tuned for further updates and thanks for joining me on my journey :-)
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@lalitk Have you listened to the rig yet, or are you psyching yourself (and us) up for the big reveal?
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Update: The last missing piece of the puzzle is sorted out. Just ordered Etsuro Urushi Bordeaux cart. I will be comparing this cart with Fuuga. Rest of the chain,
Garrard 301 ➡️ Reed 3P ➡️ Bordeaux / Fuuga ➡️ Allnic H-6500 ➡️ Accuphase E-650 ➡️ Tannoy’s Canterbury.
Can’t wait to start spinning records again :-)
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Lol! @noromance Okay wiseguy, I gotta admit that was a good one 😁. I hadn't read any of the preceding conversation here to understand what was going on, plus my comment does look way more aggressive than I meant it to be. Promise I won't be "taking care of" anybody over this.
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