I know very little about cable technology & even less about quantum physics. I read this & immediately thought (10+yrs down the road) this would upend cable tech: efficiency, clarity, & probably a bunch of stuff I don’t even know about that goes into cable science.
So, say hello to your new 2030 $70k cables. I’m curious what other people think.
"Scattering" is the basic electron movement in our audio cables and NOT ballistic. In audio cables, the electrons will encounter "scattering" all over the place so unfortunately they will have to face the dreaded Audiogon forum scattering lols.
Ballistic conduction may also work inside of Hollywood movies like "Real Genius" :-)
Um, Basically "ALL", of the "Assumptions", That "Djones51" is currently spouting are simply incorrect. And, "yes", they indeed "Are", (assumptions) Which sound as if gained through a flawed perception that may need to be re-calibrated to base-point. And when you assume too many things......Bad things may come to pass.
I hated to have to say that. But someone, (Without a dog in the fight), "needed" to point that out.
Answer me this, Mr. Electronics Authority, why is skin effect even an issue when the signal is not the audio waveform, i.e., it’s not frequency dependent? Furthermore, nobody said double blind tests are unfair. What was said was double blind tests are no more meaningful than any other type of test. They can also be easily rigged, so in that sense you’re right.
I studied E&M theory, taking all of the courses in it my graduate school had to offer. My qualifier exams took four days, one full day of closed book problems to be solved in electromagnetic theory and I made the top of the class in all my qualifier exams for which I spent over a year cramming. I found out after I graduated the authority I had earned the hard way was no match for salesmanship and charisma by the charlatans who sell such junk science as long grain copper and skin effect which they never bothered to calculate in their market-research derived cable designs. In the job market people with PhD's are discriminated against and in universities they are paid less than minimum wage while sports coaches get seven figure salaries paid for through tuition price gauging. I think the future of cables will be more junk science at higher prices and the suckers who fall for it more stubbornly convincing themselves they can hear a difference because "double-blind listening tests are unfair,"
Sheesh guys, is this what ya'll do to entertain yourself? Argue about theory of a misguided science article? lol Whatever floats your boat. I'm going to put on some music and try to forget this conversation. lol
Bigkidz, AFAIK toroidal transformers have very little magnetic flux leakage and perhaps are quieter under normal conditions, but lack of core gap makes them more sensitive to DC in mains, that can produce noise or even saturation.
Very interesting -last night I was with the Luxman representative. I told him that I recently finish the old Luxkit 501 amp. He knew about it, pure class A operation. I was asking him about what Luxman products today would be in that same sound quality. He had with him a sample one of the new power supply modules. He was telling me that Luxman being in business so long has tried about everything design and parts wise and they still get parts sent to them daily for testing.
He then proceeded to inform me that they now use EI transformers over toroidal transformers because they are quieter and tested extensively these results. Now the two people I was with are electrical engineers and after that conversation they advised me that he was full of it that Toroidal transformers were quieter. That was what I had always thought also.
The future of cables in hi end audio ! I predict like horse & buggy will give way to wireless technology for hi end audio if it exists no more cables so no no need to pay $ 70k for a piece of wire with some voodoo magic they will all be obsolete! :P
Interesting indeed, To vibrate or not to vibrate, that is the question? I feel another sonnet coming on.
I read this stuff and really, "It's better than eatin' bugs". Time to feed the chickens..LOL Simple Simon was a pieman, Little Jack Horner, sat in the corner. There once was a man from Nantu......................cket... yup yup
Gee whiz, guys, I thought some clever and curious fellow would at least try the square knot before passing judgment. Too superstitious, I reckon. What are you afraid of? This looks a lot like if it’s not in Wikipedia it’s not real syndrome.
Knot would introduce inductance for common mode signal and no inductance for normal mode (common mode choke), but I doubt that one turn would make any difference. I would rather put as many turns as possible on large toroidal ferrite core (with high permeability). IMHO it is waste of time and effort if you don't have noisy power. On the other hand there is nothing wrong with "placebo effect" if it makes you feel better . At least it doesn't cost a lot in comparison to other "improvements".
Geoffkait, you are a mystic. dlones, I and quite a few others are not and I dare say that we are destined to be much happier in our under ware than you are and much wealthier. This is all old science. Just because you and others do not know about it or understand it does not mean that it does not exist. It is only a fool who trusts his ears only.
OK, getting back on topic for just a sec, here’s a crazy little trick you can try at home. The sound can be improved without changing cables .....and it’s free. 🤗 🔙 mahgister please note! Tie a square knot in any cable OR tie two adjacent cables together in a square knot. ♾ Also called a reef knot. The more cables that have square knots the better the sound. This includes all audio and non-audio cables and cords such as lamp cords, refrigerator cords, computer cords, etc. Courtesy of Peter Belt.
Note I have not mentioned the importance of cable directionality once in this thread.
The answer is already in the last posts about piezo and pyro effects of tourmaline excited in this dryer generating ions :)
My main point is not about dryer ….
Why is any stones or crystals alike, works in cleaning or muddying in a variable and specific degrees corresponding to each different specific stones structure the electrical grid even if they are only passively used on an external cable for example then without active changing pressure nor active changing thermal modification ?
Takes some lava beads and put them on a transformer and listen....the effect is very powerful audible and can be negative in a variable degree of the sound quality, dependant of the specific properties of the audio system...The effect will be powerful but positive most of the times on a breaker panel or on the external electrical cable of the house.... Try it....:)
You correct me on a small point ( The piezo and pyro effect are linked in tourmaline because of it crystal structure and properties) They are not linked in all crystals yes and we must distinguish them for sure... And you dont address my main point about shungite or lava beads at all... Except pointing to a placebo effect....And ironizing with salt lamp... Thanks... What can I think?
You’re getting warmer. All pyroelectric crystals are also piezoelectric, but not all crystals that are piezoelectric are pyroelectric. The two effects are independent, I.e., they’re not (rpt not) linked. But since you reported good results with Himalayan salt lamps which are supposedly pyroelectric I fear you might be the victim of the placebo-electric effect. 😬
The pyroelectrical effect and piezo effect of tourmaline are linked because it is a crystal.... Shungite also work the same in an electrical grid, filtering the noise spectrum, like tourmaline and it is not a crystal, then no piezo effect neither pyroelectric effect can explain the shungite working effect...
I dont negate the fact that piezo and pyro effect plays a role with tourmaline or other crystals,i suggest that this cannot explain the shungite case nor the lava beads case for example.... Do you know by the way how powerful lava beads are in an electrical grid? No piezo effect can explain the working effects of lava beads either.... Do you understand my point cicada? :)
My point is there is other explanation than these piezo and pyro effect, because many stones are not crystals....
On the external electrical cable of my house I use riverbed stones to clean the grid....Because it is cheap cost.... It work less optimally than with tourmaline or shungite but it work at low cost... No piezo or pyro effect explain the fact that this is working....you got my point at last?
You need to expand your Google search, grasshopper. Tourmaline is pyroelectric.
“The first reference to the pyroelectric effect is found in writings by Theophrastus(c. 314 BC), who noted that lyngourion, tourmaline, could attract sawdust or bits of straw when heated.[9] Tourmaline’s properties were rediscovered in 1707 by Johann Georg Schmidt, who noted that the stone attracted only hot ashes, not cold ones.[10] In 1717 Louis Lemery noticed, as Schmidt had, that small scraps of non-conducting material were first attracted to tourmaline, but then repelled by it once they contacted the stone.[11] In 1747 Linnaeus first related the phenomenon to electricity (he called tourmaline Lapidem Electricum, "the electric stone"),[12]although this was not proven until 1756 by Franz Ulrich Theodor Aepinus.[13][citation needed]
Research into pyroelectricity became more sophisticated in the 19th century. In 1824 Sir David Brewster gave the effect the name it has today.[14] Both William Thomson in 1878[15] and Woldemar Voigt in 1897[16] helped develop a theory for the processes behind pyroelectricity. Pierre Curie and his brother, Jacques Curie, studied pyroelectricity in the 1880s, leading to their discovery of some of the mechanisms behind piezoelectricity.[citation needed]”
geoffkait Tourmaline is a negative ion generator among other things
To generate ions tourmaline must be excited and compressed(piezo effect) and on top of my Schumann Generator I dont think that the pression, if there is any, is able to generates ions...Also shungite is not like tourmaline capable of some piezo electrical effect, it is not a crystal...But shungite like tourmaline on top of a Schumann generator filter the noise also, with his own different "signature" tough ... And on a central breaker panel tourmaline+shungite filter the noise also.... No piezo effect explain that....
Geoff I am not enough intelligent to guess when you are serious, dismissive, ironic, sceptic or believer, or experimented and knowledgeable.... Help me... :)
DYODD. That’s what I did. Geoff was the first to take me to task back when I began posting here. His very first comment seemed like it was merely a misunderstanding. That he had misunderstood the science. Which education being what it is these days happens all the time. With his second response however it was immediately apparent he really does know nothing- and it must be something else.
Key points: immediately apparent, he really does know nothing- AND it must be something else.
Immediately apparent is hard to explain. Easiest way is like this. Think of some subject you personally in your life know really well. You know it inside and out. Whatever it is does not matter. Point is, when you know something like the back of your hand no one can BS you. You spot the BS immediately. Its that way with me and science. Read through my posts. First real book I read was Red Giants and White Dwarfs by NASA scientist Robert Jastrow. This was in grade school. I learned how stars form and evolve and understood the material in grade school.
Folks, I read this book for pleasure. For the pleasure of learning.
Even so, just to be sure, DYODD. So I do a search. In no time flat it turns up machinadynamica.com which in a few minutes convinces me. This site is the biggest mess of word salad I’ve ever seen. This is not the product of a rational mind. Unless.... further research turns up a hit on a guy who posted about meeting Geoff at a show. Says Geoff is just poking fun at audiophiles and their silly willingness to believe in all kinds of BS.
Well he claims to be a theoretical physicist. For sure he loves the jargon. But the gulph between being able to type a word and knowing its meaning is wide indeed. Geoff is standing on one side of the Grand Canyon. I would need a telescope or maybe even a satellite to make him out from where I am standing. Or anyone, for that matter, with what used to be considered a high school education.
So, about that rational mind. If you assume Geoff is here for the same reason we are, to learn how to achieve and appreciate quality music reproduction, then he is frustrating and enigmatic and seems totally irrational. If however we grant the story of the one guy who actually claims to have met him, that he enjoys tweaking and triggering and making fun of us, well then he is behaving beautifully rationally.
You asked for help understanding Geoff. So there you go.
Tourmaline is a negative ion generator among other things. I sell a tourmaline gun, if you can believe it. 🤗 I’ll leave it to the student to fill in the blanks.
I cannot wait science progress to create my audio system....:) I only know ( metaphorically speaking ) that after my experiments with a grid of stones that for example tourmaline filter in a way the noise around any connection, or any piece of gear....Why? I dont know and you dont seems to know also....:) Different stones work differently and I used them complementarily....
One thing we don’t know is what exactly about the audio signal is being affected by RF and vibration. And by directionality as long aswe’re on the subject. Is it the electromagnetic wave? The current? The voltage? The Poynting vectors? It’s SO exasperating! 😩
Geoff I am not enough intelligent to guess when you are serious, dismissive, ironic, sceptic or believer, or experimented and knowledgeable.... Help me... :)
Interesting discussion.... Why if I introduce a tourmaline stone near a cable do I modify the sound? I assimilate that to some filtration and a decreasing of the noise level also...But I am not a scientist....
You're right, It should be "outside of wire" (and not cable) or "in the space between wires". There is only magnetic and no electric field on the outside of the cable, so energy flux cannot be created there.
I read the article it’s just as I expected you are using the terms WIRE and CABLE interchangeably, they aren’t the same thing. In the article you just posted they were talking about the energy running parallel to the WIRE which is inside the INSULATION of the CABLE. WIRE is the metal inside the CABLE, there is a small electromagnetic field OUTSIDE the CABLE but it is the one INSIDE the cable BUT on the surface and outside the WIRE that Carries the current.
You still haven’t explained why is it necessary to connect the copper or banana plug or whatever we use to the speaker since the cable doesn’t carry the energy but it’s carried outside the cable.
Without this connection there will be no electric current, hence no magnetic field. It is necessary to have both magnetic and electric field to create energy flux.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
