"With a 30 day, no risk, money-back guarantee; no one has an excuse not to try them."
I am not an EE so I often do not feel qualified to determine valid replacement parts in my gear.
Plus the fuses I have sound plenty good to me.
Those would be my excuses in a nutshell.
Rodman, by your logic, everyone should try every product out there that offers a no risk money-back guarantee.
Obviously many do not care enough or feel comfortable doing their own tweaks of this nature in which case they should stay away.
Otherwise, nice guarantee.....have at it! |
With a 30 day, no risk, money-back guarantee; no one has an excuse not to try them. SR is obviously quite confident. |
Just when you think all the controversy regarding fuses has been settled This happens! |
07-23-12: Almarg
...as I suggested earlier, how do we know that comparable differences would not occur if an extensive and thorough comparison were performed among several different inexpensive garden-variety fuses? Especially given that the technical explanations for the alleged benefits of expensive fuses are not well established, at least in a manner that withstands quantitative scrutiny... I agree, Al. 07-23-12: Nonoise
I just can't deny what I'm hearing. Bryon hears something different. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree until more negative anecdotal evidence builds up. Hi Nonoise - I can't recall exactly what your experiences with fuses have been. Mine were mixed. In my first experiment, described on 5/5, I preferred the stock fuse to the Hifi Tuning Silverstars, both in my Pass amp and my Meridian preamp. In my second experiment, described on 5/18, I preferred the Isoclean fuse to the stock fuse in my preamp, but I could not hear a difference between the Furutech fuse and the stock fuse in my Pass amp. In my third experiment, which I never described in detail, I slightly preferred the Furutech fuse to the stock fuse in my Parasound amp. So my order of preference for each component was... Meridian Preamp: Isoclean > stock > Hifi Tuning Silverstar Pass Amp: Furutech & stock > Hifi Tuning Silverstar Parasound Amp: Furutech > stock Of course, YMMV. All this is just a friendly reminder to Nonoise. To my detractors, please let's not start the argument all over again. Bryon |
Hasse, all that I can really suggest is that you listen to the Supremes with the WA fuse Chips on them and also listen to the SR fuses. I hear a big differences but cannot put myself into your shoes. |
Al,
I agree with your first thought on the testing of the many and various garden variety type fuses. It could very well be that one or two are made to a higher standard, have the same benefit as the high end type, and still be priced cheaply.
I do take a different position on the amount of anecdotal evidence. I believe that if one were to add up all the 'professional' reviews with the ones from this site alone, there would be a big pile of evidence that they do work. I would consider that significant until I have an equal (or approaching) pile of evidence by those who have tried it and not heard an improvement, and that appears to be the missing piece here.
As for Bryons experience, I've already noted elsewhere that his system could very well be of such a higher level of resolving power that the difference he'd heard wouldn't be apparent. I also recall Bryon stating that he couldn't really discern a difference and it was a toss up, but that could have been in another situation and not the one you refer to.
Also, along those lines, i've mentioned that I got not as big a result with what I consider a better made amp compared to the big results I got with a lesser quality amp (Burson PI-160 vs Classic 6.1).
I just can't deny what I'm hearing. Bryon hears something different. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree until more negative anecdotal evidence builds up.
All the best,
Nonoise |
07-23-12: Nonoise
There is enough anecdotal evidence around for any naysayer who hasn't tried a high end fuse to readily accept the fact that we do hear a difference. True. But, as I suggested earlier, how do we know that comparable differences would not occur if an extensive and thorough comparison were performed among several different inexpensive garden-variety fuses? Especially given that the technical explanations for the alleged benefits of expensive fuses are not well established, at least in a manner that withstands quantitative scrutiny, as I indicated in some of my earlier posts in this thread. There would seem to be no significant anecdotal evidence regarding that possibility. And note that in the meticulous and disciplined comparison that was performed by Bryon, who IMO is one of our most credible, intelligent, and open-minded members, the stock fuse was found to be preferable to one of the expensive fuses. Best regards, -- Al |
"The latest fuse on the block are those by Synergistic Research. They sound quite different than the HiFi Tuning Supremes"
Tbg, in what way are the Synergistic fuses different from the HiFi Tuning?
Wonder if they would be a better choice than the Supremes for the Maggie 3.7...... |
I have an uncle who is a retired deputy DA with a 98% conviction record. His mentor told him that he should be able to convict on circumstantial evidence alone. Anything else is advantageous but not necessary.
There is enough anecdotal evidence around for any naysayer who hasn't tried a high end fuse to readily accept the fact that we do hear a difference. It just may take an undertaking on the order of the discovery of the Higgs Boson to document the difference we hear. I, for one, don't feel that's necessary.
Try it for yourself as only your ears are the final arbiter.
All the best,
Nonoise |
This past weekend a group of music loving friends and I were listening to my music maker and got discussing the Supreme fuses I'd install a few months back.We decided to take all the fuses out and replace them with the factory ones. We didn't remove the ones from the amp as there very difficult to change. The preamp, DAC and CD player were changed back. It was only a short time before we all agreed that the rhythm and drive had been reduced. The debate is over for us forever. |
Knghifi, get the WA-Quantum Chips for your Supremes. |
Tbg, I had a full loom of SR Apex ICs and SC for years and impressed so will try their fuses. I'm a simple person so will just use what sounds best to me. Don't care to measuring them, white paper, if I'm drunk, placebo effect, full moon ... too much!!!
BTW, You're the 1st I've heard found Audio Magic fuse lacking clarity so I guess nothing beats a home audition. With my current system configuration and don't need the extra bloom, I'm using all HiFi Tuning Supremes. |
Knghifi, you should get the WA-Quantum fuse Chip that the Cable Company is providing free with HiFi Tuning Supreme. I tried the Audio Magic fuse but they robbed the music of pace and clarity. The latest fuse on the block are those by Synergistic Research. They sound quite different than the HiFi Tuning Supremes. |
@metro- Perhaps(If you listen to COWS, or their BY-PRODUCTS) |
Ccstevenson, I use both Nano Liquid and Hi-Fi Tuning Supreme fuses. I find the only difference between them is the Nano Liquid fuse adds a nice bloom to the sound that sometimes is desireable. |
Map, Wolf, Shep, Nono, - "well stated!"
~ |
@Ccstevenson- Well Stated! |
Mapman is thankfully discreet relative to tawdry bovine retail assessment theories. |
I will not ask how Music Direct would determine that particular state of the returned cow. |
If Gshepardbuster (!) is talking about cows, I think we have some humor here. |
They should call this:
The Walking Thread. :-)
All the best,
Nonoise |
Yes its crazy, but in my system they work and with no need to A/B, its easy to hear. If its B.S. take the Pepsi challenge, Music Direct with offer the 30 money back guarantee as long as they are not blown. |
Real leather is better for listening as it keeps the spiritual essence of the dead cow around you, and we all know the audible benefits of that...I got ROOMS full of that stuff! |
I recently added a faux leather recliner. My sound quality went down. Before dabbling with my fuses, I may try replacing it with a real leather chair for better sound first + a fashion statement. |
I feel sorry for those who have already made up their mind about something without even trying it out for themselves. This is pre-judging or prejudice. Three friends called me to tell me about a new type of fuse. They were delighted with the improved sound they had by replacing their fuses. They all had the German-made Hi-Fi Tuning Supreme fuses (same as I had, too). They ALL recommended the Nano Liquid Fuses from Audio Magic. These 3 people don't know each other! No conspiracy here. I replaced all 5 of the fuses in my system because I trust their experience (their advice to me has, without exception, been spot on). The improvement was immediate (right out of the box, as they say). With every hour of play the sound improved (it opened up like I had replaced my amp with a bigger, better one). All frequencies were louder and all frequencies were clearer. Less distortion - more pleasure. Thank you to the 3 friends for turning me on to these wonderful fuses. I'm on Day 5 and they are still improving (breaking in). The reason I'm sorry for the "Doubters" out there is that they will never know the pleasures that result from this EXTREMELY SIMPLE upgrade. The cost is low (compared to most upgrades). The effort required to actually switch out fuses varies from component to component. I'm so happy with the results that I would have paid much, much more for the fuses than I did. I can hear you "Doubters" out there snickering - go ahead - it's your loss. |
Hifitime, that's good news that you are not a solitary audiophile.
I belong to a little audio group which gets together every week on a rotational basis to listen to socialize and listen to new tunes and the occassional piece of new gear.
Saddly ,as we get older(we've been doing this for 15 years plus, and used to belong to the WNYAS)our purchases seem to be less frequent.
I know the benefits of group participation, and getting feedback from others when you contemplating a move in a new direction.
Also, if other's ears are hearing what you are hearing, it's a good bet you aren't imagining things.
This is so much better than being an audio hermit.
You can benefit and grow from experiencing different systems in different homes.
It also doesn't hurt if one or more members have deep pockets.
The most beneficial lesson I learned was how important the delivery of electricity is to the sound of our gear, and how it can affect the sound, from the panel to the fuse and everywhere in between.
I would suggest that you take a poll in your group about what is the most common fuse you may share.
Then chip in, buy the fuse and send it around to audition in whatever component it is matched for.
I think this would be a fun thing for a group of audiophiles to do, and you may be surprised with the outcome.
It may make an improvement in all or some of the gear, but at least it will be some added infotainment, and hopefully you'll post what you find out.
We are supposed to be an audio community,we don't always agree on everything and we all don't own the same systems,but what we do share is our passion for the hobby.
If your passion is to obtain the best sound you can, as it appears,then try out the fuse test with your friends. |
Hifitime, I fondly remember a time in Tallahassee when there were other audiophiles around and we went to listen to their systems when they had new products. In LA there were more and more formal meetings and dealers who would have such meetings. Now I know of no audiophiles within a hundred miles. |
Tbg, my comment was meant for Vinw. I know at least a half dozen audiophiles in my area. We go years back. When any of us get something new, we listen to it at the owners house, and then pass it around, if possible. I can't imagine anyone in this hobby that doesn't show his new piece of gear to the others, and pass it around if they want to try it. It saves us a ton of money, and gives us the opportunity to hear something, we may never have bought on our own to try. Trying several different amps a year alone, isn't uncommon. And I'm not talking about mid-fi gear. |
Hifitime, "If" is the operative word. Don't assume that people need to see the fuses, etc. I knew a guy who considered himself an audiophile who had his system of all renown manufacturers. I went by once and he showed me the system but did not turn it on. He had heard my system. I suspect he did not care that mine sounded better as his wife exclaimed. |
I just read a review of the new mono blocks in the Brit mag,HiFi News from darTZeel,NHB-458.
It states that for the first time in place of the fuse he is using a thermal switch.
More costly than using HiFi Supremes but also much better I am sure.
Perhaps the next logical step for fellow fusers to take. |
If you are suggesting blind listening test, then none of the other audio tweaks mentioned will pass the test either.
Vinw (Answers | This Thread)
Vinw, the other tweaks like coupling caps may not work that way in your world, but they do in my world. I don't know if your referring to being blindfolded, or something else. I don't have to see what caps, or tubes are in my amp. I'm able to identify which ones are in my gear, by the whay they sound. If you can't hear yours without seeing, or knowing which ones are being used, maybe your tweaks aren't doing what you think they are. |
06-18-12: Hifitime
I would like to see these fuse builders identify their own fuse, in their own system, in comparison to the stock fuses, or competition too. They could be changed by a qualified neutral party, without their knowledge of which one their listening to. This would be a simple fair test, that would probably satisfy a lot of people, besides me. This would be interesting. If you are suggesting blind listening test, then none of the other audio tweaks mentioned will pass the test either. |
Hifitime, it's not entirely accurate to say that all fuse manufactures do not provide fuse measurements. Link to Hi Fi Tuning fuse data sheets below:
http://www.ultrasystem.com/usfeaturedprodsFUSE_LIT.html
Geoff Kait
machina dynamica |
Lacee....Excellent post!!! |
Do you believe that two amplifiers with identical specs but different topologies and components would sound the same?Would one amp using cheap caps, transformers and wire and another using upgraded caps, silver wound transformers and silver wire sound the same?
Are all mods just snake oil?
Lacee Lacee, two amps that have the same specs (or similar) will sound totally different. They even tried Emulators, Bob Carver and his Sonic Transfer Function, and others all sound different. Poor specs are usually heard in my experience. Good specs can't assure anything, in my opinion. I should have said, when a tech scopes an amp out, different brands of part will give you different results, in the gear when it's measured after the part change. This could be tubes, transistors, coupling caps, plus other parts. These parts may measure the same value wise, such as two brands of tubes tested for transconductance, gas etc. Replacing coupling caps in an amp is a great tweak in my opinion. Sometime the different brands will make the amp sound so different, it's hard to believe it's the same one. This can be measured, and my audiophile friends, and I all hear the same changes. Fuses no. We don't hear any change going to a different type of fuse, with a total different construction, such as the old spring type of slo-blow fuses, vs. the spiral wound used nowadays. I don't remember jumping the fuse with with anything else, although I may have. I didn't hear any changes if I did. Before these new fuses came along, I only changed a fuse, if it blew. It's hard at times to get two monoblocks to sound the same, and the left and right channels also. A lot of Hi-end companies match parts while building their amps. Some also scope their amps out to make sure the amps also don't show anything different enough, to be heard. I doubt they measure the fuses for anything. I've never heard of it. Another thing is the fuse holder. I would think that changing to a totally different design would have more of an effect on the sound, than just a fuse. The wire, printed circuit trace, or even one that is totally tinned with solder, is something that no one mentions, except maybe a small few. I don't believe I would hear any changes here either, but electrically, it would be more of a change than a fuse. More ampacity, different qualities of the connection, plus some could probably come up with other results from this. But no one seems to hear a major improvement here (maybe some on a small scale do), even though it should be greater than a fuses swap. Otherwise, there would be tweak outfits doing this all day. Going to the tweak issue. Yes, I use all kinds of tweaks besides changing coupling caps, and other parts. Even vibration tweaks for turntables, its shelf, etc. So yes, I believe in tweaks for sure. I may even still have an old Adcom (?) amp buried in the closet, that was modded by a popular mod outfit, decades ago. I can't remember the Mod outfits name, but they still may be around. It didn't sound like the same Adcom anymore, but sure didn't turn into a hi-end sounding amp. Hifitime, I was not aware they can measure soundstage height, microdynamics, transparency, pop, lushness, presence, shimmer, glassiness, glare, grain, openness, liquidness, timbre, rhythm, pitch, slam or air.
Geoffkait Geoffkait, I'm not sure how much can be measured. From what my audio friends, and I hear as far as other tweaks go, they can be measured, as far as a change goes, and we all hear that difference too. The tweaks that can't be measured, such as these fuses, is something we don't hear. At least the different changed parts we do hear, measure different on the scope also. That at least confirms something for us. I would like to see these fuse builders identify their own fuse, in their own system, in comparison to the stock fuses, or competition too. They could be changed by a qualified neutral party, without their knowledge of which one their listening to. This would be a simple fair test, that would probably satisfy a lot of people, besides me. This would be interesting. |
Hifitime, I was not aware they can measure soundstage height, microdynamics, transparency, pop, lushness, presence, shimmer, glassiness, glare, grain, openness, liquidness, timbre, rhythm, pitch, slam or air. Â |
I use Copper slugs in my gear and my preamp has a built-in miniature breaker instead of a fuse, the sound is much better in every parameter. |
Hifitime,consider this,I have not said that the upgraded fuse has a sound, per se, but I have said that stock fuses can impede or colour the sound of the components in the chain that use them.
For instance, take my Manley Steelhead, it had a very acceptable sound on it's own with the stock fuse.
Adding the Supreme fuse only enhanced what I already liked about the Steelhead's sound.
It didn't alter it or change the sound in any way that I would not be able to ditinguish it from what it is.In other words ,the upgraded fuse did not mask or alter the sonics, It just let the sonics come thru clearer.I could not confuse the Stellhead with any other phono stage.
I know this is hard to comprehend if you haven't had the experience,but this is what happens in my system.
Every component that I've put a Supreme fuse in, has benefited in the same way.
Even my Decware Zen amp sounded fuller with the fuse than without it.
But the fuse didn't transform the DecWare into a Krell.It didn't turn two watts into two hundred.
If this is what some expect from an upgraded fuse, then they will be disappointed.
Perhaps this is the problem with tweaks.After reading about what they can do from happy users, some folks expectations are overly enthusiastic and when not met, the tweak is written off as snake oil.
Saddly I think this happens quite often, and if the disatisfied tweaker is more of a music first gear second type, then he may never be able to pick up on the subtle changes that can come about after a single tweak.
Also,single tweaks seldom are life changing events.
Like I mentioned, you won't transform your Nad into a Krell with a 100 buck fuse, but you will make that Nad sound better than it did.
In other words you will get more of the Nad sound that you paid for.
So there's no need to search for proof that the fuse can change the sound,if by change, one means morphing from B to A, it's more like B being improved to B+.
This is measureable with the greatest devices known to man, our ears.
Afterall, that's what we use when we enjoy the music.
When all is said and done, after all the science and snake oil and after the last spec has been documented,all we are left with is our ears.
And whether they are lying to us or not(hifi is just a lie)our ears are what we have to depend on.Unless you don't listen and just measure of course.
I've heard and read about amplifiers that have terrible measurements, but sound very natural and pleasing, and some amps with great specs can be fatiguing and not pleasant to listen to.
That should be enough to tell you that the specs and measurements aren't everything you need to guarantee that you will enjoy a component.They haven't been able to measure all aspects of the audio experience as of yet.Or tell us why we like some gear and not others with similar specs.
Do you believe that two amplifiers with identical specs but different topologies and components would sound the same?Would one amp using cheap caps, transformers and wire and another using upgraded caps, silver wound transformers and silver wire sound the same?
Are all mods just snake oil?
Again, I'm not anti spec anti science, but I don't think we have learned it all either.
Hifitime, I would ask you if you have ever experimented with a short simple piece of wire in place of the stock fuse you must be using?
Then try a thicker piece of solid core copper, or try silver and listen in place of the fuse.
Or you could try any number of simple pieces of wire as speaker cables.
One thing I would guarantee is that if you hear no differences in this case, then you will surely hear no differences in fuses either.
And you will get no argument from me. |
CD players have a sonic signature.
Turntables have a sonic signature.
Phono cartridges have a sonic signature.
Amps, preamps have a sonic signature.
This list can get fairly long, and go on and on. And all of these components, and parts, could be measured, and heard for their sonic difference.
Fuses on the other hand have no sound. We (most of us) can't hear any sonic signature, that they are claimed (by some) to impose on a system. Not surprisingly, they can't be measured for this either.
The audio reviewers take all kinds of our gear, listen to the components, scrutinize them, and measure them with test equipment, sometimes to back up what they hear, and print their reports. Not fuses. These reports are just based on the individual reviewers hearing alone. No test results.
Where are the test reports, and their measurements for fuses? At least something to back up their statements. This is a short piece of wire, not a complicated component. So where is the measured test results? Apparently there are none, because it doesn't exist either.
We have satellites in space, high tech communications, plus other complicated electronics. They don't use these fuses. They use standard ones. This equipment is way more high-tech than our stereo systems. They are not out of spec, or have poor performance problems, in comparison to these special fuses (so-called better performance), due to the basic standard fuses used, giving them any error. If they did, you probably wouldn't be reading this.
Changing parts in any component can influence its sound, and will measure different also. This is done all the time. Even different brand of these parts can be heard by everyone (at least I hope those who are reading this), and measured by the test equipment, with consistent similar results.
Why is it that fuses have all kinds of variations of sonic changes, according to the reports of the people that hear this difference? And this is OK? What make this little fuse wire so special? Why can they get away with having such huge range of varied reports of sonic changes?
If you change to a certain type of coupling cap, you'll get very similar results, and answers, even from people with totally different systems. Similar test results too. That includes tube and solid state. If you change brands of tubes, the reported answers will be similar. Some are known to be brighter, others have better midrange, and other consistent similar reports.
Of course this consistency isn't necessary for fuses, or at least their supporters. The main thing is, that the people believe they hear something different, for their time, and trouble. That's their selling feature.
Everyone that builds our components have to answer to all kinds of measurements, and similar reviews. And these are a lot more complicated, full of wire, and all kinds of individual parts.
Again, absolutely nothing measured on fuses, and no consistent results. Both of these reasons should make you wonder, what's going on. Engineers know why, techs know why. It's time for these fuse people to prove that they can change the sound, and show it, in my opinion. The same as our complicated gear builders have to. Not just a short, simple piece of wire, that's in a fuse. |
The magnets are directional as well but then they tell you that, at least on this end of the equator you know whats up...Try them with AVM. Tom |
Pack, I have tried magnets in place of fuse and even silver wire. I will say that there is a different sound, but I felt unsafe. |
Pack, I hear you.
Been there done that, but prefer the safety of having the HiFi Supremes.
Before they came along I lived on the edge as you are now.
No arguments from me, no fuse is the best way to go soundwise.Goes way back to the late 70's, re Peter Aczel.
You have found out first hand what so many here fail to understand, the fuse compromises the sound. |
I took out the fuses altogether and replaced with sold 660 brass plugs and guess what............the sound opened up, My amps are each on a 20 amp breaker (mono blocks)Let the music play!!! |
I use fancy fuses on my amps & cdp, and I'm happy...
...Not because they make no discernible difference to my system, but because I'm not missing out.:)
I am serious, they are there, and they are directional too: supposedly has to do with the ground. The fuses were given to me as a present by my amps' dealer.
(fyi- the amps are class A) |
bravizzimo to all ent-huziastik contributerz of zat discustion. |
I received some Audio Magic Nano-liquid fuses yesterday. I must say the improvement in sound was immediate and they sound far superior to the hifi tuning gold fuses that I had been using. I have used furutech and hifi tuning fuses in the past and felt they provided some improvement. Replacing with the liquid fuses was almost like the improvement you would expect from going from a stock power cord to a very high end one. Not bad for $60 bucks per component. |
Mapman - You don't have to explain how you spend your time to anybody. Except maybe your wife. It's yours to spend.
Happy listening and happy Audiogon'ing.
Bryon |
"Yes I know full well about priorities but it seems you are posting more and therefore possibly listening to music less."
Nope. Listening to music and working out take up the majority of my leisure time. Posting is a distant third and does not take up much time. I squeeze it in when I can.
I'm already in the listening room as much as possible, but will keep the fuse suggestion in my pocket for when the time comes. |
Hi Mapman, Yes I know full well about priorities but it seems you are posting more and therefore possibly listening to music less.One solution might be to try a HFT Supreme fuse it just might make you change your thoughts on this thread and get you back to the listening room |
"Hey with all this continuing banter about nothing.When do you guys have time to LISTEN to the components you know so well, let alone tweek them "
I can only speak for myself. I often banter while I listen.
I'd much rather listen than dabble with fuses or much of anything else at present.
I try to carve out as much time as I can to listen and usually manage several hours per week which is not enough, but hey I have 2 kids, a wife, a house, a job and a dog among other things to juggle so we gotta get our priorities straight.
:) |
