This thread definitely has some legs.
Allow me to point out something I did much earlier (either here or on another thread) where it was apparent to me that the amount of improvement was dependent on the pedigree (level of refinement) of the unit and system the fuse was inserted into.
On my Chinese import Classic 6.1, it took a full 4 days to finally ascertain the sonic benefits, which were more than subtle. Upon insertion of the fuses, it went from sounding like bolts of cheesecloth were layered over the speakers to a total opening of the soundstage, a taming of the highs, extension and tightening of the bass, and a clearer and more distinct layering. A much more realistic presentation.
On my Burson PI-160, it was no where near as dramatic but the improvements were still there. And it only took about two days before I stopped hearing any improvements.
The quality of the components plays a large part in all of this.
I would be willing to bet that if I were to insert my rig into Bryon's house, I would not experience the level of improvement than if he were to insert it into my humble apartment.
In fact, the first reaction at my place would be WTF happened to the sound?
All kidding aside, Bryon's place is already tweaked with better wiring, dedicated circuits, etc. that I don't have so the power is better regulated and cleaner than average and the benefits of better fuses wouldn't be as apparent compared to how it would be at my place. They would simply be more subtle, but still there. A maddening effect if there ever was one.
It's all a matter of degree, synergy, symbiosis (if these were living organisms) and what other levels of improvement and refinement are already in place.
All the best,
Nonoise |
At the risk of seeming dense (which I am wont to do as others see me), let me repeat that it's all a matter of degree.
Some systems are already up and running to the point where the benefits of better fuses will not be as dramatic as in a lesser resolving system (this is NOT a knock on anyones system). Maybe a 5% improvement instead of a 20% improvement, making it harder to ascertain. Heck, the improvement may be even less than 5% and that would drive me mad, wondering if I were just imagining things.
From what I can glean from Bryons findings are that he DOES hear a difference. albeit not as big as the ones we hear. Too many variables that cannot be addressed here as to why but I don't feel him to be a naysayer, just more curious as to what is going on and careful not to attribute things to some corollary when not definitively established.
Cautious, not certain as of yet.
I, myself, thought I heard an improvement when changing fuse direction but I wasn't sure. But I keep them in the direction that 'seemed' to sound best.
There is this circle we seem to be on: a circle defined by words, or rather, our lack of them. If one were to carefully reread all the aforementioned, one would see that we pretty much agree on the positive effects of fuses, just not to the same degree.
As for that beer, I'll take some Pinor Noir. |
Sorry, make that Pinot Noir (Lot 59 from the Santa Lucia Highlands, 2009) and I haven't even had a glass yet. |
Al,
Thanks.
I don't possess a multimeter but if I get a chance I'll see about getting one from Rat Shack or Sears. I've always wanted to know just how much variance there is in my apartment during listening sessions.
Time to find out.
I suspect that when I see the results, I'll be looking at power conditioners or the like soon after.
All the best,
Nonoise |
Al,
Just for the heck of it I went and got a multimeter and here are the preliminary
results:
Time: 7:45 pm on a quiet Sunday, usual time for listening.
At the socket:
a steady and constant 119 @ 600V
fluctuating constantly from 119.7 to 120.3 @ 200V
From the Brick Wall Filter:
a steady and constant 119 @ 600V
fluctuating constantly from 119.7 to 119.9 @ 200V
Everything I use is plugged into the Brick Wall Filter, so I guess that it's good that I at least have that in my system.
I'll take steps to measure more tonight and through the day tomorrow and get back to you with the results.
All the best,
Nonoise |
Al,
An update on my AC readings.
Throughout the last two days my AC stays stable @ 119v on five readings and 118V on three readings, all @600V setting. At the 200V setting, the normal fluctuations occur (+ or - .3).
What all this means I can't really say as I don't know which setting is the more pertinent. It seems to be predictably stable.
Neal,
Great to 'hear' you hear a difference. I'm curious now as to whether or not a step up from the HiFi Silvers will make an improvement in my system.
What also gives me pause is the one inside my iMac. I have no intention of opening it up and wonder how much of a weak link it could be considering all the improvements one hears downstream from it.
All the best,
Nonoise |
I may be biased but I would tend to judge the "skeptics" as being more unbiased in their approach than the "believers". Honestly? One camp has tried it and heard differences while the other camp hasn't and doesn't know one way or the other and you give more credence to the one that hasn't tried it? Surely, you jest. All the best, Nonoise |
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So many fuses, so little time.
The same applies to amps, cables, transports, you name it. Yet it didn't stop me from trying at least one and from what I heard in my system, I made the right choice. :-)
Daunting as it is made to look, the proof is in the listening. All other considerations and views are just conjecture, doomed to become conventional wisdom, and in this hobby, conventional wisdom can keep one from fully realizing the potential of ones system.
All the best,
Nonoise |
Deceptive, no, not in the least. It's simply a well worded mini treatise on what I and many others here (may I be so bold to include others) feel about this matter.
All the best,
Nonoise |
I think it's funny to have the last word eight postings ago.....:-)
Congrats Bryon, I think they got it.
Seriously, all the best,
Nonoise |
I agree that we sometimes neglect the fact that we hear through our skin, cartilage, and bone in order to complete the 'picture', if you will. That was never the subject of this thread though it can come into play if it were operating at the same level of a change of fuses. It isn't.
If we were to somehow limit our hearing to just what enters the ears (like a microphone), the changing of a fuse wouldn't be appreciated any less (or more) than if all the additional membranes were working with them.
I believe it's on another level.
It's a nuance that can't be measured but heard and appreciated. Like changing a cap or resistor. The volume doesn't change, the measurements don't change, it's the flavor, tone, air and focus.
I'd like to see what measured differences there would be, on paper, before and after a change of fuse(s) compared to what we actually hear. I'd bet that the measurements would be the same but we would hear an actual difference.
Or I'm completely wet.
All the best,
Nonoise |
Geof,
There's something to be said about a persons character and then there's something to be said about coming clean in such a lowly fashion.
Especially after such a nice dress down.
Do all trolls deflect this way or are others of your ilk better equipped to deal with it?
Maybe is was something you said. Ho Ho Ho.
All the best,
Nonoise |
i stand semi-corrected as I haven't yet seen the differences in frequency responses before and after a change of fuses.....:-)
All the best,
Nonoise |
Taking a look at that virtual system leads me to think that even though there is a large screen TV between the speakers and windows behind the listener and one to the side, this is pretty much a standard room, give or take, that one must deal with and to make the best of. Every listeners room is different and actually no better unless one can afford a dedicated room, optimized for listening.
From my own experience, I realized the differences in fuses without addressing the large screen TV between my speakers, not to mention having no treatment behind me (save for a large sectional where I sit and a bare wall with no treatment) and a whole wall of windows to my immediate right so there is something else at play here.
Yes, addressing reflections would help any system but I don't see how they would conflict or overshadow the results of changing fuses as the results were of a different nature, and magnitude, at least for me.
All the best,
Nonoise |
I understand you point but I simply don't agree with it and the analogy of the pinball machine- it's simply too absurd. I don't have bat ears and the difference was immediately apparent.
Given the treatment that has been done before the wall receptacle (which has already been addressed), the effects of the fuses can be greatly lessened.
I also pointed out, earlier, that two different integrateds I have had vastly different results: a rather large one with one unit and a very small one with another. I think one was simply a better made unit (same fuse types).
Add the quality of a well made unit and the quality of the power before the wall and it's easy to see how much less the benefits of a fuse can be. It's still there but not as much as in some other applications. Now compound things with directionality in an already resolving system and all bets are off, at least to my ears with my system.
I know I hear a difference and I have no doubts whatsoever what Bryon hears due to what I just said.
All the best,
Nonoise |
Hard to say as it's over my head. I believe someone already posted here a link to measurements that show a difference.
BTW, I have practically no technical expertise, yet alone a working knowledge of these things. Just my own ears and the curiosity that came with them.
All the best,
Nonoise |
They should call this:
The Walking Thread. :-)
All the best,
Nonoise |
I have an uncle who is a retired deputy DA with a 98% conviction record. His mentor told him that he should be able to convict on circumstantial evidence alone. Anything else is advantageous but not necessary.
There is enough anecdotal evidence around for any naysayer who hasn't tried a high end fuse to readily accept the fact that we do hear a difference. It just may take an undertaking on the order of the discovery of the Higgs Boson to document the difference we hear. I, for one, don't feel that's necessary.
Try it for yourself as only your ears are the final arbiter.
All the best,
Nonoise |
Al,
I agree with your first thought on the testing of the many and various garden variety type fuses. It could very well be that one or two are made to a higher standard, have the same benefit as the high end type, and still be priced cheaply.
I do take a different position on the amount of anecdotal evidence. I believe that if one were to add up all the 'professional' reviews with the ones from this site alone, there would be a big pile of evidence that they do work. I would consider that significant until I have an equal (or approaching) pile of evidence by those who have tried it and not heard an improvement, and that appears to be the missing piece here.
As for Bryons experience, I've already noted elsewhere that his system could very well be of such a higher level of resolving power that the difference he'd heard wouldn't be apparent. I also recall Bryon stating that he couldn't really discern a difference and it was a toss up, but that could have been in another situation and not the one you refer to.
Also, along those lines, i've mentioned that I got not as big a result with what I consider a better made amp compared to the big results I got with a lesser quality amp (Burson PI-160 vs Classic 6.1).
I just can't deny what I'm hearing. Bryon hears something different. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree until more negative anecdotal evidence builds up.
All the best,
Nonoise |
