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This thread has recently spiraled down to, " Look at me! Look at me!" Anyone care to bring this back on topic? Any professional comparison reviews? |
Horse Latitudes
When the still sea conspires an armor
And her sullen and aborted
Currents breed tiny monsters
True sailing is dead
Awkward instant
And the first animal is jettisoned
Legs furiously pumping
Their stiff green gallop
And heads bob up
Poise
Delicate
Pause
Consent
In mute nostril agony
Carefully refined
And sealed over
- J. Morrison |
Contrariwise, if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic. -Lewis Carroll |
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Mapman,
Please note my use of double quotes in front of my previous post. I included my original quote to keep the facts straight. :-) |
GEoff wrote:
"Mapman's wrote,
Yeah, that's indisputable all right, if you believe in pretzel logic. "
Geoff, you wrote that, not me.
Let's at a minimum at least get the facts regarding who says what correct! |
Mapman's wrote,
""Yeah, that's indisputable all right, if you believe in pretzel logic. "
GEoff, I suspect you are the master of that!"
You are correct. I am the master of that, too. |
"Yeah, that's indisputable all right, if you believe in pretzel logic. "
GEoff, I suspect you are the master of that! |
Mapman wrote,
"I do not say "think they heard" in any derogatory sense. One can only report what they think they hear. But the fact is that others may think they hear something totally different, even if in fact both are hearing the same thing. That is indisputable (I think)?"
Yeah, that's indisputable all right, if you believe in pretzel logic. |
"One camp has tried it and heard differences while the other camp hasn't and doesn't know one way or the other and you give more credence to the one that hasn't tried it?"
Yes. Absolutely.
The camp that doesn't know if/when a fuse will make a significant difference clearly indicates they do not know and point out reasons why the conclusions of those who have tried might not apply in all cases.
Those who are convinced get all up in arms when any facts that might dispute what they heard or think they heard are presented.
I do not say "think they heard" in any derogatory sense. One can only report what they think they hear. But the fact is that others may think they hear something totally different, even if in fact both are hearing the same thing. That is indisputable (I think)?
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Credence?
"Hmmmm...one wonders if Bryon Cunningham installed some of the fuses incorrectly during his recent testing of aftermarket fuses"
"I have lost faith in ANY tests of fuses unless the person performing the tests is already familiar with the difference in sound fuse direction makes"
"Well, I hate to judge before all the facts are in but I suppose there is some possibility that the unclean contacts masked the results of the fuse tests."
"Bryon is kind of an exception, since he cannot yet prove to himself that new fuses or fuse directionality are as important as everyone says" |
I may be biased but I would tend to judge the "skeptics" as being more unbiased in their approach than the "believers". Honestly? One camp has tried it and heard differences while the other camp hasn't and doesn't know one way or the other and you give more credence to the one that hasn't tried it? Surely, you jest. All the best, Nonoise |
"For a discussion about a controversial tweak, I would say that this thread is well above average in its substantive content."
I would agree. Lots of good info here to help people make a decision.......
I may be biased but I would tend to judge the "skeptics" as being more unbiased in their approach than the "believers".
No surprise. I hope they are also right! The skeptics, well, they are .... skeptical, at least to-date.
Personally, I am not convinced yet and do not care enough to do anything more than talk about it at present. I do not doubt though that some differences can be heard with some fuses in some cases. Maybe when the time comes to buy a fuse, spare or otherwise, I will consider some of the fancy fuse options. Dunno. I'll worry about it when the situation justifies it for me. I like how my gear sounds and still have other tweaks next in line to try at some point perhaps before I will ever get to fuses. |
I can only speak for myself. In my case, in a thread like this, what drives me is to help get all the facts out on the table so people can make their own educated decisions. Well said, Mapman. I would add that, IMO, some progress has been made to that end. Facts have been found, experiences have been shared, and experiments have been conducted. For a discussion about a controversial tweak, I would say that this thread is well above average in its substantive content. As for its non-substantive content, my distinct impression is that the majority of the acrimony has not originated from the Skeptics. Bryon |
"I really don't understand what drives some people."
I can only speak for myself. In my case, in a thread like this, what drives me is to help get all the facts out on the table so people can make their own educated decisions. |
Goldeneraguy, it amazes me also. I really don't understand what drives some people. Having been for a year a EE major, I can partially understand. I once asked in class, when we were going to study tube circuits. In a mild rage, the professor uttered that tubes were done and thus don't merit any discussion. I decided that physics was more scientific and switched there. |
I have been away for 2 weeks and surprisingly this debate is still going forward.
I for one hear a difference in the Supreme fuse vs. the stock fuse in my amps.
If you dont hear any difference in your system when using the Supreme fuse fine but please dont tell me that I am not hearing a difference.If you have placed this fuse in your system and heard no difference I accept your conclusion, why is it that a few can not accept that others have heard very positive sound improvement.
Direction of fuse's aside now we are into are they safe.
Just think of the after market power cords that improve sound,are they all UL approved.What about the electronics
Simply stated if you haven't placed the fuse in your system you CAN NOT state any thing about what they can or cant do.
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Kijanki wrote,
"We don't even know if 3A Hi-Fi fuse is not really 3.5 or 4A standard fuse since AFAIK there is no test or approval of any agency."
Judging from the 4 pages of technical data on the Hi Fi Tuning web site, including data for directionality and cryogenically treated fuses, chances are good that Hi Fi Tuning testing is at least as comprehensive as UL or other standards orgs. |
Bryon, thanks for the info. Both were pretty much the same as stock fuses, per your test, so I checked only Supremes and could not find any safety approval. There are better returns for my money in audio, as Mapman suggested, since I'm not "there" yet working currently on room acoustics. Also idea of investing in something designed to fail would make me feel bad. Hi-Fi fuses are not very common so this thread looks a little like support group:
"Hello, my name is Joe and I listen to fuses"
"Hi, Joe" |
Hi Al (Rodman), I think that your points are generally well taken, and I realize that they are backed up by a great deal of relevant experience. The one point I would make in response, though, is along the lines of Kijanki's comment. It is often said that the power supply and the power source are in the signal path, and that is certainly true in a sense. However, as I'm sure you realize but others may not, the effects of power anomalies on what ultimately goes into the speakers (or at least those effects that are explainable based on generally recognized science) will be greatly reduced by filtering and smoothing that is provided in the power supply, by filtering that is (or at least should be) provided at or near all circuit points where the outputs of the power supply are used, by the power supply rejection ratio of the circuit stages that directly process the signal, and in many components by voltage regulator devices and circuits. I think that a good indicator of the significance of the distinction between being directly in the signal path, and being indirectly/in a sense/sort of in the signal path, is that if this thread were about fuses that are in speakers, or fuses that are in amplifiers in series with their outputs, I suspect that it would have ended about 300 posts ago, with little or no controversy. I, and I suspect most technically-oriented fuse skeptics, would consider it highly surprising if there were NOT significant sonic differences between fuses in those applications. Best regards, -- Al |
05-31-12: Kijanki
We don't even know if 3A Hi-Fi fuse is not really 3.5 or 4A standard fuse since AFAIK there is no test or approval of any agency. Furutech fuses have the following approvals: PSE, CE, UL Isoclean fuses have the following approvals: UL, PSE, SA, and CE bc |
Kijanki,
I hope for the benefit of the custom fuse owners that the makers of these care as much about making sure the fuses serve their primary function properly as a prerequisite to whatever specific they might do to make them "sound better", but there is little or nothing to indicate they do. That alone disqualifies fancy fuses to me. I'll seek to invest my money in power tweaks elsewhere thanks.
I would not use a fuse marketed exclusively under the premise of better sound for this reason even if someone gave them to me for free and I actually thought they might sound better. |
Has anyone here observed a clear difference in sound by reversing fuse directions back and forth immediately after initial installation?? It seems possible that after being conditioned by a load in one direction for a while and then reversing so the load is now going against the ‘conditioning’ or ‘break-in’ - the resulting effect sounds better to many. This matches my experience with the Supreme fuses since I didn’t hear any directional difference on day one, but did after reversing the preamp fuse a couple weeks later. |
Rodman99999, Power supply is in the output stage to some degree. When power supply has no load regulation and amplifier has zero feedback then performance of the power supply (including inductance and ESR of big caps, resistance of the fuses etc.) plays part. Amp's negative feedback of 40dB would reduce this effect 100 times while regulated power supply would make it at least another 100 times better, and that's what is inside of my amp - at least 10,000 times reduction of power supply effects. As Al stated - don't look for any scientific explanation of the fuses. It is sort of "audio magic" thing. We don't even know if 3A Hi-Fi fuse is not really 3.5 or 4A standard fuse since AFAIK there is no test or approval of any agency. I wonder if datasheet, showing performance curves is available. I doubt that silver has lowest resistance times melting temperature factor since fuse companies developed special alloys (often lead&tin sometimes with cadmium and small amounts of bismuth and silver). I also don't know how gold plating improves things, since gold is relatively poor conductor. Another thing is directionality of resistance. Somebody suggested that direction that wire was drawn is causing it. I conducted test, a while ago, on spool of about 4000' of wire and resistance was identical, as far as I could measure with 6 digit Multimeter. |
OOPS: Make that, "transverse." |
Hi Al- Sorry I missed your comments. I've found this thread WAY too tedious, to try to follow. Unless I've missed something, since my time at Case Institute; no one has yet actually observed electrons on the quantum level. That leaves Electrical Theory, still theory. No one has yet seen electrons tranverse the chevron shaped crystal barriers in drawn metals, or- if there is a noticeable/quantifiable effect, with regards to their direction. No one yet knows how/what to measure, with regards to the very complex musical signals our equipment is manipulating, and obtaining the best reproduction of ambient info, sound stage(depth/width/height), image specificity, etc. Of course, we do know; the cleaner(blacker) the background- the better the resolution. Nothing I've found has resulted in greater returns, in this regard, than tweaking power supplies(over 30yrs now). It's been my experience, that the better everything before and after these fuses(ie: fast/soft recovery rectifiers/high filter capacity/dedicated 4AWG circuits/carefully selected PCs/decent power purifier for lower current draw components): the more obvious the benefits of these special fuses. BTW: I'm of the camp that holds the power supply as being directly in the signal path. To me; any gain device(transistor or tube, that is) is a switch(or valve), turned on/off(controlled) by the incoming signal and modulating the voltage/current from the power supply, to the following gain stage or speakers. Just my way of thinking($0.02) Best regards- Al |
Rodman99999, for some reason the HiFi Tuning Supremes seem much more sensitive to direction. You have a 550/50 chance to get it right with every fuse, of course. I thought I had them in the right direction in my amps, but when I reversed them, the change was shockingly better. If it is easy, I would urge you to try it.
Lacee, I used IsoClean fuses for several years. IMHO, yes there is a new kid on the block. |
Rodman, see my comments on those measurements on page 4 of this thread, in the first of my posts dated 5-14-12.
Regards,
-- Al |
I think it interesting, that various fuses measure differently, when their direction is reversed: ( http://www.partsconnexion.com/prod_pdf/hft_facts.pdf ) No- I have not personally experimented with reversing my HI-FI Tuning fuses; being quite satisfied with the improvements in presentation, with them inserted arrow pointing toward load. |
I once replaced a stock 15 amp fuse with an Iso Clean 15 A in a Foundation Research power cord/conditioner and noticed an improvement.
Will there be a new even better fuse on the horizon? I would think there will be,that's the way of all things in this hobby. |
Nonoise, I started at the top of the line, so I cannot answer. My speculation is the improvement would be small but noticeable. Do doubt next year there will be an "Ultimate Supreme." Good luck.
Neal |
Al,
An update on my AC readings.
Throughout the last two days my AC stays stable @ 119v on five readings and 118V on three readings, all @600V setting. At the 200V setting, the normal fluctuations occur (+ or - .3).
What all this means I can't really say as I don't know which setting is the more pertinent. It seems to be predictably stable.
Neal,
Great to 'hear' you hear a difference. I'm curious now as to whether or not a step up from the HiFi Silvers will make an improvement in my system.
What also gives me pause is the one inside my iMac. I have no intention of opening it up and wonder how much of a weak link it could be considering all the improvements one hears downstream from it.
All the best,
Nonoise |
I cannot speak to any of the technical aspects of fuses, but I have been an audiophile for many years and trust my ears, not hype. I sprang for the top of the line, $90 Supreme versions. If worthless, my loss would be limited.
I have installed HiFi Tuning Supreme fuses first in my Wyetech Opal pre, where the improvement was on the order of 10% - 15%; greater smoothness, definition and "naturalness" in sound. definitely woth the $$.
I then installed one recently in my modded Sansui TU-9900 tuner and I would now say the sound is CD quality -- an inprovement on the order of 25%. I occassionally have to remind myself I am listening to an FM tuner. The WFUV NY DJ is talking in the room! The detail on the music is stunning.
This has been my experience. Next up for a new fuse is my W4S DAC2. These fuses are the real deal.
Neal |
Almarg, I borrowed a voltage tracking machine from a friend in EE and checked my voltage continually for two weeks. I got occasion drops from the typical 122.4 volts. In Texas the electric companies are accustomed to heavy use in the heat. Last year they lost a good deal of their reserve as they had exposed water pipes that froze in the winter and were being repaired. Some planning! But here we were not subject to the black out that Texas inflicted on New Mexico.
I, at least, don't have any pattern of when the system sounds better. |
Al,
Just for the heck of it I went and got a multimeter and here are the preliminary
results:
Time: 7:45 pm on a quiet Sunday, usual time for listening.
At the socket:
a steady and constant 119 @ 600V
fluctuating constantly from 119.7 to 120.3 @ 200V
From the Brick Wall Filter:
a steady and constant 119 @ 600V
fluctuating constantly from 119.7 to 119.9 @ 200V
Everything I use is plugged into the Brick Wall Filter, so I guess that it's good that I at least have that in my system.
I'll take steps to measure more tonight and through the day tomorrow and get back to you with the results.
All the best,
Nonoise |
Mapman said , " Some people hear differences with fuses they like " I wasn't aware that we were suppose to like or dislike them. I just try things, if the sound improves I leave them in, if not I take them out. I have a closet full of stuff I tried. The fuses are still in place.
And to not try something that a particular individual is pushing is an odd way to judge a product. Yeah, why learn something new when it's easier and less expensive to bury your head in the sand. |
Al,
Thanks.
I don't possess a multimeter but if I get a chance I'll see about getting one from Rat Shack or Sears. I've always wanted to know just how much variance there is in my apartment during listening sessions.
Time to find out.
I suspect that when I see the results, I'll be looking at power conditioners or the like soon after.
All the best,
Nonoise |
Nonoise, if you happen to have a multimeter can you indicate what your line voltage is, at the time of day at which you most often listen?
Also, my compliments on voicing the thought that LESSENED ability of a system/room/power source combination to reveal the sonic effects that may result from a tweak can be due to BETTER quality of the system/room/power source. That is all too often under-recognized IMO, while the inverse possibility is often cited by "believers."
As I have said in a number of past threads, countless technical reasons can be cited why a given system may be able to resolve differences between tweaks or components that have nothing to do with the ability of the system to resolve musical information. Or that may even be inversely correlated with the ability of the system to resolve musical information.
Best regards,
-- Al |
05-27-12: Roxy54
Stay tuned. In a week or two, Geofkait will be selling fuses with little colored pebbles in them that blow everything else away. Of course, there will be an additional charge for "activating" them via phone. Thanks for the heads up Roxy54 !!!! |
Stay tuned. In a week or two, Geofkait will be selling fuses with little colored pebbles in them that blow everything else away. Of course, there will be an additional charge for "activating" them via phone. |
Also geoffkait taking so much time to push the concept tells me to stay away. |
"Logically, what can we conclude from all of this evidence?"
Some people hear differences with fuses that they like.
That's about it. |
Tbg,, makes the most sense, i'm taking his advice. |
Sorry, make that Pinot Noir (Lot 59 from the Santa Lucia Highlands, 2009) and I haven't even had a glass yet. |
At the risk of seeming dense (which I am wont to do as others see me), let me repeat that it's all a matter of degree.
Some systems are already up and running to the point where the benefits of better fuses will not be as dramatic as in a lesser resolving system (this is NOT a knock on anyones system). Maybe a 5% improvement instead of a 20% improvement, making it harder to ascertain. Heck, the improvement may be even less than 5% and that would drive me mad, wondering if I were just imagining things.
From what I can glean from Bryons findings are that he DOES hear a difference. albeit not as big as the ones we hear. Too many variables that cannot be addressed here as to why but I don't feel him to be a naysayer, just more curious as to what is going on and careful not to attribute things to some corollary when not definitively established.
Cautious, not certain as of yet.
I, myself, thought I heard an improvement when changing fuse direction but I wasn't sure. But I keep them in the direction that 'seemed' to sound best.
There is this circle we seem to be on: a circle defined by words, or rather, our lack of them. If one were to carefully reread all the aforementioned, one would see that we pretty much agree on the positive effects of fuses, just not to the same degree.
As for that beer, I'll take some Pinor Noir. |
There is no one here who considers himself a naysayer who has tried any of the new fuses or fuse directionality. All of the folks here who have tried new fuses and fuse directionality have reported positive results. (Bryon is kind of an exception, since he cannot yet prove to himself that new fuses or fuse directionality are as important as everyone says.) The new fuses from various companies have been very positively reviewed in all of the major audio magazines for many years.
Logically, what can we conclude from all of this evidence? Answer at 11.
Geoff Kait, Machina Dynamica |
A fifth man said, "Enough of this nonsense, let's go get a beer!" |
One Man says, "I heard it."
A Second Man says, "You heard what you wanted to hear."
The First Man says, "You didn't hear what you didn't want to hear."
A Third Man comes along. He says, "I heard it in some cases but not in others."
The first two men ponder, confer, agree. They say to the Third Man, "You heard and you didn't what you wanted and didn't want to hear."
The Third Man says, "But how can I tell when I wanted to hear something and when I didn't want to hear it?"
The first two men confer again, say, "Simple. When you heard it, you wanted to; when you didn't, you didn't."
The Third Man says, "There's something strangely circular about that."
The First Man says, "Circles are the basis of all logic."
The Second Man says, "That's true."
The Third Man says, "Hmm. How do you know that's true?"
The first two men say, "Because we want it to be."
___________________
Bryon |
Nonoise, I guess I can see this, but again all that I want to report is my experience. I care not at all whether some put no value on it. I can see that you are concerned with why some hear nothing. This is the opposite of the placebo effect. If you don't expect to hear something, you won't. |
