Fuses fuses fuses
>>>>>All we need? If it’s so easy to measure why don’t you or one of the other naysayers measure it? You’re just guessing. Why is it the folks that are already on board the fuse directionality AND Wire Directionality train are supposed to be the ones to measure it?I have measured it, and often because its so easy. Takes out the guess work. Why people might want to measure it is if they want to see how this actually works with their own eyes (and ears). Its pretty powerful when you can confirm with a simple measurement why it is that reversing the fuse can have an audible impact and its something no-one (not even naysayers like yourself) can take away. To clarify this more, it "maybe" only audible if the supply stages after the fuse/holder are NOT regulated. Most sources, s/s preamps are so it shouldn't be audible .+1; Regulation does seem to help. We don't hear any effect in our MP-1 preamp which is very tightly regulated with plenty of headroom. Sorry if I put words in your mouth. I appreciate that you have clarified what I thought you meant.No worries! Happy to help out. Totally agree. They refuse to defuse but choose to infuse an effusive obfuscation instead. Obfusely everyone knows a fuse when flipped around is an esuf which sounds different. Now you can't argue that+1 and really gets to the heart of the debate on fuse threads. |
bdp24 I’m bound to regret this, but just can’t resist. So, on one side we have Ralph Karsten and Roger Modjeski (as well as almarg and other posters here)---two of the best living audio engineers in the world (I obviously place value in "authority"), and on the other side those who claim fuses are directional. And the explanation for Ralph and Roger (and perhaps Al, etc.) disputing the even possibility of fuses being directional (AC being what it is) is that they are "deluded amp manufacturer(s)"? Ay carumba! Very fitting in these Trumpian days. bdp24, you don’t even know what an Appeal to Authority is, do you? You cannot win arguments using the Appeal to Authority since not all authorities agree. Follow? You can’t cherry pick your authorities. 🍒 Truth is not established by who can shout louder than the other guy or who has the most perseverance or who has the best credentials. Actually, if I can be blunt about it, one need look no further than the owner of Audioquest to find a real authority on cables and wire who is a strong proponent of wire directionality. Wire is directional. All wire. His opinion trumps all the naysayers, amp manufacturers, whatever. Trump. Get it? The arguments against fuse directionality are a big nothing burger. 🍔 note to self: No one has disputed that cables are directional, you know the ones without shields. So, if they accept that cables are directional they must be getting close to getting on board the fuse directionality train. Really close. All aboard!! 🚇 |
I’m bound to regret this, but just can’t resist. So, on one side we have Ralph Karsten and Roger Modjeski (as well as almarg and other posters here)---two of the best living audio engineers in the world (I obviously place value in "authority"), and on the other side those who claim fuses are directional. And the explanation for Ralph and Roger (and perhaps Al, etc.) disputing the even possibility of fuses being directional (AC being what it is) is that they are "deluded amp manufacturer(s)"? Ay carumba! Very fitting in these Trumpian days. I guess the designs of those two engineers sounding as good as they do it just plain ol' fortuitous luck. not because they know and understand what factors in electronic design lead to good sound. Thankfully we have some non-deluded audiophiles, not blinded to empirical findings by their knowledge and "beliefs", to keep hi-fi progress moving in the right direction. |
Geoffkait 7-13-2017Geoff, I wasn’t using an appeal to authority in my previous post (although I would consider such an appeal to simply be inconclusive, rather than being illogical as you’ve often asserted). I was referring to specific technical points and analyses that have been presented here, which stand on their own regardless of who has presented them. And as it happens some of them were presented by me, as I mentioned. For just a couple of examples, among many that could be cited: See my post dated 5-17-2017 in the "SR Red Fuse" thread: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/synergistic-red-fuse/post?postid=1425170 Also see the first of my posts dated 5-14-2012 in the "Fuses that Matter" thread, near the middle of this page: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/fuses-that-matter/by_member?username=almarg Regards, -- Al |
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Almarg, Roger appears to be just another outspoken but deluded amp manufacturer. Do you have a better example? 😬 Besides, you should know better than to use an Appeal to Authority. Does that work in court? Do you honestly believe that cable manufacturers who put arrows on unshielded cables are pulling a fast one on naive and gullible audiophiles? No need to answer, it’s a rhetorical question. |
Geoffkait 7-13-2017He did measure it, Geoff. That has been stated or clearly implied multiple times in his posts and in excerpts of his posts I have quoted, including in this thread. More to the point HiFi Tuning data sheets already show the measured the differences in fuse direction. Not just their fuses, all manner of fuses, including stock fuses, ceramic fuses, cryo'd fuses.Those measurements have been totally debunked as being supportive of inherent fuse directionality, ***even if it exists,*** on innumerable occasions and in great detail in numerous fuse-related threads here, all of which you have participated in. By me, by Roger Modjeski of Music Reference and RAM Tube Works, and by others. Surely you remember? Regards, -- Al |
Atmosphere "...fuse nor the fuse holder have perfect dimensions. As a result, there is a small amount of resistance at the contacts as the fuse sits in the holder. If you shift the fuse around you can reduce or increase that resistance. That is why they **appear** to be directional. Now this is easy to measure. All you need is a DVM (Digital VoltMeter) and you simply measure the voltage drop across the fuse in the circuit. Its not going to be very much, so a DVM with more than 3 1/2 digits is helpful but not mandatory. If the fuse is in an open holder, you simply rotate it in the holder and you can watch the voltage drop across the fuse rise and fall. The least voltage drop is what you want." >>>>>All we need? If it’s so easy to measure why don’t you or one of the other naysayers measure it? You’re just guessing. Why is it the folks that are already on board the fuse directionality AND Wire Directionality train are supposed to be the ones to measure it? All wire is directional. Hel-loo! We Covered that in Fuses 101. More to the point HiFi Tuning data sheets already show the measured the differences in fuse direction. Not just their fuses, all manner of fuses, including stock fuses, ceramic fuses, cryo'd fuses. Guess what! It has nothing to do with the fuse holder. You act like this wire/fuse directionality thing is all new to you. The fuse holder argument can't save you in the cable directionality argument, now can it? These silly fuse Doubting Thomas threads have been going on for fifteen years. The wire directionality Doubting Thomases even longer, what, 25 years? |
So to be very clear this is only reducing the voltage drop of the fuse **in the holder**. Its not only audible its also easily measured. To clarify this more, it "maybe" only audible if the supply stages after the fuse/holder are NOT regulated. Most sources, s/s preamps are so it shouldn't be audible . Some power amps can be, most not. Cheers George |
I can't speak to the average fuse holder and fuse dimensions mentioned, but the ones in my Marantz Reference don't appear to be average. They appear to be silver plated (not really sure) They have a shape that can only hold the fuse in one manner They require effort to remove (the circuit board literally lifts upon removal) They can be rotated in place but it is not easy to do so Comparatively, they have a much tighter grip than any bananas I've encountered with speaker cables and speaker terminals These facts then to relegate the "what could be wrong with fuse holder" arguments to a fall back position: a general statement. I readily concede that not all fuse holders are equal but that implies that some don't fall into the category of holders with poor contact points. It could very well be that Marantz takes all aspects of QC seriously and rejects lots of fuse holders or goes for a top grade vendor to supply them or even makes them themselves. I can't really say one way or the other but then, how often does this come up in discussion? All the best, Nonoise |
I don’t want to put words in Ralph’s mouth, either, but I’m pretty sure he’s not really on board the whole fuse directionality train. His argument is (and I suppose he could possibly be accused of fence sitting on fuse directionality) that when someone flips the fuse it somehow magically gets a better grip in the fuse holder. Cough, cough As I recall the other fence sitter Almarg agrees with Ralph in this regard.Thanks, Geoff, that was what he said! Actually that isn't what I said. Its not magic. Its the simple fact that neither the fuse nor the fuse holder have perfect dimensions. As a result, there is a small amount of resistance at the contacts as the fuse sits in the holder. If you shift the fuse around you can reduce or increase that resistance. That is why they **appear** to be directional. Now this is easy to measure. All you need is a DVM (Digital VoltMeter) and you simply measure the voltage drop across the fuse in the circuit. Its not going to be very much, so a DVM with more than 3 1/2 digits is helpful but not mandatory. If the fuse is in an open holder, you simply rotate it in the holder and you can watch the voltage drop across the fuse rise and fall. The least voltage drop is what you want. Panel mount fuseholders are harder to deal with because you can't rotate the fuse while the device is on (and BTW, this is not for someone who does not have technical skills as you can zap yourself easily enough, so if any of this sounds weird or mysterious take the unit to a technician and have him do it) so quite often the remedy is to simply reverse the fuse in the holder. But you could spin it; the problem is with a panel mount holder its going to be random results. **That** is why it **appears** that there is a directionality! So to be very clear this is only reducing the voltage drop of the fuse **in the holder**. Its not only audible its also easily measured. An alternative is to use a better fuse. That is why we use FNM types with the larger fuseholders on our MA-2 amplifier. They put considerably greater pressure on the fuses, which have much larger (and usually silver-plated) contacts. Now we've been doing that since the inception of the MA-1 way back in 1990; that's how long we've been aware that fuses can be audible in the circuit. |
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In response to Al's statement earlier in this thread, Not sure if there are any other UL listed audiophile-oriented fuses.The Audio Magic Super High Definition Beeswax fuses are indeed UL listed.......before the Audio Magicians drill tiny holes in them and pour in the beeswax. Afterwards, they are likely no longer UL listed, but for a little beeswax and an additional $170 you can rest easy that you have "Super High Definition." |
ebm Good luck with after market fuses as i just talked to CJ and they are not UL approved so if your amp or preamp catches fire or your house burns down good luck.Plus i don’t think your preamp or amp might not be covered under the warranty food for thought.Fuses fuses fuses good luck though!! Typical amp manufacturer thinking. How can the amp or preamp catch fire if the fuse blows? Duh! Aftermarket fuses have been around what, at least 15 years and we haven't lost anyone yet. Knock on wood. |
Well, I can’t say that I have done the suggested extensive experimentation (fuse one way, then the other way, then back again and again, then at different rotations, etc), nor do I plan to, but I was monkeying around this morning behind my equipment and knocked against the power cord feeding my ModWright 9.9 power supply, thus blowing the SR Black fuse inside. The fuse did its job. UL would be proud. Not having another Black fuse of the proper rating/size on hand, I installed the stock fuse that came with the MW to get the system back up. The soundstage collapsed like the Hindenburg; width, and especially depth, just went "poof". Not subtle at all. The sound with the stock fuse is not bad (yet different), but my world just became relatively two-dimensional and unacceptably smaller in proportion and space . That’s my tale, now the FoS crowd (not you Al) can fire away about my sanity issues, lack of education, gullibility, etc. or how my equipment is crap (you out there Shadorne?). Dave |
Should i up the rating say from a 4 amp to 5 amp?That’s been debated extensively in the "Synergistic Red Fuse" thread, with disagreement even among the technically-oriented people. Given that detailed information defining the technical parameters and blow characteristics of the SR and most other audiophile-oriented fuses is not available, and given also that the answer may very well depend on the unspecified surge currents ("inrush currents") that briefly occur when a component is turned on (which in turn will vary widely in both magnitude and duration among different components), there is probably no way to provide a definitive answer. But FWIW the opinion I expressed in the SR thread was basically that the various reports of failures that have been posted (by at least seven people in the past year or two) suggest that a 5 amp SR fuse may actually be closer in its blow characteristics to a 4 amp "standard" fuse than a 4 amp SR fuse would be. Which if true would say that the rating that is used should be higher than the rating of the stock fuse. Others disagree with that philosophy, however. Regards, -- Al P.S: Dave, thanks for the nice words. Best to you. |
Here is my dilemma: I notice that with the SR Black & Red which i have on most of my equipment; I have one in the amp, preamp and cd player. Man... ever so often these fuses would blow out on me. Should i up the rating say from a 4 amp to 5 amp? Also, in regards to warranty, are the fuses cover under a 5 years warranty from Synergistic ( according to their website). I went and did a search but it only mentioned other accessories but not fuses. Any members who had the same experiences with warranty would want to help me out on this? I did call them and they stated that it's only a 30 days warranty. I am out of luck? I am not too happy with their customer services! |
There are fuses that are made to be soldered in, they look like resistors, and don't cost much. I use them on conservatively rated power supplies for exactly this reason.+1 voodoo free But you really need to make sure they are Cryo'ed and in the right way around. goo.gl/Y3ENpJ Cheers George |
Hello Bob. There are fuses that are made to be soldered in, they look like resistors, and don't cost much. I use them on conservatively rated power supplies for exactly this reason. You can buy them from DigiKey - search for fuses, 'through hole' under the column 'mounting type'. I think the smallest they sell is 1/16 amp, the biggest is 20 or so. If you don't blow fuses much, it's a good solution. |
almarg7,343 posts07-12-2017 7:02amCareful, George! You may find yourself accused of being "irrational," as I appear to have been in the second post following my previous post :-) Let them accuse Al, and we can both be called "flat earthers" This "Tech Talk" forum and is for technical talk, I see nothing here that resembles this. Maybe it should be moved to a new forum heading for things like this, called "Things we can't explain" Cheers George |
That's one of the primary functions of those silver type contact enhancers to fill in any micro gaps and establish a better more uniform contact surface between Mr. fuse and the fuse holder. I also suspect the silver plated fuse holder might have a smoother surface than a generic fuse holder but not completely sure about that. Better safe than sorry, just use the contact enhancer with the silver plated fuse holder. Why take chances? |
This threads insane, it has no technical value at all, as there can’t be a technical discussion on this subject. SO IT SHOULDN’T EVEN BE IN THIS "Tech Talk" FORUM. Mods please please shift it to the appropriate forum, say the " Misc Audio " forum, to stop polluting this forum. Cheers George |
Terry9 @geoffkait "OK, so if it would be "very easy to test" how come none of you guys ever bother to test it? Talk is cheap." Because I'm not making an assertion which goes against established physics. You are. >>>I'll be the judge of that. The onus of proof is on you. >>>No, it's not. That's a very common misconception. |
@charles1dad "Terry9 I can tell you that the upgrade fuses are clearly effective in my system. However you’d likely remain skeptical based on your own inherent bias and preformed opinion." Please re-read my earlier post, "I think it is possible that exotic fuses sound different" (2017/070/09/6:15 PM). @geoffkait "OK, so if it would be "very easy to test" how come none of you guys ever bother to test it? Talk is cheap." Because I'm not making an assertion which goes against established physics. You are. The onus of proof is on you. |
