Footers under new speakers

@tomcarr , Yes I agree with you as that’s what I’ve historically done. I remember a project with a friend where we obtained big metal stands that were copies of Sound Anchors , and had a pair of Westlake  BBSM-15’s with a horizontal array on top and big sharp spikes into the cement through the carpet. They were so heavy it was absolutely into the concrete. I’ve rolled that way from the beginning for floor standers. Or big near field monitors on stands with spikes. But after reading all the positive feedback over that past few years I’m setting out to hear for myself. If it wasn’t for moisture concerns I’d throw down a couple big cement or granite slabs. But I need breathability. I have a 40 gun 500 lb steel safe and I had to move it out to the garage due to moisture wicking. I’m going to install the factory spikes today , and listen for a couple days. That will be my base opinion and I’ll go from there. I’ll try a couple footer / pedestal configurations with wood and maybe stone. Then spikes on that , followed by some form of cheaper decoupling methods. If I keep getting improvements I’ll try the platforms. One I’m being frugal and half the joy is finding out. I’m really appreciative of the respectful and insightful input. Thank you , Mike B. 

@knockknock12 , Thank you they have my interest too. Any recommendation in size for the 115lb Tektons would be appreciated. Cheers , Mike B 

I can give me experience with Townshend podiums.  My situation is having my speakers on a second story wood framed construction with carpet.  I was getting bass modes and transmission issues via the floor.  I tried spikes, no spikes, gliders, limestone bases with spikes and no spikes.  Nothing worked except the Townshend podiums which actually decoupled the speakers from the floor.     

I have been very happy using the Stack Audio AUVA 70 isolators on my speakers. Tighter bass, better imaging, and increased clarity have been especially impressive. The larger AUVA 100 is supposed to be even more effective although it is also more expensive.

The advantage of the AUVA footers is that they are designed to provide stability for the speaker (so they don't tilt or bounce around) while also using dampening particles inside the footers that can prevent vibration from traveling from the speaker to the floor and from the floor to the speaker. Stack also has an excellent 60-day return policy that makes a trial with the AUVAs a low-risk investment. 

Trying to understand the Townsend podiums better I wonder how many here have actually measured how much their speakers are resonating. I would want to know that going in I think. Also why wouldn’t speaker vibrations dissipate in a concrete floor ? What makes them come back up into the spike? 

Also how can we know the platforms don’t alter the pistonic movement of the drivers thus altering the sound? 

@goose , Yes , I’m wondering where this will end up and probably where you are. I totally trust Hilde45’s opinion, and he’s tried everything. But I need to travel the path of finding out. If they were domestic and not $1800, I would have just purchased them. Question, my speakers footprint will work on a size 3, but per center of mass to center of platform I might need bigger. Any experience with that? FWIT my son in laws handle is BOB, he was an F-18 pilot and now a T-45 instructor. In the movie it meant Baby on Board. That’s not even remotely close to what it means. 😆 Respectfully, Mike B 

See the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dW9-r83IvhI&ab_channel=TownshendAudio

Here’s a guess at one question, @ronboco 

While spikes increase the coupling that helps to stabilize the speaker and direct energy into the floor, the mechanical connections are still two-way.The speaker vibrates, that energy is transmitted down the spike into the concrete and then some of that energy will inevitably reflect or be conducted back up the spike and into the speaker cabinet. Even a concrete floor despite significant mass is not a perfect absorber of vibration. It can still resonate and transmit vibrations that will then conduct back into the speaker via the spikes, potentially introducing coloration or distortion to the sound.

The question becomes: how much vibration is happening and is it audible. That would be a very specific question  – about hearing, perception, and the spikes, speakers, and floors involved.
 

@hilde45 

Thank you for your thoughts. It is hard to know if vibrations will keep traveling through the concrete or reflect back up the spikes. I wonder now if my dial indicator test was a true indication of my cabinet resonance. It would be great to actually measure the resonance of the cabinets 

@ronboco You have exceptionally well braced and quiet speakers with a special base, no? I don't know how much the podiums would do for you. Probably just an email to Townshend would give you something to think more about, in relation to you situation and gear.

I may try a set of Stack Audio Auva 50.  And buy a SmoothLan while I'm at it. 

I know the Auva 70 and 100 are better, but with my system being on concrete, I think the 50s will be good enough. Better than what I have now for sure. 

@buellrider97  is there a specific problem you are trying to solve?  The podiums have an adjustment on each of the corners that can balance uneaven loads either front to back or side to side.  The size 3 would work and it's about the same profile of my Vienna Acoustics Liszt speakers.  I would try spiking them directly to the concrete floor to see how they sound first and you may not have any issues.

@goose , I have had other speakers on the same floor prior to this. JBL 4312A’s on 60 lb 3 post Sound Anchors spiked. Klipsch Heresy’s on the same stands. Zu’s spiked to carpet and on thick footers. I’m just seeking BETTER  based on the large amount of chatter in favor of decoupling. FWIT I am a month out from setting up a large system on a different wall. Just playing with these speakers ahead of that. So I started this thread for advice. I’m old school always using spikes for larger speakers. So a few days ago I got bored and unboxed the inexpensive Double Impacts. I set them up in place of my Zu / Tube rig using a cheap modded Akitika ops amp. Out of the box they smoked the ZU’s. They are sitting on the carpet mentioned without spikes or footers. Today I installed the factory spikes and placed them back where they were. I noticed cabinet resonance while moving them on spikes by myself. I had to lean on and rock and push down just to get to the cement. After they settled I checked for level and made sure all 4 feet were firmly touching the cement. The sound quality is worse losing bass and mid range clarity. They lost some of the soundstage and now sound like 2 boxes with space between. I was surprised to see the loss in SQ, but it supports what others are finding with decoupling. Tomorrow I’ll add about 10lbs to the top of each cabinet and recheck the level and reconfirm all feet are firmly planted. After that I’ll try a tube amp , then remove the spikes and reevaluate. The carpet and large cloth sectional have allowed me to avoid room treatments, but that carpet is a PITA otherwise. Regards, Mike B. 

@buellrider97 An inquiry to attempt to get the full picture about the requirement for setting up the Speakers:

Are the setting up of the Speakers only with a concern for the risk of entrapping moisture under them or any other support used to mount them on?

Does the above concerns for moisture have to be resolved in conjunction with using a mounting device that must be used for the Speakers that offers a Suspension Function, with the Townsend looking the better option as your assessment? 

buellrider97 OP Hi Mike, all Stack Footers can handle this weight, it just depends on the cometics and the sound. I have just changed my AUVA 50s to the AUVA 100´s, a huge improvement. Best K

buellrider97 OP 

Hi Mike. All Stack Audio footers can handle this weight, but they work better the bigger they are=more damping material inside. I just changed from Stacks AUVA 50´s to AUVA 100´s. A HUGE improvement. 😀 Best K

@hilde45 

Yes I do believe I would realize a small if any improvement but emailing Townsend is an excellent idea and I will contact them to see what they say. 

@pindac Hi , the moisture is not an issue unless I create a particular environment. I’ve accidentally caused it a couple of times. Once by putting a 6’ rubber mat under my peloton, the other by putting my gun safe directly on the slab with only cardboard while doing a remodel. Within 2 weeks the cardboard was saturated and molding, and that  was on bare concrete. The Peleton in the next room is on LVP flooring and I happened to move it after 2 months and could smell the musty Oder and feel the moisture. I had that room tested for moisture and it passed but the floors have to breathe. I have a huge wall of slumpblocks that form a fireplace and hearth. The moisture issues are severe enough to cause  efflorescence and pieces of the brick have fallen away. So the common practice of throwing down a big block of hard material to crush the carpet will cause this to happen. Also any floor mats or rugs can’t have a rubber backing. 

@knockknock12 , Hi, thanks for your input. Did you or anyone else here do a direct comparison between the Auva’s ? Those 100’s at 4” diameter are big, but compared to the Townsends are barely noticeable. Also it seems I’d be at around $1500 for the Auva Vs $1700 for the Townsend #3’s. I’m waiting clarification on any duties or tariffs. God I hope no one goes off on a tariff rant. Cheers , Mike B. 

@buellrider97 I emailed Stack Audio. They tell me that they have only had clients pay tariffs on orders over $800.  He suggested ordering sets separately to keep the order amount down. 

My Inquiry has been to see if my Five Tier Plinth Could once more be suggested as it need not be expensive and has proved to be very attractive as a Base for a Speaker, with almost parity effect as a Suspension Footer.

The Base Tier Isolator could be Footers made from a 3mm (1/8") Wall Thickness Metal Perforated Pipe / Tube of approx' 50mm Diameter and 50mm High, this would allow air to flow freely at the interface with the floor and Support the Sub Sub Plinth off the floor.

The next Isolators and Sub Plinth used, will then be the ones with the Purpose to assist with Leveling the Speakers and add further improved measures for Isolation of the Speaker   

Is there a problem with the sound that you are trying to correct?

Townshend Audio Seismic Isolation Podium for Speakers made a nice improvement to my Yanaha NS5000 speakers. I wanted to see how this worked so I played some really heavy pounding music loudly. I put a finger on the Podium's and noticed they were vibrating a lot. I then touched the speaker and noticed it was not moving at all. I figured that was the reason the sound was better.

As cptrips stated Tekton sells them for $20 per footing, Also you can check Temu or Aliexpress for inexpensive spikes or footers.

@yyzsantabarbara 

If the speakers are directly on the podiums they should have been vibrating the same as the podiums. 

@sounds_real_audio , No particular problem, just overall better sound. I’ve spent my time locked into heavy stuff spiked to the floor. Got back into Mid-Fi about 10 years ago. Repurchased some of the gear from my youth. Moved on to lower power tubes , and now higher power tubes. I’m unfortunately budget restricted and try to enjoy the music in a cost restricted way. I’ve always liked tubes since my first Dynaco in the 70’s. Built kits and speakers as a kid. This particular thread is my desire to understand vibrations and decoupling. Once again I’m doing a system on a budget and will play with speaker footers. I will probably consider vibration issues for my pre and amp’s especially since I’ll have 22 tubes in play with the 3 pieces. Also got back into vinyl with a Modded Thorens TT. Currently streaming Tidal and Qbuzz. Again all modest gear with Innuos, Schitt, Rogue, Tekton, Morrow , Gray. I’ve tried to use American Boutique stuff and just have fun. The speakers in question will meet up with some 180 wpc mono blocs in about a month. Or as soon as my wife leaves on vacation. 😆 The chaps on this thread have been ever so kind in providing their insight, I’m so grateful to all. Cheers , Mike. 

@ronboco I was expecting the speaker to be vibrating but it did not seem to be doing that.

@pindac , Hi thank you again for your detailed input. I’m planning on trying the bags. I’m curious about your detailed description of the combination of materials to build a platform. By chance is there a link to a video or pictures that I might get an illustration Vs me trying to visualize from your description? At my age the old processor seems to be a bit slow. Respectfully, Mike B. 

@yyzsantabarbara 

Since the speaker is coupled to the podium I don’t see how it can’t move in sync with the podium. It is possible I guess that the top of the speaker might move less than the bottom of the speaker which is closest to the podiums. What matters most is that you heard an improvement. Happy listening !

Thank you gentlemen for all of your input. I pulled the trigger on a pair of Townsend size 3’s with appropriate cells this morning.  I also appreciate the input from others regarding the Auva’s and am looking hard at those too. I have a pending kitchen/den remodel in about 2 months. That job includes 950 sq feet of glue down oak flooring. Then my wife gets her own system in the remodeled den. Im planning on purchasing the Auva’s for her speakers. She’ll probably take the ZU’s or maybe the Klipsh Heresy II’s which I will mod for her. On a side note I see a few moderator deleted entry’s, I wonder if that was from Townsend as they contacted me personally based on my post. FWIT I made the purchase directly through AGON on the posted advertisement, so there was zero attempt to circumvent any commission that they are surely entitled to. Best Wishes and thanks to all, Mike B. 

@buellrider97 I will be interested in hearing your impressions.  I can't will myself to spend that much.  lol.  If I spend any money, I'd probably do the level 3 upgrade on my MicroZotl preamp. 

They are $1600 new stock delivered off AGON. The 100’s are not much less. I plan on getting the 70’s for my lighter speakers in the near future. Also if I go to subs , I’ll try them with that. I value your input and it was a tough decision. I can get a pair of Tekton subs relatively cheap. I’ll have to wait and see after the correct setup. I’m on the wrong wall with a cheap op amp and I’m shaking the walls. Going to try 12wpc tubes soon.  

I was close to pulling the trigger on a set of Auva 70's.  They're still around $900 for the set. 

I'm running a pair of REL subs that sit just outside of my mains.  I understand vibration going through the floor, but wouldn't my mains also pick up bass through the air? 

I haven't spent enough time researching the benefit of footers and how they help when I'm sitting on concrete.  I've had my speakers on wood floors and I totally understand how bad that can be. 

To give a little substantiation to the things I am saying, I own AT 616 Pneumatic Footers in quite a large number of the footers.

The AT 616 Feet have been loaned out for a broad selection of individuals to receive demo’s of the footers in use at a few locations in the UK.

As a result of demo’s given, there are now Townsend Sleds, Plinths and Gaia Footers in use by individuals who have received AT 616 Footers.

As a result of being demo’s speakers with Townsend of Gaia Footers used others have adopted the footers.

Being fortunate to know how close the Townsend and Gaia is a influence on a Speaker Sound as a result of follow up visits and hearing the comparison, I can say in he homes visited either with a Speaker on a Townsend Support or a Gaia Support, the AT 616 when added is as good as identical.

A multitier Plinth as described produced an end sound that is very very close as a mimic to a AT 616. Either tidies up the lower frequencies and gives the upper frequencies new space to make this range of frequencies presence known. 

I’ve been having side conversations with a couple members and the rep from Townsend. From what I’ve gathered it’s about the speaker more floating on the platform than the base being immovable. This whole thing goes against my logic of solid heavy box, spiked to the floor preventing the speaker baffle ( motor board , front ) from moving. I’ve always pictured some sort of Newtons Law that as the cone goes fore and aft it flings the cabinets in the opposite direction thus reducibg the amount of air the speaker moves. This whole thing of “ Floating in the breeze” goes against my logic. But it’s back to contempt prior to investigation. A few days ago starting with the speakers unspiked on carpet and listing a couple degrees had me thinking this is a joke. But they sounded pretty good. The after 3 days I added spikes and SQ was considerably worse. It was pointed out by another Tekton owner on this thread that breakin is not always linear. And I experienced that especially with the multi speaker array as they breakin unevenly and have a smeared sound, then clear , then smeared. Yesterday i readjusted the footers and placed 10 lb dumbbells on top. It’s better , but not quite equal to carpet only. So in reality it’s try and see, learn as I go. Now with your subs , my old logic would be use a heavy slab base or as one member in this thread discussed layering. Hilde45 added a link early on about “ More Stuff “, it’s well worth reading. Also I hit you on your other thread about tubes. I see LTA is pushing Apos Ray 12AT7’s for stage 3. Check out the Mulkard 10M’s. Also domestic GE 5 Star and Sylvania Gold Label. We’re pretty established and maybe I could loan you a care package to try when you’re LTA is done. BTW I’m deep into the forth quarter of life and this is fun. Cheers , Mike B. . 

@pindac , Hi and thanks. I must apologize, at 67 and encountering the onslaught of Autoimmune disorder and accompanying heart issues, I’m realizing how off I am cognitively. Please I’m not asking for any sympathy I just want to say THANK YOU, and I’ll be researching this over the next few days. I saw a TT plinth article and would appreciate any links to research this topic. Also @sls883  would probably be interested in this info too. Respectfully, Mike B. 

@buellrider97 Thank you for the information regarding vacuum tubes.  Very good information.  

I get no sense of you being off cognitively.  You seem pretty sharp to me!  It took me four tries to spell cognitively.  lol. 

@buellrider97 I am trying to show there are ways to get much of what can be attained for much monies for a lot less.

Is aesthetic the trade off, not necessome of the arily if a little extra thought went into the end design.

I recently put a Link up to Barry Diament who is the Godfather of releasing the designs for some very common items seen today with large price tickets, but Barry's designs can be produced for very low Dollars.

Barry's Footers would be great for Tier 3 and Tier 5 used in conjunction with a perforated wall material as the Tier 1, on the Speaker Base Support I am suggesting and regularly use.

As I have a large range of Isolators I can play with the Sub Sub Plinth and Sub Plinth Separators and attenuate the end sound incrementally, but not substantially, as the Five Tiers does the Substantial Change when used as the whole structure.

In your own case Tier 1 Separators are with lesser choices as other controls are needed in conjunction with being a support.   

A recent test of isolation tweaks that Might be helpful:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32DrKCqLWkk

@rodzilla47  +1 thanks, that is the exact link I intended to post and could'nt remember where  saved it.

@ronboco, I wonder how many here have actually measured how much their speakers are resonating.

Measure it accurately: I use an old unloved, unwanted tonearm and cartrige jury rigged so I can use it to measure vibrations. This is way more sensitive than any phone App! Just rest the stylus on the DUT and plug the output into a spare amp phono stage and measure the output with DVM.

Isolation works best as has been described.

Also how can we know the platforms don’t alter the pistonic movement of the drivers thus altering the sound?

Newton’s 3rd law states: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, so yes there will be an alteration but will you hear it?

Using Newton’s Law and considering a conversation I had with Max Townshend at the Premium Audio Show in Veldhoven, Holland in 2019 who has now sadly passed away, the old gentleman explained that say your speaker weighs 40Kg and the cone of your speaker weighs 40gm we find a weight ratio of 1:1000 which equates to 0.01dB

You will not hear that. Consider the response of your room’s huge effect on your speaker output. Below Schroeder the room dominates. Fact. Even an acoustically treated room will have peaks and nulls and if not then you will measure peaks/nulls in the order of 12 to 15?dB.   You gonna hear 0.01dB.  Pffft

What you will hear is a vastly improved sound when speakers are Isolated.

@buellrider97 I somehow lost a long detailed post. Please see post above regarding Uncle Newton to allay any fears and restore your logic

I am also carpet over concrete. How about removing your carpet and epoxy coating in any colour the entire surface as found in car dealerships. A rug between speakers and you necessary. If placed on plastic honeycomb underlay it will allow the rug to breathe. I don't know your domestic agreement with the boss but if you can swing it use a ceiling cloud which brings huge benefits. Consider that we evolved with our ears always the same distance from the ground and that the ear/brain relationship allows for this. Far more damaging is reflections from the ceiling. Outdoors there is no reflection from above except in a thick forest where jungle sounds are pleasant.

A ceiling cloud along with bass traps is the strongest weapon in my armoury.

I intend to DIY some springs similar to Townshend but my detailed explanation somehow vanished. This can be another post if you're interested.

@lemonhaze 

What is the .01db ? Cabinet resonance ? If so I’m not talking about that I am talking about if the cabinet is allowed to move on the podium will it affect the drivers ability to properly produce the notes. 

Sorry I meant move with the podium 

@lemonhaze , Hi , at this point I’m not willing to compromise the carpet. I’ll probably replace it in the near future with a low dense Berber. I’m going to remove the nearby carpet, wood, and tile about 1000 sq. ft. , with glue down oak. The amount of that carpet going to wood will already impact the noise level in the house. 

@rodzilla47 Thanks for the link, that was interesting. I’ve seen him before on other clips and I appreciate how objective he is.