Fed up with people making noise at classical shows
Last night I heard Vladimir Feltsman perform Chopin's Ballades at the Perelman Theater in Philadelphia's Kimmel Center. My excitement was building as my favorite part of the first Ballade approached. Immediately before the key was struck, someone sneezed. It was at that moment that I asked myself, "What the hell am I doing here? I have this at home, recorded by three different pianists." Throughout the performance were the sounds of coughing, sneezing moving in one's seat, dropping of programs, and talking.
I know this is the chance you take when attending live classical concerts and I LOVE hearing live music, but frankly I'm sick of it. I'm sick of paying money for traveling and the ticket itself just to be annoyed for two hours. Last Tuesday night a ringing cell phone disrupted a performance by the New York Philharmonic to the point where the conductor actually stopped the orchestra half way through Mahler's Ninth and addressed the moron who wouldn't shut it off.
Once, DURING A PERFORMANCE, someone got out of their seat, walked up to the stage and began "conducting the orchestra" with an imaginary baton.
As I said, I love attending live music, but when things like this happen, I'm ready to just stay home and save myself the aggravation.
I've been to a few places where it was understood that you don't make noise or do anything distracting while the performance was underway. Curiously, they were not classical music venues. My worst experiences have been at classical performances.
For me, and I suspect most here, listening to music is an emotional experience. When someone disrupts that experience (which can be elusive) it is terribly aggravating and in my opinion, disrespectful to the artist performing. If that makes me a snob then so be it. How often do we have the chance to get lost in a musical experience which can be so therapeutic? Not often. When someone disturbs the music it is analogous to robbing us of that experience, and just as someone who pulls out in front of you while driving it is extremely rude. I am greatly disturbed by those who think only of themselves and are not considerate of others. We all need to consider others while at concerts and not just ourselves.
Gee, I sound like a real jerk perhaps but since music is important to me I have strong feelings about it. I used to frequent a small club that featured wonderful live music. The owner ran the place like a mini concert hall and had strict rules about talking while the artist performed. The amazing thing that happened at times is that the entire place would go completely silent. You could tell that the entire group in attendance was just wrapped up in the music. That was a wonderful experience and was quite fleeting. We should all think about that when we listen to live music.
I heard a story the other day about Gustav Mahler attending the premiere of Schoenberg's first string quartet. Some people hissed the new music and when Mahler admonished one of the hissers he was told, "it's okay, I also hiss your symphonies!"
Last night I heard Denes Varjon perform Chopin, Schumann and Haydn at Kimmel Center in Philadelphia. Including with the coughing and other noises, a cell phone rang durring Chopin's Nocturne in B flat major. Last week at a performance of Brahms' violin concerto, I heard a cell phone ring durring the violin solo. The jerk was sitting in the front row 10 feet from the violinist.
Learsfool, I am aware mid-hall back is best in most halls, in the Ordway Hall listening to the SPCO you can hear the ensemble in the first row .Only other hall like it I have heard in the hundreds I have heard is the Sibelius Hall in Lathi, Finland .
Hi brownsfan, schubert and al - I must agree with al here. I would say mid-hall is the closest one should ever consider sitting to the stage, for almost any type of concert. The only reason a student sits up close sometimes would be to watch the soloist's hands or embouchure.
Sound travels up and back, and pretty much all concert halls are designed to take advantage of this. Sometimes in good halls, the best seats to close one's eyes and just listen are as far up and back as one can get. The nosebleeds are not always the very best sounding seats, but they are definitely better than the front row! If one wants a good balance between hearing everything that is going on, and still being able to see the players very well, then the best place to pick would be the lowest row of the gallery just above the floor, or the one above that if there are four tiers. That front row of the higher tiers often has more leg room than all the others, too, for those of you concerned with comfort.
If you are sitting in the front row, you are absolutely not hearing the correct balance - there is no way that is possible. The sound takes some time to cohere into the right blend and balance, and that happens after it hits the front row. When a conductor wants to really hear and understand the balance he/she is getting, they always go quite far back into the hall to do this. I have never ever in all my years seen one go out into the hall and stop in the first few rows - that just wouldn't make any sense.
So for those of you who have always sat in the first row, I'm sorry, but you have no idea what you are missing. You aren't really hearing the performance as it is intended to be heard. I cannot imagine a hall so bad that the first row is the best - even Avery Fisher isn't that bad!!
The only real exception to the farther back in general being better rule is that you do not want to sit under an overhang. Whenever I have the opportunity to go out and listen to my orchestra, which happily just happened this past week (because I didn't play on that piece), I don't take the time to go higher up off the floor, as the doors are usually locked anyway (and I might have to get back onstage quickly), but I go about 2/3 to 3/4 of the way back on the floor. This is also invariably where the cover conductors choose to sit. Other professional musician visitors to a rehearsal that are there merely to listen, and are not in danger of being called to the stage by the conductor on the podium like the cover conductor is, will almost always sit higher up in the hall as well as farther back.
I am truly dumbfounded that someone might actually believe that the first row has the best sound, and I strongly urge you guys to change those seats as soon as you possibly can. Take it from someone who has literally spent his entire working life in them.
I always preferred a Row J or K seat in the orchestra at the NJPAC, gave me the right overall balance. NJPAC has excellent acoustics. Must admit, though, I would miss some of the interaction that Brownsfan refers to, though I could get that in the rehearsals I attended. In the chamber and folk concerts I attend down here in Williamsburg, I actually prefer a back seat (small hall), but part of that is at my age I like to stretch out my legs, and the back seats don't have a row in front of them! Sometimes comfort trumps sonics.
When I go to chamber concerts in a 750-seater where I live, I sometimes sit closer or further from the stage depending on how much "hall sound" I want. It is a little louder close up, but that's not a problem with small groups. Orchestra concerts are a rarity for me, it's just not my thing for the most part.
Where you sit in a given hall is a function of the acoustics in that hall. In my "home hall", the Ordway Concert hall in St. Paul, the first row seat lets you hear every player in the St Paul Chamber Orch and is not overly loud.
The Ordway has fantastic acoustics , only other1100ish seat hall I’ve heard at its level is the Sibelius Hall in Lahti, Finland
I usually prefer mid-hall seating at classical concerts. My one experience sitting in the very first row for a performance by full orchestra was at a concert many years ago at Tanglewood during which the BSO performed Prokofiev’s "Romeo and Juliet." I would estimate that peak volumes reached 115 to 120 db, and I noticed out of the corner of my eye at one point that my wife (who frequently asks me to set the volume on our system a bit higher than I tend to prefer) had her hands placed over her ears. :-)
Even in the case of chamber concerts featuring string quartets or other small ensembles, as well as solo piano, I find peak volume levels at or near front row center to verge on being uncomfortable. At least, that is, in smallish halls that don’t have large stage areas, and have seating that is close to the performers.
Learsfool, I sat in the front row for years. I had exactly this discussion with an orchestra member that I sat 6 feet away from for about 5 years (who I would never have gotten to know from the dress circle). My thoughts-- The Indianapolis Circle theater has bad acoustics. If you sit more than about 8 rows back, it sounds about like an early 50's Toscanini recording (alas, without Toscanini). I have so many treasured memories. Ehnes' opening of the Dvorak concerto melted my heart. Lynn Harrell and Philip Palermo playing the lovely Dvorak concerto duet, Hillary Hahn/Bach, a Russian guest conductor instructing the Russian principal cellist, "non troppo," which I found quite amusing, watching how hard the orchestra works during a Beethoven symphony-- I could go on, but you get the idea. Sitting further back in that hall one looses so much of the total experience. I will admit that in halls where I know the acoustics to be better, I will sit further back, but not too far back. Most of us have reasonably resolving systems and extensive libraries. We can stay home an get a plausible dress circle sound. When I go to a live performance, I want things I can only get close to the front. Schubert's point is also good. Sitting near the front takes much of the audience out of the picture until the piece is over.
Schubert, I have to ask - why on earth do you sit in the first row?? This is about the worst place in the hall to sit to take in the overall sound of the ensemble!! Are you a fan of watching the soloists up very close, or something that? You are definitely missing a great deal of the full effect of the ensemble sitting that close.
Sneeze... maybe give it a pass. A cough... it happens. Coughing... stay at home you sick bastard. Blowing nose... ditto. Blowing nose like a trumpet with cloth handkerchief... turf out on street by mob.
Years ago I sat behind two teens who talked continuously. I leaned forward and nicely whispered, "Would you please stop talking?" They kept quiet for a few minutes, then resumed. So, I rolled up my program, bopped one of them on the back of the head and said in a "Dirty Harry" voice, "I asked you to stop talking. Don't make me do it again." That got their attention, and they left at intermission!
Well Lucifer, I am totally immersed in the music and usually sit in the first row so it is possible I missed a cough or two , still never heard one. . The only places I've even been that had audiences as good as the Twin Cities are Budapest , Tokyo and Finland in general where Sibelius's Birthday is a National Holiday !
Anyone who comes from a place where their boo Santa Claus is suspect in any event .
Hello again Schube. You have a good point. Maybe because this is Philly and here on the east coast, we're a little less polite than other areas of the country. (actually, a lot less). You either love it or hate it.
Perhaps its a function of where you live. In the last year I’ve been to over 30 concerts at the 1100 seat Ordway Concert Hall in St Paul which may well have the best acoustics in the USA ,and is the home of the wonderful St. Paul Chamber Orchestra .
I have yet to hear a single cough, program rustle etc in all that time. Several foreign conductors and groups have said on stage the Twin Cities are their favorite venue in the US because the audiences are so attentive and polite . And they were not saying it just to be saying it . I heard the term " Minnesota Nice " before I moved here and its not just a catchy phrase.
Many years ago at the University of Chicago, a keyboard player (Ralph Kirkpatrick?) was giving a recital on the clavichord, an extremely quiet and delicate instrument more suitable for a small room than for any kind of concert hall. Streets for blocks around were cordoned off to reduce the incoming noise. The audience was dutifully quiet. Then, in the middle of a piece of music--someone's electronic watch alarm announced the arrival of the top of the hour. It's a tough row to hoe.
@ml8: no need to hate classical simply because, (and I'm assuming here), you don't attend live classical concerts. It's different from other genres of music......and I like MANY different types. My original complaint was, if you can't be silent at a concert, stay the hell home and don't ruin it for the others who paid.
Good point Minorl. Now also think about the effect not on the audience, but the musicians. Surely one would think that a musician can play more passionately when he/she doesn't hear distractions from the audience, so the quality of the music being played would be more emotional and enjoyable.
So, think about this: Maybe someone sitting on the opposite end of the theater wouldn't hear a cough or sneeze, but the musician did. So the music suffers, which in turn affects him anyway.
A most interesting collection of posts. I really enjoyed reading everyone's responses and reasoning. As I mentioned previously, to me, it does depend on the type of concert being performed. I played classical violin for many years (was actually first chair for a time), and I can tell you that in several classical and jazz performances, silence from the audience is critical. In other jazz, blues, rock, pop concerts, well, lets just say, it is okay and fun to get up and sing and dance with the performance. Despite the sometimes negative views expressed here, I know for certain that every single one of us has their upper limit as to what they consider acceptable. Going to a performance, concert or especially a movie and someone constantly kicks my chair is not only distracting, but downright rude. A cough now and then is not a problem. But every other person in the theater coughing is downright rude and distracting and again, unless you are absolutely sick and dying, you can absolutely control your coughs. Other bodily functions, well, that is simply controlable and rude if you do it in public. I went to a concert a little while ago with Eliane Elias. She was wonderful. However, on one introduction passage, quiet piano absolutly quiet, about to hit the key note to begin the melody and a person's phone rang. Dead Silence afterwards. The artist simply stopped, looked at the person, said something humerous to play it off and continued. However, it absolutely killed the introduction and the moment. And, all of us were asked to turn off our phones before the performance began. Some people are paying attention, don't care or don't like others telling them what to do. Some others are simply inconsiderate and rude.
I stick by my opinion. no disrespect to others here, but rude is rude. Inconsiderate is inconsiderate. There are times and places to make noise and there are other times and places where it is not acceptable.
MAybe people should be required to go to a training class on proper protocol and etiquette before being allowed to attend classical performances?
Really, this stuff bothers me as well but people should really be more worried about how this kind of music can obtain a larger following moving forward to avoid extinction rather than looking for ways to make it more restricted and exclusive. Most people learn proper protocol over time sufficiently given some experience. We should be more tolerant. Of course there are always the exceptions, but hey, nobody's perfect all of the time. Sometimes ya just gotta sneeze or cough. We're people, not machines.
Next weekend I will attend a concert by the Philadelphia Orchestra performing Rimsky Korsakov's Scheherazade. I believe there will be less,(if any), distractions due to the material being played and the volumes that will be reached. This is what I meant from the beginning. Much different than attending a performance of Chopin.
Rok2id said "The American Orchestras don't record anymore. I look at my LPs and they are all NY, Chicago, Philadelphia, Boston and Cleveland. My CDs are almost all European. I think for a few decades after the war we had the best, but then greed reared it's ugly head. Now the Europeans have recovered and have now surpassed the US."
One very important reason would be that the vast majority of European orchestras are state supported, so it is much more inexpensive for them to record than it is in our system here. Lots of folks don't like to hear that kind of talk, though....
"Rok, you dont the Cleve is top 5 in entire world? I do and thought others did aswell. Interested in your take, considered elite at minimum!"
How can anyone know? The American Orchestras don't record anymore. I look at my LPs and they are all NY, Chicago, Philadelphia, Boston and Cleveland. My CDs are almost all European. I think for a few decades after the war we had the best, but then greed reared it's ugly head. Now the Europeans have recovered and have now surpassed the US. You can make the case that MN is now the top American Orch. At least you can buy CDs by them. But my favorite from the past was Philadelphia / Ormandy. A young person getting into classical music today could not be faulted for thinking that ALL classical orchestras are European!! I think the war helped this country in ways most of us don't even recognize. Now the advantages we gained from the war are disappearing.
But to answer your question: You would have to consider Berlin, Vienna, Concertgebouw, LSO, St Martin Fields, and the Leipzig Gewandhaus. Along with many smaller but outstanding orchestras and chamber groups. Is Cleveland in this company? I certainly hope so. I wonder how many young people know that Cleveland has an Orchestra? But, I am an American first, last and always so... Hell yes Cleveland is in the elite category.
There is no substitute for live shows even with all the flaws. The view of the performers, the clarity and enjoying it with my friends and family still makes it worth the negatives. I go see the Cleveland Orchestra often as its close and they are in top 5 in entire world IMO so its always a treat. We have season tics to Youngstown Symphony and they are surprisingly good with what I feel an under rated conductor. A great system that I and my father both enjoy for different strengths as his and mine are very different are a great substitute but still just a substitute to the real experience. As a side note my dad majored in Pipe Organ, Flute, Violinand voice and has conducted.
94 posts ago I suggested this topic would be a can of worms. I wish I were this good at predicting the stock market.
I am no music historian. I hope someone who is better informed will offer some insight about the evolution of concert etiquette. My understanding is that well into the classical era, music and musical performance was commissioned and supported by either the ruling class or the church. The attitude was apparently one of "he who pays the piper calls the tune." I get the feeling that the nobility many times viewed court musicians and composers as their servants. That being the case, maybe talking or something less than complete silence and focus on the music was just as natural is if I get up from a listening session to answer the phone. I bought the music, I bought the stereo, its my house, Ill do what I want and do not need to answer to anyone if I want to hit pause.
Perhaps those of you who have seen Copying Beethoven recall the scene where LvB let it be known that no one was to talk during his performance of one of his sonatas. The point here is that with the rise of the middle class and a diminished influence of a small elite group, ownership moved to a much broader group of patrons. At that time the newly emerging middle class began to take a very serious interest in music. They bought copies of published works, performed them in their own homes, and began to attend performances in public forums. I suspect that current expectations for concert etiquette had their root in this period. Ownership of the music was now more broadly distributed between paying customers, patrons, composers, professional performers, and to varying degrees, democratically elected governments. Apparently a common set of expectations respecting the wants and needs of this relatively broad demographic arose during this period. Comparison with a time share condominium comes to mind. Best to think of the others who have a share in the ownership.
Where are we now? It is customary in program guides to list patrons of the symphony in groups according to the level of their contributions, which shows clearly that a very small select group of corporations and individuals currently pay the piper in America. The middle class, at least in America, has for the most part moved on. They are no longer a significant part of the ownership demographic. I think most of us would like to see a return to the past, where patronage was more broadly distributed. Im just not sure that hope is realistic. The middle class is absolutely bombarded with entertainment opportunities. I recall an instance several years ago where a woman in her 30s sat next to me at a concert. Very nicely dressed, and I thought, nice to see some younger people coming. About 5 minutes into the first piece, she took out a game boy type device and entertained herself with that until intermission, after which she did not return. Orchestras are struggling trying to figure out how to attract and assimilate this demographic. Meanwhile, many of the current piper payers are becoming deeply disturbed by the erosion in paradigms of etiquette that have stood for years. They, like the OP, have become increasingly frustrated, having endured many episodes of disruptive behavior. Orchestras will do well to be sensitive to the needs of this group, otherwise, they too will move on and our orchestras will cease to exist.
Chadnliz, Your responsible for 21/96 posts! Check with the Audiogon staff if this sets a thread record. Maybe they will send you some party noise makers to bring to your next classical concert!
Mark W. Sounds much closer to my opinion than of those who kept slamming me for trying repeatedly to reason with folks here. I cant help but feel a sort of vindication as this opinion came from the top if the food chain. Cheers
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