If you're looking for a way to try out streaming, consider the Sonos Connect (which you could probably pick up for cheap on eBay these days.) I'm using it as a Roon endpoint and feeding the digital output directly to the (way higher quality) DAC in my HK990 integrated. Streaming TIDAL and my own HDTracks content from my NAS, the results are really good.
Fairly new to streaming. Where to start?
$2k & under budget
Aralic Vega has streamer and DAC. May be the easiest start?
Then there is Schiit...Yiggy or Gumby...which streamer?
Ladder NOS dac? Or Chip? I'm old. maybe I'll like the old school DAC?
Then there is Benchmark DAC 3...I think it has streamer?
Then
Exasound E32
Audio Mirror?
Metrum
MHDT Orchid
Border Patrol?
Musical Paradise?
Whats a newbie to do? I am a classic rock fan with lots of FLAC & M4a files. I like detail & PRaT. Love a good bass line. I also play some 70's jazz. I have a Theta Miles CD player from the 1900's & play a lot of vinyl too. But I need to come into the 21st century. Besides, I will probably become tired of the vinyl ritual and work at some point as I get older. I think I have done enough homework to be somewhat confused. Maybe the biggest question in light of how fast digital changes is the question of streamer with DAC or separate Streamer and DAC. One other question is the streamer & bridge the same thing? OK Thanks!!
Aralic Vega has streamer and DAC. May be the easiest start?
Then there is Schiit...Yiggy or Gumby...which streamer?
Ladder NOS dac? Or Chip? I'm old. maybe I'll like the old school DAC?
Then there is Benchmark DAC 3...I think it has streamer?
Then
Exasound E32
Audio Mirror?
Metrum
MHDT Orchid
Border Patrol?
Musical Paradise?
Whats a newbie to do? I am a classic rock fan with lots of FLAC & M4a files. I like detail & PRaT. Love a good bass line. I also play some 70's jazz. I have a Theta Miles CD player from the 1900's & play a lot of vinyl too. But I need to come into the 21st century. Besides, I will probably become tired of the vinyl ritual and work at some point as I get older. I think I have done enough homework to be somewhat confused. Maybe the biggest question in light of how fast digital changes is the question of streamer with DAC or separate Streamer and DAC. One other question is the streamer & bridge the same thing? OK Thanks!!
146 responses Add your response
I second the Bluesound approach - excellent app then you can upgrade the DAC. Lumin D2 has a far less friendly app, does not have an antenna, and support from Lumin at least in the USA is non-existent. The access to all the streaming radio stations in the world will be a revelation. Tidal on the internal Bluesound DAC is pretty darn satisfying for all but those who sit in the perfect listening position imitating Jonsey from the Hunt for Red October. Let me start by saying I don't own a Lumin, so that I'm not perceived as a "fanboy". My TEAC NT-505 can use the Lumin app. I agree that the Lumin app is not that great. The Bluesound app is really good and one of the most compelling reasons to go with Bluesound. I am using BubbleUpNP instead, which cost all of 5 bucks to get the ad free version. The one thing that BubbleUpNP won't do that the Lumin app will (as far as I know) is stream internet radio stations, including Radio Paradise (which is the best of them IMHO). You can always switch back to the Lumin app to listen to internet radio. I have both on my phone and tablet. The difference you'll hear between a really good DAC and the very decent DAC in the Bluesound has more to do with the quality of your other components than your listening position. The difference between the sound of my TEAC and the Bluesound was more than subtle. |
I went through the same thing a few years ago (I love the Theta Miles CD player, FYI . . . mine got lost in a move somehow, :( ). I highly recommend the Naim NDX, which is an excellent DAC/Streamer and performs really well. Another thing that I really like about the Naim is that it comes with an excellent Naim streaming app to access all of your digital music, and has a lot of info on each album, so you don't need to fork over big bucks for Roon. I switched over to a high end MSB Analog DAC with volume control and eliminated my preamp, or I would still be using the Naim! |
Best Advice In This Thread: djones511,279 post03-14-2020 7:38pmYes you can use the Node2i as a streamer with a different dac, you can always just start with the Node2i using its dac to get your feet wet for low cost. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Denon Heos is cheaper than a Node2i but performs the same function. Node sounds better, Heos has a better interface. If you are technically adept, you can build a Rasberry Pi, and connect it to your network for basically pocket change. |
You don't need to be an adept to build a RPI solution. Volumio provides a very good guide: https://volumio.org/get-started/ If Roon is your forte: https://ropieee.org/getting_started/ I've used them both and many others with RPI3 for years and spent more money on DAC. If somebody still feels tech-challenged, I could help. While all commercial solutions are pretty good, the do tend to cost $$$, after al, all depends how much $ you have to play withl. |
Friends, Thanks for all the info. One thing I think is missing is that most of you probably have not looked at my system. It is listed here on A’gon (though w dated picys). But that may be something that most don’t know about. So here it is Teres 340 TT Vacuum State JLTi phono pre Zyx 4D cart on OL Illustrious tonearm Theta Miles CDP Conrad Johnson CT-5 preamp Bob Latino ST-70 amp Silverline Sonata speakers 2 Sumiko S-10 subs (Rel S-5 clones) Pure Note cables Monster power conditioner Oyaide R1 power outlet Various tweaks especially footers (makes a real difference) Some have suggested that I spend $200-300 +/- for a player/dac. Do you really think that will sound good or be competitive in my system? Of course not. Again, I appreciate your efforts. But top quality playback comes at a cost. Sure, there are giant killers. The Latino ST-70 is one. But giant killers are very few. As much as it seems to bother the new audiophile, price is an indicator. FWIW, I don't have deep pockets. Its taken me 20 yrs to get to this level. But I am committed to good quality sound. And I have often spent a quarter to save a dime. Its human nature. We want things as cheap as we can get them. But one thing I have learned is that 95% of the time when I try to go too cheap I end up spending more than I would have if I had spent the necessary $$ to get what I was looking for in the 1st place. |
Some good conclusions here: https://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/06/measurements-do-bit-perfect-digital.html His system is likely better than mine and he still uses a "cheap" transport. Bitperfect transport of your music bits is pretty much the same, now it is more about packaging and features. |
Here is my recommendation. I have been streaming since 2014. My first streamer was a Pioneer N50. Later in 2017, I moved to a Sony UHP-H1 SACD/Streamer. Finally in 2018, I moved to the Denon Heos Link V2 so that I can subscribe to Tidal. As far as sound, they were all very close to each other with the Pioneer being slightly above the other two. The average prices was around $600 US but the Sony was under $300. By they way, all of these units sounded better with an external DAC. (REGA) Anyway, what I discovered through AB comparisons is that my Cambridge Audio CD transport ($500) sounded much better than all three. I am not implying that you buy a cd player instead. Streamers offer other benefits that cd players don't have. However, my recommendation to anybody who is after great "audiophile" sound is not too spend too much money a streamer. Get something decent that will satisfy your needs. Used streamers are a good option if you don't plan to subscribe to music services. With that, I will recommend the following three streams based on the fact that I have auditioned them: 1. Cambridge Audio CXN V2. This streamer has a great sounding DAC as well with plenty of digital inputs. Best sounding of the three, with or without external DAC. 2 Bluesound Node 2i. This is my second choice. It has a good app as well. Will sound best is connected to a "decent" DAC. 3. Denon Heos Link V2. This is what I have on my system. Not bad when connected to my REGA or Musical Fidelity DAC. I hope this helps. Good luck Cheers. |
Some have suggested that I spend $200-300 +/- for a player/dac. Do you really think that will sound good or be competitive in my system? Of course not.The Node 2 was a good way for me to dip my toes into the world of streaming, but the turning point for me was when I spent some time listening to the same song on my two turntables, my CD player, and the Bluesound. Obviously there are a number of factors that contribute to the sound quality, the recording itself, phono stages, cables, etc. Having said that, the Bluesound was the least good sounding source in my system. And I was using my Auralic Vega as the DAC instead of the Bluesound's DAC. I never thought the Bluesound sounded bad, but it wasn't as good. After upgrading to the TEAC NT-505 I've had thoughts of going all digital. I enjoy spinning records too much and they do have their "magic", but the playing field has been leveled, if not tipped in favor of digital due to the convenience factor and access to an exponentially larger collection of music than I have at my fingertips through streaming services. I know you've said you don't plan to use any streaming services, but you should really give them a try. Sound quality is excellent and it greatly expands your music library. For the price of a few lattes, you can have an enormous library of music available. Starting out with something like the Bluesound might not be in line with the quality of the rest of your system, but it will give you a chance to find out if streaming is for you or not. I bought mine as a demo unit and flipped it for about what I paid for it when I upgraded. The Lumin D2 or the TEAC NT-505 would be in line with the rest of your system and both are around your budget. If you're convinced that streaming is something you'll use and enjoy, then I'd just skip the lower end stuff and start there. |
My old audio digital bits have not changed for over a decade. "..Unless programmed to manipulate the digital data.." here is one from 2016 - https://archimago.blogspot.com/2016/08/musings-do-audiophile-computer-based.html mentioning Aurender as one of the solutions. Since we are talking streaming pedigree, I've been streaming since 2004 with Apple's Airport Express(M9470LL/A), bit perfect even then if used with optical out, before all other solutions came around. Personally I use RPI3 with venerable RopieeXL. Have I compared it with USB directly out of my laptops, iPads, YES. RPI has a DigiOne coax SPDIF, so I do both USB and Coax and even optical with Audio Chromcast into my DAC, which is Chord Hugo TT2 and on either input, optical/coax/USB of any combination, PC, iPad, RPI, all of them sound just as good, actually better then good, but that I do not attribute to transports or source but to TT2. Source can be FLAC/ALAC/DSD or lossless streams. |
Artemus_5 I have not a/b'ed the Node and Yamaha but am going on the comments of others.Here is a pretty thoughtful review of the unit, in case you have not come across this; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovrS88tddmo&t=497sOne of the things I like about the Yamaha is both the hardware and the Musicast software is very flexible with regard to sources and outputs, although I expect BlueOS is also quite good from what I have read. I can't find any reviews of the new Ultra Rendu but it's predecessor was held in pretty high esteem. The SOTM SMS200ultra is also a contender at a slightly higher price point. To get the most out of each of these options I think a quality external power supply and a commitment to Roon may be necessary. |
@artemus_5 I like your enthusiasm! @biku Thanks for the article! @djones51 I definitely wonder if you are right. I don't understand the complications of transmitting the data in a digital manner, so I am certainly in waters deeper than I should. I do know that the iPhone X and later models can transmit FLAC through the lightning port, however not through their Apple Music app, which has never supported FLAC and has always been an irritant. So I guess, I am asking for an education on data transmission and clocking... What makes the data transmission better in various devices? Does RFI have an effect on digital signals? |
I meant to mention earlier that if you want to stream over wireless and are looking at a device that doesn't have wireless capability, it's really easy and inexpensive to set up a wireless access point. It's like a wireless receiver that you can connect an ethernet cable to. Here's the device I use. https://www.newegg.com/tp-link-tl-wa801nd/p/N82E16833704052 I have it connected to an ethernet switch that my streamer, roku, TV, Oppo bluray player, and home theater processor are all connected to. Works great! Many recommend a direct wired connection, but that's not practical for everyone. |
I use Roon and have been streaming for several years. I stream both Tidal and more recently Qobuz as well as music from my local NAS. My primary streaming setup is a Schiit Yggdrasil DAC and a Metrum Ambre streamer. They work very well together and are seamless with Roon. Music quality is excellent. The downside for many people is cost as these two units together run $3000 to $3500. Don’t get me wrong, I love them and for me they are absolutely worth it. A few months back I was watching a “Darko” youtube video about a Raspberry Pi music dac/streamer combo from Allo called the Boss Player. It’s a Roon ready dac/streamer in one box and costs $169. You need to add $25 or so to power it, but Darko gave it rave reviews – so I had to try it. When it arrived, it took about 20 min to assemble it and get it on my network. I had decided to use Ropieee software and it is also seamless when interfacing with Roon. When streaming HiRes music through Roon I cannot detect a difference in quality between the two approaches – maybe hard to believe, but true. Doing some further research into the Metrum Ambre, I found that it is also running Raspberry Pi internally and Ropieee software. Without question, the Ambre is a solid, well built unit and has considerably more interface options, but the heart of it is the same. My recommendation for anyone who wants to try streaming without spending a great deal of money should try the Raspberry Pi route – then they could move up to more expensive solutions when they wish. |
+1 for Bluesound Node2i. I have the NAD C388 (integrated Ncore-based amp) with BluOS2i integrated module (occupies one of the MDC slots). Heard NAD is discontinuing this topology - but they work great. WiFi, Amazon UltraHD, no cables, great interface using BluOS on PC/tablet/phone app. Side note: Using C388 for the digital experience, and full range RCA outs to a miniDSP4x10 (for DSP control) to Crestron 12x60 (made by ATI) for class A/B experience. Needed DSP and multi-channel amp for LXmini and other speakers rotating through the demo stable (to compare LXmini against) - currently Tekton DI. LXmini require active crossover, and comparing other speakers requires adjusting gain to eliminate volume bias during A/B - that is all handled by the DSP config. BluOS2i interface works very well by BluOS app. Any service, including Tidal with native MQA unfolding, is available. Or even by Bluetooth (for non-critical listening) from a PC/tablet/phone running any other (not BluOS) app. |
@big_gregI love my vinyl but I am 69 yr old now. There will come a time where I won’t feel like doing the ritual which goes with vinyl. Digital is easy...even CD is easier than vinyl. But CDP’s will be extinct very soon. Streaming is the trend. When I started this thread, I had certain notions that were not true. So I have learned from this thread. I also thought about getting a network extender so I could use a wired player. I have good signal now with a WRT1900 Linksys router. Network does 100mbps (Spectrum) so I am fortunate there. The extender may be added insurance since my system is 50 ft from the router. But maybe more important are the wired LAN connections it offers. I don’t discount the streaming services. I’m sure I’ll try them. But they aren’t important at this point. I’m sure I have a terabite of files now. Sometimes I do Pandora but not often. And I know they are not hi def. I’m trying to cut out the subscription services...mostly cable TV. Thanks for the link to the access point. I'll look later. |
I am another very satisfied user of the Node 2i. It is a really enjoyable product. I think you will find that many of the posters who started with it and moved up the food chain probably did the same with every piece of equipment they own and are still looking. As how much they ultimately paid to be satisfied. |
Hi , I'm streaming Tidal to a Schiit Yiggy from a laptop. I’m happy with the sound but consider this . A wired source will sound better than wireless . And the type and quality of your digital cable will make a huge difference . Also Tidal’s MQA sounds good to me . So consider if you want MQA decoding in your system . And with Schiit products , they don’t support MQA . A friend just went to a total Bryston front end and it sounds very nice to me . Cheers , Mike B. |
Hi Mike. MQA might be good or not but this is not the issue. I just wish to have a CD quality sound with Tidal. The difference is not huge but it is something between pleasing and non-pleasing sound (Tidal sound is not that crystal clear). I did not try wireless (the modem is at another location), did you yourself compare the two options? Why it should be the difference if all the internet signal comes wireless? You mean the digital cable from the modem to the player? Cheers , Nodari |
Someone earlier mentioned Linn and although I have their streamer I think according to what OP said... That this won't be right for amplification. Linn is very analytical and if he likes a good bass line... Maybe Naim a better bet UK. Other streamer choice is the Austrian brand project... They do a S2 stream and separate DAC which get good reviews. Arcam do a SACD player which as a very good DAC built in (although the streamer part not quite as good as my TOTR linn klomax streamer... But a fraction of the price) |
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@artemus_5 I did not compare the two side by side. I have been told told by a knowledgeable dealer that upgrading from the Yamaha to the 2i would not be worthwhile. I am am currently looking at the microrendu or ultrarendu as a cost effective and modular approach to improving on the Yamaha. As an aside I just started a trial subscription with Qobuz after having been with Spotify for the past year and I am really impressed with the selection and sound quality and even more suprising is the quality of the metadata they offer about the recordings, history, composer, sidemen, producer, etc. It all struck me as very Roon-like without the cost of Roon. |
A hearty good day and thanks for all the info. I am digesting it all at this time. As you can see, I'm not an impulsive buyer. I have considered the WXC 50 Yamaha, Node 2 and now Aurender as a server. Probably after that, a R2R Dac, I know the Aurender is most expensive. And maybe I have to go some over my budget w/ the Aurender and MHDT Orchid Dac. This is not written in stone. Still may go with the Node2. But I've learned that in audio, everything counts. I learned that, when I begrudgingly paid $175 for a Oyaide Power outlet & it DID make a difference. Then when I tried pumice stones as footers for my CDP and it made a great difference in sound stage. I now discount very little. Anyway, that's where I'm at now. And again I thank you all. |
Rather than recommending specific hardware components, would someone be willing to answer a few basic questions first? The questions I had in mind are: 1) what are the advantages of streaming when compared to CDs, vinyl and digital downloads? Are there any disadvantages? 2) is it possible to use streaming services without the need for a computer, tablet or mobile phone? 3) how does the quality of hi res streaming services such as Qobuz compare with other hi res options such as SACD? 4) What are the basic components needed to connect a streaming service to an existing hifi system? Please note that I am not looking for brands - just a list of the components I will need in order to listen to streamed music through my existing hifi. Thank you. |
1) I have a Roon server with a couple of thousand CD tracks ripped to ALAC, vinyl tracks also ripped to ALAC, several albums worth of FLAC content from HDTracks, and a TIDAL subscription. For me, if I’ve got local digital copy, I listen to that (less impact on my internet feed). If I have a worn (albeit cleaned up) track on vinyl and it’s available on TIDAL, I listen to the TIDAL copy. So, the advantage I find is I can always find the cleanest copy somewhere. Disadvantage? If you’ve got limited internet bandwidth, you’ll get choppy/crappy quality from your stream.2) Um, no.3) AFAIK TIDAL and Qobuz highest quality streams are pretty much equivalent; I don’t have SACD, but I would say that in comparing my HDTracks content to the equivalent content on TIDAL, HDTracks wins. And certainly playing CDs on my H/K HD990/HK990 combo is better than TIDAL. But it’s the AMOUNT of high quality content on TIDAL that is the compelling factor in getting a subscription.4) You need a box with computing power that will receive a streaming signal, and an RCA stereo cable to connect it to an AUX input on your amp/receiver. I use a Sonos Connect and feed the digital output to the DAC in my HK990, and it’s great. |
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Joining the conversation as a relative newcomer to streaming: I am too coming from the analog end of the spectrum and about 18 months ago purchased a node 2. I am using an external DAC (Mark Levinson 30.5). While I am overall happy with the node 2 I have the occasional drop outs and I wonder if other owners have the same problem. I have a wifi setup and tested router positions and distances without improvements. I have a connection of 100Mb/s+ but I am still somewhat suspicious of the stability of the data service provided. Question: Do other node2 owners experience drop outs? Second question: If I would opt to upgrade to the next level streamer (w/o DAC) what would be the most economical choice? Is there a difference between node2 and node2i? |
I have a Node2i that I purchased on USAM a couple of weeks ago. I had drop outs and on the recommendation of someone on this forum I got this and now use a wired connection: https://www.bestbuy.com/site/netgear-universal-wi-fi-range-extender-with-ethernet-port-white/2733324.p?skuId=2733324 Problem solved. |
Thank you both for your responses. I worked with tan extender as well but at then ensured that the router is in close proximity to the node2. I also discovered that the distance of my iPad (I am controlling the node2 with my iPad via Bluetooth) to the node2 had an influence on the amount of dropouts. Anyway, it seems to be a well known issue so I may run a wire. Any suggestion on an upgrade for the streamer? |
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So, I have learned somethings and I'd thought I'd post. The Hans Beekhuysen book was a helpful primer on digital audio, but the real proof came with the purchase of a reclocker. I bought a Musical Fidelity X-DACv3 a couple of weekends ago because it matched the rest of my Musical Fidelity office system. The X-DAC didn't have USB so first I used a HDMI splitter to run the digital signal from my 2016 MacBookPro to the dac. Sounded ok. Then I ordered a Schiit Eitr reclocker off of ebay to push the digital signal into the dac, and sound improvement was drastically improved. So, in conclusion, a iPhone may be able to play a FLAC and the pink light on an AQ Dragonfly Red lights up indicating that MQA files from Tidal are playing from your iPhone, but the sound you get is not nearly as good as a well clocked digital signal. So my new question is: Would a fancy digital streamer sound better than an iPhone pushing its digital signal through a good reclocker? |
