Recroom: I answer each and every email I receive. Emailing is not a perfect communication method. At times, emails might not get through or might inadvertently go into spam. I have checked my spam folder and found nothing.
If you did not get a response, you could have certainly contacted me through A'gon or called me directly. If you would prefer me to call you, send me a message through Audiogon, with your number and when you would like me to call.
Best Regards,
Jonathan Tinn
Evolution Acoustics |
" I realize the owners of EA are busy getting their new Chinese speaker project off the ground, but finding good office help should not be difficult."
Who is the SA? Again the Chinese name calling is a slap in the Face and uncalled for.
The Tinn man showed a lot of character to respond to you like he did.
Take back what you wrote!!
|
"The Tinn man showed a lot of character to respond to you like he did. "
He didn't show that character (or interest) to respond to my question above though. He lost a potential customer. |
Jtinns response to Recroom is certainly more gracious than Recrooms petty diatribe against EA deserves. Kudos to Jonathan for staying above the fray. Now THAT'S something to ponder. |
The price increase is not a false rumor.
It came from Jtinn to one of his customers. |
Jdec: Sorry I missed your post. I think you are being a bit tough on me. I really do not spend much time watching the forums... there are so many. I usually get on when someone calls me and tells me that there is something that needs my response. I would suggest for the future to call me if you need answers.
As of right now the price has not changed. When the time comes to "officially" announce a price increase, I will certainly post it in this thread since you are requesting that I do so. I hope that clarifies things.
Jonathan Tinn
Evolution Acoustics
PS. Thank you Glory and Mes. |
All,
I would like to set the record straight on a few things.
Firstly, after re-reading my comments about Evolution Acoustics and Jonathan I have to admit that they were too harsh, very negative and accusatory beyond the line of professionalism. For this I apologize openly to Evolution Acoustics and Jonathan and to the readers. These comments don’t really represent my general view but were derived out of acute frustration over a couple of days at the time and after the speakers were shipped and the issues I noted were happening. All that frustration led to a very hasty and “explosive” email.
Secondly, I later realized that Jonathan had been out of town and unable to respond to emails exactly at this time, so what I understood as a lack of support was a misunderstanding and misinterpretation on my part. After he returned , Jonathan responded in force and was extremely understanding and supportive of the situation. His explanation of the details of what happened helped to ease my mind and resolved my concerns. I can understand this because I often travel and sometime go through days without being able to respond to important emails.
Thirdly, and most importantly, Jonathan and Evolution Acoustics are indeed a top notch outfit and readers should not take my particular situation too much too heart. What I didnÂ’t say in my post was all of the good things Jonathan had done in terms of customer service. I had originally planned to buy the speakers close to one year or more ago. Throughout the wait period, Jonathan was always good to explain the status and what was leading to some of the delays. Throughout these conversations and emails I actually enjoyed talking to him and learned a few things about stereos, but especially some tips on great hard to find records, which were a little easier for me to find in Japan. I said all that to say that Jonathan is a cool guy and very good to talk to and was supportive through the process.
Having started a joint venture in China over the last two years I can certainly understand the potential for delays! You will be promised the world, but things get done “when they get done”. The delays on the speakers were understandable, and I hung on for the entire period waiting for them. It was worth the wait.
They are still breaking in, but I can say that these are truly special speakers. The fit and finish and manufacturing quality are exceptionally good. But the sound, is the real thing. You get A LOT of speaker for the money. They are extremely dynamic (macro/micro), very clear, transparent and open across the range. This adds up to very lifelike presentation. The bass is actually pretty good and surprising for the size. I expect this will further improve with break-in. The real amazing driver is the tweeter. This is an incredible unit that seems to cover a large range.
Also, for those worried whether or not these will sound good with inexpensive gear, you need not worry. IÂ’m using a $1,200 integrated amp (Exposure 2012S2) and it sounds amazing. In fact I believe that these speakers will greatly elevate the quality of most inexpensive systems.
Anyway, IÂ’ll report back after more break-i n. But I wanted to say thanks to Jonathan for his comments above, to retract my concerns about customer service, and to thank them for their support through the waiting period and for such an exceptional speaker. Even though the shipping was expensive, this was one of the most worthwhile investments I ever made. Trust me and the others, you will not be disappointed with the sound of these speakers. |
Aol,
Wow that is rare in this day and age in Ref. to your last post. Taking back harsh words is a sign of true character. To me that's the sound of heaven. |
Lets keep this thread about the MMMicroOne and not about trying to bash Jtinn and Evolution Acoustics. I have dealt with Jonathan many times and he has always been honest and you can get in contact with him. It may take a few times to get in touch with him but it is because he is busy and does have a life outside of work. Now back on subject........
I received the MMMicroOne's over a week ago. They were in two wooden crates,speakers in one and stands in the other. They are very well packed, with no chance of damage to any of the parts. They are more expensive to ship because of the crates but it is well worth the extra expense. The stands are well engineered and attach to the speakers easily. Don't expect much for the first few hours of break in. After about 25 hours they sounded good but it took around 100 hours of break in, to really appreciate just how exceptional these speakers are. They keep getting better and better as time goes by. They are as Aoliviero described above. I think Evolution Acoustics should be proud of the great engineering job that they did on the MMMicroOne. The speakers disappear and have a wide and deep soundstage. They are very coherent through the lows to mids to highs and have great micro and macro detail. I do not know how they get so much bass out of these small speakers.
Those that want a great speaker for the money, then I would put the MMMicroOne on the top of your list. They would be bargain at $5,000 and are a steal at $2,500. Those of us that took a chance on these speakers have been rewarded with a great speaker at a great price. Those that are worried about the price going up, should have got on board earlier. I do not see how they can produce a speaker of this quality and sound at this price point...but they did. It will be a bargain even if the price increases. |
Hi everyone. I'm still breaking my MMMicroOne's in, so no substantive comments yet. But two quick questions for those of you who have them:
(1) If your amp has multiple taps, are you running the speakers on the 4ohm taps or the 8ohm taps? I have a little Jolida 202BRC and it has both 4 and 8 ohm taps.
(2) If your speakers are fully broken in and in the best position for your room, did you spike them to the floor? My listening room is in the basement, with hardwood floors over concrete, so stability/footfalls isn't really a problem. I'm just wondering how much benefit there would be from installing them with spikes rather than not doing so (once they're broken in and positioned, of course). |
Jtinn, I admit I over reacted a bit, sorry about that and thanks for your answer to my question. |
Hi Chip:
1. Try the 4 ohm taps.
2. I would still recommend using the spikes. It will clean up the bass and should tighten things up.
Hi Jdec: It was my pleasure. Feel free to call me anytime.
Aoliviero: Thank you for the support!
Best Regards,
Jonathan Tinn
Evolution Acoustics |
Wow!! Maybe Revolution Acoustics would be a better name!
Conventional wisdom holds that you should spend ~40% of your budget on speakers to have a "balanced" system. But with these little guys you can spend 10, or even 20, times the speaker cost on upstream components and these speakers would still not be outclassed. I have heard them as demonstrated at the shows (Playback Designs DAC + darTZeel amps) and the sound is absolutely luscious. That $2.5k speakers can be perfectly paired with ~$40k in electronics is just completely amazing. This is revolutionary!
The bass extension is unbelievable for something so small - absolutely no need for a passive crossover & subwoofer (in small-medium rooms). Even on the lowest notes of an upright bass, the pitch is well defined: no one-note boomy bass here!
Female vocals in the midrange are eerily real - I never thought I'd be in the same room as Joni Mitchell. Do note that these speakers sound a bit bright when new, so don't pass judgement too soon with regard to the high end / tonal balance.
There seems to be a lot of noise about a possible price increase. If the price doubled to $5k, the same as the B&W 805's, the microOnes would still be a huge bargain.
Most highly recommended! |
am the new owner of a pair of MMMicroOnes. Hadn't read any reviews or even heard of them when I went to audition them. The first time I wasn't able to understand how they sounded so good for that price. Went back a second time with my test CDs, since it didn't work the first time. Still can't understand how they sound so good, but had to buy them. Now I'm looking for the rest of the system. Had to sell the old one in Brazil and had been looking for speakers since relocating to the US (used to have KEF Reference 201.2). That part of the search is done.
Next step: amplification. I feel that these speakers need high current to get the best of them. Will probably spend about 3x their price and they will still deserve it... that is, if I don't find an absolute bargain amp similar to these. |
it looks like I'll be mating the MMMicroOnes with Gryphon. Very curious about how that will work out. My last amp was a Gryphon, but an old entry-level model (which was still great). Will update once it arrives.
Best regards
André |
One thing that seems to help tighten focus and bass is loading the stand risers with lead shot. I also wrapped a lead shot-filled ankle weight around the bottom of the risers for a total of about 20 lbs per speaker. Finding lead shot here in CA was very difficult as there have been environmental movements to prevent lead poisoning of animals but adding the shot was well worth the effort. I have about 15 hours on the MicroOnes and they are starting to open up more and the spatial solidity is astounding. |
Andre,
Looking forward to your experience and some system pics. |
Pushing 100 hours on mine. The first 25/40 hours they sounded great but small and closed in. Â Now it has opened up and sounds as big as my floor standing Zu Def2 speakers. Got a sub coming but really don't miss much bass with these speakers. On certain tunes you really do need one but I am still quite happy with the bass without one for now.
What a great buy this has been. Running them with an ASR amp and will be hearing these speaker driven by the BMC integrated amp @ RMAF.
Sent from my iPhone
|
Looks like source is solved. Resolution Audio Cantata was the choice and a blind one, too. Got a great deal that I just couldn't let slide by. On paper it looks more than interesting: Gryphon and Resolution Audio Cantata. Tomorrow I should get my speakers, which Scott, my local dealer and fellow audio enthusiast, will drop off at my home. Great guy, btw, and deep connoisseur of audio equipment.
Hopefully I'll get source and amp by the end of the week.
Very curious as to how the sound will be, but everything will need a lot of burn-in.
Cables will be the ones that I brought from my last system: Argento Silver Cables for speakers, Zu Varial MkIII XLR for ICs (which I intend to change very soon), ASI Liveline and Rega for power. Used to have a Stereovox XV2 and am very interested in the XV-Ultra, since I left the former with my brother. Any suggestions regarding digital cables will be more than welcome, since I will have to buy one now.
After burn-in will look into cables again.
Will keep you posted, Milpai.
Best regards
André |
|
Filled the steam of the stands with Micro Bearing Conductive Steel from Star Sound Technologies. Then I installed the cheese Wizz spikes and placed them on the Equarack speaker Footers. Well it was ......
So I called Robert from Star Sound and was told he could design a super stand for these speakers for around 1.5K. What I heard with the Equarack Footers makes the SS stands a no brainer. |
I don't quite understand how the Equarack Footers relates to making the SS stands a no brainer.
The Equarack footers are an "isolation" device. The SS is a "coupling" device. Two very different approaches. Not necessarily good idea to mix the two.
Are you saying the Equarack was not an improvement?
Thanks! |
I have had both products under different speakers and both work in a big way. My point is the whole stand needs to be re-designed and SS can do that. |
Gary,
Let us know how your stand turns out.
If you happen to need six 20" long, 1.5" diameter brass rods for it that are tapped for 1/4"-20 threaded AudioPoints, let me know. I have these available since I went with 26" long rods. You can see them in my system pictures.
Chuck |
So you're going to put a $2K stand under a $2k speaker.
I'm not ridiculing that, mind you. I just think it's funny the way we do things in the high end. lol |
Glory, As I was left with only LSA1 Statements but already had 8 SP Ultra Fives from use on my Tidals, I decided to put three under each of the inexpensive LSA stands. I was just amazed by the improvement. I never experimented with the big Ultra Fives directly under the monitors. This is, of course, $4200 worth of isolation under $2700 worth of speakers, but it was great sound. |
Will these speakers be at RMAF this weekend? |
Prez,
The difference is major with the correct stands/Footers under speakers.
1.5K stands under 2K speakers. These speaker deserve respect.
Thanks Chuck I will let you know what Robert decides to do/make. |
First day of RMAF, met JT today and listened to the MMMicroOne. The speakers sounded great! I was impressed by the dynamics and treble most but it was especially impressive because he was playing Led Zeppelin and I know that recording doesn't normally sound so good. I will go back for a longer more detailed listen before the weekend is over. |
|
Glory, I'm well aware of how important it is to have good, solid and well built stands under a speaker.
I'm just not of the opinion that they need to be "correct".
A well built stand is nothing special. It's not rocket science. And I personally don't think it takes $1500 to do it. YMMV. And whatever floats your boat. |
@Peterayer - Yes, they will be at RMAF (Atrium Tower Room 443). |
The cost of a speaker compared to the speaker stand should`nt matter.High quality speakers deserve good stands. Some speakers more expensive than the MM Micro one sound inferior and no stand(regardless of its cost ) will change that reality. The focus should be audio performance quality not an arbitrary speaker/stand price ratio.
Regards, |
Peterayer,
That is what Geared4me mentioned above. He heard them at RMAF yesterday. |
I went back to their room,433,yesterday afternoon to find a line of people waiting to get in. Unfortunately it turned out that they had actually closed the room two hours before the end of the show. I will try again this morning when the room is most likely to be open. |
Prdprez,
I'm sorry, but I don't understand your reasoning. More than even equipment on good stands, if a speaker is vibrating or moving around at all, what happens? You have a box moving around in space sending out music or sound waves, but sending it in slightly different directions as it moves. How would you expect that senario to give you the best and a consistant sound?
Chuck |
Thanks, My buddy is at RMAF now and I hope he has a chance to hear these speakers in room #443. I missed the show this year but have fond memories of RMAF 2010. I look forward to the reports and the photos. |
Krell_man. My point was that I don't think it takes too much to build a very good stand for a small speaker. The stands from Sound Anchors are about as overbuilt as I've ever seen. Incredibly heavy, sturdy, and inert. All the things you want from a speaker stand. They make a single post stand that would work great with the MMMicro One. And even filled and tuned, it's less than $350.
A friend of mine has a pair of their four post stands and I'm convinced you could park a semi truck on top of those things. And absolutely dead silent.
So, yes, a good quality stand is absolutely important. But when something like Sound Anchor exists, I just don't see the point in a $1500 brass stand. No matter how "super" they call it. I don't quite understand how it would be any better. Well, it might look prettier. I'll grant that. But performance, not sure how that would work. (Or why it would matter.)
Thats all I'm saying. Not trying to say that a good stand isn't important. |
A well built stand is nothing special. It's not rocket science. Prdprez, spoken from personal experience? Conjecture? I personally believe in mechanical grounding and its positive effects on a system. I use a stand mounted speaker where the stand/speaker union is critical to performance. Without the stand, the speaker is just not the same. I have used run-of-the-mill stands on speakers in the past, and I can understand why you would arrive at those conclusions. |
Hi Agear,
What do you mean by mechanical grounding? By this, do you mean coupling to the floor and speaker? (versus isolation) That's no more complicated than using a heavy enough stand and spikes that will lock into the floor and a hard connection with the speaker, such as a spike interface between the speaker and stand. Neither of these are very expensive to implement.
Or is there something more complicated to it that I'm missing?
Thanks! |
Peterayer, well I spent a good deal of time listening to the MMMicros driven by the new BMC integrated amp. They played a tape of Hugh Masekela's Stimela, and I was just in awe! I have never heard this so perfectly captured. No doubt much was attributable to the tape, but the speakers never protested and captured even the thunderous drumming.
Prdprez, one of my experiences this summer belies your argument. I had the LSA1 Statement speakers on the sand filled steel and cheap speaker stands. I have four of the mindblowing StilllPoints Ultra Fives sitting around awaiting my new BMC speakers. I decided to try them under the LSA stands. I was shocked at the improvement. We are beset by vibrations in seeking realism in our music reproduction. |
in case it has not already been pointed out, at RMAF the MMMicro stand's spikes were resting on the Wave Kinetics 2UN's decoupling footers.
i'm using these on my loaner Unifield 3's and i will be using 2 sets of 8 on my MM7's.
these really work well. |
Audiocircle report for the RMAF, featuring these speakers:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=91f7bo4op3i0ad64dgfmcj2567&topic=110588.0 |
Tbg,
Thanks for sharing your experiences. I am familiar with the LSA stands. I assembled a pair for a friend of mine. They are nice looking. And the fact that they come with the filler is kinda cool. But I would hardly consider them a "Solid" stand. At least the ones that I put together. They were a combination of wood and extruded aluminum, held together by short metal screws. Hardly what I would consider sturdy. So I'm not surprised by your experience. I know flimsy stands are not something you'd expect a lot of performance from. But my example is far from that.
Beyond that, adding a device like the still points is a whole other ball game anyway. Besides the fact that they are an isolation device, they are items beyond the scope of the stand.
So my curiosity still stands. How is it that the stand itself, IF built solidly (like Sound Anchors), makes that much difference and how does $1500 for threaded brass increase performance over solid welded steel? (~$350) We could argue the effectiveness of isolation versus coupling. But as far as I'm understanding so far that is outside the scope of the stand itself.
Anyway, I just want to reiterate that I'm not trying to be combative. I'm just looking for reasons as to why one stand will be all that different from another. (Assuming it is solid and well built!) Always looking to learn something! |
Prdprez, do you speak from experience? What stands are you using now? In the past? That will help frame this discussion. |
Prdprez, everything has a resonant frequency, so all stands sound different. Filling a stand with lead shot greatly lowers the resonant frequency. Isolation and coupling are the same thing, just different frequencies. |
Prdprez, what isolation products have you tried with your speakers?
Mike, I know the Wave Kinetics is supposed to be a good product (a derivative of Stanford engineering). I would be curious to see what they would offer in terms of stand design or modifications beyond the use of footers. Starsound technologies is also an engineer-driven company and has a fine product. The seminal white paper and foundation for their particular brand of isolation is also derived from the Stanford engineering department.
I have screwed around with Stillpoints with my current speakers (which their stands were designed around), Sistrum stands for electronics and now room/wall grounding, and the Equarack footers also under electronics. As expected with audio evolution, these products all outperformed my older generation stands that Prdprez is presumably referring to. By extension, these same principles are or can be applied to the speaker cabinet itself. Gone are the days of MDF, black hole, and steel rod bracing.... |
Well, I didn't want to hi-jack this thread. But perhaps this stand discussion will be useful to EA owners.
Anyway, my "experience" isn't really all that significant. Many years ago I used a stand from a company whose name I can't even remember. But it was simply a 4inch square column that was welded to flat plates both top and bottom. Everything was made from 5 gauge steel. By itself, it rang like a bell. Filled with wet sand, absolutely dead silent.
Like I mentioned already, I did assemble an LSA stand for a friend, while he was admiring his new LSA speakers. Cool looking but not really designed with performance in mind. And I also have a friend who owns a pair of Sound Anchor stands. Those beasts are probably 100lbs and also dead silent. If I ever used a stand mounted speaker again, for sure those are the ones I would get. Hands down. So, that's it. I don't even use stands anymore. When I did I actually went to the effort of literally bolting my speakers to the stand. And that had a tremendous effect on performance. But at that point, my speakers and stand were essentially one piece. Seemed like a good enough idea at the time. And the results proved true.
So my perspective is not one of lots of audiophile experience. But I do work in physics. So I'm just trying to apply basic physical laws. Ie. The first priority is for the stand to be sturdy. Any extraneous movement or flexure will be detrimental to the sound. This should be self evident. I would probably give mass as the second most important factor. Again, because of simple physics. The ratio of the mass of the moving diaphragms versus what they are pushing against should probably be as disparate as possible. This is pretty much proven in practice. Just look at the mass of speakers like Wilson, Rockport, Magico, Focal, etc. etc.
Anyway, the last factor would be ringing within the stand itself. In the same way that it's not desirable to have your speaker cabinet resonate, it's not good to have your stands resonate. I know there are a tiny few speaker designers who think it's a good thing to have the cabinet resonate freely. But, with all due respect, I think it's safe to say that they are fringe. Certainly the vast majority of designers and listeners recognize the benefits of an inert speaker cabinet. I would assume the same for the stands.
So as far as resonating goes. Yes, everything has a resonate frequency. But that's not the whole story. That frequency also has a Q. Steel has a high Q. So with the stands I used years ago, if you yelled at the right pitch you could get the stands to audibly ring without even touching them. But you fill them with wet sand and they become like a rock. Literally. Not only does the resonant frequency drop through the floor. But their Q drops even more so. They don't "ring" at all. It was like having my speakers bolted to stone.
So thats my perspective on the stand itself. It bears no opinion on accessories added to the stand, such as Wave Kinetics or Still points. I'm simply talking about the stand itself. And I think it's safe to say that, as an extreme, you don't want a flimsy and lightweight stand that rings like a bell. You want the opposite of that. Building something that achieves those ends is not complicated. Granted, there may not be a lot of companies doing it. But that's why I keep mentioning Sound Anchors. They are ridged as hell. That are heavy as hell. And they have extremely low resonant Q. They don't ring at all. AND, they are not at all expensive.
Now, I am well aware of our audiophile penchant for spending lots of money on gear. But I don't think it's always necessary. This is why I inquire and ask questions in this regard. If welded steel is more ridged and heavier than threaded brass. (and it is.) And if brass has a higher Q than steel. (it does.) How do these things add up to better performance? Especially at 4-5 times the price.
I'm not saying it won't. I'm just asking for someone to explain to me how it does.
Thanks! |
I believe I have read that the best engineering practice is to couple an audio component to something that is more stable and decouple it from something less stable. Since I have a cement floor under my carpet I couple my MMMicroOnes to the floor using Star Sound Sistrum Stands that use brass cones. Conversely, I decouple my turntable from my equipment stand since it is less stable. I have spent a lot of time trying different vibration control schemes and my results confirm this rule of thumb. |
What if the resonant frequency range of a vibrating speaker stand is above or below that of the human ear? Would that leave a cleaner or more open space in the environment for our ears to hear more sound from the loudspeaker?
Once a stand is integrated with any compact monitor or floor standing loudspeaker the sound characteristics of the speaker automatically change based on the speaker relationships from the added mass of the stand, combined frequencies between the stand and speaker and the speed transformation of energy related to the acoustic and mechanical grounding applications.
Having auditioned multiple types of monitors and stands in recording studio suites we have found that that the supporting framework is extremely critical to any loudspeaker presentation. Speakers will sound good, better or just different based on the medium that they are placed on.
Add to that, if you have never experienced a speaker stand that truly and measurably increases performance then you may never know or understand what differences exist.
Since the speaker support provides such a defining influence to the end result, would anyone ever think that the importance of the stand design rivals that of the speaker?
Our choice of products now in place consist of a single technical approach to coupling and employ materials that when vibrating is beyond the audible range of the human ear so in essence we are not hearing the stand but are getting much more quality in sound out of the speaker.
Compact monitor enthusiasts should experiment and evaluate various stands for the results attained could easily redefine listening pleasure.
Disclaimer: My father works with a commercial company that employs various forms of vibration management so I am biased, have had greater access to knowledge from experience and have applied various techniques and multiple grounding principles in recording studio settings. |
