When using ethernet for hooking up streaming devices and dacs, what cat level of ethernet cable should be used. Is there any sonic improvement by going to a higher dollar cat 7 or 8 cable?
@lordmeltoni am very consistent in my posting, you are correct. I know this topic very well, and people with out any knowledge like @nonoiseargue fanatically. They fall in three categories really, some places all three, “I made a change with XYZ widget, and my system was transformed to the golden system, and if you make the same change everything will be perfect. And if you didn’t hear a different 1) you don’t have good resolving system enough 2) you system doesn’t cost enough money, 3) your hearing is impaired (@nonoise is in this category).
@nonoise you did. And it was apparent for everyone that actually have knowledge. And again, I don’t hold a grudge from a previous thread, never said that. I said that, in this thread, you made outlandish claims, that you now have admitted you did not understand, posted something that wasn’t relevant to
your claim, stating it refuting everything everyone else is saying, while supporting your claim, when it didn’t do anything of the the sort. People like you are about 1 thing, you cannot be wrong. Well, you are, and somehow you admitted to it too, so a learning experience for you I guess.
you are all noise, and no signal. All you should have posted was something like “anecdotally, I replaced a cable and heard a difference, but I don’t know anything about how Ethernet works”.
I like non-noise. And what he thinks. And how he approaches this hobby.
Fred shows the worst of this place, of this hobby. Have learnt to not read anything he says. Good thing too, because my system is sounding the best it ever has.
I know. Start your own thread Freddy, saying whatever you believe. People will come.
@fredrik222can you list your components? Streamer, dac, amplification and speakers, interconnects, speaker cables?
How resolving of a system are you leveraging to test the cable related changes.
@12manywhen your wife swaps the ethernet cables on the streamer make sure she power cycles the unit. Shut down (not standby). Swap, power it back on.
What streamer, dac and digital cable type are you using or plan on using?
Nope, not in the least. I learned some along the way. My only sin was conflating loss of sound quality with data loss and noise over an ethernet cable. You pointed that out earlier in the thread. BFD. The point has always been about reducing noise on an ethernet cable.
The rest was you planting a flag on this mountain of a mole hill looking for revenge from some earlier, ancient thread, to which you admitted. You can't hear what others do with an ethernet cable swap and avoided answering my questions. That speaks a lot to your character. Now, back to your bottle and I'll get back to my system, which is way more resolving than yours.
I'm answering your question about how a packet can be lost. The cables and devices in question help to filter out noise better than industry standard ones. Your recitation above is all Greek to me but it does go to show you know your job but have average hearing at best, as other members have already pointed out. Probably why you went to the bother of writing it all up.
With your wireless setup, and how much RFI gets into that?
@nonoise No, not at all. Explain how a cable fixes any of these. I am very curious have a cable will fix these, especially oversubscription and excessive delay (article mentions 2 seconds).
Please go on, show us that you know what you are talking about.
Does oversubscription, errors and excessive delay cover that? The article makes it clear that it occurs and needs to be monitored. Any how....members here do hear a difference, for the better, all the while ignoring your advice.
Now. practice what you preach, and just go away. Put down that bottle, or battle flag you carry around and get a life.
In general, just to show how small of an issue this is, my primary switch has an uptime of 82 days, and transmitted somewhere upwards to 3.3 billion packets in total, with 0 packets lost.
Physical interface: ge-1/0/11, Enabled, Physical link is Up
@nonoise again, all noise. a lot of very bombastic noise.
I'll just ask this one last time, again.
And as for the rejection of packets, tell me why this article refutes that and even goes farther than you're willing to admit that it's not a perfect setup.
Your claim, explain how that refutes anything I have said. The article does not address the electrical signal. Or just go away. Your noise is unnecessary.
@nonoise you just don’t get it do. Well, didn’t expect anything more. You post nonsense, not no noise, claims allover this thread, and then some random link to "back it up", where you either don’t understand what you claimed and posted as source, or probably more likely, is too arrogant to even care. You are correct in your mind, period. Doesn’t matter what you say, you are correct, end of story, because you said it. If someone else say it, they are wrong, only you can be correct, ever.
You are exactly the opposite of your name, all noise, no bite (or understanding even of what an argument is).
continue to "refute" things with noise, while others may actually want to learn.
After going back to the video, I noticed that the schematics are only available to Patreon contributors so I found this site that actually builds it along with the video from Mr. Carlson's YT channel.
It's much more sensitive than the junk posted earlier and should be an enjoyable task for those that are handy with an iron.
Well then, what's stopping you from getting one, sussing out your system, and getting back to us?
You are correct, I don’t like you.
That tells me all I need to know, freddy. Now go and bother all the other members who dissed you as well (even worse) and stop hanging on every word I say.
And even PS Audio is making the claim that it doesn’t make a difference.
I didn’t hear a difference either when I put an AQ Cinnamon Ethernet cable between my router and music server. But when I put a network switch between my router and music server the sound improved. That prompted me to try the FMC’s and optical cable between my router and music server. That was a large improvement in the sound. No guess work about it.
@nonoiseeverything you post is outlandish and incorrect on this subject. Here is a cheap device available for purchase doing the exact same thing: https://www.winradio.com/home/erd.htm
You are correct, I don’t like you. But I have already stated the reason why, you make outlandish claims, post some irrelevant link that is supposed to support your claim and refute others, but it doesn’t do any of the sort, and when called out, you ignore it and do it again with the next claim, over and over again.
there are many members that doesn’t hear a difference. And even PS Audio is making the claim that it doesn’t make a difference.
The device he came up with is different from the usual noise makers out there which is why he's posted the design of it, online, for free. That video is from 2021. If you're so smart, why don't you look it up, build it, do a sweep of your system, and get back to us?
Nothing outlandish in my claims and you still harp on and on which tells me you do hold a grudge from something from the past since you sidestepped my inference. What was it, exactly?
And again, is that one member correct and you don't hear any difference due to your hearing, even with wireless?
@nonoise ok, so again you show your ignorance on the subject. The author of the video created a device to measure RFI and then output the measurements as audible noises. That is not something that is new at all, and is done daily in the world of science and in daily life. X Ray in the medical field is an excellent example of this.
You keep making outlandish claims, post a link to something that isn’t even relevant , and when you are called out on it, you flee to the next outlandish claim.
why are you even on here when you don’t want to learn?
From the time stamp on your reply, you didn't watch the whole video, did you? Then you go about with pound-your-chest pronouncements on how great you are and how uniformed I am and then have the audacity to say more members here don't hear a difference? Pure hubris.
If you bothered to watch the entire video, the host invented a device that can "hear" the effects of RFI on any cable (even ethernet) or component. And to think you're presently using a wireless set up due to a renovation project, with all the attendant RFI polluting your system's sound. Do you hear the difference?
Maybe lordmelton was correct in his assessment of you.
But, by all means, keep on attacking me and while you're at it, try some of the other members lest one think you have some personal grudge against me for some other, past posts that didn't deal with audio. That would tell me a lot as well.
@12manyGoodonya! At least you have an open mind, and I totally get wanting to do a blind comparison. There are some here who refuse to even try something just because they don’t “believe” it’ll make a difference, which I honestly don’t even understand. Especially with cables as they can be so easy to try with low shipping costs, free trial periods, etc. I’d be very interested in what you find, and I may well do the same in reverse just to see if I may have wasted $200 starting out with better Ethernet cable.
I didn't do a blind test, but the arguments on this site and other are that the changes are so dramatic both with a "audiophile" cable and "audiophile" switch that you don't have to. You will hear it right away. I didn't.
Gave back the UpTone Etherregen to my buddy, and I think I still have Moon Audio cable somewhere that I paid $200+ for to try...
@nonoise And there are even more that have not heard a difference at all!!!!
And again, you put up a statement, in this case
And as for the rejection of packets, tell me why this article refutes that and even goes farther than you're willing to admit that it's not a perfect setup.
And when questioned, you realize again you have no idea what you are talking about and can't support the claim you made. This YouTube video is yet another example of your ignorance on the subject. I never said there was NO noise in your home, I said that the noise in your home does not matter for Ethernet that is designed to combat this. I even stated that a 300 ft run through a factory floor will likely cause issues, but a 10ft run at home will not cause issues.
I get why you say I am impossible, I shoot down every single "argument" you have because they are fictional arguments, no facts or even physics to support your claims whatsoever. But the better position to take would perhaps be "hey, what I am saying doesn't make any sense and doesn't hold up to scrutiny, and I really don't know what I am talking about, so maybe I should learn more".
As for the improvement, easily explained by confirmation bias like I stated before. Again, there is no possible theoretical improvement, the products in the "audiophile" Ethernet category doesn't live up to a single claim they make, yet some people hear a difference. Why? Because your brain works that way.
In the end, spend the money on whatever you want, it is your system, you are the one that need to be happy, but don't argue fanatically that an AudioQuest cable will turn your system into something magical that the neighbor across the street can hear a difference in.
You're quite the impossible person to deal with, aren't you? The vehicle analogy was snark. You take yourself way too seriously. As for the AUDIO part, there are way too many people here who've heard the difference and said so just in this post, not to mention all the other threads.
You yourself doubted that it couldn't get any better and tried it yourself but did not hear a difference. That's on you. Others have and did hear an improvement. Get over it. And while you're at it, watch this video:
I will definitely try an expensive ethernet cable to see if I can hear a difference after I buy a separate DAC. I will only do it with a blind test though because otherwise it would be meaningless. I will put a blindfold on or put up a barrier and my wife can swap the cables. It will be easy to swap out a 3 foot cable between my switch and steamer. I personally don’t think I will hear a difference because I know how Ethernet receivers work. If it was not a blind test, I would introduce that bias into my listening. I can have my son try it as well. He is younger and plays acoustic guitar so he has a good ear.
In my mind, I believe it will be a waste of time because I know what occurs in an Ethernet receiver and my test won’t change anyone’s else mind because I will be told I have shitty ears or a shitty system, both of which may be true. It will still be fun to try it and who knows maybe I am wrong. We do blind tests with tequila as well to see if we can guess the brand or pick the expensive one.
@nonoise Doesn't change anything what vehicles you use as a comparison. Your content or the AUDIO part is not changed, at all, whatsoever, in anyway shape form or fashion.
Tell me why so many more say it doesn't change anything?
In what way does this article refute anything that I have said? That article doesn't even discuss the physical media.
you are, again, absolutely wrong. USB and HDMI is not the same as Ethernet, and do not have a multi layer stack of error detection and correction.
Go back to slowly read what I said and you'll see I used the word "tactic" and did not say it was the same thing. As for your choice of vehicles, I'd frame it as Amazon truck vs. a Ferrari.
As for not improving the signal, tell me why so many others here profess to hear an improvement and you're not addressing the matter to them.
And as for the rejection of packets, tell me why this article refutes that and even goes farther than you're willing to admit that it's not a perfect setup.
@nonoiseAnd this doesn’t even consider that none of the products that supposedly improve the electrical signal over Ethernet actually do not improve the signal. Not a single one out there that claims to be “audiophile” Ethernet improves the electrical signal, at all. It is super easy to measure this, and many people have.
you are, again, absolutely wrong. USB and HDMI is not the same as Ethernet, and do not have a multi layer stack of error detection and correction.
But way more important, and here is what you cannot seem to grasp, doesn’t matter how much information is given to you, the signal does not need to be perfect, as long as it is discernible a 1 or a 0, the signal is acceptable. There is no improvement in “packet quality” if you have a perfect signal, because there is no such thing as packet quality. What you are saying is essentially that your package from Amazon will have significantly better content if it was delivered in a Rolls Royce vs an Amazon truck, which is ridiculous. You get what you ordered regardless if it was delivered in an Amazon truck or a Rolls Royce.
If your packet somehow, including all the way down to the components of what you ordered, is damaged, Ethernet/TCP/IP will reject it and request another package. USB on the other hand will give the box a quick glance, and if the box looks ok, it will accept it.
Thanks @tonywinga- I purchased two of the same $86 5V supplies off of Amazon and they have worked well. The same manufacturer does not list a 9V model but I was able to find 9V models that would work from either Small Green Computer or AliExpress.
I got them on Amazon. I’m using 5 VDC LPS units. My FMC’s run on 5 Volts. I haven’t seen many 9 VDC LPS’s that aren’t more expensive. I’m using a Keces 19 VDC LPS for my music server. Very well built but close to a grand.
I also added a pair of $85 linear power supplies to power the FMC’s.
Hello, would you please share where you purchased the $85 LPSs for your FMCs? I can easily find 5v supplies that I use with other peripherals but I am having a harder time finding the 9v supplies required by the FMCs.
@nlitworldGlad to see and hear that you noticed it too. That is what I noticed too - more detail, and who, when partaking in this hobby, doesn’t want more audio detail?! I know it took years to train my ears and brain to acknowledge perceiving this small amount of detail improvement. I’ve been living with basically the same system for years now (I’m very happy with the direction it’s gone, and its current status), and thoroughly recognize its tonal capability and sound quality. Every advancement in tweaking is/was analyzed pre and post. That might be the reason why by simply upgrading cables (and I’m not even talking about the hundred or thousand $$ kind), I can quickly recognize if a change brings an improvement or not.
I realize this discussion is about ethernet cables, but for example, for me, Kimber speaker cables never sounded right in my main basement system, to my ears. I remember giving them time to burn in, or whatever (never a big believer in letting cables "burn in"), and it just never happened for me, so they were gone (no offense meant towards anyone using them; they just didn’t work for me). Another example is the Blue Jeans Cable LC-1 (a very low capacitance single ended unbalanced cable). When I plugged it in, to my ears there was an immediate improvement in audio quality over the previous Belden 1505F (another low capacitance coaxial cable), so it was a keeper. From an engineering perspective, I’m already aware of how cable capacitance can affect high frequency performance (mainly in the analog world), so I make it a point to analyze that specification (along with cable shielding and construction) when comparing cables. I’m definitely quicker now (as compared to even 10 years ago), able to recognize a positive audio improvement when I hear it.
Getting back to ethernet cables, it’s possible some are looking for big earth shattering differences in audio improvement, when switching them out. Sorry to burst that bubble, but that is probably not to be expected in this case. But for those who can hear small minute changes in audio quality when comparing cables; if you haven’t already tried it; it’s time you did.
Ok, what the hell!?! I understand that everything makes a difference in the system, but I never would have thought ethernet cables for the 3ft between server pc to router and then 8ft router to streamer. There is so much more low level background detail it's not even funny. Swapped from the "superior" Cat7 from Newegg to BJC Cat6A and it is a world of difference. I was skeptical of any improvement for just an ethernet cable and that it'd been $40 wasted. On the contrary, that was $40 WELL spent. Thanks for the tip guys!
Thanks for continuing the valiant fight, I am though afraid that adherents of digital 1/0 religion will be lost on analogue arguments. In particular your argument on time allignment as well as noise affecting DA conversion emanating from stray ground, RMI/EFI or simply from processors working hard at error correction should give these 2 bit warriors something to think about.
BTW seems we are brothers in arm in choosing our moniker.
It's not just 1s and 0s. That's a gross oversimplification to make it seem unchallengeable. It's an electrical signal approximating a 1 and a 0 and it had better do it right or it's messed up.
Granted, this is represents what a USB cable has to deal with but it applies to all digital cables. The tactic of citing all the protocols and safeguards that ethernet uses to ensure proper and safe transmission have been similarly used for USB and HDMI defenders and it turned out they were wrong. I wonder if some detractors here were in that camp. Maybe they believe a variation of some kind of spooky action at a distance is at play here: that what is at one end is perfectly done at the other.
Minute amounts of noise that can find its way in will corrupt the signal. Now if you're slinging cable and want to transfer text, download legal files, or print your manifest to nail on a church door, then it's not that important because you're printing dead (static) junk. Music, which is always in motion, is a finer needle to thread.
Yes!!! And that is ok! Like stated numerous times, there is no theoretical or practical improvement. It is in your mind. And that is 100% ok.
I would hope that people would get past the, "it’s just 1’s and 0’s" and come up with an understanding as to why it works.
I do understand how it works, and that is why it just comes down to 1's and 0's! I have posted several links to really dig into this and dispel everything you can possibly think of. Ethernet is not USB or HDMI, there are layers and layers of error detection and correction, including the cable being balanced, and having common mode noise rejection built in to each receiver.
I put a link of fiber optic cable between my router and my music server. $70 investment. Ok, I also added a pair of $85 linear power supplies to power the FMC’s. I figured no sense adding noise back in with cheap wall warts. It made a significant improvement in the sound of streaming music. Is it a figment of my imagination? My cousin did the same thing on his system and was shocked by the improvement it made.
I would hope that people would get past the, "it’s just 1’s and 0’s" and come up with an understanding as to why it works. Then more progress can be made. But no progress will happen until we all move past the denial stage.
My internet still comes in on a cable- 500 mbs. My cousin has fiber coming up to his house.
Measurementalists enjoy no immunity to confirmation bias;
I disagree. Since the human and emotional factor is removed from the equation & decision making process (i.e. listening experience), then there is nothing to worry about. You would just look at the measurements, and go by what they say. Computers. What you hear does not matter, as what you hear is really what you want to hear anyways. It’s all in your mind. Just go by measurements. And you don’t have to do them yourself, use those available in the science internet. By removing the emotional aspect on your decision on audio, you have also eliminated the confirmation bias as well.
This makes the whole process of buying audio equipment and building very easy and time efficient. No need to spend years and decades to figure out what you like and enjoy (again, you hear what you want to hear, hearing means nothing). No need to spend money on tickets to audio shows, no need to visit audio stores. No need to waste time meeting audio friends and going to their house. None of that useless time consuming stuff. You just spend a few days reading stuff on science audio sites, and boom! you have yourself a system. With no confirmation bias whatsoever. No need to question how it sounds: because it measures great, it definitely sounds the best. Again, no confirmation bias, and not relying on such unreliable / archaic tools like your ears. And you save a lot of money, as the best measuring gear (therefore, best sounding) is typically very cheap.
@nonoise I don’t know to laugh out loud or cry at your level of ignorance, but first, I am not trying to offend anyone.
Second, what happened with your analogy with cable tv vs Blu-ray? Facts didn’t line up with your world view?
cables do make a difference, to a point, however, for Ethernet, a base cable provides adequate performance for all the protocols above, and there are many, to function properly. And that is what matters. The whole stack of protocols include numerous error detection and correction mechanisms, Ethernet specifically is balanced and includes common mode noise rejection. I get it, when you don’t understand any of it, it is easy to just throw money at it, and then tell yourself it made a difference.
I have of course tried it, and products like Etherregen, and there is no theoretical or practical difference in sound.
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