ETHERNET CABLES

I find it amazing that someone thinks that their 10ft cable at home can clean up a stream from thousands of miles away.
 

But, hey, each to their own, doesn’t matter that empirical evidence shows Ethernet cables do absolutely nothing, and it is not even theoretically possible to improve streaming with a network cable once you have good functioning network transmission,

@nonoise the irony with your name…. Lol.

but to your comment, there are literally people in this post saying that they went from muddled mess with 44/16 streaming and voila new cable and its pristine 44/16 streaming.

and there is an extremely low chance that you are introducing any noise in your house, and again, this noise doesn’t leak anywhere into any component with modern equipment. Ethernet today is way too robust.

No one is calling anyone crazy, however, it helps to learn a bit how your brain works when you are talking about something that is physically impossible to make any difference. Your brain is influenced in many ways, and if you are not careful, it is easy to “hear” a difference with any change, confirmation bias is a huge issue for the untrained. 

@nonoise 

22+ years of experience in the field of computer networking is informing that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Show one example of where noise enters the any device in a residential setting via a 10ft ethernet cable, or just fade away.

 

But before you fade away, since you called me naive, maybe you want to do research on how the brain works. There is a whole field of psychology that focuses on this. Here's the definition of confirmation bias: "Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values"

 

@cleeds 

Never said so, but what I did say was there is no theoretical improvement from going crazy and using fiberoptic and other crazy things for a 10 ft run in a residential applications. Simply put, if you hear an improvement, you are making yourself hear it subconsciously in a residential application. 

It's different if you were to run 300 ft of ethernet through a factory as an example. But if you do that and plug into your streamer, you have other issues with audible noise drowning out your music. 

If you want to learn about how cables actually work in Ethernet:

 

https://www.cablinginstall.com/home/article/16467568/the-myths-and-realities-of-shielded-screened-cabling

 

@nonoise  

My post was deleted when I asked you put up any evidence for your point. Regardless, there is no evidence for this. I've posted several links showing why noise in ethernet is a non-issue for residential applications. 

 

And you analogy about streaming TV vs Blu-Ray really shows your lack of understanding of anything relevant at all. The primary difference is bitrate for video and multichannel audio, and it has nothing todo with any type of noise at all. Cable TV is also using a lower bitrate, and is typically compressed with lossy compression. 

 

Here's one link that explains it to you:

 

Is it a figment of my imagination?

Yes!!! And that is ok! Like stated numerous times, there is no theoretical or practical improvement. It is in your mind. And that is 100% ok.

 

 

I would hope that people would get past the, "it’s just 1’s and 0’s" and come up with an understanding as to why it works.

I do understand how it works, and that is why it just comes down to 1's and 0's! I have posted several links to really dig into this and dispel everything you can possibly think of. Ethernet is not USB or HDMI, there are layers and layers of error detection and correction, including the cable being balanced, and having common mode noise rejection built in to each receiver. 

@soix  I have tried “audiophile” Ethernet cables, I have tried UpTone’s Etherregen, and I have not heard any difference. Normally for my system I have Cat6A in the wall, and Cat6A from the wall to my NAD M50.2, but due to a renovation project, I am actually using wireless right now. 
 

the point here is that there is no theoretical possible improvement, there is no measurable improvement, and yet some people hear a difference, but others doesn’t. To me, this then clearly lies with listener, not the cable or switch. And if people want to spend thousands on dollars on Ethernet “improvement”, that’s up to them, it is a hobby, do what you like and makes you happy, but don’t argue that it is a night and day difference for everyone, reduces noise, and that it cleans up the stream from Qobuz or some other platform, because it doesn’t.

ethernet cables are unlike any other cable, digital or otherwise, in your system. 

@nonoise  No, not at all. Explain how a cable fixes any of these. I am very curious have a cable will fix these, especially oversubscription and excessive delay (article mentions 2 seconds). 

Please go on, show us that you know what you are talking about.

@nonoise  ok, so again you show your ignorance on the subject. The author of the video created a device to measure RFI and then output the measurements as audible noises. That is not something that is new at all, and is done daily in the world of science and in daily life. X Ray in the medical field is an excellent example of this. 
 

You keep making outlandish claims, post a link to something that isn’t even relevant , and when you are called out on it, you flee to the next outlandish claim. 
 

why are you even on here when you don’t want to learn? 

@nonoise And this doesn’t even consider that none of the products that supposedly improve the electrical signal over Ethernet actually do not improve the signal. Not a single one out there that claims to be “audiophile” Ethernet improves the electrical signal, at all. It is super easy to measure this, and many people have.

@nonoise 

you are, again, absolutely wrong. USB and HDMI is not the same as Ethernet, and do not have a multi layer stack of error detection and correction. 
But way more important, and here is what you cannot seem to grasp, doesn’t matter how much information is given to you, the signal does not need to be perfect, as long as it is discernible a 1 or a 0, the signal is acceptable. There is no improvement in “packet quality” if you have a perfect signal, because there is no such thing as packet quality. What you are saying is essentially that your package from Amazon will have significantly better content if it was delivered in a Rolls Royce vs an Amazon truck, which is ridiculous. You get what you ordered regardless if it was delivered in an Amazon truck or a Rolls Royce.
 

If your packet somehow, including all the way down to the components of what you ordered, is damaged, Ethernet/TCP/IP will reject it and request another package. USB on the other hand will give the box a quick glance, and if the box looks ok, it will accept it.

 

 

@12many 

I didn't do a blind test, but the arguments on this site and other are that the changes are so dramatic both with a "audiophile" cable and "audiophile" switch that you don't have to. You will hear it right away. I didn't.

Gave back the UpTone Etherregen to my buddy, and I think I still have Moon Audio cable somewhere that I paid $200+ for to try... 

@nonoise  Doesn't change anything what vehicles you use as a comparison. Your content or the AUDIO part is not changed, at all, whatsoever, in anyway shape form or fashion. 

Tell me why so many more say it doesn't change anything?

In what way does this article refute anything that I have said? That article doesn't even discuss the physical media. 

 

Here is PS Audio's take on this subject:

Spoiler! No difference, data is data.

 

 

 

@nonoise everything you post is outlandish and incorrect on this subject. Here is a cheap device available for purchase doing the exact same thing: https://www.winradio.com/home/erd.htm

 

You are correct, I don’t like you. But I have already stated the reason why, you make outlandish claims, post some irrelevant link that is supposed to support your claim and refute others, but it doesn’t do any of the sort, and when called out, you ignore it and do it again with the next claim, over and over again.

there are many members that doesn’t hear a difference. And even PS Audio is making the claim that it doesn’t make a difference.

@nonoise  And there are even more that have not heard a difference at all!!!!

And again, you put up a statement, in this case

And as for the rejection of packets, tell me why this article refutes that and even goes farther than you're willing to admit that it's not a perfect setup.

And when questioned, you realize again you have no idea what you are talking about and can't support the claim you made. This YouTube video is yet another example of your ignorance on the subject. I never said there was NO noise in your home, I said that the noise in your home does not matter for Ethernet that is designed to combat this. I even stated that a 300 ft run through a factory floor will likely cause issues, but a 10ft run at home will not cause issues. 

I get why you say I am impossible, I shoot down every single "argument" you have because they are fictional arguments, no facts or even physics to support your claims whatsoever. But the better position to take would perhaps be "hey, what I am saying doesn't make any sense and doesn't hold up to scrutiny, and I really don't know what I am talking about, so maybe I should learn more".

As for the improvement, easily explained by confirmation bias like I stated before. Again, there is no possible theoretical improvement, the products in the "audiophile" Ethernet category doesn't live up to a single claim they make, yet some people hear a difference. Why? Because your brain works that way.

 

In the end, spend the money on whatever you want, it is your system, you are the one that need to be happy, but don't argue fanatically that an AudioQuest cable will turn your system into something magical that the neighbor across the street can hear a difference in.

 

 

 

 

@tonywinga  What type of sound quality improvements? If you had clipping, i.e. the sound cut out, it can be attributed to bad network performance. 

@nonoise  again, all noise. a lot of very bombastic noise.

I'll just ask this one last time, again.

And as for the rejection of packets, tell me why this article refutes that and even goes farther than you're willing to admit that it's not a perfect setup.

Your claim, explain how that refutes anything I have said. The article does not address the electrical signal. Or just go away. Your noise is unnecessary.

In general, just to show how small of an issue this is, my primary switch has an uptime of 82 days, and transmitted somewhere upwards to 3.3 billion packets in total, with 0 packets lost.

Physical interface: ge-1/0/11, Enabled, Physical link is Up

  Interface index: 140, SNMP ifIndex: 537, Generation: 143

  Link-level type: Ethernet, MTU: 1514, Speed: Auto, Duplex: Auto, BPDU Error: None, MAC-REWRITE Error: None, Loopback: Disabled, Source filtering: Disabled, Flow control: Enabled,

  Auto-negotiation: Enabled, Remote fault: Online, Media type: Copper, IEEE 802.3az Energy Efficient Ethernet: Disabled

  Device flags   : Present Running

  Interface flags: SNMP-Traps Internal: 0x4000

  Link flags     : None

  CoS queues     : 8 supported, 8 maximum usable queues

  Hold-times     : Up 0 ms, Down 0 ms

  Current address: f0:1c:2d:b8:71:8e, Hardware address: f0:1c:2d:b8:71:8e

  Last flapped   : 2015-03-02 21:43:05 CST (9w1d 10:11 ago)

  Statistics last cleared: Never

  Traffic statistics:

   Input  bytes  :        3322860227030                    0 bps

   Output bytes  :         247916852449                  608 bps

   Input  packets:           2475795752                    0 pps

   Output packets:            818652044                    0 pps

   IPv6 transit statistics:

    Input  bytes  :                   0

    Output bytes  :                   0

    Input  packets:                   0

    Output packets:                   0

  Egress queues: 8 supported, 4 in use

  Queue counters:       Queued packets  Transmitted packets      Dropped packets

    0 best-effort                    0            814627347                    0

    1 assured-forw                   0                    0                    0

    5 expedited-fo                   0                    0                    0

    7 network-cont                   0              4024698                    0

  Queue number:         Mapped forwarding classes

    0                   best-effort

    1                   assured-forwarding

    5                   expedited-forwarding

    7                   network-control

  Active alarms  : None

  Active defects : None

  MAC statistics:                      Receive         Transmit

    Total octets                 3322860227030     247916852449

    Total packets                   2475795752        818652044

    Unicast packets                 2475079840        814621375

    Broadcast packets                       12             5972

    Multicast packets                   715900          4024697

    CRC/Align errors                         0                0

    FIFO errors                              0                0

    MAC control frames                       0                0

    MAC pause frames                         0                0

    Oversized frames                         0

    Jabber frames                            0

    Fragment frames                          0

    Code violations                          0

  Autonegotiation information:

    Negotiation status: Complete

    Link partner:

        Link mode: Full-duplex, Flow control: Symmetric, Remote fault: OK, Link partner Speed: 1000 Mbps

    Local resolution:

        Flow control: Symmetric, Remote fault: Link OK

  Packet Forwarding Engine configuration:

    Destination slot: 0 (0x00)          

  CoS information:

    Direction : Output

    CoS transmit queue               Bandwidth               Buffer Priority   Limit

                              %            bps     %           usec

    0 best-effort            95      950000000    95             NA      low    none

    7 network-control         5       50000000     5             NA      low    none

 

2200-C> show system uptime

8:55AM  up 82 days, 22:57, 1 user, load averages: 0.09, 0.15, 0.10

@nonoise you just don’t get it do. Well, didn’t expect anything more. You post nonsense, not no noise, claims allover this thread, and then some random link to "back it up", where you either don’t understand what you claimed and posted as source, or probably more likely, is too arrogant to even care. You are correct in your mind, period. Doesn’t matter what you say, you are correct, end of story, because you said it. If someone else say it, they are wrong, only you can be correct, ever.

 

You are exactly the opposite of your name, all noise, no bite (or understanding even of what an argument is).

 

continue to "refute" things with noise, while others may actually want to learn.

@nonoise  Thank you for finally admitting that you have no relevant knowledge on this subject.

@brunomarcs  Right, just admitted that he has no clue.

@lordmelton i am very consistent in my posting, you are correct. I know this topic very well, and people with out any knowledge like @nonoise argue fanatically. They fall in three categories really, some places all three, “I made a change with XYZ widget, and my system was transformed to the golden system, and if you make the same change everything will be perfect. And if you didn’t hear a different 1) you don’t have good resolving system enough 2) you system doesn’t cost enough money, 3) your hearing is impaired (@nonoise is in this category). 
 

that’s crap. 

@jerrybj like him all you want, doesn’t change that he doesn’t know a thing about Ethernet. He can’t answer basic question about articles he claim supports his point. 

@nonoise  you did. And it was apparent for everyone that actually have knowledge. And again, I don’t hold a grudge from a previous thread, never said that. I said that, in this thread, you made outlandish claims, that you now have admitted you did not understand, posted something that wasn’t relevant to

your claim, stating it refuting everything everyone else is saying, while supporting your claim, when it didn’t do anything of the the sort. People like you are about 1 thing, you cannot be wrong. Well, you are, and somehow you admitted to it too, so a learning experience for you I guess. 
 

you are all noise, and no signal. All you should have posted was something like “anecdotally, I replaced a cable and heard a difference, but I don’t know anything about how Ethernet works”.

@audphile1  sure, why not.

Speakers: 

Audiovector R3 Arrete

Pre/Power: Classe Audio Delta Pre/Stereo

Streamer/Server: NAD M50.2

Interconnects: Kimber KS1116 balanced from pre to power, and Kimber Orchid for AES/EBU from the NAD M50.2 to the Delta Pre.

speaker cables: Kimber 12TC

 

@audphile1  so my system isn't good enough to hear the differences? 

 

@antigrunge2  What heavy error correction?

Certainly, I am not an expert on D/A conversions, never said I was. But please do explain how a ethernet cable impacts the noise in the DAC. It's what I asked of @nonoise and he certainly couldn't come up with anything.

@thyname  lol. Yeah, that one. Do you want me to dissect it and tell you exactly where UpTone is wrong? Happy to do so, again. But the easiest thing to ask UpTone or anyone else is, show that these issues exists in residential applications of Ethernet, and show that whatever product you insert fixes them. You are at very very technical level that is all very easily measured. 

And it completely discounts still that whatever you put in your system at home have 0 impact on what is upstream. And there are a lot more devices upstream than there are in your network.

@audphile1 @thyname @antigrunge2 

you are hinging your argument on that there is excessive noise in your residence. I am here to tell you no, there isn’t. I can easily prove that, and I have continued to ask, show me the issues that this cable/switch or whatever, is supposed to fix, because it doesn’t exist in residential applications.

I am not saying there is no noise in your house, just that it is not enough to matter, and Ethernet’s features to combat noise are more than enough for residential applications.

@audphile1 AES/EBU doesn’t have the same noise rejection , error detection and correction capabilities as Ethernet. I have said it numerous times, Ethernet is not like your other cables, digital or otherwise. I used to have a Classe SSP-800 which pcm over HDMI from the NAD50.2, but when I move to the Delta Pre I bought a Audio Sensibility AES/EBU, but decided to try the kimber, and stuck with it because I like aesthetics of it. Maybe I heard a difference between the Audio Sensibility and the Kimber, but nothing transformational. What I did hear a huge difference was when I switched to the Delta Pre from SSP-800. 

@audphile1  your analogy about the peanut butter? That is not how it works. There's no cleaning up at all. While I perhaps don't agree with with @12many 's analogy, and he even said it wasn't his strong suit, The better way to explain I think is that you have small child's toy, round holes, square holes, star holes, and triangle holes. Those are your 4 options with a PAM4 encoded signal like Ethernet. From a protocol perspective, as the PAM4 encoded signal comes across the wire, it fits in one of the holes, that's it. There is no option for peanut butter. All these signals coming through each hole is then assembled into a frame. Once the frame is complete, a CRC check is don't on the frame, and if the checksum doesn't match, the frame is completely discarded. No noise. There is no cleaning up. In a residential setting this is very rare, may happen once or twice per year that one frame is lost. So you can have your disagreement, but it is not rooted in facts.

@nonoise  Curiosity. It's a hobby I like to spend money on, so I do. Doesn't change anything. You are still the fanatical one, you are still the one saying it's a problem with me (impaired hearing), doesn't matter that you can't actually back up anything you claim.

 

@ghasley  never said I was smarter than anyone, I have said I know this particular topic better than anyone on this site, which so far, stands to be true, and when it doesn't, I'll admit so. 

@nonoise  that may be your interpretation, but not true. Correcting people like yourself who blindly posts articles with no understanding doesn’t mean anything to me. But my point is by actually trying to have a discussion around facts, it might help other people not to spend stupid money on things that do not matter. I will never convince you, because how Ethernet works, and the potential actual improvements you can make does not matter to you. But getting someone else to not be another you is a win.
 

as for @rockrider ’s article. It is very much focused in USB, and also contains factual issues. But more importantly, the article states over and over “your power supply sucks” and ends with, buy our power supply instead. 
Some of the factual issues :

Regular RAM is not bit perfect, and you can pay extra for error correcting ram

Noisy power supply does not automatically mean corrupt transfers 

I don’t think any higher end streamers uses wall warts or smps, could be wrong, but mine certainly do not

and lastly, more computer resources doesn’t mean better audio quality

 

@rockrider 

you mean this?

But streaming does not have these robust protocols for data integrity. Streaming allows errors in the name of transfer speed. Have you ever experienced a pixelated image while streaming a video? That is the result of prioritizing speed over data integrity. The similar effect can happen with audio streaming.

yeah, and it is not correct over the Internet and tcp/ip/Ethernet for platforms like Qobuz and Tidal when you chose their lossless options with sustained bit rate.

@rockrider but it actually does not matter if what you posted or what mojo audio posted is correct. None of the “issues” highlighted are resolved with an upgraded Ethernet cable, not even on a theoretical level.

I do find it very interesting how the "anti ASR" crowd on this forum posts claims and articles "supporting" their perception at a fanatical pace, and when someone posts actual information about how Ethernet works, they can't be bothered. 

Another common misconception here is that UpTone and others on this forum is under the impression that the electrical signal is carried through equipment. It is not. It's a point to point going from the transmitter to the receiver. The network receiver reads the electrical signal, but it doesn't actually do anything with that signal, rather creates an aggregate (the Ethernet Frame) of the electrical signal in the digital domain instead the network interface card. 

Anyway, keep on doing what you want, but none of you have posted anything that can show a theoretical improvement of sounds quality when you upgrade a cable. And you never will be able to, since it is not possible. 

@audphile1  thanks for proving my point; when presented with how things actually work, ignore, deflect, personal attacks! 

@audphile1  lol, that’s your argument? When I literally have been telling you that your cable (tree) makes no difference at all in whole transmission chain (forest) from your platform of choice. 
 

yeah, facts and even basic understanding isn’t the anti-ASR crowd’s forte. 
 

if you actually want to learn how Ethernet works, let me know. 

@nonoise you are absolutely right. The industry had to solve for all sort of things, including noise, but that is the point; It is solved it. It is done, no longer an issue. Ethernet today is incredibly robust and error free in commercial environments, and well beyond that in residential environments. That is my whole point.

@juanmanuelfangioii  yep. Again, you have no facts, knowledge, or relevant experience. And you certainly do not want to learn. It is pretty sad that this is where you fanatics want to take this forum every time, instead of actually discussing real potential issues.

@juanmanuelfangioii  yep, calling people who actually know things names, burning them on stakes, and so on, is a ignorant people have done as long as mankind has been around. Nothing has changed. 
 

Summary of this thread: unless you believe in magic cables, you are going to be personally attacked. Facts and knowledge does not matter at all. Keep wasting your money and time.

@audphile1 i didn’t set out to “stupify” anyone, what I wanted to accomplish, which I have, is to direct people away from the path to become like you, meaning, no knowledge and all conviction. All of you fanatics fall into this category. If you actually want to move out crumbled paper with peanut butter and sand land and into real word, let me know.

 

not likely to happen, but at least someone will read and see how you behave with name calling and refusal to argue on facts, and realize that is not where the crowd they should join. Others I am sure will flock to you.

@audphile1 my narrative is how Ethernet works, verifiably so, with numerous links posted to give you more information, including from IEEE, not crumbles paper with peanut butter and sand like you stated Ethernet works. And you certainly called names.

@jerrybj here is where you go wrong, every time. I don’t post my opinions, I post how Ethernet actually works. You, on other hand, post opinions and anecdotes. There is a massive difference, and that you think they are same is showing true arrogance, and ignorance. Not trying to save you, you cannot be saved, too arrogant, but like I have said, the goal is to stop people from becoming another you. When people see facts posted, supported by additional information from IEEE and other organizations involved in the development of Ethernet, compared to subjective posts that when questioned are met with personal attacks, normal people should say “holy ****, maybe just sticking with the facts is the best approach”. That is the goal, prevent more jerrybj’s from being developed.

@nonoise I don’t know to laugh out loud or cry at your level of ignorance, but first, I am not trying to offend anyone.

Second, what happened with your analogy with cable tv vs Blu-ray? Facts didn’t line up with your world view?

 

cables do make a difference, to a point, however, for Ethernet, a base cable provides adequate performance for all the protocols above, and there are many, to function properly. And that is what matters. The whole stack of protocols include numerous error detection and correction mechanisms, Ethernet specifically is balanced and includes common mode noise rejection. I get it, when you don’t understand any of it, it is easy to just throw money at it, and then tell yourself it made a difference. 
 

I have of course tried it, and products like Etherregen, and there is no theoretical or practical difference in sound.

@nonoise  Like I thought, you have no relevant experience or knowledge. 

You could have put up, and you could not, and you continue to make a fool out of yourself by not shutting up.

Again - "Show one example of where noise enters the any device in a residential setting via a 10ft ethernet cable, or just fade away."