Is there are anyone out there who has compared the Esoteric DV-50 to a number of dedicated red book only players (or other universal's) and found one that is SIGNIFICANTLY better?
I stress significantly because in my humble opinion the redbook playback (if comparison unit is just a cd cd player only )must be significantly better to justify losing DVD-A, SACD and DVD-Video capability.
I keep hearing there are better one box solutions and being a die hard 2 channel fan I would sell my DV-50 if I found a player in the same price range that sounds significantly better. But every time I do an AB comparision to other well respected units the DV-50 has slayed each and every one.
So far, it has eaten the lunch of the Classe CDP-10, Ayre CX-7, Linn Ikemi, Cairn Fog Vers. 2, Cary 306/300, Arcam DV 27A and CD 33T, Myryad CD 600, etc. It even betters a Sony SCD 777ES/MF Tri-Vista 21 transport/dac combo that I previously owned. I'm only comparing the DV-50 to single box cd or universal players, but I just wanted to mention the Sony/MF combo. I'm sure there are some dac/transport combo's that will handily beat the DV 50.
Some may say that the DV 50 should beat all the above because the of price point ($5,500 vs. average price of $3,000 for the above players). But I disagree since conventional wisdom says that stand alone players (especially with the pedigree of those mentioned above) should produce better redbook than a universal player trying to be a jack of all trades. Only the DV 27A does video plus audio. By the way, I was very impressed with the 27A as just a cd player. Of all the above I would say the Ayre was the best.
Next on my list is the Electrocompaniet EMC 1UP and the Resolution Audio Opus 21. However, I must tell you I am really impressed with the DV 50 and all the great reviews are absolutely true. I've noticed that many people who are using it or comparing to other players are using the RCA analog outs instead of the balanced outs. There is a significant improvement in sound if you use the balanced outs and I'm only interested in hearing comments from people who have compared it against other players using the balanced outs on the DV-50.
My system components are as follows:
B&W N803's speakers & HTM-1 center Cary Cinema 5 (5 x 200) amp Anthem D1 Statement pre/pro Esoteric DV 50 Acoustic Zen Satori Shotgun speaker wire Nirvana SX balanced interconnects from DV-50 to Anthem Acoustic Zen Matrix reference II interconnects from D1 to Cary No after market power cords or isolation equipment
My system sounds great! Those who comment please make sure to specify what specific improvements you heard over the DV 50 and what cdp were you comparing it against.
I was joking as well, Audio Girl. Sorry, I'm often taken as serious even at times when I don't intend to be. I only learned just last week what LOL means. Slow learner, I am.
Jactoy, we will definitely continue listening to more players. As for the Prima, we're not selling it until we can find a player that offers more dynamics and resolution without giving up the ability to play emotionally, at a gut level. If I'm missing the energy of the players, I'm not interested, no matter how 'right' a player is. In the end, we could still end up keeping the Prima for its ability to convey the humanity behind the music.
Ehfm--and Alex can correct me if I'm wrong--but his system consisted of a 2A3-based hybrid amp that he built himself, his modded 3910, double-stacked Dynaudio monitors, and silver wiring throughout. He was trying out Audience PC's on the CDP, and I believe on the amp as well. We were principally trying to discern the characteristics of the 3910, and how it might work in our system. We have SET amps/horns at home, and find that combination to be quite intimate. All the best, Howard
oops, sorry, 3910, my typing is getting worse instead of better. Alex has promised to use a high quality isolation transformer for the uk 240v conversion. I understand that consulting audios isolations transformers are used by Underwood mods, and that this has a dramatic affect on the overall sound. It will be interesting if this does alter the sound of the APL 3910 for the better.
Boa I saw you are selling your Audio Prima, you must be on the digital journey, I heard good things about the Prima, Still not happy? Cant blame you.I agree with Eric, In the Shootout we listed, all the gear involved, Please do so.Thanks
Come to think of it, I did not touch the steering wheel once during the two hour drive to Alex's home. When we arrived, I again thought it odd that he was sneaking us through a side door into a room that looked suspiciously like an audiophile safehouse. By the time he was cunningly inserting CD's of our choosing while we were not paying attention to his trickery, it must have been too late. He had to be routing the 3910 through a Linn Unidisc 1.1 in the other room without our even noticing. How could we have let down our guard? We must have left our ears at home, along with our well-seasoned defense mechanism. I cannot believe it. Dear god, ANGRY AUDIO GIRL, we've been had!!! Just what the hell kind of gas do you think is in that 6H3 tube he uses??? I will never let that happen again!
If I must respond to this silly discussion of cheese (which I love), I will state that "Canadian Black Diamond" white chedder is the best I have ever tasted, and I have not found one to even compare in over 35 years. It is available at a good price at Sam's club stores. On the original subject (from which this thread has strayed quite a bit), what exactly is wrong with the DV-50? If all of you folks are right, then I and many other music lovers have wasted a lot of money on this player, and might as well eat our losses and buy something cheaper and have it modified by one of the wizards discussed ad infinitum in this thread. Remember also... no warranty!
OH NO, HERE WE GO BACK TO THE APL DENON DVD-3910: ANY CDP'S SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER THREAD... AGAIN! You are a sly one, Alex! PS- Hey 711, good to see that you finally jumped off the APL bandwagon for a while. I'm proud uv yah man!
My wife and I had the opportunity to listen to the APL Denon 3910 today, hosted generously by Alex at his home. We listened to a variety of music for about 45 minutes, and what we both noticed was that the music sounded like playback in a recording studio. That is, the component exaggerated nothing, and forced nothing. It was odd, in fact, because neither of us had ever heard a player that seemed to cover so much ground, and with such a relaxed confidence. The player did not do one thing exceptionally well. It simply did EVERYTHING well.
I don't have a lot of experience with the modded players, so this is no attempt at comparison with them. We have, however, either owned or heard at length quite a few other players/DAC's, including the top 'o the line models from Audio Aero, Audio Note, Naim, Sony, Wadia, Sim Audio, and more. The APL 3910 is definitely the most natural and balanced player that either of us has heard. Now we just have to decide whether we will buck up and have one here at home.
Lazarus28: extra sharp cheddar for me, too - the older the better! But then I've been known to consume processed cheese spreads as well - although I can't remember having Cheez Whiz, I'm willing to try almost anything once, provided it is served at the proper temperature :-)
Hello, Me and Steve do respect each other, In this matter I totally disagree,I think Brian tried the best, he can, You know, to be the host,Its not easy,711 request is difficult, Example,He made sure that the system sound good to everyone present in the shootout,this is hard to accomplish We cant even agree on the CDP we compared. How can we all agree on the sound of the system.For we have all different taste and preference.Did the Shootout Happen? Yes it happen,Eric post is accurate.No offense to you Steve,just like you,I like to speak my mine,after all, this is America where there is democracy and freedom.Enjoy the music
great to have you back, I was wondering where you had got to. Even more admirable is the fact that you were man enough to admit that you were stressed by all of the previous weeks events.
I agree entirely with you regarding the non event. In all the years of juding units with my hifi friends, I have never known units to be judged in the way you described they were for 'that' shoot out. Which makes the results even more dubious just as I had already commented on earlier in the thread.
I am waiting for my APL denon 3920 to arrive, but please do let us know how it compares in your opinion with the modwright.
Good to see that you are back. Thanks for bringing the APL 3910 to Brian's house. Let us know what you think of the Modwright 3910 and TRL player when they are broken in and you are comfortable with their sound.
First of all, with regards to the system being dialed in. While by my own admission the speakers had been inadvertently moved due to some moving things around in the system, the rest of the system _was_ dialed in and warmed up. Steve, let me know when your system stops being a moving target or you go nuts, whichever comes first ;-) As for what sounds 'right' to one person, it's a subjective matter. Steve, I invite you and everyone else to come back, and we can use any of the electronics desired, tube or solid state. And I hope Charles (Avguru) will join us.
Second, the same kinds of cabling, etc. were used on all players in the comparison, so your statement is inaccurate.
I'm not a believer in blind testing, certainly not ABX double blind testing, but there's not much point to opening that can of worms. However, I firmly contend that any kind of switching device is a source of distortion and noise which masks differences, as I've never heard a system have high resolution when one is in place - and I've been into high end for over 30 years. The method of playing the six tracks sequentially on each player was to limit the number of connections and disconnections of interconnects that had to be made (and wear and tear on the connectors).
I disagree with the majority opinion prevailing, aka the herd mentality. Just as people perceive and appreciate a painting or wine differently, there is room for interpretation of music reproduction and expression of personal preference. It isn't a black and white, right or wrong decision. What kinds of cheese do you like? I'm sure some I prefer differ from yours.
A few weeks back a couple audio nutz went to Essential Audio's home to have a shootout of 3 players. This never was able to materialize for various reasons.
1) The system was not dialed in properly, ie: Brian had moved his speakers, and they did not sound right.
2) Different cables and interconnects were used.
3) There is no real way of comparing units by listening to 2 minutes of 6 different songs, on 1 player, than moving on to the next.
IMHO, for a shootout to happen, first, the system must sound great to all in attendance. Each player must use the same interconnects, PC's, Line conditioner, ect. The format must be a 1 against 1 and majority opinion prevails. Than go on the next player. Those voting should vote blindly, without knowing which machine is playing. A general consensus should take place as to the music being evaluated. There should be a person, in charge of switching the music on the various players. It should be fun for all.
This did not happen, and for me personnaly, I just went along for a ride.
For these reasons, I am just aquiring more highly touted machines for myself to enjoy, and for a select few others to experience. I just received my TRL 595(a giant killer?)I do not know yet. I am still waiting for my modwright 3910 to be finished. Plus, I may buy another Exemplar 3910 just to make further comparisons, and drive myself NUTZ.
I have received my new speakers, and they are burning in too. Over the next 30 days, hopefully I will have my systemn dialed into the point I desire, along with all my new toys, than I will make some observations.
I apologize to AVGURU for coming off offensively, but, I felt he was attacking me for no reason. Charles, I invite you back into the insanity, and will control my temper.
This is an obsession for me, BUT, above all it must be FUN.
The past couple weeks, were not for me. They were getting stressful, thus I kept away.
I am feeling great again, even though, at this time I do not even recognize my systems sound. I will soon,and then the fun begins anew.
Pardales, the Sony XA777 must be exceptional as my Allen Wright level 4 moded Sony CDP3000 was no match for the Exemplar 2900 even on sacd. As rapidly as digital evolves, there may be better than the 3910 in six months.
Thanks, Tbg. I might have thought a little differently if the Exemplar 2900 had made as enormous a difference on SACD's as it did on redbook. But to me, in my system, the SACD performance was no better than the XA777. Glad to hear that the 3910 is an overall improvement on SACD and redbook. I am going to start saving up again and well, we'll see.
Pardales, multiple threads seem to be going along on a single thread. I think your observations about the Exemplar 2900 are apt. I too found it did most for redbook while still improving sacd. I too lost interest in discriminating against cds as they sounded so good.
But the Exemplar 3910 is a different animal. After this sucker is broken in, there is no question that sacds are superior. When a sacd is on, you hear the soundstage open and the speakers disappear. Cds are improved also, but they remain stuck between the speakers.
While I have no question that the Reimyo CDP777 cd player might make you forget about sacds, I think the Exemplar 3910 will make you want more sacds.
Attention those with MODWRIGHT SIGNATURE TRUTH products!
Regarding the 999ES specifically, is it really worth getting the full Platinum package for $1750... or will the Basic level at $1150 get you 95% of the way there??
What exactly do you gain with AC and Slipstream Bybee filters??
Just wondering if it's worth the extra dosh. Thanks in advance!
Jayctoy, as I mentioned, I have listened to your player on three occasions and in two different systems. What I heard (and measured) was consistent as well. I also know in detail how your player is built from the AC power inlet to the analog outputs.
I am really happy for you that you like the sound of your 9000ES. You are right; the music enjoyment is what matters most.
I wish I could fly you over here with your 9000ES because this would be the only way for you to understand what I am talking about.
Alex have you read Eric post it is the APL that is more fatiguing,He is the one who dont own any of the player in the Shootout. In my system the SonyModwright 9000ES is very accurate and musical,the bass is very natural,no overhang, Its not flabby,with the Virtual Dynamic Nite pc, the bass became more musical accompanied with total harmony,it also produces the full rich sounding sound,I believe the SonyModwright 9000ES is for mature listener,the treble is just about right, no hyperextension,no brightness at all, To me musicality is the most important character of a system,Accuracy is very hard to tell, because during the recording we are not present, Musicality is the one that involve the listener, playing cd after cd, LP after LP. I dont trust measurement,many gear who did very well in measurement did not sound good, I trust my ears. Alex the comment of Eric and Avguru are extremely accurate on the two Shootout. Also I want to remind you the 9000ES did performed consistently in Mark system, Steve system, and Brian's system.And never notice any coloration.Likewise Iam very happy to those who own the APL.Enjoy the music not accuray.
Jayctoy, I am glad for you that you are happy with Dan's 9000ES. Let me tell you that I have heard the 9000ES as you have it on two occasions in my own system. Also, I've heard it in a local reviewer's house in his system. In both cases, we compared the 9000ES to my previous reference mod based on Phillips SACD1000. Further more, I have measured the frequency response of the 9000ES here in my lab.
The 9000ES has some strengths making it sounding colorful and somewhat enjoyable. In general, and in my opinion, the 9000ES is highly colored sounding machine made to "please the ear". It has nice and lush midrange which is the reason for its "musicality". Other than that, the bass is of nice amount but is flabby (not well controlled), and the highs are significantly rolled off. It will be hard to say that the 9000ES offers the necessary top end detail, air and transparency.
Of course, this player would be very desirable for bright and thin sounding systems as it will add its colors resulting in good synergy and more enjoyable sound from digital. On a true sounding and really revealing system, the 9000ES shows its flaws immediately. This can also be seen measuring the unit in the lab.
Dan made the 9000ES to be more “musical”, not accurate.
The real puzzle is to design a digital player which is musical, accurate, realistic, detailed and extended without being fatiguing, just like professional analog reel-to-reel machines.
Yes, I've read this entire thread, as well as Robert Levi's overwhelming rave of the Modwright 999 at Positive Feedback. I am intrigued to say the least.
I did email Dan Wright and he suggested the 999 Platinum level would probably suit my listening tastes (classical, female vocals) better then either the 9000 or even the Denons...
Of course, I will look forward to reading your opinion of the 999, as well as the opinions of others here.
Kudos to Alex for supporting another modder's product BTW! If the APL mod was more affordable, I'd probably swing that way...
I have had to really stop and ask myself some basic questions. Now that I have spent some significant time with an Exemplar 2900, I ask myself, is SACD really necessary? This player forced me to stop and think.
Prior to owning the Exemplar 2900 I owned the Sony XA777ES. SACD's on the Sony sounded very, very good to me. Way better than my redbook versions of the same discs. But after spending several months with the Exemplar I began to notice no significant difference, on many quality recordings, between the SACD and the redbook. For example, I owned two versions of Bill Evans 'Waltz for Debby': one was the SACD and one was the Super-K2 20 bit remaster. Well, on the Exemplar Denon, in my system, I could not tell a significant difference between the two, and, on a few tracks, I actually preferred the 20 bit remaster. This exeperience repeated itself a few times.
This has given me pause. It makes me wonder whether I should just go for something like an AA Capitole II and forget the whole Hi-Rez thing altogether (especially because I am two- channel and don't need DVD). While I have invested a lot of money in SACD only about %10 of them were music I re-bought and the vast majority were hybrids -- so it would not be hard to divest myself of the single-sided SACD's and keep the hybrids (which is mostly new music for me) if I wanted.
I have learned a lot and one of the things that keeps coming back to me is that maybe I just had never owned a really exceptional redbook player before the Exemplar. That is what I am thinking about these days. I have not come to any conclusions. Thanks for reading,
Well Fla the Sony9000ES, did very in this shootout,If your unit is not reliable as mine,then as Alex said the 999es is better,maybe the way to go is the Sony 999ES,if you like Denon,Alex and Dan are both doing mod for them, 711Smilin will get his DenonModright,I am sure He is willing to share the info to you, Mark has theSony999esModwright, when I hear it, I will let you know, how good it is.Fla with information above, if you are really looking for modding cdp,this are more than enough.If you have time read this thread.Enjoy the music.
Alex I can only speak on my own experience with my Sony9000es,Have you heard both of the unit? If the 999ES is better than the 9000es ,then Dan was able to put one of the best CDP modified.Alex my sony is so musical, natural,and the tonal balance is so accurate,my Andra"s were voice with piano,and they do sounds like piano with 999es, you can email Avguru. The reason why I want Fla to email Dan,to make sure He doesnt make the wrong decision.I will do the same if I own the APL.I will direct Him to you.I just want to help here at no cost. I will also inform you what is the sonic difference,Mark got his 999es, when the burn in ,is finish, we will do comparison.If indeed the 999es is better in my system, then its time to upgrade, and thanks for telling me.Enjoy they music. Alex thanks a lot for contributing on this thread.
My concern with the Modwright SONYs regards the quality of the transport... My 9000ES required a replacement within a year of use - it stopped reading hybrid SACDs and would default to redbook.
Has the 999ES transport been upgraded?? Or does it still use the same cheap unit? And is this a part we could replace easily ourselves (since the warranty is void)?
In terms of what I have actually spent a good deal of listening time with, I would rank three digital systems in this order: l. Linn Unidisk 1.1, 2. EMM, 3. DV-50.
Krisgel even amplifier and speaker are almost impossible to keep them forever.Too many choices. Because of financial reasons, we sell them, so we can upgrade.Thanks
It's very silly to think one will keep adigital player forever. The technology changes way too fast for this. I could see keeping a great amplifier forever or a great speaker, but not digital.
Dbld, the DV50 is still a very good cd player,I do agree on that, Modded on Not.Steve like his APL. Tom like His DV50.Its obvious I like mine, I like the musicality, and the full rich sounding sound, I Like the bloom sounstage presentation,I am sure they heard that when we are listening to the Cantate Domino CD.Lets all be happy with our choices.Its only stereo.
Forever. Wow, I've never said that about any gear. Perhaps the APL 3910 I have on order will be the first. I'd love to tell my wife its a keeper since it is her gift to me (decadal birthday -- don't ask which one).
I'll write my impressions after it is burned in, but I don't think I'll be able to decide on forever until I've had it one year (seems to be that if a relationship can last that long, it may indeed be forever).
Aren't audiophiles among the most fickle people alive?
Not to long ago she said at me "Aren't you finished with that [the system and the room] yet!?"
When I said "No, it will never be done!"
She said, "Well I am glad you finally realized that!"
Boy...what a relief. A weight had been lifted from my shoulders. She is definitely a keeper...which is more than I can say for any of my gear.
BTW - please go easy on the DV-50 folks. It is still one of the better unmodded/stock units available, especially for $3.6K. And besides, I'll need to sell mine sometime, and I don't want the market to completely drop out from under it.
Lazarus28 - You know, if you look at what I wrote, I don't believe that I claimed to know all the nuances of each player. That would be an arrogant statement. But, and here's the thing: YES, I did reach a definitive conclusion last Saturday, in the context of a particular system, between the three players.
It seems to me that without the ability to reach conclusions about what you are hearing, why would anyone bother with this hobby?
Before I opened my own wallet, I would want to listen to these players again in different systems. And if it were possible to borrow each player for a month and listen to it in my own system, that would be great. But listening even for a hour to these players is still better, in my opinion, than buying the unit without *ever* having heard it.
I made a judgment about what I heard on a particular day. If your point is that I may have reached a different conclusion about particular aspects of each of these players had I the opportunity to listen to each for a couple of months and been able to try and switch out the associated components, well o.k., I wouldn't disagree with that.
Tom has done a good job defending his modified DV-50; I wanted to step up for the Modwright unit. I would encourage anyone interested in obtaining a new CD/SACD player to try and audition the Modwright, however you go about it.
Tom I agree with you,As of now I will keep my Sonymodwright I have the same feeling like you.Will I replace my Sony in onother 3 years? The answer is No.Even if there is a new one.It does not give you a guarantee, that it will match your system, or its musical than what we have now.
"I told my wife (for the 1st time ever) this piece will always remain."
LOL!!! did your wife actually believe you? you don't know how many times i've told my wife this...needless to say, she never believed me for a second. :-)
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
