Equalizer in a Hi Fi system

I miss the EQs from the '80s. I had a Denon DE-70 which I regret selling. Wish they were still around.

Yes, I understand that @mahgister   but when we hear envelopment or surround dispersal of the 3 D soundstage but it’s coming from 2 front speakers it’s still the brain being tricked. Simply because you don’t have all these performers surrounding you in the room. You have two front left and right speakers. but I get what you’re saying. Anyway for this software to do what it’s supposed to do but still meet the toughest audiophile standards for SQ is a tough challenge!  Can’t wait to hear.

You will see that scottwheel is right on this and he own it ...😊

Me i was  only able to read the Choueiri  science paper ... it is convincing when we know what Choueiri talk about... I made some simple mechanical experiment with crosstalk already and so imperfect and with no comparison at all with designed filters  it is it was amazing ...

Me i will buy it when i could even without hearing it with no doubt ...be happy and feel lucky to be able to hear it...

Anyway for this software to do what it’s supposed to do but still meet the toughest audiophile standards for SQ is a tough challenge! Can’t wait to hear.

“Yes, I understand that @mahgister   but when we hear envelopment or surround dispersal of the 3 D soundstage but it’s coming from 2 front speakers it’s still the brain being tricked.”

everything we hear ultimately is two channels. Our right and left ears. Our brain deciphers cues based the difference between what the right and left ears hear. There are three main factors. Arrival time, amplitude and the head transfer function. Stereo cross talk messes up those cues by leaking those cues to the opposing ears. BACCH SP corrects that. So it actually is the only playback system that *isnt* a trick. And you can demonstrate the extraordinary accuracy of the system by using the in ear microphones to record someone at various positions in the room and then playing back that recording. It’s nuts. 100% accurate. 

A number can not be distorted. It can only be changed.

@mijostyn Yikes! THAT’s your defense of DSP superiority?? Then clearly you misunderstand what a digital stream is representing. The numbers are describing the analog waveform, and if you CHANGE the numbers, you are by definition, DISTORTING the resulting waveform. The numbers ARE the waveform! You can change the numbers in a perfectly linear fashion, as in simply changing the amplitude of the entire signal (gain, volume) --OR-- the stream of numbers can be fed through very complex equations that perform filtering operations on the signal (EQ). These equations can work really well, or really poorly. I’ve heard good ones, and certainly bad ones. There’s many many types of filtering algorithms, with new ones being devised all the time. Some are intentionally colored and vintage sounding, and some are clean and transparent.

@mirolab 

And you obviously do not understand digital signal processing. A number has meaning, distortion does not. That number represents amplitude, nothing else. When you change that number you change amplitude in a specific way. Distortion in meaningless. DSP changes the numbers in specified patterns to achieve a specific result. Can you change the numbers to replicate distortion? I'm not sure although I do not see why not. A number can not be distorted, it can only be changed. 

Analog? It is essential only because that is what our ears understand. The only components that should operate in analog are speakers and perhaps amplifiers. Everything else is way better off operating in digital. Good examples are broadcast radio and the cell phone. Compare Sirius radio to standard radio, old analog cell vs what we have now. People who think analog signal processing is better are stuck at about 1981. As you yourself have just described, you can go almost anywhere with DSP and not necessarily in good ways. That is up to the programmer. 

Again, both analog and digital advancements have come along since 1981.  Referencing your past experiences years ago with analog is irrelevant 

No more bashing either. They both can play a role in augmenting the audiophile listening experience 

And you obviously do not understand digital signal processing. A number has meaning, distortion does not. That number represents amplitude, nothing else. When you change that number you change amplitude in a specific way. Distortion in meaningless. DSP changes the numbers in specified patterns to achieve a specific result. Can you change the numbers to replicate distortion? I’m not sure although I do not see why not. A number can not be distorted, it can only be changed.

Mirolab is right ...

As usual mijostyn conflate the Fourier map and the territory of hearing ...

Signal processing is grounded in psycho-acoustics research not the reverse ...The ears /brain science rule the technology modalities not the reverse ...

"DistortionS" in the analog flow is at the plural , not at the singular, some are welcome others not so much ... And the linear design of a non distorting optimal electronical component is not the same as the design of our non linear ears/brain workings ... it is why psycho-acoutics exist to study and to bridge the gap ...

We cannot decipher timbre with only numbers by the way we need ears/brain ... Even Choueri DSP filters so revolutionary they are are grounded in psycho-acoustics measurements of the non digital non linear brain -ears/head..

The brain work at complex simultaneous levels between analog and digital flows of translation and filterings in the two directions at the same time and this at way lower levels than the neurons , only mijostyn brain work perfectly in a singular digital linear way as a chip it seems .. I apologize for my bad joke ... It was too tempting ...😉

No more bashing either. They both can play a role in augmenting the audiophile listening experience

It is so true that analog/digital coupling is fundamental that one of the greatest genius in A. I. just published a paper about self learning artificial consciousness self learning without human programming and they are analog machine first and foremost ... Digital is a tool not a ground ...

The territory cannot be mapped nor the map cannot became the territory save in an organism able to go from one to the other levels at will without being prisoner of one level ...

Analog and digital are both fundamental in their own way ...We need a tool as we need a ground ( our body is the two at the same time ) ..

These complementarity is even at the basis of mathematics with Grothendieck teachings  as it is with meanings and semiotics with Peirce teachings and at the basis of all symbolic forms with Cassirer teachings ...

I was shopping a while for a Schiit Loki Max, but ended up trying the Schiit Lokius instead. I only need a tiny touch of EQ and this did the job nicely. I did some a/b with and without the Lokius in the signal path. There is degridation in the sound, but it’s really minimal. If you don’t have a highly resolving system, you probably won’t even notice it. I ended up taking it out since tube rolling ended up getting me where I wanted to be without having to EQ, but will still swap it in once in a while. If you don’t want to pump out the $ for the Max, get the Lokius. I’m using the balanced connection BTW and it's dead quiet.

“

Hi Tim, I just had a conversation with the last purchaser of the M3D. He is having a mismatch issue as he is using Phono level into a +4 device that is causing distortion. He initially assured me he had a converter but in fact does not. 

I wanted to give you a heads up that these are a +4 Professional level balanced device. Using Phono level into this will cause a huge impedance mismatch and level difference that will result in distortion so you will need to find something to convert it. 

Jason @ Revive Audio LLC”

For the scenario described above, you need to get the phono signal to line level with a phono stage preamp. Then if you’re still unbalanced, talk to me. I’ll get you to balanced properly without an additional box

Basically you have your custom pin wiring scheme with the XLR to rca that gets you to unity gain

Did that for my unbalanced Bryston tape loop. Cardas custom wired the pins (pseudo balanced) and works perfectly with no distortion and no need for an additional box. Once had a Aphex converter box in the beginning. The Cardas custom cable without the additional extra box obviously is the correct solution and sounds of course WAY better. 

Indeed comparing the XLR to XLR for my HP chain to the above mentioned custom wired XLR to RCA, sonically there is no difference. Perfect and absolutely lossless way to mate pro XLR only to unbalanced RCA only gear. 

Have picked up and am bringing home the Skyline M3D right now. Impressions soon!

“Avalon AD2055, Millennia nseq4, and my own Charter Oak all sound unbelievable in home playback “

But this Skyline isn’t working. Have informed Jason at Revive. The problem is half volume and distortion. Funny these cables work for all of the above pieces. Will put the Skyline in my all balanced HP chain and try there. To be continued…

I CAN report so far that Miro s description of the completely transparent hard bypass switch is correct though. More on how it is in my HP chain later. 

Ok. The Skyline is functioning BEAUTIFULLY in my HP chain. Initial impressions good. First minutes. Let me listen critically more tomorrow and report back on Skyline CO comparisons then. 

The unit is indeed more transparent, both in bypass and engaged with all dials flat, than the CO. Miro is correct there.  More on SQ of filters dialed in later. 

Got 30 minutes turning dials. CO bass bands more powerful with more slam. Bass weak records on HEKse can turn sub and 40hz dials almost all the way to get the same slam and tactility as CO with much less dialed in. Oh, also the treble and bass bands are better than Loki Max. Much more tomorrow. Gotta go to dinner with family now. 

More extreme level adjustments don't necessarily mean "better"...nonsense...again, the Max is designed and built to a specific standard and it functions perfectly as designed. Especially with Chicken Head knobs.

Didn’t say they did. Just describing a difference. Not sure how a simple observation without qualifying it as good or bad is nonsense 

BuT…having more power and less dial change is generally a good thing. Much like proper amplification and having that “power reserve “ leads to better saturation and SQ. @wolf_garcia , you are just hell bent on insulting me because I don’t like your Schiit EQ. 

“Oh, also the treble and bass bands are better than Loki Max.”

If it’s this part you’ve referred to, it is readily evident that those bands boosted sound better to me subjectively than Loki Max. Sorry. Miro said much the same a while ago.

@tlcocks Glad to hear the Skyline is working out for you:-)

@veerossi I received my Lokius today. I really had my doubts it was going to do what I wanted,which is to tone down the shrill upper mids in some recordings. The kind that make your ear canals vibrate.Damned if it didn't work! I turned the 6kh down a couple of clicks and cranked up Led Zeppelin III.Robert Plant sounded fantastic.It didn't lower the volume or soften it,it just eliminated it like it never existed.That's all I needed.Tomorrow will be all about shrill violins and such:)

Nice!

@jtcf +1. Very nice. That’s exactly what I love with my McIntosh MQ112. 

Can you change the numbers to replicate distortion? I’m not sure although I do not see why not. A number can not be distorted, it can only be changed.

@mijostyn Your statement above tells me you have no experience in doing digital signal processing. You’ve admitted it! I have literally 100’s of plugins that do all manners of DSP, many of which are distortion. These are mostly used creatively in audio production and mixing.... In final 2-track mastering, you typically want very transparent EQ (but not always!). The problem with much of today’s music is that heavy compression and limiting ARE used on the final 2-bus, or stereo mix. I think it’s heavily overused.

But I’ve spent literally thousands of hours staring at audio waveforms, editing them, and processing them.... so YES, I very much understand DSP, and what a single sample (a number) represents, and what a stream of samples represents. If I change one number in the stream, the number is not distorted, but the waveform IS now distorted (when compared to the original).

@tlcocks So glad you got the Skyline working! YES it is a balanced PRO level device... not level as in quality, but level as in +4dBu rather than consumer -10dBV. Since I use it in my studio, it’s not such an issue, but right now I am using a +4 balanced to -10 unbalanced cable that I made, with 3 resistors to bring it down, and "unbalance" it. I commented to Vintage Audio years ago that they should make a consumer version of the Skyline and market it to vinyl lovers.

Tlcocks...sorry to ruffle your feathers but you're simply wrong. Nuff said.

That’s fine. You’re entitled to your opinion. I’d avoid words like “nonsense “.  There are nicer ways to disagree. We all have extensive listening experience, and some have extensive pro recording experience. Let’s respect each other. @wolf_garcia ive said this before.  Our experiences don’t necessarily diverge. It depends on your use case. If you are cutting at 6khz to avoid sibilant recordings the Schiit products are great. However, if you are using your EQ simply like a tone control bass and or treble boost without cuts, there are many pro hardware solutions that do this better than Schiit. 
I don’t like cuts in the middle of the frequency range. I prefer broad gentle bass shelf increase to fill in the frequencies below the sibilant area. I just think it sounds better. I have NEVER heard a sibilant or shrieky record that was well bassed if you will to the point that you couldn’t add more

@mirolab , can you explain why my custom grounded Cardas XLR to RCA cables work for CO, Millennia, and Avalon (all strictly pro +4dbu balanced) but not with the Skyline?  Is that not bizarre? Jason at Revive Audio said it’s “something about the topology of the circuitry in the Skyline.”  ??

Ok…impressions of Skyline vs Charter Oak in my HP chain, which is X Sabre 3 balanced streamer/ dac > EQ > Headamp GSX Mini > balanced out to Hifiman HE1000SE. 
 

The Skyline sounds great. The mids are resolute and fully saturated and accurate. Well recorded music is an absolute joy with this piece. With well recorded music and gentle EQ you might get a better experience than CO, although I’d be razor thin. Now with loudness wars over compressed rock music I tend to EQ in more bass and treble. In this scenario I would describe the Skyline as quite capable delivering the goods. The SUB and 40HZ dials do their job well. Quality and quantity of bass added is very satisfying without sacrificing the mids. And the attenuation dial on far left and clipping meter leds work great. There is a broad range on that dial that sounds good, so it’s very useful in a master trim situation when boosts have been applied and it’s needed. Kudos. The Atmosphere shelves are wonderful and all sound great with even vigorous boost without adversely affecting the mids. This unit has TONS of headroom for clean boost. Now, in comparing this unit to CO with more aggressive use of bass and treble dials, I find that the CO treble bands are absolutely gorgeous, and to me just sound more textured and shimmery and sweet. But not by a lot. But yes by a lot compared to Loki Max. Schiit users, again, don’t go for any kind of sizable treble boost. And y’all probably don’t. Skyline and CO hands down beat Loki in that limited use case. In comparing bass dials on Skyline to CO, I’d double down on yesterday’s comments. Bass articulate and very good, but not as textured, layered, nuanced as CO and not as much sub bass kick or mid bass slam. The CO does this better.

In conclusion, I like the Skyline very well for very well recorded modern recordings where you wouldn’t need to boost bass or treble much or at all. But as I type and listen to Red book version of Rush album Moving Pictures, through the Skyline it’s excellent sonically but I am left wanting to put the CO back in the chain. It’s not more resolute in the mids, but really no less either, to be honest. but the kick, slam in lower range and shimmer and sheen in the top octave I can get out of the CO leaves me more pleased for your average older rock recording. My original Mike Deming CO remains on top of the hill for me, Skyline is a wonderful piece. It’s beautifully finished and built like a tank too. 

There is simply nothing made anywhere from pro audio or home audio that comes close to ease of tonal tweaking provided by the excellently designed Max...a great item that's I've used for far more than 20 minutes (a few months actually), and it's performed brilliantly. Great reviews generally everywhere, including from me. It cuts  and boosts wherever I need it to, looks great, makes no noise. I've used pro EQ for many decades in studios, live concert mixing, and home recording and the Max fits in my hifi system beautifully. Nothing will replace it anytime soon.

Agreed, but there is not a single thing the Max does BETTER. except for the remote, which can be huge for some 

Not considering remote, Skyline is just as easy to use, sounds completely transparent, and honestly gives a more hi fi take on bass and treble with more flexibility there. I’d say with 2 db cuts here and there and not much boost elsewhere the two units sound very similar. They are set up similarly as well. Both simple to use. But if you wanna add fun factor V shape for average older and newer rock recordings then Skyline wins. 

It basically comes down to remote vs better V or U shaped sound signature versatility 

I've yet to find an equalizer that doesn't add hiss or noise. I am familiar with the Schiit equalizer you mentioned.  I tried one and got rid of it the same day!  It had to be placed far away from other components or it would cause hum.  It also put out excessive audible noise/ hiss whenever you turned the dials too far clockwise.  If noise and hiss is a concern to you, a digital equalizer would be the answer, but those are very expensive and not really a necessity if your equipment and your room are right. 

I don’t hear any audible hiss at all when listening to music at normal AND loud levels on ANY of the gear we’ve discussed. Good chain through and through and is a non issue. Cannot however speak to Lokius or other non Loki Max Schiit products. Of their line, I’ve only heard the Loki Max. 

I’ve plugged back in the CO and listening to Moving Pictures again. Now I’m totally engaged and toes a tappin’ !  CO beats Skyline at more significant V shape sound signature for sure. I cannot live without my CO. I love this unit. It’s such a shame you cannot buy one like it nowadays, since Mike quit producing them. You’d have to go 4 grand and up to get anything with both the SQ and the powerful bands. I’ve heard 2 with the Millennia and the Avalon that do this. But you need ganged left and right stereo for home on the fly ease and convenience. I’d defer to @mirolab for options there. I don’t know of any. 

You probably got a bad unit...my LOKI Mini @ $149 is silent and does a great job cleaning up bad recordings...BUT  I'm picking up the MQ112 today...I LOVE EQ.

“…the excellently designed Max...a great item that's I've used for far more than 20 minutes (a few months actually)”

To this other snide comment from @wolf_garcia , I’ve got ONE DECADE of familiarity with the CO PEQ-1, and nothing I’ve heard sounds better. 

@mbmi I too have the MQ112 for about 2.5 weeks now and absolutely love it. I would love to know your impression with it when the time comes. 👍

@mijostyn this may interest you regarding deliberate distortion. While looking at the Charter Oaks and Skyline units  a brand called Golden Age Project EQ81.It's designed to distort and ad noise to simulate older recordings played through older tubed equipment. I'm guessing it might emulate the warm sound that I hear from the old Telefunken radio that I inherited.Everything sounds warm and comfortable.

Relentless fragile egos around here...note to self: I really have to try to be more gentle. The Max I have is utterly quiet, but Schiit warns about locating these things near gear with transformers (I worried about that as I have a Bryston Bit-15 with its huge Piltron transformer, but all is well with the Max) ...I also haven't heard any hiss from it when testing higher frequencies so maybe I'm just lucky. I have a couple of Lokis also and they're very quiet. Results may vary I suppose but the Max is superb in my rig. 

Thanks @wolf_garcia   I appreciate the words. I may have touch of fragile ego. It’s possible. But I am passionate about listening and love to share my thoughts, for what they’re worth, about EQ in high end home audio. And yes, I know I talk too much. My wife tells me all the time!🤣

@tlcocks Sorry, if Revive audio themselves cannot tell you why their unit is finicky with certain cables, then I certainly cannot.... not without a schematic, which I'm certain they would deny me!  They even put tape seals on the lid screws so if you take the lid off, you might void the warrantee.  I took the lid off anyway!   Do your 'custom' cables have the ground connected from end to end?   Some cables have the ground terminated at only one end (like a ground lifter) which is NOT a Pro thing to do.     

As for your assessment of Skyline vs. PEQ1... I very much agree about the superior flexibility of the PEQ1's design... I just wish my unit had sounded better.  Let's also keep in mind the PEQ1 new, cost exactly TWICE as much as the Skyline!  That makes Skyline a relative steal for what it is.    

A note on the Lokius eqs.... they are not noisy, but they are more 'sensitive' due to legit L-C circuitry.  They use real inductors for each band, and they will more easily pick up stray magnetic fields.  You'd think Revive Audio could learn a thing or two from Schiit, on providing BOTH balanced and unbalanced I/O.  

I have a very fragile ego. I'm going to go cry in a glass of Tequila. 

a brand called Golden Age Project EQ81.It's designed to distort and ad noise to simulate older recordings played through older tubed equipment.

@jtcf That's called an EQ81 because they are emulating the sound (and circuitry) of the classic Neve 1081 4-band eq.  This is a 70's era Neve console EQ  designed for mixing and tone shaping.  This EQ has color & personality, and is really meant for mixing.  It's not super transparent and does not emulate a tube eq.  It's solid-state all the way.  I've got a Great River EQ-2NV which is also a "Neve-alike" eq.  It sounds amazing for shaping individual instruments and buses.  The high & low shelfs do make good bass & treble controls for a stereo mix.  The mid bands have a bit of color, but are a bit narrow for a stereo mix.  Look up the original Neve 1081... it's beautiful!  I've used Neve preamps, but not the 1081.