Equalizer in a Hi Fi system

For any system under some price,it is impossible to go without  equalization and tone controls... Analog is better S.Q. /price ratio...

I had no experience with very high end...

TONE IS KING!! 
But I must have resolution, pace, stage, dynamics and timbre also!  I simply am not satisfied unless I have it all!  And I’d rather do it my way than spend 200K on a system with no tone controls!

To the treble cutters, the truth is that if you added a modest nice broad bass shelf of  say 4 db or so and possibly a mild touch of mids boost, then you’d never cut treble. You’d want to boost with a high quality treble shelf or bell. When we hear  music and want to cut treble (lean, presence region forward with straight signal), it’s almost always better to do the boosts mentioned above than cut. But only if the EQ is up to snuff. You really need analog EQ to do this right. And almost every audiophile uses digital. Which doesn’t boost well, particularly in 2 or 3 places in the FR. Gotta be analog!

I love folks like yourself, Denis, who are not afraid to seek out good quality treble tone control and Boost…for better space, timbre and harmonic structure in upper range. Often mids sound more realistic doing so, as I think you have also found.  Too many audiophiles absolutely do not know what they are missing because they are treble shy and only cut there. And likely that’s because of poor implementation on that tone control or EQ, making a boost sound bad. As I have said before, finding a true balanced transparent treble tone control that enhances the music boosted without degrading is truly a magic experience with hi fi gear. The true Keys to the Kingdom!

👍🎧🎶

My first acoustic dedicated room takes me 2 years full time to make... (100 Helmholtz resonators among many others devices)

I sold my house 2 years ago by obligation...

 My second dedicated room is smaller and not comparable to the first, good but with smaller speakers, and in nearfield...

my main system is now  AKG K340 for serious listenings...

It rival my first room near it but do not beat it. No headphone can beat an acoustically well done system/room...

 It takes me 6 months to experiment with the K340... Trust me to optimize it you must understand how it work.... Expert headphone reviewer gave it a critics not completely positive because he did not know how to use them... It takes me 6 months  and using the patent...

All my other headphones sound like trash  ( 2 electrostatic, 2 planars  6 dyna«mics) i never go back to them again..

I used the sextett also designed by Dr. Gorike for my secondary system (documentary, series, youtube etc)..

My small speakers are so well embedded now i can listen music but it does not equal the K340 naturalness and holography...I use the Douk T8 pro tube  equaliser, for the low price which is very useful...

I dont need more because you cannot couple a thousand bucks equalizer with low cost active speakers...

 I wish i could bought the EQ you recommended but i will never upgrade my speakers systems and the K340 go astoundingly well with Sansui alpha tone controls...

@mahgister ,

I wish I could hear your naturally tuned system with the resonators you use coupled with your Sansui EQ!  I will simply bet for the relatively small monetary outlay that it sounds heavenly!

@mahgister ,

I wish I could hear your naturally tuned system with the resonators you use coupled with your Sansui EQ!  I will simply bet for the relatively small monetary outlay that it sounds heavenly!

“ If i boosted with my tone control  the higher frequencies, the violin become celestial honey and any bass head will become High head...”

I love this quote. Exactly!

i am pretty sure you are right!

But i had no  extended experience with EQ as you demonstrated here...

Just an anecdote :

My analog tone control of the Sansui alpha are very good...

It is the top of Sansui design history...

My AKG K340 are a TOP headphone for many reasons...

 The electrostatic cell of this hybrid work gradually  till 4,000 HERTZ crossover for the dynamic cell...

 If i boosted with my tone control  the higher frequencies, the violin become celestial honey and any bass head will become High head...

This prove what good analog tone control can do ...

I cannot do that with my digital equalizer which i use also to reach nearer Harman curve (with success though)

But only the tone control give me ecstasy after hours of violins listening on good recording with no fatigue, no tinnitus, or stress... On the contrary like a bass head i want more higher frequencies..

 It is also proof how a K340 well driven can reach (deep bass and out of the head sound-stage with natural timbre) i never touch in any of my other 10 headphones which are  in the bin trash now...(Save the sextett K240 as secondary tool designed by the same Dr. Gorike as my K340 even if for sure they dont even compare they beat the AKG K701 unnatural timbre )

If i had money i will buy one of the EQ you recommended for sure....

But i am happy as i am right now with my 2 systems anyway...

i just wanted to confirm from my experience what you just said :

No doing cuts with a digital EQ or crappy analog EQ will NEVER get the kind of full saturated, note dense, 3D, harmonically pleasing, “tone is king” kind of result I’m getting.

Incidentally that Charter Oak on EBay sold like 2 days after I posted about it. They are tonally wonderful EQs and the pros know it. They are rare gear and highly sought after. 

Can’t attach link. Don’t know why. Sheesh. Google Icon Collective what’s the best effects chain order for mixing?  So annoying!  Sorry. Read section 5.  
I argue that with a finished product, a post mastered recording, that tonal and only tonal EQ plays a role. Not corrective EQ. That is in my mind only applicable in mixing and mastering in the studio. And from reading this thread you know what that means… in the playback scenario only analog EQ and only boosts. Don’t take it from me. Read what’s out there.  That’s absolutely been my personal experience with all kinds of EQ. And my boost only analog only approach seems vindicated by every thing I read. No doing cuts with a digital EQ or crappy analog EQ will NEVER get the kind of full saturated, note dense, 3D, harmonically pleasing, “tone is king” kind of result I’m getting. The caveat though is that now I’ve played with a number of analog EQ hardware devices. They are NOT all created equal. Particularly when it comes to treble. You have to find a great one. But when you do it is the “keys to the Kingdom “ and nothing beats it b

I have found an interesting article.  On tonal vs corrective EQ  see link I will send  

I have checked further this CO on EBay. It’s in PRISTINE like new condition. Someone who wants high end analog tone and whose system is all XLR balanced really ought to jump on this!  It WILL sell quick. That’s how great they sound. If I didn’t own 3 right now I’d buy it immediately!

I dont doubt that the Sansui EQ is very good...

I always used a Sansui alpha for my headphone, especially after i tried one year ago one of the top tube headphone amplifier to replace it... ( i will not name it because it is a good headphone amp no doubt,if not i would have not order it,  but not for my K340  picky needs, no headphone amplifier can drive the K340 ideally )

It takes me 15 minutes to return it back so much the difference was huge on all count (save the noise floor level way better with this upgrade costly linear power supply which go with it even if the Sansui noise floor is good it is not pure black but all other factors were  completely absent, holography, timbre naturalness, out of the head soundfield, physical tactile bass etc )

The Douk T8 pro is peanuts cost and do not introduce noise... ( audible from my system)

I will not use the Douk in a costly system... But i can recommend it for anyone who cannot put a 2,000 bucks equalizer in a few thousand bucks audio system for sure...

I am curious to compare the Douk to any equalizer under 500 bucks...

I know another who speaks highly of onboard Sansui EQ in pre. The Douk T8 Pro7. Looks cool. I wonder for sh-ts and giggles how it’d conmpare sonically to CO. Temptyto find out. Cheap on Amazon. 

I know another who speaks highly of onboard Sansui EQ in pre. The Douk T8 Pro7. Looks cool. I wonder for sh-ts and giggles how it’d conmpare sonically to CO. Temptyto find out. Cheap on Amazon. 

I use two low cost equalizer...

One was the Douk  tube equaliser TB pro 7 levels for my low cost powered speakers... With success at peanuts cost... Great immediate improvement...

( i add others improvements at no cost but it is impossible now to communicate some experiments without being mocked )

I use the internal equalizer of my Hidizs  to improve greatly the AKG K340 hibtyd...

Not only that but i use the tone control of the Sansui alpha...

Why ?

Because there is 2 cells working in the K340, one electrostatic and one dynamic with a crossover at 4,000 Hertz...

I max the highs on the tone control and the highs already good become celestial...

Not only i had deep clear bass as the heaviest organ tone, but the violin put me in ectasy... The mids are totally natural...

It takes me 6 months of research and experiment with 6 optimizations modifications even reading the patent of Dr. Gorike to understand how this TOP headphone can work with his 5 resonators and his dual acoustic chamber volume.  (it is the more complex ever designed because most use only  one type of  cell ,planar dynamic or electrostatic...)

Tone controls and equalization for a better S.Q.  is as claimed by

https://www.ebay.com/itm/277064890882?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=-c_owSiBTry&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=vlylgtfgsgk&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=MORE

Above is about a used like new CO for sale on eBay. I inquired of the age and got the above answer. THIS IS A GREAT GREAT FIND!  Someone should jump on it. 

“I met Mike at NAMM in Anaheim, January 2014. I was looking at his EQ, and he talked me into buying the compressor as well. I wrote him a check on the spot for both, and took them home after the show. So I suppose technically they should be called demo units, but only demonstrated by Mike, and from the looks of them, very little. I used them briefly for an archival restoration, and then put them back in their boxes, and forgot about them until years later when I moved. That's the truth! 

Oh, I have my check stub for the purchase, that I can show you if you are serious about buying them. Also, I did just take them out and test them on my AP, and they are fine in all respects. No scratchy pots or other age-related issues.”

Ian

The VOX software fully parametric EQ for Qobuz is the best software EQ I’ve heard to date, sonically. I am using it exclusively with my exercise buds, Senne Momentum TW 4. While it can do largely anything without distortion, which is great, it still lacks that 3D soundstage depth and roundness of notes and full layered textures that my CO delivers. So I still feel for my use case of adding tone, analog EQ better. Admit though results are highly variable. I’ve been lucky to have found a couple of good boxes out there. 😊🎶

Giving @bigwave1 a shout out for favorably mentioning his Charter Oak PEQ-1 on “biggest influence on…” thread recently. Thanks Dave!  Dave has always killer system. BTW,  I brought my 3rd CO unit up to Audible Images in Melbourne FL. Heard it in between Mac tube pre and mono blocks driving Sonus Faber. The 20 k and 40 hz were glorious bands!

I am super curious how well treble target curves work when you have actively done crossover using your high end DSP system and biamping. So very curious. @mijostyn ?  Comments?  We’re talking a broad bell centered at 15khz with a Q of 0.65-1. 1 probably better and more natural. 

@jtcf , still enjoying your studio equalizer?

I confess to being lazy in the last year with pursuing digital EQ for both room correction or target curves. One day…it’s hard to make changes to something so good. 

A little update on aftermarket PCs from an EQ perspective. Joy of all joys, two great things are observed with my system nowadays. 1.  More and better bass. Better more popping and detailed articulation in mids. These are great great baseline changes that I would always equivocate with better hi fi. 2.  Surprisingly more headroom with analog bass boost so less prone to analog distortion. I didn’t expect this one. I love that at this point I have this current system maxed out completely. Only component or speaker upgrades can improve it now. 
Aftermarket PCs really matter! 

All these changes- new power cords, new digital spdif cord, and last but not least new tweeters- have the system fully saturated to the point to where the EQ settings are much better. And less. No more tricks like needing to bump up mids slightly and 120 hz slightly while toying with 15 kHz and smidge down at 5 kHz. Now it’s simply using 40 hz for bass and 20 kHz for treble. Everything else dead flat. If I DO on some darker recordings need bigger treble I switch to 15 kHz and back 5khz down 1/3 dot, leaving all the mid dials flat, and NOW with the added power and more saturated mids it sounds PERFECT, without any lower treble / upper mids suck out. In conclusion, the EQ interacts perfectly and better than it used to, even, to accomplish my listening ends. 
I made the discovery that when you push multiple other dials above flat even a little, like 1/3 dot, that you cannot drop 5 kHz by as much before the presence region is impaired. Guess it’s all relative and makes sense. But with cheaper cords when I set 120 hz, 500 hz, and 2 kHz all flat like I am now, it sounded recessed and a touch poor. Am sorry so long winded but wanted to elaborate on how better cabling improved mids and dynamics on the EQ and simplified settings. There’s also less overdrive (potential for distortion) as well, as all dials are set less and the resultant EQd sound is now only slightly louder than tape loop OUT (true bypass). Am very very happy with these changes. 😊🎶

Haven’t posted here in a while. While I haven’t explored digital EQ yet, I HAVE made some cable upgrades and replaced my aging ML ATF transducer tweeters to great benefit. I am hearing more detailed presence region, more extended airier treble, dialing in less EQ, and hearing tighter more articulate and more punchy dynamic bass. Overall dynamics clarity immediacy are better with cable upgrades. I have learned through loaners from TCC that my equipment favors single conductor 10 AWG. There is not a single stock cord left. Oh, the upgrades are one DiMarzio M-Path 3 x 12 AWG conductors on the PEQ-1 and Audience Forte F3 everywhere else. The 1.5 M digital coaxial Shunyata Theta cable for my Aries has also contributed nicely. Great stuff!

I believe that i previously said that I used to use a top of the line DBX equalizer. I no longer need it since my room is completely treated and is semi-anechoic.   

I will be putting it on eBay soon, or if you are interested, you can reach out to me directly. 
 

Good luck. 

Assume skimped on internals as well. Didn’t explain that well

Unfortunately I don’t anymore. Mike quit supervising the other company s work around 2018 and they changed production. Changed faceplate. Sounded inferior from that point on. 

Most all electronics in the pro world are unbalanced, "single ended" and use transformers to obtain balanced connections to the outside world.  The CO is no exception.  In the HiFi world, with very few long cable runs, I opine that balanced is unnecessary BUT a users choice.  And they do add their own sound.  The transformers are from CineMag - CMO / CML.

All of the CO electronic products were originally made in the Dominican Republic by a company that did VERY nice work.  Lost track of CO shortly after that project.  Do know that Mike D tried to bring production into the US and encountered a few false starts. Had/have no idea if the company he later worked with continued production of his products.  If so the build could be VERY different than the original (layout and parts selection).  Maybe tlcocks can post a pic of the ORIGINAL insides. 

@erik_squires +1

transformer coupled inputs make perfect sense from circuit design side, specifically if long balanced 600 Ohms cables used between impedance matched units. Jeff Rowland uses those for almost all his designs! The “only” problem is a very high cost of good ones :-). 

Personally a fan of trasnformer coupled inputs, especially their rejection of ground loops.  If you bypass either, do the outputs.

@stellavox1  - Any idea who made them?

If you're able, suggest bypassing either the input or output transformers - or both. Never liked their "sound"

Thanks for sharing!  Very cool. I own 3 CO PEQ-1 now. Nothing else sounds quite like it!

Hi Guys,

Just stumbled across this thread. 

I designed the PEQ-1 for Mike D way back when.  It is pretty much a "fit/form/function" copy of the Pallette preamplifier.  Per Mike's request, added the switchable frequency center points PLUS the top end 50K freq he wanted.  

Made up one for myself, sans transformers, in a small box like the Loki.  Have that on the end of a 25ft umbilical so I can use/adjust it from the listening position - with an in/out switch and gain trim for both channels.  Still use and enjoy it after all these years.  Yep - PROGRAM equalization, when necessary, works for me.  Glad you enjoy it also!

Yes, agreed to all. But I love having hi fi tone controls. I have learned in my experimentation with many different pro EQ’s that some certainly are more appropriate in post production playback than others. I think the less complex EQ coupled with good circuit design and quality parts can lead to a very musical and gratifying listening experience. While more complex instruments with more functions and more filters can be too clinical or analytical. My next steps in my hi fi evolution are trying room corrective digital EQ as I’ve previously mentioned, but at least as important, upgrading speaker cable or even speakers and streaming sources to provide the higher fidelity foundation BEFORE any EQ is dialed in. Luckily, I have had for a while now a SQ that I’m really into in a big way. 

@tlcocks 

No, I do not use a professional EQ in my home 2-ch system.  I have used EQ units (together with several other processors), principally in a recording studio setup, where any "processing effect", can be routed through a patch bay, and be inserted into a signal path.  Of course the studio setting is very different from a home set-up.  In the studio, the "raw" talent sources are always unique/different, so the engineer will select as necessary whatever processing my be required.  This is totally different from the playback of commercially (finished) mastered (analog or digital) music on our home systems.  It's the mastering engineer's job to produce masters that will be highly listenable on MANY different systems.  Whether your system can get the maximum sonic results out of the mastering engineers efforts is dependent on the synergy of the gear choices you make.  As you know, theoretically, if you have well matched speakers, amps, preamp, sources, and even cables, you should be able to experience the result the mastering engineer intended in a sonically pleasing fashion.      

Ok yes. I understand. Makes sense. 

@tlcocks  things like baffle step correction and the crossover is altering FR to blend the drivers.

Food for thought, "The more you limit a driver in the frequency domain, the less well defined it's output will be in the time domain" Stereophile Nov 2004.

My speakers cross over at 2.5 kHz. Dipole tweeters to midrange woofers. I only use a pro analog EQ for tone control. Did you mean somehow an equalizer built into the speakers?  I’m confused. 

If your speakers have a crossover chances are you are using an equalizer.

Having looked now at both manuals, it appears the Trinnov is easier to use and understand. It’s considerably pricier but with that SHOULD come better results sonically. Within the next year or less, I will buy and try a Trinnov Amethyst. 

Thanks Mike

@tlcocks  I think you are better off with a computer connected to it by USB. The ap has a steep learning curve. Using Dirac Live is easy, but getting use to the control functions of the SHD requires some learning as the program was written by Asians and they think differently then we do. I think trying to learn it on an iPad would slow you down. Once the SHD is full programmed to your liking all you need is the remote.

@mijostyn , so I’m looking at manual. You DO need a computer connected to the SHD via wired to use Dirac Live, yes?  iPad only a remote for basic functions?

@tlcocks You can use an iPad with any of them. I did not go with the Trinnov because their bass management was not versatile enough. The DEQX is not ready for prime time yet, but it will be the best of the bunch eventually. MiniDSP uses Dirac Live and it is easy to use. I currently recommend people get a MiniDSP SHD Studio and two high quality DACs like the Benchmarks or the Bricasti M1 if you have the money.  

Thinking Trinnov. You tell me. Also can operate Trinnov preamp from iPad. Like that. Don’t want use computer. 

@mijostyn , which sounds best?  Trinnov, Dirac, or the mini DSP?  I have conversed with the Trinnov dealer and have access. Want the one that SOUNDS best. Price no object. Want good tone curves superimposed on all the microphone measurements based correction. This DSP preamp correction will, once tuned in, be compared directly against my best analog EQ. 
Thanks Mike!

Best,

Tim

@tlcocks  The easiest system to use is Dirac Live. I know people who are using the MiniDSP SHD Studio and two high quality dacs with great success. It also streams and has a built in equalizer. I have personally set up two such systems and turned two rather pedestrian systems into exceptional performers given their price points.