Don Sachs Owners Thread

The DS Valhalla and Kootenai are hidden gems. I didn’t design them, that’s all on Don, but Spatial is selling them at very fair prices, considering what’s inside ... point-to-point wiring, high-end caps, a classic circuit, and an all-octal tube lineup.

Yes, I've owned a DS preamp too. That's how I met Don, and things went from there.

@ptrck887 I tried the SVS footers which good results with the DS preamp.

 

I've unfortunately am moving from the DS preamp.  It's a great tube preamp which I enjoyed and gave me a good introdution what a tube pre could sound in my setup.  With my new NSMT 100 speakers, the sound just sounded to colored with the DS.  I did try a more neutral sounding tube like Sylvania but then things became a bit too analytical for me.  Couldn't find a middle ground with the tubes I had on hand so I decided to try my Placette passive again.  The neutrality of the Placette brought back the balance I was looking for when I had the DS preamp and my Maggie 1.6's.  

Things have been hectic for me lately and hope to put the DS up 4sale in the near future. Keeping holding on that I may switch back to the DS but at this point seem unlikely.  Even my wife agrees she really likes the current setup.

@ptrck887 , I have my unit sitting on a 2’’ maple platform & tried many different materials & Panega heavy feet that made a huge difference in PRAT with my unit. I’m also trying some Maple Shades heavy feet on top, but don’t hear any improvement in sound.

Hello All!

Curious....any DS II owners experimenting with footers?  Don's cases are all wood, including the bottom cover.  On my pre's I have always used 3" maple platforms and Symposium Acoustics Svelte Shelf Plus.  Typically footers have been Stillpoint Ultras but pretty sure the wood to Stillpoint interface isn't very good so switched to Symposium Rollerblock Jrs.  Seems to work better but I seem to be running into a rash of microphonic tubes, both in the 6SN7 positions and the rectifier, which in my model is 5U4G, 5AR4 or the NOS Winged C 5C3S that Don supplied....a very good rectifier BTW.  Just wondering if the footers are actually amplifying the vibrations rather than dampening them.  Any other owners experimenting with footers?  

Another subject.....I just replaced a McIntosh MC275VI Tube amp which worked very well with the DS II, with a Pass Labs XA25....another stellar match.  Speakers are modded Cornwall IV's.

Thanks All!

Just introducing myself as a Don Sachs Valhalla owner which was actually made by Cloud over at Spatial Audio Labs after Don taught Cloud how to make the amp. Really loving it.  

There have been different configurations, but I believe that the buffers are on the right.

There have been different configurations, but I believe that the buffers are on the right.

Thanks for this, so next question... which side are the power tubes and which side are the buffer tubes?

I have a pretty extensive collection of matched pairs of 6SN7's due to having been a Schiit Freya owner.

Hi Andy, left right. Disagreements on tubes are to be expected. Two Ken Rads, Raytheons, etc. from the same batch may sound different as most were largely man made. Worse, Mr. X has amp A, while Mr. Z has amp B. Hot tubes offset crap coupling caps in amp X, but sound horrid in a system with a neutral amp. Same for speakers, sources, etc. Then there are hearing issues. An acquaintance of mine has very damaged high frequency hearing. He loves a Japanese girl band that would send most people running with their shrill music, he loves them. There are too many variables to know that if you buy musical heaven shall be reached. If you have a Schitt Yggdrasil, a very decent midfi DAC, some, a very few, songs may make your ears bleed if the rest of the system is neutral. Some might blame a certain tube in that system because the prior tube had slightly muted highs, and certainly it isn't the Yggdrasil, though it actually is.... People love 2CE Vandersteens, they sound like my speakers with a several layer blanket over them. To them my speakers are hot, and they don't really do much above 15KHz, virtually nothing goes that high unless you do electronic music, yet a Yggdrasil playing Kokomo can drive you nuts with them, or the Thiel CS7's, or B&W 801Ms that preceeded them. So, look for general information and don't necessarily expect even that to apply in your system. The 1964 and before Soviet tubes, by far, sound better in my system, but I have a highly modified Lampizator, a Levinson 27.5, and no crossover to dumb down the music. Oh, my DS2 has the VHAudio caps Don uses bypassed by Chris' best Teflon V-Caps in addition to the great V-Caps Don uses for more accurate highs. The coupling caps in the Lampizator are also double bypassed with CuFT's and the ODAM V-Caps. I love Chris' wire as well as his caps. Anyway, my system is as neutral as I could get it. Still, if you had my system, you may still prefer different tubes than I prefer. Personal biases, like taste in music, is going to vary.

Here is the note that came with mine, from Don:

"The left side pair is the main tube with all the gain, and the pair in the middle of the deck are the buffers, which are unity gain. Front tube in each pair is left ch, and rear tube is right channel. Just think right = rear." 

Hi,

New member here so go easy please!

I live in the UK and have just bought a pre-owned Don Sachs line stage 2.

Looking through this thread there seems to be conflicting info on if the 6SN7's are paired front/back or left/right.

 

Can anyone confirm please?

Many thanks

Andy

 

I would run the nicest tubes you have in these positions.  

Thank you!

In my experience, yes.  The center/input tube seemed to impact the sound as much as the gain tubes on the pre.  I would run the nicest tubes you have in these positions.  

Anyone with experience changing the 6sn7 tubes on the kootenay amp? Are they as important for sound as the input tubes on the DS pre? Toob Noob here, happy to get any input on the question. 

Are there any Sachs preamp owners in the San Diego area?

For fun, I rolled in some RCA (orange letter) in the output.  Good tubes.  Added some texture where is more velvet like smooth.  Had more lower mid and upper bass.  I didn’t find it as musical as the Raytheon and went back to the Raytheon a short time after. 

@wag12wag12 I agree the Shunguang cv-181 are good tubes.  I could have left my setup with the 4 in my DS but that’s the not reason why I got a tube preamp.  I wanted to roll some tubes. 
 

The combo I’ve settled on so far 

input Ken Rad vt231 black glass

output Raytheon vt231 t-plates

rectifier Raytheon brown base

 

I found the KR to be similar to the Shunguang but more extended on the bottom and little more on top.  The Raytheon add a little “sweetness” to the top end that made the whole setup more musical where it gets tour toe tapping and gives a you sense of a little boogie in your seat.  The Raytheon brown base rectifier replace the Sylvania v126 and it smoothed the presentation.  The Sylvania made me “anxious” and Raytheon calms everything down to enjoy the music. 
 

@rbautista  I don't have a DS preamp, but I have a integrated tube amp that uses 2 6SL7s and 2 6SN7s with 4 KT88s.  It came with 2 6H8C and 2 6H9C Russian tubes with the disc at the bottom. They actually sounded pretty good but could sound similar to the way you described your 7N7 tubes and could sound a little forward and hot on the top at times.  At first listen they sound very good but if you listen for longer periods then they start to wear on you.  I replaced the Russian tubes with some Shuguang CV181-Z and Linlai E-6SL7 tubes and that was a big improvement and I'm very happy with the sound now.  I tried a lot of NOS tubes but I didn't find any that I liked better than the my current Shuguang / Linai combination.  I did buy some RCA VT-231 grey glass tubes recently and I was very impressed with them and thought they were the best NOS 6SN7 tubes that I have tried so far. I'm still trying to decide if I like them better than the Shuguang CV181-Z, but it is hard because they sound very much alike. I'm happy now that I have two sets of  6SN7 tubes that I really like. I tried some RCA red base 5692s and some Raytheon 6SN7WGTs and they do not sound better than the RCA VT-231s in my amplifier. The RCA VT-231s are also a lot cheaper about $75 each on Ebay.

Does anyone have experience using the Linlai KT88-T tubes. I just ordered a quad of the Shuguang WEKT88 Plus on AliExpress. They were very hard to find and expensive; I could have saved $150 buy ordering a quad of the the Linlai KT88-Ts instead.  I'm thinking maybe I should have ordered the Linlai as Shuguang hasn't made any tubes for over three years so I'm worried the quality of the tubes I will be getting.  I do have bias pots on the top of my tube amp so even if they aren't a close match, I'm thinking I should be able to adjust the idle current so they are all the same using the bias pots.

@bugredmachine I'm using some Shuguang CV181-z tubes right now and really like them. You seemed to have tried out all of the tubes that I'm interested in. You said the Linlai were too noisy; was that the E-6SN7 model? How did the Psvane CV181-T compare to the Shuguang CV181-Z tubes?

Thanks,

wag12wag12

Just ordered some ‘54 CBS/Hytron 6sn7gt (black base, white lettering).  Hoping they will pull a bit more detail than the Shuguang like the 7n7 did but not be too in your face.  Maybe a some top end “sparkle”.  I’ll find out next week when I get them. 

The Shuguang tubes Don was using prior to the Linlai tubes are pretty good, IME. I just did a better/worse between the Linlai and Soviet tubes and the Soviet tubes were fuller where the Linlai tubes tapered off sooner. The Soviet tubes just sound a little more life-like. That said, until I heard the Soviet tubes I was smitten with the Linlais.

I’m back to using the Shuguang in the output buffer

rbautista, I believe that those are 1965 or newer, I have some but haven't listened to them. I believe that all of the ones I bought came from Europe, mostly from the Ukraine. I bought a lot of them in December I believe that they all arrived safely, at most there could be one shipment out there, but the late date was February, so I haven't bothered to check yet. They have the square/rectangular plate at the bottom. The ones with the disk at the bottom are newer. 1964 or before seems to be the division. With the square getter being the proof.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

@lous what soviet tubes do you have or recommend? Did a quick search and they are on the lower end which could be a fun tweak. VivaTubes has some for $13/tube. Are those the ones or do you have the Melz?

Hi rbautista,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I need to revisit the Ken Rads to be sure. They were necessary in the first version of the Schiit Freya in order to have a sound stage, and the oldest Raytheons were needed for tonality issues, but when I first got the DS2 they were not so great. I did 6BY5 rectifier conversion, and went to the ODAM and CuFT cap conversion as well as swappinge some Duelund wire for VH Audio hook-up wire, so I should check them out again.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I’ll have to check out the 6H8C and try some time. 
 

I’m really liking these Ken Rads.  The 7N7 Sylvania I’m still trying to figure out if I like the Shuguang more in the output.  The Sylvania seem the be neutral or what I call transparent since a lot more detail is coming through.  More noticeable than the Shuguang.  The 7N7 can sound a bit forward with some recordings.  I don’t want to say they sound bright but the highs seem to be tipped a bit too much. 
 

I then did a test where I turned the gain for each channel one click lower.  Seems all the info I heard before is still there but the highs aren’t tipped to where it can sound bright.  
 

I don’t know much about the gain controls.  The instructions from Don says to start at full throttle so that’s where I put them. Are the gain knobs used for impedance matching?   Are others leaving at full throttle or do you lower to fine tune?  My OCD wants me to crank it back to full since that’s what Don recommended and I feel like I’m limiting what is going through. 

invalid and @jackd, IME your system is no stronger than the weakest link. OTOH, music is very personal, so weakest link is subjective. So, reviews of tubes are going to vary based upon the neutrality of the system, and the predilections of the user. I tend to error on the side of neutrality, or what I perceive as neutrality. I judge neutrality based upon music without electrical power as once you introduce electricity there is no way to actually know how an electric guitar or synthesizer is supposed to sound. OTOH, with a neutral system you, if you know cymbals for instance, you can determine the manufacturer. I don't know cymbals, but those who do can differentiate on neutral systems I'm told. Anyway, old tubes, 6SN7, or 7N7s historically have been disappointing in my system. The E-6SN7s by Linlai sound pretty good. 1964 and older 6H8C Soviet tubes sound the best. The DS2 has various output capacitors. Mine had V-Caps, ODAMs, bypassed with CuFT's, which are very transparent, aka accurate. All of this will impact the sound of the tubes. Ultimately what I like may not be worth anything to someone looking for different attributes and neither of us is wrong because music is personal. I know nothing about newer versions of Vandersteen speakers, but older ones buried details, IME, but while I hate that about them, others love it, neither is right or wrong, we are just listening in ways that appeal to us. The end result is pretty hedonistic IMO, so what another wants is subjective and is therefore only right or wrong in the ears of the particular listener matters. That said, the 1964 and prior 6H8C tubes with the square getter, IME are awesome. I haven't revisited my NOS tubes since several critical upgrades have been made to my system, but I am not expecting any surprises. This opinion was worth every cent you paid for it.

@jackd what Linlai tubes did you have? I find the Linlai elite tubes to sound better than the nos ken rad vt231, now will they last as long is another question.

If those Ken Rad's are in fact from 1943 then they are the same tube as the VT-231's which was the designation for Military tubes.  Same tubes different badging. That would make them 6SN7GT's for normal sales channels. The fact that replacing the other pair of Chinese tubes with any good quality NOS tube improved things is not a surprise.  I found the Shuguang's that came with my DS2 and the Linlai's to be a big disappointment. 

@ptrck887 

I just went through the tube roll exercise.  I got my DS with 4 Shuguang and a Sylvania 6X5gt rectifier. 
 

I asked an old audiophile friend some tube recommendations since we have similar tastes for our system.  Top recommendation was the Tung Sol round/oval black plates.  Those were out of my price league right now.  Next were Ken Rad vt-231, 50’s Sylvania 6sn7w, 5692 RCA. 
 

I was in talks with Brent Jesse for some Ken Rad vt-231 clear glass.  Then I was gifted with Ken Rad 6sn7 188-5 date code 8-43.  They didn’t have the vt-231 or 6sn7 designation and only say Ken Rad.  I installed them in the input stage and left the Shuguang in the output.  From the start, bass was improved and had more detail.  As they warmed up more music snapped into focus and there was more separation and layering.  By the second day, the KR bloomed but the bottom end seemed tubby(?).  Did some research what to roll in the output stage.  I wasn’t able to find much info about tubes for the output but did find a post about one audiophile using 7N7 with an adapter.  From what I gathered, the 7N7 is a drop-in replacement with the adapter.  Supposedly, all 7N7 were manufactured by Sylvania.  National Union did make some and are very rare.  The construction of the short and tall  7N7 are similar to the Bad Boys/Chrome Domes.  Think one even suggested similar the the 6sn7w.  With the 7N7 in the output, everything got refined. More micro-details, lower noise floor, more solid bass.  Took the KR to another level.  I do wonder what the KRvt-231 would sound but for now am very happy.  As the 7N7 warm up/break-in more, I’ll report back if they will stay.  From what gathered, Sylvania’s can sound bright in some systems. 
 

 

Hi ptrck887,

I am surprised you find the Linlai tubes hazy and unfocused.  They are very transparent in my DS2 and throw a large soundstage/image well.  I have only tried recent and current production tubes from Psvane, Shuguang and Linlai, and prefer four of the Linlai's to any combination involving these other brands.  I use a Sylvania 6BY5GA rectifier and prefer this to a few other modestly priced rectifier tubes. Given how sweet the Linlai's sound, I have no interest in exploring the NOS rabbit hole :)

Cheers, Soren 

Hello all,

Took delivery of a DS II about 6 weeks ago.  First off, Don is a great guy.  Love the pre, replaced a Modwright LS100 which is also great.  Don's has more detail and more punch.   As a dedicated tube roller I have most 6sn7's in house as well as a variety of rectifiers.  Don built mine for 5V or 5U4G types.  I am a bit surprised, not alot of tube rolling info out there......burned mine in with the supplied Linlai tubes and to my ears sort of hazy and unfocused.  Not a fan.  My favorite is the Melz 1578 but as Don predicted,  a bit hot.  95% of my playlist they are outstanding but on some get a bit edgy.   RCA VT-231 nice but lose come punch.  Raytheon VT-231 kind oh lifeless.  Have some Ken Rad Blackglass in coming.   Anyone have experience with the Ken Rad clear glass?  Never been a Sylvania 6sn7  fan but haven't tried them yet in Don's.  Any input from other tube rollers out there?  BTW, rectifier I'm running is the Mullard GZ37 fat bottle.  Wonderful.

Thanks

So who's got a Don Sachs preamp in the Los Angeles area who'd be nice enought to let me hear it.  I've got the itch to swap out my Cary SLP98 F1.  

I am in Santa Clarita, Ca.  Current system is Cary SLP98 F1, fully modded SMC Audio DNA1 amp, Usher Dancer Mini2 floor standers, Denafrips Pontus2 DAC,  full Acoustic Zen interconnects and Goertz silver speaker cables.   

I don't know if I should one of Don's pre or send my Cary in for upgrades.  I love/hate this hobby.  

 

 

@rbaughman welcome to the Don Sachs component thread. You have a great sounding linestage. I have a Bendix rectifier. It is punchy and kind of forward sounding. Exciting, but not very subtle. I find it a little fatiguing. 

Don't think you have to worry about starting a fire with tubes. Though it is possible for a tube to take out other parts. This seems less likely with a linestage. I have had the problem with amp power tubes. Even that didn't start a fire.

Thanks,

aldnorab

Tubes go bad, Brent Jesse does through testing, as do Kevin Deals' people. I haven't heard of a DS2 going up in flames, but anyone who deals with tubes should tell you in no uncertain terms that they can, and not to leave them on and unattended. That said, there is little dboutvof 2 things. 1. Highly reputable dealers tubes are rigorously tester. 2. That will cost you more money as they have to purchase more tubes, and sell less than they buy as a result. Even if you were to buy a top of the line tube tester, you likely won't know how to dial it in to get them best results.

I’ve had Roy’s power cord cooking since last Thurs.  It has tamed the forwardness with the cheap computer cord the prev owner provided.  
 

Brent Jesse returns from his holiday break 1/9. I may contact him about the Kend Rad or RCA short glass. 
 

I’ve been tempted to try more economical choices from fleabay buy am nervous about a tube shorting or a fire starting.   There is a rectifier I want to try Bendix or Tungstram but am leery.  

On this topic, what 6BY5 tubes are you all liking/preferring?  I have a few different types but keep returning to the Sylvania and GE tubes. 

 

Cheers, Soren

The only true upgrade, other than a modification allowing the use of a 6BY5 would be the Bendex 6X5 compatible rectifier. I believe that they run about 100 or 200 dollars.

 

Lou

Anyone rolled the rectifier?

 

My version uses the 6x5gt and came with JAN Sylvania 6x5gt/vt-126b.

I know newer versions use a different rectifier but Mr. Sachs doesn’t do upgrades anymore due to being semi-retired. He explained to me he will fix my pre if it’s broken but will not do upgrades.

any recommendations if it’s worth upgrading the Sylvania. I was thinking RCA vt126 or Mullazrd ez35.

I was able to purchase a replacement remote from Roy.  I am thankful for his outstanding customer service.  I may have a Don Sachs pre but he was willing to help out on diagnose.  I also purchases one of his power cords which helped tame the slight forwardness (not brightness’s)I was experiencing. 

I may still get the KR tubes but no urgency now.  Will sit back and enjoy for now. 
 

hope the rest are having great holiday.  

Input tube question. What I want is a more middle to front presentation. Currently, I feel like I’m standing right up against the stage in a concert.

The Shuguangs sounds really good paired with the 6201 Sylvania GOld Brand in my Lector DAC. I tried RCA’s in the dac. It gave the middle-front presentation I’m looking for but timbre for instruments don’t sound the same as the 6201 and the hoghs are rolled off a bit.

I’m thinking of rolling the input tubes as a starting point. 2 recommendations to me are

 

Ken Rad vt-231 clear glass

RCA 6sn7GTB 1950’s short bottle

 

Looking for other recommendations to get the same timbre and realism as the Shuguang but more middle-front hall presentation.  Also thoughts on the 2 current recommendations 

Well, unless we’re talking Nelson Pass, most circuits are based upon other designs. Cascade amplification, according to Stan Warren, was designed by Nelson who never patented it, and the vast majority of solid state amplifiers reportedly use it. In tubes, I believe that most refer to an old RCA publication as a start. So sure, Roy may have used an existing design to start with, most do, but he blew it up into a fantastic design, Don made further refinements and turned into a state of the art preamp. Bless them all, IMO.

I'm pretty sure that Roy used John Broskie’s buffer stage, Broskie is the real genius.

Now that I think about it, I haven't contacted Roy in years, his outlook may have changed. I may be talking about a Roy from a different era.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I shouldn't have left it there. Roy designed Don's preamp, but he was content with it. He's a genius to be sure, and certainly quite knowledgeable. Don is as well, but his genius is perfecting things, and you have to be unbelievable knowledgeable to do so. They are similar, yet different.

Just want to say that both Don and Roy provide wonderful customer service with their helpfulness and insight.

I hope that you are able to get it working. One other thing to try would be contact cleaner. 

I tried the unplug suggestion in hopes something would reset.  Left it unplugged over night and no dice.  I sent an email to Roy if he has any suggestions while I wait for Don to reply to my remote and upgrade questions. 
 

Fingers crossed this could be resolved by getting a new remote and not send in to Don. 

Someone suggested unplugging, wait a few minutes and plug back in. Hoping that resets the Khozmo so the remote starts working again