I am new to this forum, and sort of new to the epiphany of good hifi. Not so much in concept as much as an actual system I could wrap both my head and finances around simultaneously. Though my system is not anywhere near "reference" quality, I do appreciate the advice of my somewhat local hifi shop.
My problem is purely semantics. Take whiskey or even mountain biking- the good stuff is purely in the palate. What is nirvana to one is not worth the glass it was poured in to another. Given that, when I went to actually buy my current system I read as much as I could on current terminology so I could have a commonality with what was in the market. Wine verbiage is trendy- "cat piss" or "grassy" were not used to describe grapes of yore, and as such, current hifi terminology is just that. I tried to use these descriptors to try and hone in on what my local shop was hawking to get towards what I [thought I] wanted. I was told not to focus on those things and just listen to the music, aka system, and judge the sound for what it is. Though I agree with this sentiment 100%, I was left feeling like I couldn't actually describe what I wanted and have that translate into a listening experience. It ended up being just a basic stroke of good luck and, as it turned out, some varied reading that led me to that perfect blend of sight, sound, and wait for it- reference.
I have heard precious few very expensive systems. It's hard to fake being able to afford those things, and some shops use this to avoid spending time to explain their qualities. Reference is a moving target at best, and if it costs over $10K, then I will not know it in my current circumstances because it is unreasonable for my lifestyle. That being said,it sure would be nice to have a glass to taste now and again... I think a responsible shop will leave you with an understanding of what the extra cash gets you, maybe even a little wanting. IF they don't share your ear or passion for your version of minutia, then that's okay. They should refer you onward on your quest. I can appreciate a new Alfa Romeo even if I can't afford it. Maybe my next job gets me closer. I sure would appreciate the respect of the salesman not to rule me out for my lack of knowledge OR income. Educate me!
So yes, I do agree that hearing these "reference" quality systems is a good thing for us all, but it is equally important to be able to explain them in terms other than sound. I was blown away when a salesman worked me through jitter, through the sound. It took multiple hook ups and some perseverance but he got me through that obstacle. After that, my level of reference changed. I can't go back now, and it has become something that has to be solved each time I upgrade.
So please, if you're in a position to help explain hifi to a novice, take your time and listen to the person asking about the sound so they can understand that sound, entirely. It's a never-ending quest, after all.
Well the challenge is getting a great sound at the best price you can find it at and that you are happy with. I’m going to be keeping my current set up a while and you have to be happy with it no matter who else likes it or doesn’t like it. I spent the last 11 years hearing all I can and the best I can so that I can put together my system and have good reference points. I think that it gets to a point for many of us where you can’t justify the costs of some gear. I thought I would never spend over 10k for a speaker but I have and I’m enjoying them daily but I have the right integrated and source to match and I enjoy the system as a whole. We all have different experiences and opinions but the key is to listen and enjoy.
Jafant that’s what I was actually more referring to. I had four sessions with the Raidho soultions combination. I had 2 or three sessions with the Raidho accuphase set up. I had sessions with voxative with high fidelity electronics. YG with gryphon. I had a 2 month session with veloce and Vienna acoustics. I had a 2 month session with esoteric and revel studio 2’s. I had a 2 week session with the nu vista 800 with revel studio 2. I had 2 month sessions it’s Kr Audio and Sonus faber. I recently had a session of gryphon and vivid speakers. These are longer term listening sessions that gave me really good reference points. When I’m on some of the threads I see a lot of guys that are just anti high end. Sometimes they have never heard the stuff or they don’t have the ability to have longer term listening session with the variety of high end gear. I remember when I first heard the transparency and the air created by the veloce ls1 preamplifier. I was like wow. It was different in a good way and gave me a whole new reference point. When I hear guys totally diss the high end I’m a lot less willing to listen to them. It’s not the cost of the gear. It’s just the fact that they diss it because it cost so much when sound of the gear should be evaluated first then cost second. Just my opinion.
Everyone's opinions here are shaped by their own experiences, ability to hear and listen, and personal preference. All opinions are valid but an opinion is simply the articulation of one person's perceptions. The problems arise when people try and interpret opinions as fact and then judge them on an absolute scale. Nothing is ever resolved because opinions are subjective and personal, and not universally applicable.
Regardless of what gear or speakers people have heard, and whether it is "the best in high end audio," which is a subjective statement in itself, I gain better context when reading the opinions of people who have their systems posted here. Seeing the choices folks have made when purchasing gear, the care they have taken in assembling their systems and rooms, and understanding the types of music they listen to, tells me more about how they form their opinions than knowing they have heard expensive gear.
I think matching is really important as well. If you put the wrong high priced gear together it can sound like crap. If you match the rogh5 equipment with the right cabling in the right enviorment wammo you can have a system that sounds better than gear that a lot higher priced.
"It’s even better when they tell you that although x costs only 10% of y, it actually sounds just as good, or even better!"
Every now and then, I read similar statements. I may be unlucky one, but have never heard a system that sounds same or better than one costing much more. It does not have to be ten times more expensive, it can be less than that, but it seems that, overall, more expensive does mean a bit better. There can be a lots of listener bias in that, but still. Of course, there may be some overlap on the edges of price categories and different people may have different experiences. Does anyone have any example of gear that is as good as something costing so much more?
Many reviews describe gear as "punches way above its price" and similar. What it means to me is really that better sound became cheaper. It is not that it is better than it should be, but that others are too expensive.
True. It depends on what you like. I actually like acoustic music. I enjoy a lot of it myself. I listen to a lot of jazz without voices. It depends on what you listen to as well. I like extended cymbals and open midrange. A lot of us want different types of sounds. I also believe that there is more than one great sound. There are many different really good sounds. I’m glad that my system keeps me happy after hearing the really good expensive stuff. Tells me I’m doing smthg right. Now I did spend a good amount but I think I did pretty good.
The old AR turntable sounded pretty good, along with the Adcom amps and old Dahlquist speakers. Then came the CJ amps and preamp, and the Pass Labs Phono stage and the Rega Rp6. Way better, but not where I wanted to be. So, out went the RP6 and in comes the RP10, and some EgglestonWorks Viginti's, and now I have a really great sounding system.
I think you can hear some really expensive stuff and it can sound great, or not so great, depending on the gear itself and the set up.
There's a point of diminishing returns, and i think I am close to it, or at least hope that I am. I can't imagine spending much more money to get anything sounding appreciably better.
Whenever I doubt how far my system has come, I connect the old AR (which was great for its day), and then say "wow, even with all the new gear, just using the old turntable makes a huge difference.
It helps to know what you are shooting for, and hearing some nicer gear makes it easier to define, and perhaps find. But then comes the synergy piece, which I think is a matter of art and science and personal preference.
Conversely, hearing what reviewers claim is "the best" which costs a million dollars, and knowing your are happier with your system that was quite affordable can certainly make you an insufferably smug bastard.
Live acoustic music is a mixed bag at best. I would say a well put together, tweaked and tuned audio system is more reliable as a point of reference. A suffiently large high power all tube Class A System with regulated everything and isolated everything would be where I would start. Then tweak your brains out. 🧠
One Big Hurdle to good sound is the ugly fact that it’s difficult to find a CD that’s not overly compressed or in Reverse Polarity or BOTH. Most things sound SO bland.
Also I would like to clarify something. When I say the best I mean what I actually mean those pieces that are supposed to be really great based on the reviewers and the industry guys that supposedly say they are. Now I know a lot of payola is going on in the high end but I like to hear the so called cream of the crop to see how much better it is than what I have assembled or if it’s even better at all. I try to hear as much as I can to try to compare things to other things. Not doing a/b comparisons but the overall listening experience. I have settled in with my system and I’m extremely happy with it even when I compare to the super high end stuff. However, equipment, cabling and enviorment matching has been pivotal in my set up.
I totally understand all the opinions. I allowed myself to hear a number of different systems in different enviorment. Personal preferences are really important. I also think system matching is really important. I’ve heard all out assault systems blow me away but that was because the guy who had it set it up properly and matched equipment well plus his system is of the kind I prefer. I also have heard all out assault systems sound bad because of matching and the persons personal preference I think it’s important to hear as much gear as you can to determine what you like and don’t like. I also think it can teach you that it’s not about how much you spend that will get you sound happiness.
Obviously, if you take high end to be mean high quality, and not merely price. If you’ve only ever been listening to 128kps MP3 files through low quality headphones your experience will be limited and can only be valid for yourself. It can hardly be relevant to anyone else if that’s all you have as a reference.
I love hearing from people who have years of experience in high end audio. It’s even better when they tell you that although x costs only 10% of y, it actually sounds just as good, or even better! It’s the worst form of heresy in some circles I know, but it’s great when it happens.
An honest owners opinion can also give you a better idea of what living with a pair of Wilson speakers, McIntosh amp, Grado woodies etc might be like. It’s a great leveller when owners sometimes post less than flattering reviews. How dare they!
However, one major problem with reviews I think, is often one of communication. Words are a notoriously slippery way of conveying sensations. And then there’s issues of hearing capability, individual bias, and last but certainly not least, vested financial interests. And even if they’re bring honest, not everyone will always know themself inside out that well. Sometimes not even after a lifetime alas.
We know HiFi shows set in hotels aren’t always the best place to hear great sound but it’s not impossible. I one heard some Avantgarde Trios near as damn it bringing back to life (via vinyl) some long, long dead jazz musicians. Almost spooky, like that cowboy scene in Poltergeist.
So it’s either the reviews or we go back to shows and the dealers, and back to listening for ourselves. It’s far from an easy life being an audiophile unless you’re the audiophiliac himself, Steve Gutenberg!
Unfortunately, the old audiophile axiom is mostly true, that our IDEAL of great sound, I.e., the sound we tend to strive for, is only as good as the best system we’ve ever heard. That right there explains a lot.
Hearing the beauty in a system is only there if you hear it and doesn't matter what anyone else's opinion is or what they have heard, if you like it you know it , kind of the definition of porn is, I know it when I see it. We all need to trust our ears, after all they are our ears and not someone elses and we all have different criteria we are aiming for. Just sayin.
I agree with E. "I think listening to a variety of things and understanding what brings you pleasure is important." There is no such animal as the best in Audio, only preferences!
"Does hearing the best in high end audio make your opinions more valid"?
Opinions to the extent you can or should influence the opinions of others: My sense is, no. I have listened to numerous high-end systems in a group setting and recognize that perspective/opinions varied.
To the extent that you form a personal opinion of what is possible and what you personally find exhilarating, definitely.
So, it seems to me, the benefit is very personal, but; doesn't make you an expert. A similar correlation exists with Art collectors. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.
Depends. I used to go to hifi shows and listen to big expensive esoteric systems I wouldn’t be caught owning in a million years, even if I had a million to spend on such a thing. Curly-spiral-shaped speakers that looked like they come off the set of The Fifth Element, pressure cylindrical sound pumps (MBL $70,000 with frequency and step responses that are crap), horns, water cooled tube amps (where were the goldfish?), Nordost cable spray a/b demos (after an exhaustive half hour lecture on why this works, all eager ears, no one was impressed!), reps snorting coke in the bathrooms, all the above complete and uttter nonsense/bs to me at high $$$$$ and not one that sounded good. So, I listened, and I listened, and when I got home I felt so fortunate that, over time, and few mistakes, I had built, refined and set up properly a good sounding rig that well played the music I like and that I could chill to and hang with my audio buds every now and then.
And +1 glupson and onhwy61: best is an oxymoron in the land of music reproduction equipment.
It does if you have a good perspective it helps you understand different sounding high end set ups.You can compare them and get a sound perspective if you know what to listen for.Enjoy!!
The more and varied the systems you have exposure to will help a you figure out what your preferences are. Which, if well articulated, could help someone else to some small effect.
"The best" is a concept that I don't think we will ever reach agreement upon.
Not necessarily. If it did matter, anyone could win any argument simply by claiming he’s heard the best of high end equipment. At its core it’s really a logical fallacy. Case in point, go to a big audio show sometime and you can observe just how difficult it is to get great sound out of the best of high end equipment, including speakers and cables.
I just think you have have to hear more gear to have better reference points. I’ve heard those super high end systems and I think they provide a good foundation for what’s possible. It wasn’t just the cost of the gear it was also set up properly. But to each his own. If I’m going to take advice from anyone I would rather them have heard really good high end gear that was set up properly.
Being exposed to an alleged quality requires acceptance of someone else’s opinion of the very existence of that quality. Validation of that opinion requires acknowledgement of a reference state. So I’ve got issues with this proposition.
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