If you're listening to the sound of the equipment then it's totally failing to do it's job regardless of price.
I've certainly had my fair of hearing expensive systems sounding bland and 'monochromatic' before. Then there were the Quad electrostatics which sounded weird on Pop, the Naim Ovators (early s6000s I think) which were only 'good'. We were expecting 'great' at that price from Naim Audio.
We're often advised to go and listen to live music to help establish a frame of reference but unfortunately a lot of venues seem to have bad (phasey?) acoustics. Perhaps I've been unlucky but I did manage to catch a beautiful piano recital in an old rickety theatre some while back. I was surprised at how loud a piano can get in a small venue, you really have to hear it for yourself.
On the other hand I can't help but notice that PA equipment seems to have come on leaps and bounds. The sonics at the last Richard Hawley concert were more than acceptable. I didn't once start wishing that it sounded like my system back home. In fact it would have blown my system right out of the water on sheer power alone. It wasn't just power though, there was plenty of texture and timbre thrown in too.
There's a few shows coming up here in the next few months. Having not been to one for about a decade, (Manchester 2007/8?) with a but of luck I will be able get to one of them. Just got to remember to not get my expectations up too high.
"If you’re listening to the sound of the equipment then it’s totally failing to do it’s job regardless of price."
I cannot agree more, but some might disagree. I think if you are really focusing on getting the right sound, you have a hobby. Nothing wrong with that. On the other hand, many people enjoy the music, it truly moves them, regardless of the system it is playing on. There is nothing wrong with having even "better" equipment, but it will not make you enjoy the music more. At least it does not do it for me. You may find different things in the recording and babble about it whole day long and that is fair and true, but who has not enjoyed music on some boombox at age of fifteen?
I started growing up listening to records on Dual 1225 turntable. By any means, not anything to brag about these days. No fancy power cord, no unidirectional interconnects, nothing of that sort. Well, the thing was magic.
True if you are listening to the equipment. It isn’t high end. The music coming out of it should have all of your attention. As far as the high end shops being snooty and not showing gear I go through the same thing here in Dallas. Audio concepts ones this thing where they take your name down. Come in more than twice without buying and the music is cut off. They don’t show you anything or pay attention to you. I went in there for a 4th time before I bought my Gato speakers and they way they acted turned me off and I politely took my big speaker purchase to Audio Emotion in Scotland. The guy there Gary gave me advice for years and I hadn’t bought anything. He deserved my business so I bought from him. He told us about Gato and how it competed with speakers 2 or 3 times the price. We trusted him and we are glad we did. I think it’s also important to a great sales guy to work with who first enjoys the hobby then the sales some naturally. As far as reference points I,think it’s very important to hear the high end gear if only for a reference point. I think you learn more that way. The more you hear the better. The better you hear the better.
glupson I started growing up listening to records on Dual 1225 turntable. By any means, not anything to brag about these days. No fancy power cord, no unidirectional interconnects, nothing of that sort. Well, the thing was magic.
>>>No unidirectional interconnects? Are you trying to reinvent audio terminology? 😛 But you’re right, nothing to brag about these days. Or any days, for that matter. No offense intended. [Note to self: There seems to be a very large gap between the high end and those who got stuck back in the 80s and other assorted backsliders and mossbacks.]
AAhhh Geoff, up early and at it this morning? It seems today promises to be another installment of the stratification of the true audiophiles, the Rolls set if you will, versus the rest of us, the Chevy set. That whole discussion seems kind of 80's in and of itself.
The sound you LIKE is almost certainly not the same thing as the sound you WANT. That’s because our IDEAL of what great sound should be, the one in our head, keeps changing. Nobody, well, besides Jitter and Glupson, strives to recapture the magic of their youth in the 80s or whenever. There is no glass ceiling.
Given that all the music we hear through the electronic systems is essentially fake and heavily processed, it makes it easier to admit the sound you want is the sound you like.
In case anyone is interested in getting the sound an actual musician listened to at home, Dual 1225 would be a good starting point. They often came with Shure cartridges, M 75 I think but may be wrong.
I agree, it is way too subjective but, given all possible options, I would have to go with the one who seems not to care about anything but the feel. At least she/he would spare me of discussions about bare wires plugged into the outlet, magnetic shields for wooden objects, poetry about electrical appliances, and a batallion of tweaks lurking behind a corner.
Some times I wish I hadn't heard a great sounding system because it makes me a bit too critical listening to other systems, in particular my own. I will also say if you do enough research there are people making amazing components, speakers, wires, tweaks, etc at reasonable prices (even cheaper buying used) and a bit of DIY you can create a wonderful system easily besting systems at 10 times the price you would of heard at a show.
1. Those who don't know or care about differences. 2. Those who are delight in buying $300 bottles of wine 3. Those who know what a $300 bottle of wine tastes like and buys a $30 that is just as good and delights in saving the $270.
Not that this has anything at all to do with audio. :)
douglas_schroeder Waste of time to debate it with someone of dubious experience.
I disagree. There are many ways to handle that sort of thing. For starters, you can always speak to “everyone else out there” and ignore the person who’s debating you. Works for me. 😬
Personally, I purchase Boone’s Farm wine and the secret is to wrap an Omega E Mat around it. I find that the longer you leave the E Mat in the freezer, undisturbed, prior to the wrap the better. An added bonus is I find my refrigerator runs on less electricity while the E Mat is in the freezer. So much so that I am thinking of purchasing a second mat as I want the multiplier effect others have reported.
And before any of you nervous nellies and naysayers chime in, unless you have put it in your freezer and around your Boone's Farm your opinion is not valid.
Elizabeth I agree. When properly matched there won’t be a 10 times improvement. To get great drivers, design, build quality and R&D it’s going to take spending a decent amount to get the really good stuff. Some people just have not heard the cream of the crop in equipment. The reference point they have is sometimes nowhere near what some have heard. For example I heard the Raidho 5.1 with all soulution electronics and ansuz cabling. It was in a home listening cottage measured perfectly and the Raidho people came over to the states to do the set up in person. Best I ever heard in my life. Sounded so good I don’t want to hear it again. They had to put me out I wanted to stay so long. Intoxicating, airy, great detail, no harshness, perfect soundstage big, great image placement, airy highs, open wide midrange, deep tight low bass. Granted this was an all out assault system worth about 600k retail. But it is the best I heard and I heard it in extended sesssions on 3 occasions. That kind of reference point is priceless in the hobby. Showed me what reproduction was possible of. The sound is in my head so when I listen it’s locked in. Now can you get that out of a 60k system I doubt It. I have a system 35k retail and I have heard systems all over. Mines is put together pretty good and I have heard systems that cost 60 to 70k that mines will run with but after that if you get the right equipment and set up my system can’t run past that amount. The proper high end stuff is just that good and some folks have no idea
Measured performance versus cost levels off alarmingly early with cables, amps, digital sources. Especially if you were under the impression that you were paying extra for gains in measurable performance. Once you’ve seen one CAD CDP or SS amplifier frequency/distortion chart, you’ve seen them all.
Even turntable analysis is heading that way as the recent Technics decks gave demonstrated. PC hardware is rapidly going that way with the adoption of SSD drives, similar with phones as the iPhone X fiasco demonstrated (unless you specifically wanted a handheld games console with a sub 6 inch screen).
It can be like a mountain climb trying to upgrade your hi-fi. By the time you near the summit the effects of altitude sickness and snow blindness seek to destroy whatever rationality you had left.
You could then easily find yourself heavily out of pocket lost and disoriented in a place of little consensus. Your erstwhile friendly sherper / dealer nowhere to be seen.
Audiophiles and Wine Tasters of the world unite. We have much in common with our Sommelier brothers. For some strange reason, not many of our sisters seem to share our passion.
To be clear, take retail price of a very expensive components and put them together with out much thought vs. buying equipment that is great value, get it used and then spend time researching and experimenting to make sure the components have synergy together and then do some upgrades like replacing capacitors. This takes time, years. What do you think the price difference would be. My main point is there is a large variance across systems in terms of performance vs price.
eric_squires sez' " So we can infer " No, you cannot make those leaps. Sorry to bust you poor logic, but trying to put those words into my discussion? Not gonna happen.
Well, that was your opportunity to explain why the inference doesn't work.
calvinj Best I ever heard in my life. Sounded so good I don’t want to hear it again. They had to put me out I wanted to stay so long. Intoxicating, airy, great detail, no harshness, perfect soundstage big, great image placement, airy highs, open wide midrange, deep tight low bass. Granted this was an all out assault system worth about 600k retail. But it is the best I heard and I heard it in extended sesssions on 3 occasions. That kind of reference point is priceless in the hobby. Showed me what reproduction was possible of. The sound is in my head so when I listen it’s locked in. Now can you get that out of a 60k system I doubt It. I have a system 35k retail and I have heard systems all over. Mines is put together pretty good and I have heard systems that cost 60 to 70k that mines will run with but after that if you get the right equipment and set up my system can’t run past that amount. The proper high end stuff is just that good and some folks have no idea.
>>>>That’ll do til something better comes along. 🤭
I don't believe that hearing the best high end audio equipment makes one's opinion more valid. it is good for comparison of systems and the ability to reproduce recorded music.
I will say that for people that actually listen to music as opposed to background music (nothing wrong with that), it is important to know what instruments actually sound like to know what is real and what is a characteristic of bad recordings or bad equipment or both.
Then, when you hear reproduced music, especially recorded music that is suppose to have background dimensionality, space, depth, proper sounding instruments, etc. and you don't hear that, or the sound drives you out of the room, you know.
I like to go to my favorite store and sit and listen in their stupidly expensive room to my favorite music or theirs. Just to get an idea of what the recorded music is suppose to sound like, or a good impression.
Then, when I hear the music on other systems, and don't hear certain things, I know why.
However, I can tell you that many times it is the room also. This is why so many people get so frustrated or angry when they spend quality time listening to store equipment, buy something, take it home and it sounds completely different in their home with their equipment.
I know that there is equipment that is seriously overpriced. However, quality high end equipment is simply that, and, there is a reason why there exist low fi, mid fi and high end (low high end, mid high end, and top high end) equipment.
Same with cars. A Nissan Versa will get you to the same place as a Mercedes S560. However, the S560 is a better designed and built car. Same with audio equipment. There are levels.
Your opinion may not be more valid listening to ultra high end equipment, especially if you are happy with where you are with your system. You might just be "there". doesn't mean the ultra high end equipment isn't better that your stuff. It probably is. But, if in your system, compared to the ultra high end stuff, you are "there" and your system reproduces the music accurately, then okay.
You can always get better.
In track and field we say that there is always someone faster, stronger, can jump higher or faster. It is just on a particular day in a particular track meet that you may win. But don't get the "big head". There is always someone out there that is better.
Same with audio equipment. There is always something better. But, is it worth it to you to spend ungodly amounts to "upgrade" to that level?
I've listened to some amazing systems. I feel that I'm "there" with my system. Can I get better? absolutely.
When one gets to a certain level with "high end" equipment, in my opinion and based on my experience, there really isn't jaw dropping differences.
But to have a valid "opinion" you better know what music and instruments actually are suppose to sound like first.
eric... Discussing nonsense is not of any interest to me. Some folks love to posit drivel and then expect some counterargument. Not gonna happen. If you think what you wrote had merit, not my problem.z
That's funny, because you made a claim about an invalid inference, I gave you a chance to correct it and now you seem offended. Do as you will.
Well I think you missed the point of my whole post. He had great equipment. He matched it perfectly with cables and component matching. He had an almost perfectly measured listening enviorment. He had the makers come in and set it up. The recording quality of the music he was playing was excellent. He had the whole cottage built for the purpose of listening to the best equipment he could get his hands on and because of his all out assault Audio nirvana happened. Lol. Until you’ve heard it don’t comment. Honestly, I don’t think I will ever hear something that good again. He went to great lengths to set the whole thing up!
The person who did this was a former dealer who knew he was dying of Lou Gehrig’s disease. He made it his mission to put the best system and enviorment he could together. Price be damned. He had spent 20 years in the business and the hobby. He knew what he was doing and he took me to the mythical Audio nirvana. RIP DAVE BASKIN!
What model is your refrigerator? And what vintage is wine? To make sure nobody complains about variables.
minorl,
Have you listened to 2017 and 2018 S560? I found Burmester in Coupe underwhelming. I mean, it is ok, but just ok. Given the pedigree, I expected to be impressed and I was not. It may have something to do with "the room" or anticipated clientele taste. Burmester in Cayenne is more lively, but way less neutral, at least to my ears. Of course, they are probably not the same electronics, but what happened to the "house sound"?
On the other hand, they are as good as Versa for listening to the news. Provided that Versa does have a radio.
What a difficult pastime this is to get any sense out of?
First of all no two people interpret the movement of air in the same fashion. What sounds like cacophonous noise to some can be interpreted as sweet music to others.
Then there's the problem of hearing loss and missing - or merely reduced in volume - frequencies (ie damaged hearing). I seem to be able hear 16kHz better than 14kHz and then very little above.
As if that wasn't bad enough then there's the question of mood and levels of fatigue, health etc. Not much sounds good with toothache etc and neither will love songs if you're going through breakup.
To finally cap it off regarding the human condition, we all change. A friend of mine has a great system topped off with a classic pair of KEF floorstanding speakers yet listens to it with the bass reduced and the treble turned up. It would be funny except I can remember being the same when I was in my teens! Just couldn't get enough sweet treble in those days. The rest of the frequency hardly mattered then, I wanted music with energy and speed, I had enough of my own to burn in those days.
Then we come to the differences in listening rooms. Shape, floor, walls, location, seating position etc We haven't even got to the music or equipment yet!
Audio equipment can attempt to follow the rules of conforming to a flat frequency response, but often it doesn't as the trend of boosting the bass in headphones proved. The trick of boosting the treble can also be attention grabbing in the short term, or a pain in the backside in the long.
Finally we come to the recordings themselves. We could ask whether anyone ever tries to record accurate sound in the studio. Ever since the 1950's the trickery in manipulating sound has developed in leaps and bounds to such an extent that recording anything 'straight' is usually limited to documentaries or simple location recordings, sometimes in a church!
Basically, most recordings, all if we're talking Pop, are works of fiction which stretch if not actually break our credulity. They exist to cater to our fantasies. OK maybe someone else's fantasies. Perhaps the producer's, the artist's but usually the record company's idea of what the paying public wants.
So is any attempt to make sense of audio doomed to be just a question of interpretation, a mere art form at best? Can we ever reach anything more than a loose vague consensus given the difficulty of communicating our sensations and thoughts with any degree of precision?
I doubt it. I think it is all a question of interpretation whilst seeking a something we can be happy with. The only people who seem to care for consistency seem to be the broadcasting professionals as the famous example of the BBC funding expensive painstaking research into loudspeakers proved (one result was the legendary LS3/5).
For us audiophiles it can only be a good thing to listen to music through as many different systems as we can, even if our opinions can only be of limited relevance to anyone else.
At least until telepathic machines are sufficiently developed!
calvinj OP Well I think you missed the point of my whole post. He had great equipment. He matched it perfectly with cables and component matching. He had an almost perfectly measured listening enviorment. He had the makers come in and set it up. The recording quality of the music he was playing was excellent. He had the whole cottage built for the purpose of listening to the best equipment he could get his hands on and because of his all out assault Audio nirvana happened. Lol. Until you’ve heard it don’t comment. Honestly, I don’t think I will ever hear something that good again. He went to great lengths to set the whole thing up!
>>>>>I think YOU missed the whole point of MY post. If good intentions and hard work and money were all there was to it all the well heeled pros at CES would have great sounding systems. Obviously that is not the case. A rich audiophile has as much chance of entering Audio Nirvana as a 🐪 has of passing through the 👁 of a needle. Whatever you heard it could have been better.
Actually, the LS3/5a is not the really the best example to try to make your case with as it was notoriously inefficient, had no dynamics and no bass whatsoever. It could not play rock or orchestral music due to its limitations. Voices sounded great. It will give it that.
Your post could be in the Textbook of Audiophilia. Chapter "Give me a break". On the other hand, or maybe ear, if everybody agreed with it what other useless thing would we fight about?
Your lower hearing around 14 000 Hz and apparent normal above it is actually quite common and, if I remember it correctly through this fog of years, frequently observed on neural curves. Even if my life now depended on it, I could not remember the name for that. It does have something to do with the perception and some overlapping regions, but I am not brave enough to try to make it up now. It was a long time ago. Even without explanation, I hope it helps a tiny little bit.
Hearing ability changes over time and not everyone hears music the same. If you take on of those detailed hearing examinations in an enclosed soundproof room you will see that your hearing has gaps.
it is scary. This is a good reason why equalizers are needed. not only for room correction, but more importantly, for personal hearing.
The problem comes when the equalizer is installed and set up for your hearing preferences or gaps and someone else comes over and listens and to them it doesn't sound quite right.
I'm pretty sure that I don't hear the highs quite as well as I once did. My Krell KBX crossover has adjustments for that. But, not quite as good as a decent equalizer.
I remember ages ago when I was interested in a pair of Martin Logan Sequel II speakers, I set up an appointment at Christopher Hansen in LA . Naturally they had to set up the system so I and my friend waited in another room. Well, that room had top of the line Goldmund Apologue (I believe) speakers, Mark Levinson 23.5 amps, Goldmund top turntable, etc. I brought my own music and just had to hear this system. Well the salesperson told me that it would ruin my ear for the speakers I wanted to demo. I didn't care,
This was the first time I heard the artist step out of the speakers. I closed my eyes and could see where artist was on the stage, the piano, the bass player, etc. It was amazing.
it didn't ruin my ear at all. In fact it actually helped me obtain a reference point for what reproduced music should sound like. That was my first venture from mid fi to real high end and I've not looked back.
Glubson: I saw the Mercedes S560 at the LA auto show. What a car!!! Definitely not a Versa.
Geoffkait I kind of notice that you always bash the systems of the guys with well means. Quit hating. I wouldn’t spend the money that guy spent on his system but the music bought him peace and joy knowing that death was coming fast. He was an experienced high end dealer who had the means and experience to put a great system together and he did it. He put the right things together in the right enviorment with equipment based on his experience that worked well together. Look if you can put a cheap system together that makes you happy then enjoy it. But don’t always crap on people that can afford more or spend more or want to spend more by always calling them fools. If they can put a system together at costs they can afford that allows them to enjoy the music more then great for them. I’ve tried a lot of stuff and heard a lot of stuff. The more stuff the better the opinion to me. There are just some systems in the high end that if put together right can reset your ears! If you haven’t listened then watch how you comment. Cost doesnt always equal better performance. But if you put a cheap system properly matched and an expensive system properly matched the more expensive one will sound better but how much you are willing to spend will determine if it’s worth it to you!
calvinj, I think you have completely missed my point. I am not attacking anyone for having expensive systems. But simply having an expensive system or any system is not sufficient reason to draw conclusions regarding sound quality, which cables are the absolute best, how much people need to spend on their systems, what constitutes audio Nirvana or any of the other usual audiophile arguments. Or to claim that the opinion of folks with inexpensive systems don’t count.
I will not play your I’ll show you mine if you show me yours game for those reasons. It doesn’t prove anything. You can derive almost no information regarding sound quality from pictures of systems or lists of system components. There are myriad very expensive systems that sound horrible or at least very generic. A rich man has as much chance of obtaining audio Nirvana as a camel has of passing through the eye of a needle.
(1) Without prejudice to anything below, the expression “best in audio” is usually interpreted singularly and thus uniquely (differently) by the beholder. Regardless of hobbyist or audio mag reviewer/reporter, it churns out a broad range compendium of a buzzilion conflicting anecdotal and heavily biased personal faves .
(2) Accordingly, there is no reference point for “best” in audio, and to search for that elusive term is a futile search for the Holy Grail, starting with the constant tension introduced by conflicting context: (a) the “best” that the beholder has actually personally auditioned (a very limiting and distilled sample); versus (b) the “best” in a particular price point strata
“Best” is a matter of opinion. I have listened to several 6 figure systems that IMO don’t come close to equaling the satisfaction I get with my set up. By non-audio enthusiast standards I have spent a fortune, but by “our” standards, its in the basic side. speakers retail for $15k, pre amp 4k, power amps 8k when they were new 11 years ago, cd/sacd player about 2k when new 14 years ago, TT is around 3k , etc. My goal is to hear everything that is on the recording with the least amount of coloration, taking account that the room is a big ( if not the biggest) culprit of coloration. On “greatest hits” albums, i can hear the different mics and production techniques of each song. I love to hear the difference as I enjoy the art. I’m so satisfied with my system, I hope you find your version of “best” ASAP.
Of course auditioning great high end systems is part of the research, but your enjoyment of the music should be the final arbiter. Spend your time and money going to listen to live music in the best acoustical venues you can find. FOr me I judge everything against the Auditorium Theatre in Chicago, Sullivan and Adlers acoustical masterpiece. Then take the money you have allocated to your system and get as close to replicating that sound in your listening room, as you can. Sometimes I think those of us in this hobby loose sight of why we have great stereos, it's the music not the $$ spent on the system. It's what sounds great to you not to someone else. Take your entire environment into consideration, including room acoustics, your significant others taste, system synergy etc. Most good manufacturers and shops will let you audition in your home, that is where you will know what the system will sound like. Sure it will take time to get where you want but isn't the journey worth it.
My opinion has mostly been stated above but for what it's worth: In general hearing more systems provides more data points to assess what you like / dislike and want / don't want based on your listening preferences. Hearing higher end systems exposes you to data points often with higher audio quality which should open your scope of possibility to what you want and what to potentially achieve. In my experiences with high end systems (>500K) I often walked away with particular areas that I aspired to achieve (ultimate clarity, dynamics, etc.) but very few systems checked all the boxes in terms of an ultimate system. My experience tells me this is more about room treatment / placement or lack thereof.
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