Do speakers take time to warm up?

@douglas_schroeder --

Now, anyone who disagrees, how about you show me/us the measurements that demonstrate the purported audible change that occurs when speakers "warm up"? Surely this has been proven time and again, right? We should have hundreds of sets of such measurements, right? This should be well documented, right? I suspect not, because it would have been very easy for you to provide such contrasting measurements were they available.

"Were they available" being the prerogative phrase here. Your claim rests on the premise believing sonic variations during warm-up (less than, and somewhat distinctive from break-in) should be measurable in the first place, something at least I largely disagree with. From my chair you’re hiding behind this unwavering position seeing it rarely if ever being met, but not necessarily for the reason you’d think; what is or is not proven or quantifiable as facts are both a condition of perceiving sound, and in this case hard evidence where called for is likely absent simply because what needs to be measured isn’t identified.

Maybe I am wrong. Maybe there are lots of sets of measurements out there proving that speakers change sound significantly during break in and warm up. Show them to me.

Ibid.

Pure baloney. Now if you substitute the word “subconscious” for “mental state“ gentle readers, I’m on board that train. 🚂 That’s what controls your sensory perception of sound. But you’re just not aware of it. Why? Because it’s subconscious! Hel-loo! 🤗 Please, no angry PMs. 

@douglas_schroeder , I agree that mental state plays a huge role.  Your mood, your sleep, your physical activities that day, all play a big role in sound.  I iusg have never thought about the listner adjusting to speakers; interesting theory.  You change speakers as much as I do only yours are much more expensive.  I value your opinion because you have quite a bit of experience regarding this... 

b_limo, the experience that is "totally different" IS totally different, because it's not simply listening to the same speaker again, or longer. It's an entirely different set of drivers, cabinet, etc. It WILL sound fundamentally different, and it takes time to get used to it as opposed to sitting down in front of the familiar speakers. It's quite simple. Is that speaker going to change it's performance over the first few minutes, hours, etc. you are hearing it? Obviously I disagree with some others here on that point. 

I’ve always noticed that my system and prior systems take 30 minutes or so to really start sounding good and thats why I’ll start playing music on my system and go do other things for 30 minutes before listening.

What happened with the kefs was totally different though.  I’ve never heard such a big change.

Maybe sometime in the next few days I’ll put the kefs back into rotation, take a video of them, let them play for an hour and then take another video with them playing the same song, at the same level and see if I can head a difference.

My take is: there’s an awful lot of experienced listeners out there with really good hearing who regularly experience this phenomenon day in day out, and accept it as a fact of life.

What are its primary causes? I know you have your answers, but I would like to hear some others’ opinions.

https://www.audiophilenirvana.com/audiophile-tips/audiophile-warm-up-break-in/

And guess what! There was excellent scientific evidence presented for precisely the opposite case on the exact same page. And maybe I did notice just a teensy weensy bit of an agenda running through the forum, just perhaps of course........it was probably just me..........

And Douglas, please stick your slide rule (sorry Millennials) back in your pocket. We really don’t need another one of THOSE dead end threads.

It is possible that I put up more audio systems and conduct careful listening to them in one year in my home than you may have built in your lifetime. So, your mockery means little to me. If you are not going to discuss this in a mature way, I’m done talking with you.

ie I am right and know more because I have far more experience than you. Sorry, not a very convincing argument. You know absolutely nothing about me that makes you qualified to make such an arrogant and sweeping statement.

If you really think that a voice coil resistance change in excess of 10% can have no audible effect I suggest you go back to EE101.

If I am not happy with the sound, I can get superior results in three minutes with a change of an interconnect or power cord

This is just an imaginary change. It cant be measured.

tatyana69 and pesky_wabbit, I will set you straight, so that you do not continue to misrepresent my argument. I am not saying that there is no audible change to systems as they are being used. I am saying it is not due to the equipment. The presumption that is commonplace in the community is that as the gear changes, the sound changes, i.e. "warm up", and "settling" as mechanical, electrical, etc. changes that are audible. 

I am saying that the changes that seem to occur, which I have said previously I hear on a regular basis ( and which you have ignored) are not due to the equipment changing, but due to perception of the listener. So, please stop mischaracterizing my argument as though I am saying there is no change in perception. Thank you! 

Further, you lose credibility when you resort to insults. You did not have a strong argument, which I pointed out, so you return my inquiry with mockery. In other words, you admit you have no substantive support for your position other than your perceptions. You tacitly admit you think your ears are more consistent than electronics. I say you're horribly arrogant to hold that opinion, as if your perception of the sound quality is not subject to mood, pain, tiredness, alcohol consumption, etc. I suspect the measured performance of a system will not change over the 20 minutes to hour that you are looking for it to warm up, yet you declare that the ears can hear it. You have zero basis for your claim other than your opinion. 

I presented my comparisons for evidence. Did you bother to read my article wherein I compared two identical systems in different states?  I used to think the equipment changed sound due to warm up, burn in, etc. Eventually, I decided to put my perceptions to the test, and I actually did comparisons. What have you done besides asserting that you hear differences due to the equipment changing? Have you ever compared identical sets of gear in different states to draw conclusions? If not, what makes you think you have any basis for arguing against my observations from actual comparisons? I say you have none. 

I have never said that the sound of an audio system cannot seem to change over time. You dismiss my argument that the listener's perception changes over time - without providing evidence that I am incorrect. That is a convenient way to mock me, to ignore that I state changes happen, but that they are from perception rather than the equipment changing in performance. You only hurt yourself with such transparently biased discussion. 

You seem to know little about me and my reviewing, or else you wouldn't make such an ignorant comment about, "... actually listened to different speakers or cables, or indeed anything." One glance at my reviewer's bio will quickly reveal that I have listened quite intently to a wide range of equipment, and put together hundreds of audio systems over the years. I switch between different genres of speakers regularly, about twice a month. As a result, I hear the phenomenon that some call "warming up" of speakers on a continual basis, but I attribute it to myself adapting to the sound of a different system. Prove that I'm wrong, rather than attempt to insult me. I don't think you can.

Finally, I reinforce that spending time on "burn in", "warm up" and "settling" is marginal audio. It's a waste of time. If I am not happy with the sound, I can get superior results in three minutes with a change of an interconnect or power cord. I don't need to sit and hope for improvement - I make it happen. I suggest audiophiles do not waste their life waiting for things, but if not happy, make changes. My systems sound fanatic from the first moment to the moment they are turned off. In many listening sessions, does the music seem even more engaging after 1.5 hours? Yes, but who can prove it is due to the gear changing sound? You certainly cannot. 

It is possible that I put up more audio systems and conduct careful listening to them in one year in my home than you may have built in your lifetime. So, your mockery means little to me. If you are not going to discuss this in a mature way, I'm done talking with you.

douglas_schroeder2,357 posts05-31-2020 1:17pmPlease demonstrate for me the following:


Good grief - as peskywabbit has written - it is not up to us to prove to an idiot what is obvious if you had any ears, and you actually listened to different speakers or cables, or indeed anything. We contribute actual experiences to this forum, whereas you contaminate it with drivel.

Please demonstrate for me the following
*That some speakers take longer to "warm up" while others do not, and that it is audible.

People hear it and adjust to it every day, as has been demonstrated by the numerous responses to this post. If YOU can’t hear it so be it. Just accept you can’t and leave it at that: people’s hearing acuity differs.

I’m not impressed with your attempt at putting them in their place.

tatyana69,

Please demonstrate for me the following:

*That electrical resistance altered by temperature of a speaker driver or crossover makes an audible difference.

*That a capacitor takes longer than a few microseconds, or at most a second, to charge, and that it is audible. i.e. that the character/operation of the cap changes audibly over time, i.e. 10 to 20 minutes or more.

*That some speakers take longer to "warm up" while others do not, and that it is audible. 

I already demonstrated in my Audiophile Law: Thou Shalt Not Overemphasize Burn In that electronics and cables that are "broken in" and warmed up have no bearing on the sound in comparison to ones that are new and started up from a "cold" start. What are you doing to demonstrate your assertions? How about you get two identical speakers and run one for a few days, and use a switcher to switch between one system that is new and just started up, and one that is "broken in" and warmed up? I suspect you won't, because it takes time and money. If you are only going to talk, without putting any effort into your declarations, I'm not impressed with your attempt at putting me in my place. 

I suspect that you cannot support any of the challenges I have given to you. I am content to hold my opinion until such time as you or anyone else can demonstrate the requirements I have made above.   

douglas_schroeder2,355 posts05-28-2020 1:17pmImo, the crossover charging idea is nonsense. They are not being charged when the system is OFF! It's more ridiculous thinking from people who fancy their ears more consistent than the electronics. Same with the foolishness of cables "settling ".


One word can be used to describe this post.
Ignorant

His engrained and obsolete opinion.

 All of a sudden, because its Hi-Fi, the laws of physics no longer apply?

 Electrical resistance is no longer altered by temperature?

 Capacitors longer require charging up and do not discharge themselves?

 Some speakers do not require much warming up, others do.

 The xover in (for example) the Avalon could almost be called a passive amplifier in the way it works.

Vandersteen/ Low DBS patent covers battery bias ( forming of dialectic ) of Crossovers and cables. Regulations limit battery to 72 v but the Vandersteen amps provide 128.

i believe some Brinkmann electronics utilize this also....

My system is well broken-in.  Before playing music I always turn on the system for about 20 minutes to warm up the tubes.  Even so, the tube phono stage and tube preamp need to have musical signal passing through them for about 2 sides of an LP before they sound their best.  I will assume the speaker drivers warming up plays a role in this as well.  No matter what, the musical listening pleasure always increases around the third side of playing LPs.  And on Saturday night, after a couple glasses of wine and a couple of hits, it definitely sounds much, much better.
Enjoy the music!

Speaker coil resistance can easily change by 10% or more after warm up.  It will affect crossover design and I'm very surprised,  that people ignore it, discussing "crossover charging" instead.  Also, to people who cannot hear the difference - you don't have to.  Your hearing apparatus doesn't have to be the best.

I believe they do, my system, when first turned on is definitely bass shy. It takes a couple of songs to get everything up to speed. I have been experimenting with turning the amp, source and pre on and letting them warm up,but the results are the same. I'm thinking it's the speakers. I also have noticed this with other components and speakers.

I experience the same, non scientific, thing. Speakers sound a bit better after a couple of songs are played. Even when the system has been on a while. 
The same with guitars. If a guitar hasn’t been played for a while, it takes a bit to open back up. 
Museums have musicians in to play the Stradivari violins. 
Instruments need to be played. 

I understand your question in two parts:
a) do others hear the same and
b) if yes, why?
a) I hear the same, starting with and a long time with Maggies. The "simpler" ones had film caps, so no "real" cap forming was involved, and the degree of this speaker break-in is more and different from what I ever heard in caps & electronics. The Maggies sounded thin before "moving", my actual ribbon hybrids (dynamic bass to 400Hz) sound somewhat murky or "cloudy" when off for a certain time.
Leaving the system off for eg. 10 days necessitates several hours of gymnastics, the more the better.
b) as to why: I suspect the murkiness of dynamic drivers ( :-) improve a lot with gymnastics - but think about the damping, the mechanical hysteresis of the spider and surround, and even the membranes...
Interestingly Maggies, that have almost no damping, providing sort of a "clean spring" within the thin mylar foil, improve. Here it's probably a slight relaxation of that spring, probably affecting all planar speakers - ... including the newer plastic foil based Heil AMT drivers...?
Additionnaly to this there is probably a certain kind of static build up of magnetic remanence within generators, pole pieces,  traces of magnetic metals in contacts (nickel) and contact supports. This is probably kind of ho-hum demagnetized by music signals.
And moving a speaker (or other audio gear) from one place to another kind of takes time and energy to adjust.
In short: I hear the same and just don't listen too focused for several hours of reconnecting a system (instead: keep on playing music in a gapless mode... :-)

same observation as pesky_wabbit has made.
half an hour makes all the difference.
this is with Nautilus 802 first gen, of course well broken in after 20 years.
and after only a day pausing.

The original poster makes an observation about the phenomenon of speaker warmup, and your advice is to forget all this nonsense and buy a better system?

Why not just play music and accept that for the first half an hour or so it isn’t going to sound the best? A much more cost effective solution I think. What all this has to do with tube life is beyond me.

b_limo, my understanding is that the speaker drivers have an initial "break in" but is very short duration at the factory, and perhaps somewhat more over the initial period of use, more on the order of first few dozen hours, not continually as if reverting back to an initial state.

My guess is that any "loosening up" would be in the first second or two upon using them. How is a person supposed to determine from listening that any kind of loosening up has happened when human hearing is not as consistent as electronics? Forget about it, as it's a waste of your time. Put your time/money into getting better gear.

I move speakers in and out continually, and I pay no attention to such things. To do so would be a waste of time for me and lead to far less productive system building.

I don't know that your caps are charged even if you leave the amp on. No signal to the speakers.

Work on the major things that make improvements, not the cheap, low grade things. Do not settle for insipid, low productivity changes.

How about tube degradation? Why not worry that leaving your tube amp on is slowly degrading your sound via shortened tube life? Is the benefit of speaker "warm up" overcoming the degradation of tube wear? See what I mean? Forget the nonsense, and work to achieve vastly superior sound with a better system. Save your money, get better. Forget the junk methods. An audiophile can waste their life in pursuit of questionable activities instead of going after far better experiences. Don't be someone who wasted 20 years on the inconsequential stuff as opposed to getting a grand system.

@douglas_schroeder , do you believe that the speakers mechanical parts need to be warmed up at all, like a cars engine when you start it in the morning?  Like the surround and voice coils Need to loosen up a bit?  
What about caps in the speaker?  
Caps in the amp?  If I leave my amp on 24/7 it’s warm and teady to go whenever, right?

Thanks for the response! 

We're not talking tube related warm up here. At least I'm not. 

+1 @pwerahera I do the same thing. I have a 70 minute disc of pink noise at all frequencies that I let run for half an hour or so at high volume. Great for the entire system.

I use pink noise track (#15) on Stereophile Test CD when I turn on the stereo after it has been shutdown for sometime. I shutdown the system whenever I am traveling. I unplug everything even if my wife is at home.

So when I turn the system back on, I find running the pink noise track helps to bring the system back to normal. I run this track very loud at 12 or 1 o’ clock position. This has nothing to do with breaking-in of components, but rather forcing all of the components in the chain to come alive.

My main issue is I have tube preamp, DAC, and phone stage. So no matter how hard I try, I still need to wait until tubes warm up and settle down. But pink noise certainly help to get the rust out of speakers drivers if any quickly after not using for sometime. However, I don’t feel the need to do this everyday or every time I sit down for a listening session.
Hope this helps.

I always enjoy reading responses to a question like this; very humorous (and mostly b.s.).  Gosh, what about temperature, humidity, and altitude changes?

Imo, the crossover charging idea is nonsense. They are not being charged when the system is OFF! It's more ridiculous thinking from people who fancy their ears more consistent than the electronics. Same with the foolishness of cables "settling ".

I have this issue as I change speakers from time to time which are next to each other. I am told that the crossovers lose their charge and depending on each size or type of crossover it can take a few hours minimum to get back to working normal. This is when you physically disconnect the speaker cable from the amp or speaker. Is ok if you just switch the amp off as the connection remains
I am having a purpose built super quality switch box made to get over this issue

I leave my solid state amp on all the time so its warm and have always thought that its a good idea to let speakers warm up a bit, say 15 minutes before really laying into them but this was new to me.

Now come to think of it, these speakers Fritz has recently sent me, similar experience.  I had mentioned to him both times “these are starting to break in and open up” and his response Was that the drivers already had time on them, not sure about the crossovers but they probably had time on them as well.

Anyhow, very interesting.  
@schubert , I have never heard about cables adjusting to a speaker... thats an interesting and new thought as well.  Care to expand?  I have Analysis Plus Oval 8’s; absolutely love them.  May be my prized possession of my stereo 😁

Not surprising at all....voice coils are a ’motor’ in a fashion, a coil suspended in a magnetic field, made to move in a controlled fashion.  Just like an ordinary motor, driving a mechanism...

I’ve touched the backs of magnet structures and noted the temperature changes, sometimes to the point of ’ouch!’

That’s when I know it’s time to ’back off’ on the enthusiasm...;)

Most speakers I’ve owned have sounded better after playing for fifteen minutes to half an hour or so from stone cold, depending on volume. This applies with fully warmed up electronics

My 1st generation Acoustic Energy AE1s were particularly prone to this effect. They sounded dreadful cold and liked being given a real bit of ‘welly’ to wake them up. The fact that their diaphragms were designed as voice coil heatsinks may have had something to do with this, slowing their warming to operating temperature.

My mid-range and tweeters have ferrofluid.  I suspect that warm or hot ferrofluid behaves differently than cold ferrofluid.  Also hot speaker coils have higher resistance.  For copper it would be 4% for every 10degC.  Drop in power is negligible, but increase in resistance might affect crossover points.

Once broken in from new, the only break in would be as mentioned here, just a short time to get the crossovers used.

 New speakers (mine) took about 250-300 hours to loosen up the surrounds etc etc.

once broken,in a short time they will be just fine

@b_limo --

Same-ish thing happened to me when I picked up my horn speakers in Brighton, UK back in 2015, and drove them all the way to Denmark in a van - in December (in Northern Europe, where it gets cold in the winter time). Arriving early on the day some hours went by assembling horn sections and cross-overs, and finally by the end of the day when I hooked them up (they'd been broken-in some 2 weeks by their maker after being build), having now gone through some period of acclimatization, they sounded anything but broken-in, but rather thin, "high-strung" and outright dull. I then let some music play through them at a bit more than moderate levels for a couple of hours, and when I came back it was night and day; now they sounded fully relaxed, open and naturally warm. What accounted for this radical change in sonic presentation, I can't say, but several factors might have been involved - the most important of which could've been the whole temperature shift and for all parts, including the horns and overall enclosure, to settle in. 

Interestingly, I also find speakers to usually sound better when they've been given a good workout for a period of time, and I mean speakers that have sat in your system for years even and are fully broken-in. I assume it's not the electronics - although there are gains to be had here as well when they've been turned on for hours, or days - because the presentation doesn't apply to this phenomena with only moderate to low SPL's. If we assume speakers generally respond positively to being played at elevated levels for some time (not to the point of excessively heating up the voice coils and x-over part where heat becomes a negative factor), then what's to account for this change? I don't know. Something tells me it's the drive units and not the passive cross-over parts, but I've very recently acquired new (used) cinema speakers that are fully actively driven, and if they respond the same way (haven't found out yet) I take it that rules out the XO. 

Often , your cables need to adjust to speakers .

I am reminded somewhat of the work some companies have done with battery biased crossovers.  Wonder if they were onto something?? :)

Maybe 21 min 30 seconds max.

I was wondering about that, Douglas, but I’ve never experienced it to that effect before.  Must have been a combination of that and what roberjerman said.

You are adjusting,  getting used to them again. Evey time a new speaker is put in there is an adjustment period. 

I should have been clearer perhaps.

I just got some used Kef R100’s.  They were in transit for a week.  I’m not sure if they were in use before the seller shipped them or how long they’d been sitting around not in use.

I disconnected the speakers I ws using, gently put my speaker cables on the ground without twisting them all up.

Connected the Kefs and there was very little bass and the soundstage sucked.  Listened to them for an hour and thought  I had made a mistake.  Left for an hour (speakers were playing during that time) came back and the soundstage is huge and there is some pretty good bass now.

And I don’t mean subtle changes, it was really really noticeable.  I’ve never experienced something quite like that and I have been through tons of speakers 🤔

Don't know for sure. If you're serious though then you should know there's a range of things that do affect performance and do result in needing some time to settle before returning to equilibrium, ie peak performance. 

Moving wires around. The more of the wire is moved and the more its moved the greater the disturbance and the longer the settling time. If all you do is move the cables around just enough to disconnect and connect its pretty slight and fast- might not even notice or if you do back to normal in a few minutes. But if you disconnect both ends and coil the cable up, bigger difference and might take a few minutes to settle back in. 

I don't know that just a few weeks is long enough for a speaker. Times I have left mine off that long it seemed to be right back where it was within a normal amount of warm-up time. 

Your question is hard to answer because even if you're a skilled and experienced listener who has heard this stuff many times before, ie millercarbon, how would you know if its the caps without some way of removing them to test the idea? Why would you, anyway? I mean I know there's no end of OCD audiophiles. Can we ever really be sure audiophile isn't just another way of spelling navel gazer? If it sounds better warm and we know to warm it up what does it matter if its the wire or the cap if its all the same in the end?

@erik_squires 

what is your definition of capacitor break in?

Based on my experience, if this happens, it's the caps.

I have never heard a speaker go "backwards" but then, I've not really experimented in this particular fashion.

What i will say is that speaker caps take 2-4 days to break in, not hours.