Gk said,
" There will be no joy in Mudville today. "
Not as long as your opines are in play it would seem.
Cheers!
" There will be no joy in Mudville today. "
Not as long as your opines are in play it would seem.
Cheers!
Do equipment stands have an impact on electronics?
Mechanical grounding or isolation from vibration has been a hot topic as of late. Many know from experience that footers, stands and other vibration technologies impact things that vibrate a lot like speakers, subs or even listening rooms (my recent experience with an "Energy room"). The question is does it have merit when it comes to electronics and if so why? Are there plausible explanations for their effect on electronics or suggested measurement paradigms to document such an effect?
1,146 responses Add your response
Hi geoffkait, Dave, you are the anti-Kait and too refined a soul for this nasty band of philistines. Yes, those traits are all inherent to "flesh." The DSMR simply refers to a more pathologic, higher frequency of expression. That is true for all axis II personality disorders. An interesting side note would be what smoldering, occult psychiatric disorder drives audio? OCD? Would a pill make all this go away? |
Kait, since Sheldrake makes an argument for things like telepathy and telekinesis (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/scientific-heretic-rupert-sheldrake-on-morphic-fields-psychic-dogs-and-other-mysteries/), would't that be the ultimate form of equipment isolation? Use our minds to float the stuff. Now that is from the future.... |
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agear wrote, "Kait, since Sheldrake makes an argument for things like telepathy and telekinesis (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/scientific-heretic-rupert-sheldrake-on-morphic-fiel...), would't that be the ultimate form of equipment isolation? Use our minds to float the stuff. Now that is from the future" Yes, it's from the future. Your future. But my present. have a good one |
theaudiotweak 1,388 posts 11-01-2016 4:41pm Even if it floats it will still suffer from shear wave interference. It needs to be rigidly coupled to remove and dissipate the polarity of shear that becomes a part of the signal. Tom. Star Sound Technologies Sorry, Tom, but that statement cannot possibly be true. If it were true, which it’s not, the LIGO project to detect gravity waves produced by merging galaxies, merging black holes and the Big Bang would never have been able to develop isolation systems capable of reducing the seismic background noise sufficiently to be able to observe gravity waves with amplitudes on the order of the diameter of a neutron. Which, by the way, is much much smaller than the diameter of an atom. Follow? Have a nice week, Geoff Kait machina dynamica give me a strong enough spring and I'll isolate the world |
Nope..I do not and will not follow you! The Ligo system maybe designed to destroy all polarities of shear and maybe it works well at that function to extract and detect gravity waves. Polarties of shear..are a part of the mechanical function of speakers and other reproduced audio signal ..signals that will be reduced in amplitude by your methods and others you tout. Key negative words to descibe your methods..Canellation and forces to overcome the Interia your methods present to any thing that has a chance of motion for reproducing a copy of the original signal. Think of a voice coil..think of stylus motion. They have to overcome the body of resistance and counter action your wares present to any responsive and linear motion. Tom |
Tom, you are continuing to relate to loudspeaker function and sound which is no longer the topic of discovery here. Stick to Ligo for that project governs everything known and unknown for all mankind.
Still waiting for Mr. Kait to tell us what Ligo has to do with audible sound here on earth and/or how it relates to audio equipment and sound room performance. As a retired sound engineer I can only state that thank goodness Ligo has not ruined music as much as it continues to ruin this thread. Speaking of which...
okAIT - It’s my turn now.
Mr. Kait attempts to belittle another listener stating:
“Sorry, but once I see, "I have 30 years in audio or I have been doing this for 40 years, therefore..." I don’t read whatever comes next. Force of habit. Lol”
Then...
Mr. Kait comes back with - “Besides Townshend and I between us have more than 40 years of experience in vibration isolation.”
Huh??? 40 years here and another 40 there… Read ON!
Question: “40 years between us”; is that similar to “collectively”? Mr. Kait, you might check with Mr. Townshend and get legal permission before you consider him your adopted brother.
Then Mr. Kait rants on - “Only a fool would enter the fray at this point but I guess you guys are desperate so let er rip! Lol”
Sorry to report Mr. Kait, we are not desperate to spend time wasted with you. Unlike yourself who constantly attempts to belittle the members here, we absolutely honor clients with 30 to 40 years in audio and truly appreciate it when they share their listening experiences with us. That type of participation is how we continue to learn and innovate.
While on the topic of experience: It appears that I have been mixing music on a professional level while you were listening to FM radios in college and years before your state-of-the-art reference Walkman was first manufactured and fifteen years or so before you sold your first bag of audio rocks. If we were to add up the collective years of experience between the engineers and people involved in our company, we would very easily topple the century mark. The names and backgrounds of our company membership are located on our website for your personal review in case you’re having any disbelief or wish to challenge collective brain power.
That said; I fail to see what those combined “40 years of experience” gets you or how it is meant to connect with the readership. Are you attempting to earn some type of bragging rights or are you simply waving the ‘beware of dog’ sign in our face? In your words - “Lol”
Kait states further - “Firstly, let me say I eat seismologists for breakfast. All this idle talk about seismologists is making me hungry.”
OK - Mr. G Kait - I am now compelled to ask… After devouring the seismologists, eight hours later or based on a regular morning routine, is this digestive process how the Brilliant Pebbles are actually manufactured?
GK comes on with more advice for listeners: “You’re not the boss of me. Go admire your rock collection and above all get a life!”
Wait just one minute… It appears you Mr. Kait are the only one peddling a rock collection around here!
(Sorry again for my wasting everyone’s time in an unprofessional manner as this thread turns more toxic. Too many years of touring rock and roll always give me the urge for the occasional rebuttal)
With regards to the forthcoming statement on what we have learned about seismology and how it relates to audio reproduction and isolation springs, please be patient Mr. “Great Kait” as there is a lot of information being processed for publication. We are a small business actively advancing a technology so unfortunately there is not a lot of time left to humor you or your associate on a daily basis.
Out # 3 (GK’s monkey made that call) - Start the next inning.
Robert Star Sound |
Oh Robert what do you know about sound? "thats rights we have discussed your backround in music and in the studio ( quite impressive to a musician like myself knowing the powerhouse bands you have worked with ) on the phone many times usually you ringing me at home 👍I am a firm believer in your gear providing beneficial improvements to almost all audio components including my tube guitar amp lately. And yes this is getting toxic here . But it is quite interesting . I have dr. who popping in later in his phonebooth to test a few things 👍 Anyone interested in discussing this ,we will be using mental telepathy at 9pm pst sharp in this dimension . Anytime in dimensions 4-11 |
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theaudiotweak wrote, "The Ligo system maybe designed to destroy all polarities of shear and maybe it works well at that function to extract and detect gravity waves. Polarties of shear..are a part of the mechanical function of speakers and other reproduced audio signal ..signals that will be reduced in amplitude by your methods and others you tout. Key negative words to descibe your methods..Canellation and forces to overcome the Interia your methods present to any thing that has a chance of motion for reproducing a copy of the original signal. Think of a voice coil..think of stylus motion. They have to overcome the body of resistance and counter action your wares present to any responsive and linear motion." LIGO places all the detectors in a very high vacuum. Do you think that helps with your issue? As I have stated I’m a big fan of damping the top plate of my or any iso systems as some vibration from the floor is obviously being transmitted to the component, not to mention any self induced noise or acoustic wave influences. My devices - like all mass on spring devices - allow *ease of motion* in direction of interest, ease of motion being the opposite of inertia, no? Very stiff materials are good for resisting bending moments and using very hard materials (recall the NASA grade diamond hardness ceramics) are excellent for allowing vibrations to exist the system rapidly. Have I missed anything? |
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Audiopoint wrote, Huh??? 40 years here and another 40 there… Read ON! Question: “40 years between us”; is that similar to “collectively”? Mr. Kait, you might check with Mr. Townshend and get legal permission before you consider him your adopted brother. Whoa! What? Are you serious? What’s up with all the stupid remarks? Were you at the knee of you know who a little too long? |
LIGO places all the detectors in a very high vacuum. Do you think that helps with your issue? As I have stated I’m a big fan of damping the top plate of my or any iso systems as some vibration from the floor is obviously being transmitted to the component, not to mention any self induced noise or acoustic wave influences. My devices - like all mass on spring devices - allow *ease of motion* in direction of interest, ease of motion being the opposite of inertia, no? Very stiff materials are good for resisting bending moments and using very hard materials (recall the NASA grade diamond hardness ceramics) are excellent for allowing vibrations to exist the system rapidly.You have missed everything as nothing concrete has been stated or verified (much like your guru Sheldrake). "My devices...allow ease of motion in the direction of interest..."? Say what? As the OP, the intellectual innuendo behind this thread is this: does any data exist to justify the use of stands with electronics? Thus far, we have have paranormal theory and talk of the occult influence of seismologic phenomena but nothing more. Anyone? |
theaudiotweak 1,390 posts 11-02-2016 10:53am Solids in a vacuum will transmit shear from part to part. Maybe your LIGO model and reference has system parts that kill or cancel all polarities of shear. Some polarities of shear are required for audio reproduction others are not. Tom. Star Sound What causes the shear you’re referring to? The LIGO detectors don’t vibrate themselves, they’re excited to vibrate by external vibrations. That’s kind of the whole point. Unless you’ve got some sort of perpetual motion machine, here. So far you're not making sense. And as Judge Judy sez, if it doesn't make sense it's not true. Let’s try this. Rather than have you repeat your statement over and over try explaining what you’re referring to. Do you have a wiki page? Can you explain it yourself? When I talk about isolation I’m referring to isolating a component from external structureborne vibration. So somehow we’re on the same page yet. LIGO has the world’s greatest experts on vibration isolation. Somehow I’m getting the impression the guys at Star Sound do not know what isolation even is. |
Agear wrote, "You have missed everything as nothing concrete has been stated or verified (much like your guru Sheldrake). "My devices...allow ease of motion in the direction of interest..."? Say what?" Why do I have the feeling you’re hearing all this for the first time? I explained what I meant, anyway. You’re just being obtuse, or pretending to be obtuse. Can’t tell. "As the OP, the intellectual innuendo behind this thread is this: does any data exist to justify the use of stands with electronics? Thus far, we have have paranormal theory and talk of the occult influence of seismologic phenomena but nothing more. Anyone?" Actually that’s not true. But that’s what a troll would say. Maybe time to head to the library, eh? Of you’re looking for data you need look no further than the fact more than 10,000 audiophiles have purchased Vibraplane isolation. Oh, wait I almost forgot. You’re a skeptic that cannot be convinced of anything. You probably think it’s paranormal or group hypnosis. To be so skeptical about vibration isolation, you know, 20 years after the introduction of vitbration isolation to audiophiles doesn’t really reflect well on your progress in this hobby. You call yourself Ag Ear but can you even hear? |
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dlcockrum 416 posts 11-02-2016 11:57am Hi geoffkait, Good discussion (mostly) on reducing/eliminating external vibration. What about internal vibration of components? I may have missed that earlier in the thread or elsewhere... Best to you geoffkait, Dave We have covered internally produced vibration earlier. Even this morning I mentioned it somewhere along the line, when I mentioned damping the top plate of an iso stand and using extremely hard materials to evacuate vibration rapidly from the system. Turntable motor noise, CD transport motor noise, transformer noise, capacitor noise, things of that nature can be addressed by damping techniques such as constrained layer damping. But for very low frequency seismic type vibration means other than damping or even Coulomb friction must be employed. Enter vibration isolation! have a nice day, Dave |
Thanks Geoff. I did indeed miss that and appreciate you backtracking for me. I will go back and reread the early posts. I recently added Symposium Svelte shelves (constrained layer damping)and ridged steel footers with HF transducers under my SACD player, preamp & its external power supply. The improvement in image stability/specificity, soundstage width, and bass tautness is noticeable and satisfying. Coincidentally, I mentioned to another audiophile friend of mine that we used an air table sitting atop a huge slab of granite underneath the electron microscope we used to perform ASIC post-mortums in my electronics manufacturing division and suggested that he consider an air table underneath his digital source in his ultra-high-end system. His response was that that type of vibration-control technology was extremely outdated. I begged to differ and we ended that discussion by agreeing to disagree. My lead-and-sand-filled rigid-steel Sound Anchors component stand sits on cones atop my home’s concrete slab foundation and I can easily feel vibration sympathetic with the sound by placing my hand on the stand. As you say, rigidity, mass damping, and direct coupling are obviously not the complete answer to vibration management. Best to you Geoff, Dave |
Dave wrote, "Coincidentally, I mentioned to another audiophile friend of mine that we used an air table sitting atop a huge slab of granite underneath the electron microscope we used to perform ASIC post-mortums in my electronics manufacturing division and suggested that he consider an air table underneath his digital source in his ultra-high-end system. His response was that that type of vibration-control technology was extremely outdated. I begged to differ and we ended that discussion by agreeing to disagree." When you say air table I trust you mean airspring table. Things are more complicated than I’ve let on, aren’t they always? and any type of iso stand can be tricky if one wishes to obtain the best possible performance. That’s why isolation is an art as much as a science. For example, some air spring have more internal damping than others. Minimizing the number of airsprings improves performance all things being equal as does selecting proper means of interfacing the component to the top plate and interfacing the stand itself to whatever surface it sits on. As I also already mentioned different types of isolation can sometimes be mixed, providing additional gains in performance. Of course the spring rate of whatever steel springs or air springs are employed must be matched to the load of interest. |
dlcockrum ... My lead-and-sand-filled rigid-steel Sound Anchors component stand sits on cones atop my home’s concrete slab foundation and I can easily feel vibration sympathetic with the sound by placing my hand on the stand.Really? That's simply amazing! Are you talking about just low frequencies here, or do the sympathetic vibrations feel like they span a wider range? |
When energy is applied to soft spongy materials that are used in combinations with springs supporting a loudspeaker, everything supported remains in a state of continuous motion. By doing so, this negates the operational efficiency of a voice coil as the coil itself becomes subjected to this secondary flexing. Ultimately, the voice coil drives the entire speaker assembly and has to overcome the added inertia presented by the motion of the springs and soft materials upon which the cabinet rests. The constant motion and flexing with this type of isolation device manifests inefficiencies within the operational design of the voice coil. Tom. Star Sound Technologies |
"Really? That's simply amazing! Are you talking about just low frequencies here, or do the sympathetic vibrations feel like they span a wider range?" Hi cleeds, My "hand test" is not calibrated. lol Yes, The deep bass frequencies do generate more perceivable vibration into the stand, but I think some of the harmonics of string instruments and drums transmit also. High volumes are required to feel this. I have my Thiel CS5i's and dual REL Stadium III subs spiked to the concrete slab as well, so lots of low bass (and other) frequencies are being transmitted into the concrete. I should point out that here in Texas, we have "trampoline" foundations whereby steel rebar cables are laid and put under tension within the foundation prior to pouring the concrete in order to allow the foundation to move with the soil. Perhaps the scientists involved here can posit on the effects of this "trampoline" on vibration transmission. Best to you cleeds, Dave |
Theaudiotweak wrote, "When energy is applied to soft spongy materials that are used in combinations with springs supporting a loudspeaker, everything supported remains in a state of continuous motion. By doing so, this negates the operational efficiency of a voice coil as the coil itself becomes subjected to this secondary flexing. Ultimately, the voice coil drives the entire speaker assembly and has to overcome the added inertia presented by the motion of the springs and soft materials upon which the cabinet rests. The constant motion and flexing with this type of isolation device manifests inefficiencies within the operational design of the voice coil." i have been preaching pretty much the same thing, I.e., use only very hard materials for interfacing with iso systems. I actually don't know of any isolation devices that employ soft spongy material with springs but maybe there are some, who knows? This concept of soft spongy materials is somewhat related to the idea that one should not use spring type systems in series, for example arbitrarily using a spring-based iso device with a turntable with springy or rubbery feet. I have constructed dual layer mass-spring systems but certain precautions must be designed in to prevent interactions between layers. |
Actually that’s not true. But that’s what a troll would say. Maybe time to head to the library, eh? Of you’re looking for data you need look no further than the fact more than 10,000 audiophiles have purchased Vibraplane isolation. Oh, wait I almost forgot. You’re a skeptic that cannot be convinced of anything. You probably think it’s paranormal or group hypnosis. To be so skeptical about vibration isolation, you know, 20 years after the introduction of vitbration isolation to audiophiles doesn’t really reflect well on your progress in this hobby. You call yourself Ag Ear but can you even hear?That's not proof of concept. Since you cannot generate a valid argument or data, maybe having just one of the 10,000 philes chime in on their experiences. We have heard your jingles one too many times. Yawn.... |
Good discussion (mostly) on reducing/eliminating external vibration. What about internal vibration of components? I may have missed that earlier in the thread or elsewhere...You have not missed anything since that point has been obfuscated and thus my attempt to refocus the thread. Seismic juju is a red herring as is discussion of speakers, etc. Does vibration of any form effect electrical performance in electronics and why? Sheldrake and his magic carpet ride of morphic resonance is not an acceptable answer. Someone can start another thread on mysticism and audio or religion and audio and what belief structures facilitate joy in audio. Are we trying to enter into the holy of holies through music, etc. That would be interesting but back to the subject at hand. |
Agear wrote, "You have not missed anything since that point has been obfuscated and thus my attempt to refocus the thread. Seismic juju is a red herring as is discussion of speakers, etc. Does vibration of any form effect electrical performance in electronics and why? Sheldrake and his magic carpet ride of morphic resonance is not an acceptable answer. Someone can start another thread on mysticism and audio or religion and audio and what belief structures facilitate joy in audio. Are we trying to enter into the holy of holies through music, etc. That would be interesting but back to the subject at hand." Something’s being obfuscated all right and someone’s apparently having trouble following the discussion or attempting to manhandle the discussion (and it’s not Dave). The whole side discussion about Morphic resonance was separate from any discussion about mechanical vibration, seismic vibration, equipment influence on electonics or vibration isolation or LIGO for that matter. And I think you probably know it. Guess what that makes you? Youuuu know... Pop quiz: (multiple choice) a botanist, b theoretical physicist, c genetic researcher, d troll. |
agear OP 1,221 posts 11-03-2016 1:25am Geoffkait: LIGO has the world’s greatest experts on vibration isolation. "Invite them to this thread to educate us....or conduct a video interview." Hahahaha. I hate to judge before all the facts are in but you are apparently immune from education. You know, when you post an OP with an "innocent question" then refuse to accept any answer, that makes you a _________ (fill in the blank). I suppose it would have helped if your 14 years in school and training had included some, just a little, basic physics. The concepts are not really that difficult. The LIGO isolation took 20 years to develop to the point the background noise could be reduced enough so that a gravity wave with amplitude of the diameter of a neutron could be differentiated from seismic noise, which has frequencies in the same range as the gravity waves. Hel-loo! |
agear OP wrote, Geoffkait: Actually that’s not true. But that’s what a troll would say. Maybe time to head to the library, eh? Of you’re looking for data you need look no further than the fact more than 10,000 audiophiles have purchased Vibraplane isolation. Oh, wait I almost forgot. You’re a skeptic that cannot be convinced of anything. You probably think it’s paranormal or group hypnosis. To be so skeptical about vibration isolation, you know, 20 years after the introduction of vitbration isolation to audiophiles doesn’t really reflect well on your progress in this hobby. You call yourself Ag Ear but can you even hear? to which agear replied, "That’s not proof of concept. Since you cannot generate a valid argument or data, maybe having just one of the 10,000 philes chime in on their experiences. We have heard your jingles one too many times." I never said it was proof of concept. I said it was evidence that vibration isolation improves the sound. That's what your trollish OP is asking! right? Apparently you haven’t been paying *enough* attention to my jingles. Maybe you should change your moniker to Sn ear or Sn horn. ;-) |
Geoff Your saying your springs do not rotate or twist on their vertical axis, more so when they are longer? Your saying your springs don't have a variable rate of rise and decay time in relation to the amount of force applied? If they do then they are in motion .Your saying your springs are immune to the rotational forces of some wave types? The soft spongy materials are only iceing on the layered cake ..the spring being as stable as a layer cake. Anything resting on either of these two transient surfaces will be in motion. Tom Star Sound |
Tom at Star Sound wrote, "Geoff, Your saying your springs do not rotate or twist on their vertical axis, more so when they are longer?" No, I’m not saying that. I’m saying that depending on the number of springs and the spring rate and load they can twist around the vertical. But since multiple springs are generally used the resistance to twist is increased according to the number of springs, so for 3 or 4 springs the resistance to twist is great. My original Nimbus sub Hertz iso decide was relatively free to move in the twist direction as well as the two other rotational directions since it employed a single spring. Recall I just got through saying isolation is proportional to the ease of motion in a direction of interest. And when the component does move it is constrained to move at only one frequency - the resonant frequency of the isolating device. The low pass filter disallows motion in other frequencies, except for the ones below the Fr. Tom also wrote, "Your saying your springs don’t have a variable rate of rise and decay time in relation to the amount of force applied? If they do then they are in motion. I’m not saying the springs don’t move. Of course they move. Hel-loo! To which Tom added, "Your saying your springs are immune to the rotational forces of some wave types? The soft spongy materials are only iceing on the layered cake ..the spring being as stable as a layer cake. Anything resting on either of these two transient surfaces will be in motion." I’m not saying the springs are immune to rotational forces. As I said above it defends on how much lateral support the spring(s) provide. Usually multiple springs mean lots of lateral support thus less isolation in the twist OR other toe rotational directions. That what the degrees of freedom indicates. Most iso systems one sees around are not the full 6 degrees of freedom type, while are more technically challenging. The isolation that springs provide to rotational forces obey the same physical laws as they do for isolating in the vertical direction - they act as low pass mechanical filters. That’s precisely why I mentioned yesterday that mixing different types of iso devices can be rewarding in terms of performance. For example, springs (vertical) plus roller bearing assemblies (twist and rock and roll and some horizontal). So if it’s isolation in the twist or other rotational directions that floats your boat as it were then maybe just use roller bearing assemblies. My original Nimbus could move easily in the twist direction because it employed only a single air spring so it did not have much lateral support, which is both a problem for supporting higher loads and a bonus since the twist isolation is improved over conventional multiple air spring designs. The geometry of my air spring was also superior to the air bladders generally employed by iso devices. To summarize my answer, the isolation is provided by the ability to move. If the component is resting on a stable solid base (no isolation) it will still move along with the floor and the shaking all over motion the house is forced into by seismic forces, including Earth crust motion (microseisms). Cheers, Geoff Kait Machina Dynamica "give me a string enough spring and I’ll isolate the world" |
dlcockrum ... deep bass frequencies do generate more perceivable vibration into the stand, but I think some of the harmonics of string instruments and drums transmit also.Thanks for the info, Dave. I've never heard of a "trampoline foundation," but I guess it has something to do with the soil you have in Texas. While I'm surprised that you can detect the vibration in your turntable stand as you described, I have to admit that I've never actually tested my stand to see if it's similarly vulnerable to such vibration. I'll put that on my hi-fi to-do list. |
Does vibration of any form effect electrical performance in electronics and why?The why is microphonics. The devices affected are tubes, transistors, film capacitors and cables. The most microphonic tubes I've seen are frame grid triodes of the 6DJ8/6922 family including the so-called 'super tubes' like the 6H30 and such. The most microphonic film caps I've seen were military hermetically sealed Teflon caps. They rang like a bell. All film caps have some microphonics though. I've seen microphonic transistors too. Some so bad that they simply had to be replaced. Usually they have very low microphonics but if you think they have none you're living in a fantasy world. I've seen interconnect cables make noise simply by moving them. Some cables are far more susceptible than others. Cables are often used inside equipment as are caps, tubes and transistors. So it makes sense to keep the equipment as still as possible for best results. This is not anything new. The table for our LP mastering lathe is set on adjustable points. The table was made in the late 1940s. On top of the table sits a damping platform on which the lathe resides. It is coupled to the platform by adjustable points. Inside my Ampex recorders its really obvious that the designers were going to some lengths to reduce microphonic effects, and not just for the sake of the tubes. So this really should not be a surprise to anyone that this stuff is audible and measurable. The damping controls have in some cases been understood for over 60 years!! |
Thanks Atmasphere for providing that very useful information. It certainly "rings" true for me. Gotta expect that the experts who make these things and do it well are aware of the issues and address them to some extent accordingly which is surely part of why the good sounding gear sounds good. As a simple home user, I leave those things to the experts and judge with my ears. At home, I do what I can to minimize vibrations that I can control, like the effects those coming out of my speakers may have. Or those transmitted through the floor or can occur whenever gear does not set on a solid and firm foundation. My goal is to enjoy great sounding music. Some things are best left to the experts to solve, those who actually provide the gear we use and listen to with pleasure. |
mapman Some things are best left to the experts to solve Yes, but even top end equipment is built to a price point and after market solutions to these problems can be beneficial -- case in point changing the rubber ring tube dampers on ARC kit to Herbie's dampers (see this thread) -- this is a $500 change on a typical ARC top end tube amp (at retail) and likely many times more than the cost of the rubber rings Secondly the manufacturer (with some rare exceptions) does not know the circumstances of where/how the equipment may be racked hence the validity of numerous footers and supports such as being discussed in this thread So many reasons to believe that even a well designed and vibration thought out device can be further optimized |
I have and I strongly suggest to mechanically direct couple all internal major parts of an audio component. Nothing is decoupled in my power amps. These parts include transformers and any all filter caps that are chassis mounted. I have direct coupled the 4lb copper heat sink that stands vertically and has attached the 2 power mosfets which is then bolted to the bottom plate of the chassis. The main circuit assembly is mounted to our Sound Works platform and tensioned thru the board and out thru the chassis frame below and secured.. All of these parts reside on Audio Points and our coupling discs and must be secured and clamped into place for maximum audio performance and safety concerns. I had cut and drilled brass cylinders that mount near the non existent corners to which the top and bottom plates are tensioned. The whole component is then mounted externally to one of our Sistrum or Rhythm Platforms with our points which face north to the 3 tensioned internal connecting rods.. This was certainly an exercise of will but the payoff is high... and wall to wall tall, with resolution that extends past my listening chair. The endeavor was to make all the internal vibration go in one primary direction..to ground. To do this, like geometry and materials are required to maintain speed and operational efficiency. Tom |
theaudiotweak 1,393 posts 11-03-2016 3:36pm I have and I strongly suggest to mechanically direct couple all internal major parts of an audio component. Nothing is decoupled in my power amps. These parts include transformers and any all filter caps that are chassis mounted. I have direct coupled the 4lb copper heat sink that stands vertically and has attached the 2 power mosfets which is then bolted to the bottom plate of the chassis. The main circuit assembly is mounted to our Sound Works platform and tensioned thru the board and out thru the chassis frame below and secured.. All of these parts reside on Audio Points and our coupling discs and must be secured and clamped into place for maximum audio performance and safety concerns. I had cut and drilled brass cylinders that mount near the non existent corners to which the top and bottom plates are tensioned. The whole component is then mounted externally to one of our Sistrum or Rhythm Platforms with our points which face north to the 3 tensioned internal connecting rods.. This was certainly an exercise of will but the payoff is high... and wall to wall tall, with resolution that extends past my listening chair. The endeavor was to make all the internal vibration go in one primary direction..to ground. To do this, like geometry and materials are required to maintain speed and operational efficiency. Tom I realize I’ve probably asked you this question before but now that you’ve taken case of the vibrations produced by motors, transformers, etc. In the component and vibrations that might wind up there due to acoustic forces how did you address the seismic vibrations? It appears you’re ignoring them. Maybe you are thinking the seismic vibrations go up and are are taken back down by the Audio Points, or perhaps you believe the Audio Points disallow seismic vibrations from being transmitted up to the component, who knows? Am I missing something? I hate to judge before all the facts are in but you guys appear to be behaving like the proverbial ostrich with his head in the sand. It may very well have been an "exercise of will" but apparently you willed the whole seismic isolation argument away with a wave of your hand. Speaking of which whatever happened to your seismic waves? |
theaudiotweak 1,394 posts 11-03-2016 4:12pm Geoff The response is coming soon and what you have exercised for 20 years or more has nothing to do with how LIGO operates as it does not relate to your audio products.. In your instance, it is not a single case of suspended animation..Tom That’s a pretty bold statement, Tom. I have not idea what you’ve got up your sleeve but you better believe I’m on pins and needles. Heck, I don’t even know what you’re saying so color me embarrassed. I even tried using my decoder ring. It sounds really intriguing though and I can't wait to see what you little monkeys will say next. geoff kait machina dynamica advanced audio concepts |
Mapman wrote, "Or those transmitted through the floor or can occur whenever gear does not set on a solid and firm foundation." The problem is that even when gear is set on a solid foundation as you put it, the gear is still vibrating. That’s because the entire house is shaking due to the microseismic activity, traffic, etc. This is precisely why audiophiles found out a long time ago that all efforts to build a rigid, solid foundation for their gear are for naught compared to isolating the gear. The building, house, whatever is not only moving up and down but side to side and in all rotational directions. Cool, huh? Like a boat out in the ocean when a wave passes under it, the boat moves up and down, forward and back and rolls back and forth. Capish? |
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GK so how do you address that with your system? And do you hear a difference before and after? My stuff sounds great, better than ever as a result of the things I have done to isolate my gear from various vibrations at hand. Detail, soundstage, imaging, articulate bass, you name it. All better than ever for me. But one can always do better I am sure. |
Mapman asked what I use in my setup. Stage 1 - The Bio Mikro G utilizes bamboo, viscoelastic material and pure glass microspheres to mimic a woodpecker head’s bone, elastic layer and spongy layer, respectively, surrounding the bird’s brain. Without such evolutionary features, the woodpecker would surely damage his brain and or die. Stage 2 - Diamond harness NASA grade ceramic cones underneath the Bio Mikro G. Stage 3 - Cryo’d super low spring rate steel springs between the Bio Mikro g and the Sony Walkman. Stage 4 - Constrained layer damping of my own design, VibraBlock Stage 5 - Mpingo disc and Diamond Hardness cones placed on top of the top plate of the Bio Mikro G for further quieting of the top plate. this Sony Walkman system minimizes all the things that would ordinarily vibrate in a larger system. It also minimizes or eliminates cabling, fuses, transformers, power cords, house AC, AC ground. You know, things that are inherently problematic. Not to mention this system obviously avoids all room issues. I view that as a good thing. Lol |
Very cool. Ever try try just holding it? The body would provide a lot of damping of both s and p waves. I have spring loaded rotating adjustable feet under my dac. They were rather pricey in their day especially for Radio Shack. I had them though and use them and they work great as best I can tell. My digital sounds awesome if I might be so bold to say. |
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