Discerning a difference between streamers is difficult...only me or common for all?

I think one of your “issues” is that Bluesound Nodes/Nanos work very well when used as streamers that feed a high quality external DAC. I use a NODE 130 that I purchased from Fidelity Audio in the UK with FA’s PSU unit pre-installed and then added a Gustard X26 Pro DAC and then later a Innuos Phoenix USB reclocker. At this point, I think I would buy a better DAC before looking for a better streamer (though since I’m out of components to upgrade, Immopen to suggestions as to what streamer or DAC would make a noticeable difference in SQ

(the rest of my system consists of a Bryston 4B3, Primaluna Evo 400 pre bi-wired to Tannoy Cheviots with SR Foundation or better cabling and PCs throughout)(I suspect the best thing I could do would be to upgrade my speakers, but my wife hates tower speakers and would not go for anything that is physically bigger)

It's always complicated to apply our feelings and experiences to others.  I'd just advise you to stop worrying, as forums, online stores and tests always make you believe that your equipment is absolutely brilliant, but it's very rare to read a complete description of the listening room, the equipment and the way it's used. Not to mention your own listening habits.
I've had the same Innuos streamer for 4 years, with basic Oyaide cables, and it works well. I'm not looking for a rare pearl, a magic cable, I just listen to the music.
If you're brave enough there are of course other brands at all prices, but in the end the question is “what do you miss today when you listen to music?”

I have basically the same system for 5 yrs but added several things to make it sound better. I have a Node 2i with a Pd Creative power supply and aftermarket power cord. It sits on Herbie’s dots. The router has a linear power supply. I run a Cat 6 Blue Jeans Cable from the router to the streamer. There is a noise filter on each end of the ethernet cable. DX Engineering filters $50. I am using a Topping D 90 with aftermarket power cord. It also has Herbie’s under it. This was good sounding. Then I added a Furman Elite power conditioner. Also bought Furman power strips and plugged all the noisy phone chargers etc. Into the strips. I tried silver coated interconnects and OCC copper. Ended up with a mix of each for the cabling.

All the extras have added quite a bit to the sound of my system. If one of these changes were added it made a difference, but cumulatively made a huge improvement. Power, detailed pleasant 25 Hz bass, transients I never knew were there. The sound is just smooth and not fatiguing. Bear in mind component isolation,  cords, cables, power conditioning all are on the budget side.  You could easily spend thousands more for more expensive brands.

I will save all the software issues for a later date. QOBUZ and BLUOS has been nothing but problems.

streamers don’t have a sound or different tonality (assuming no differences re up- or oversampling, etc.).  They have different levels of noise, but even there, the differences between relatively cheap but well-engineered streamers and insanely expensive ones can be subtle or nonexistent.  Noise levels can affect how well you’re hearing your DAC, but if it’s a decent streamer, your DAC dominates what you hear.

Why not a Innuos Zenith mk3. It has a cd ripper ,a Nice SS drive  fantastic interface 

3 separate LPS power supplies ,isolation damping everywhere including the Teac cd ripper and SS drive,and excellent iso bearing feet ,and the Excellent  Mundorf Mlytic  capacitors , plus the innuos sense app is very intuitive .

the  Zen with reclocker sounds actually a bit better ,

i use my own Gaia reclocker , the sense app puts folders and playlists together seamlessly and sounds better then Roon which is a big bonus setting up judt hit the app button found and yiu just pick configurations the  most thought out streamer 

I have found to date and this is a bit warmer sounding due to the Mundorf caps .

tip if you want your digital to sound better still Tubulus Audio cables ,they beat cables much more $$ and only true I2S  -Audio cable  the AQ dragon audio only exception ,and the less expensive Tubulus Concentus is much better. And Ethernet cables very good ,always put your best Ethernet cable at your end point- Streamer 

land Router put a good LPS to block incoming noise,Thst cheap wall wart judt ads noise to your audio chain,digital house to house is not grounded !                      Linear Tube Audio-  excellent LPS for $750.

Some excellent comments above. Could it be the room? Could it be your connects? Is your Ethernet filtered? Power treated? All the stuff that goes with streaming needs to be cleaned up. Lots on Agon on how to do it.

I’ll list what I tried…

1. Mac Mini 2008 with its outboard power supply

2. Mac Mini 2018

3. Auralic Aries G1

4. Lumin U1 Mini

5. Bricasti M3 network renderer as Roon endpoint 

6. Aurender N200

7. WiiM Pro

When my 2008 mac mini crapped out and I replaced it with the 2018 version I noticed a slight degradation in sound quality. 
Bought Auralic Aries G1. Way better than Mac Mini. Lightning DS software was very good, sounded better using LDS than it did as a Roon endpoint. 
Lumin U1 Mini - slightly smoother sound than the Auralic. Hideous UI. Good as Roon endpoint. 
Bricasti M3 network card - virtually indistinguishable sonically from U1 Mini as Roon endpoint. Sold U1 Mini. Neither of these were any good as streamers. A cheap Audiolab 6000CDT transport spinning CD destroyed Roon. 
Bought Aurender N200 to try. Stands up to and in most cased exceeds CD quality streaming CD files and hires Qobuz. Much better than Lumin U1 Mini and the Bricasti M3 network card. Tried it with Roon and prefer the sound of the Conductor app/processing. Solid, stable and great sounding streamer. Sold my very decent analog setup as I just stopped playing vinyl records - streaming sounds excellent!

As to WiiM Pro, I tried it and returned it. Sounded like 💩

So my experience differs from some in this thread. Oh and I’ve used the Aurender with 3 different DACs, with Pass Labs separates and 2 different integrated amplifiers. No issues with sound quality. Natural, detailed, engaging presentation. 
 

I have no wish to add to the OP’s confusion, and I agree with many of the commenters who feel that past a certain level, streamers can vary in whatever added value they bring to a system. But we also shouldn’t overlook the differences in software. All these devices require some sort of operating system for connectivity, and most, if not all of them, are based on various versions of Linux. And within Linux there are a number of different playback and connectivity formats, among threm MPD, Minimserver, BubbleUPnP, Squeezelite, etc. All of these offer somewhat different sonic presentations. One reason I like my Pi2AES so much is that I can choose my own OS and player software. While a lot of these are free, like Ropiee, Moode or Volumio, I’m happy to pay extra for a system like Gentooplayer, which allows a wide choice of different "players" and a lot of tweaks and extras, like the Diretta ethernet protocol. Now there’s an extra layer or two of "tuneability." This isn’t for everyone, obviously, but it is worth noting that the software provided with a streamer can have a significant impact on the sound. It might consist of a basic DLNA server, or it might incorporate something more sophisticated.

I bought a blue sound Device and for the price it was very good but on the cheap side. I bought a chord tt2 dac which was pretty good and had a lot of pretty lights on top.  I then bought a lumin x1 which is a combined streamer/dac.  I thought it was amazing. It made 70s recorded Music actually sound pretty good. And it gets a lot of great feedback from others.

I hate all the connectivity that's involved with a hi-fi system while also really liking separates.  In the case of a streamer I liked the idea about the dac being integrated because the wiring and connections are probably done very well internally and I think they are in this case, the chips used were quite good and were wired very well which is really important.

Now I don't have to torment myself with dac interconnects and need to consider a new separate dac all the time.  And there are so many to pick from.

And x1 has a separate power box which is a good thing.  And it's really aerodynamic which is really cool too.

I still have my blue sound sitting in a box and the chord dac is also sitting in a box. Fortunately they're not very big to store away.  

I bought a blue sound Device and for the price it was very good but on the cheap side. I bought a chord tt2 dac which was pretty good and had a lot of pretty lights on top.  I then bought a lumin x1 which is a combined streamer/dac.  I thought it was amazing. It made 70s recorded Music actually sound pretty good. And it gets a lot of great feedback from others.

I hate all the connectivity that's involved with a hi-fi system while also really liking separates.  In the case of a streamer I'd liked the idea about the dac being integrated because the wiring and connections are probably done very well internally and I think they are in this case, the chips used were quite good and were wired very well which is really important.

Now I don't have to torment myself with dac interconnects and need to consider a new separate dac all the time.  And there are so many to pick from.

And it has a separate power box which is a good thing.  And it's really aerodynamic which is really cool too.

I still have my blue sound sitting in a box and the chord dac is also sitting in a box. Fortunately they're not very big to store away.  

I took a less financially “lossy” route. 
I found a used Lumin D2, and have been quite happy since. 

Although I've posted this before, this is an apt thread for it. I don't really stream except playing my downloads from my computer and Apple Music on the computer. I have an ifi pro idsd dac I got used and added an Iris DDC (though I'm selling the Iris to upgrade to a Hermes). 

I got a T+A Dac 200 in trade for an integrated amp I was trying to sell and then added the Aurender N200 streamer after reading all the comments about how good streamers and the Aurender were. 

I was able to set up both systems to quickly A/B them because I agree and know that audio memory is very short. So I could almost immediately switch between the 2 systems. 

The Aurender/T+A set up had slightly a slightly larger soundstage and a bit of a digital glare. This is a system that was essentially $12k more expensive than my usual system. I switched back and forth numerous times and could barely hear any differences other than what was mentioned above. I sold both the Aurender and the T+A taking a bit of a bath but regaining most of my ill-spent funds. 

The Iris DDC added much more to my system than the Aurender or T+A. I am going to try out a PS Audio Directstream Mk1 that has been slightly upgraded to see if it is better than the ifi plus I can try an I2s connection to see if that is significant. The Iris had to go only because it's I2s connection is not compatible with the Directstream thus the reason for the Hermes which can adjust the pin setting and the Iris can't. 

So right now, you can say I am a streamer skeptic. Plus I didn't hear any added benefits with using Qobuz or Tidal which I did a trial of each. 

I used to be a big doubter that there could possibly be any difference that you are actually hearing rather than just perceiving due to expectations, subconscious or otherwise. I now am convinced due to first hand experience that things can get weird and go wrong in all sorts of unexpected ways. Technically nothing should be perceptually changing, but that assumes everything is working correctly. Some faults are so obvious nobody would deny it if they heard them. For instance, if I use Apple Music to stream from their service, every song has a short stutter near the start of the song. This is a well known issue that Apple doesn’t seem to be able to fix, and it isn’t the same for everybody. Somewhere there’s a complex wrench in the works. Something ain’t right, and it makes you wonder what else ain’t right that might be more subtle and intermittent, thus not always showing up on single measurement tests. If I rip my own discs and don’t stream, it never stutters. Other streaming services never stutter.

I’ve got a device that runs optical audio in to my computer via a USB converter. It is unstable, and sometimes it does really weird things. If it gets bad enough, the music just stops.

On my Blu-Ray player I sometimes get audible and visible static. Just touching the HDMI cable will usually stop it for a while. Bits is bits, but they don’t always show up at the right time.

So, maybe you’re not hearing much because there wasn’t much going wrong in your particular system in the first place. I’m assuming here that in many lower end systems, like mine, many subtle things might be going wrong that happen to much less of a degree on better systems like yours, especially if you happen to have good synergy between your components, even if they aren’t at the very highest class levels available.

I'm not sure my experience will be all that helpful but here goes. I have three Auralic streamers in three different systems: an Aries Mini plus S-Booster LPS, an original Altair, and an Altair G2.1. These were purchased over the course of some seven years, with the G2.1 arriving a month ago. (Auralic was blowing them out at nearly 60% off, no tax or shipping, to make room for the G2.2, and I couldn't resist.) I only stream Tidal, not files. In  my main system I listen almost exclusively to vinyl (two turntables, four tonearms, three phono stages). Each step up the Auralic line has yielded obvious improvements in SQ. Stark, not subtle. Just to be sure, I compared them in my main system. So IME, at least with offerings from a single manufacturer, the differences are clear. Whether differences would be audible between manufacturers at the same level of component I do not know. I will say the G2.1 sounds remarkably good, even next to my high-end vinyl rigs.

OP - I, too, was prepared to climb the upgrade ladder on streamers but have creased, at least for the time being.  I went from a Bluesound Node 2i using its DAC, to using the Node 2i as a streamer but a Cambridge CXA81 DAC, to a miniDSP SHD streamer/DAC, then back to a Bluesound Node 130 with a LPS into a modded Peachtree Gan1 power DAC.  Now I have implemented the Bacch4Mac and Bacch ORC system; I simply use the Qobuz app on the Bacch's Mac mini fed into an RME interface and then to the Gan1.  All along the streamer is fed by Ethernet via an English 8 switch.  To be sure, I haven't compared SQ with any of these configurations to one with a high-end streamer like Aurender or Innuous.  For me, so far at least, the big gains in SQ were in the DAC, the Bacch processing system and the power amps, definitely not the streamers.  In fact, what I found was that the big difference in streamers came from their user interfaces, not SQ.   I really enjoy the music now and have no desire to upgrade anything.  Best of luck.

I’ve gone through a half dozen streamers topping out at a $6500 Aurender. I found it makes very little difference depending on the DAC you are using.  For me once I got a very good DAC I found the differences between streamers to be almost negligible. At this point I now recommend to friends to find a streamer you like the software/App for. That to me is the deciding factor now, ease of use and sound cataloging.  

I did a test using red book digital quality (CD) through my Aurender and Apple TV box both directly from tidal both into the same DAC, surprisingly the Apple TV box was not significantly worse than the Aurender, actually very little difference. Granted at red book not hi rez formats. My optimized PC is actually slightly better/same as the Aurender, and I’ve since sold the Aurender. I won’t be wasting big $’s on streamers anymore.

My experience with streamers have all been custom builds, learning from 'expert' members over at Audiophlestyle forum. Each has had unique sound qualities that were easily heard. Over time I discovered power supplies most greatly impacted sound quality, quality of parts populating motherboards, operating systems and music players also affect sound quality in my setups.

Optimized interfaces also critically important for both streamers and dacs, some of these streamers not optimizing usb and I2S interfaces to their fullest, this means highest quality clocking and power supplies for those clocks. Many are adding a second streamer to these off the shelf streamers. These second streamers act as endpoints only, therefore, they contain motherboards and operating systems designed for a single purpose, which is to act as that endpoint, point of this is to minimize self generated noise, provide lowest possible latency. The second purpose of these steamers is to provide a more optimal usb or I2S interface, this means better clocks and power supplies than provided by many off the shelf streamers.

Unless all these off the shelf streamers using very similar power supplies, parts I find it hard to believe they all sound that similar. But then perhaps they do, evidence of that in this thread. I look at something like the highest end Taiko servers,  based on reviews these are game changers. Streamers at this level take every concern I've listed above, and there are more, and concentrate a level of engineering such that self generated noise and immunity from external noise creates a nearly unlimited noise floor which means higher resolution. They also have proprietary and optimal interfaces which surpass commonly found usb and I2S interfaces.

I'm using an ASUS gaming computer running Windows 7 and Qobuz for streaming. It's going into a Berkeley Alpha USB which is connected to a Berkeley Reference MK II DAC. I also have a Jay's Audio CD3 Mk III transport hooked up to the same DAC.

I have compared streamed files from Qobuz to the corresponding CD at least a dozen times (being careful they are the same version) and I can't hear a difference. If the computer is adding noise or some other kind of distortion to the music I can't hear it. I am skeptical that a streamed file would sound better than the corresponding CD played though a state of the art transport into the same DAC. If they sound the same I think that's about as good as it's going to get.

If someone has a streamer and a CD transport I suggest using the CD as a control. When you just disconnect one streamer and hook up another one it's very difficult to accurately compare them. When you use a control, such as a CD, you can remove some of the possible expectation bias that we all have.

You are not alone.  I used a Node with an upgraded LPS, a good USB cable going to a Pontus ll for years. The switch to a N200 was a definite improvement, but not anything earth shattering. Someday I might get a different DAC, but I’m really in no hurry.

+! @akg_ca, It really is a matter of what is good enough and to what lengths one is willing to go to get there.  There is a BIG difference in everything, and everything matters.  No one can tell another what is good enough or what is worth it.  That is the beauty of our Audiophile world..excellence is obtainable, yet there are levels of satisfaction for everyone.

@dxbwineguy  Thank you for the description  I'm terrible about describing the sound of my system.  I'm often inclined to say "it just sounds right", but that's not a very good description.

I have an Innuos streamer that I like.  SQ is excellent and it has a large buffer, so music doesn't stop if my internet drops (which it seems to do quite often).  It also has a cd ripper which I do use.  And the Sense app is excellent.  I did notice an improvement in SQ over my Node 130, but I didn't spend serious time doing a comparison.  I'm happy with the Innuos for it's SQ and features. 

@sls883 I have never been good at describing music- but will try. The WiiM was much clearer, the Hegel was depressed. The WiiM sounded fuller, kind of blooming (not booming).

I forgot to mention earlier- the Hegel of course was hard wired via Ethernet. The WiiM was on WiFi. Ideally the latter should have degraded the performance as compared to an Ethernet connected device but I guess it didn’t. I didn’t even think about this till now.

My overall view of A/B comparisons is a few years when we used to buy TVs and the choice in the showroom was between LCD and Plasma. At that moment LCD would outshine the plasma TV- but if you got the plasma home, which I did, it looked great. I know I might get dissed for saying this - for sure some components provide phenomenal differences but eventually I think what matters is what makes you happy. I have an Eversolo streamer, a WiiM Mini and a WiiM Pro Plus. Am happy. Have always debated about getting an Aurender or a Lumin or something else but eventually decide against it - because the difference for me will be in the first few minutes and then everything sounds the same - to me. Apologies for long post.

@dxbwineguy Interesting results, but your test did show that there are difference in streamer SQ.  Can you describe the differences and why everyone preferred the WiiM?

I recently bought a WiiM Pro for one of my sons and I just ordered a WiiM Ultra as a Christmas present for another son.  I've never tried inserting one into my system.  Might be interesting to try it.  

OP, to get the most out of your digital, you have to optimize the whole chain from the wall to the DAC. This includes going to a fiber optic connection which can be a bit of work. The server/streamer to get is the Taiko if cost isn't a consideration, almost as good is the Playback Designs stack which would entail replacing your current DAC. A lower cost alternative would be the Lumin U1 and L2 streamer/file server stack which is what I use.

I’m not going to doubt what you heared but…

Some of the things that can mask the difference between components and cables in a system:

1. Room acoustics

2. Speaker positioning

3. Objects like large furniture between listening chair and speakers

4. Excessive bass

Something to consider when you’re comparing components. But you said you hear large differences in phono stages so perhaps your system is streamer/transport agnostic. Have you tried a CD transport compared to your streamer?

Ten years ago I bought the original blue sound vault. At first it was good enough. Over time I went back to vinyl. About a year ago i started to convert my system to optimize streaming. I bought a holo spring 3 level 2 dac and used the vault as a  streamer. The improvement was more than subtle but not huge. When the new blue sound nodes came out I bought the "older" n130 node and used it as a streamer. The improvement in sound quality surprised me. Timber, tone, depth and separation of instruments improved. I thought the node/holo spring 3 combination sounded very good but a tad warm. I bought an innuos pulse. The change in sound was subtle but important to me. There was more sparkle to cymbals and a little more sizzle to the high notes of a French horn. What surprised me was that I could  now understand what more of what the singers were saying. Not a big difference, but enough to keep the innuos. By the way the innuos app is very usable for someone who does not like computers. 

I had two great sounding systems in my house. The main system was substantially more expensive than my second system. My main is using an Auralic g2.1 (G1.1 at the time of comparison) while my second system was using a Node. 
here’s the odd thing to me… when I put the node into my main system the SQ notably decreased, as in immediately evident. However when I put the auralic into my second system I didn’t notice really any bump in SQ at all. It sounded great with both and I never had any desire to upgrade the node there. I wish I could pinpoint why this is, but it just is. I’m happy with each in their respective places.

You have a broad spectrum of replies that reflects the following homilies

”Price is what you psy,…Value is what you get”….. and … “One-size does not fit all…”

MT EXPERIENCE

Visit your fave bricks and mortar audio dealer and do a bake-off audition between a budget unit ( say BLUESOUND); and a high-end build streamer/dac.

Assuming you have the requisite resolution capabilities with a full high-end audio system, the step-up unit audio performance will not be insignificant.

Ethernet cables also matter..Direst Ethernet cable from router to your streamer/dac connection is always a step-up from wireless. Upgrades to premium cables with silver over copper construction and properly insulated sheathing with Telegartner connectors do matter .

Quality build linear power supplies (internal or external) are another big-time performance uptick.

You do get what you pay for. The DAC and the Streamer sections both need premium design and build quality … and that is a function of price too. Many believe that the secret to a good DAC lies in just choosing a “high-end” converter chip. But,,,,we know that the essence of the musicality also resides in the line signal processing stages, the power supplies (transformers, filtering, regulation,… ), the digital signal processing before conversion, the quality of the key components: clocks, transistors, capacitors, op amp upgrades etc.

TAKEAWAY

Starting out in the digital ,streaming world , it’s frequently a fork in the road pathway between an option that is “ good” versus “ good enough” . There is a marked-difference.

Just buying blindly and hoping is poor…. Hoping is not a strategy for a better option. Budgets are usually in tension with best wish lists that may invoke compromises.

I think one should just be happy with whatever sounds good. It doesn’t matter if one has a $500 streamer or $5000 streamer. And that applies to speakers and other equipment. Enjoy the music and you are not crazy.

You’re not crazy.  The sonic differences in upgrades become more subtle once you have high quality components in my experience.  I have moved from integrated components to separates over the years.  The biggest differences were in the speakers, DACs, streamers, and CD players.  The source and end point components.  Less with amps and preamps in my experience.  I moved from a Blusound Node N130 as a streamer to an Innuos Zen Mk3.  I noticed a difference.  Beyond a quieter background I found it stayed connected to my wi-fi better.  I use a cable from my router directly into the unit.  I have my equipment setup in such a way that I can A/B test when I try new components.  If I don’t hear a noticeable difference I return the new and more expensive gear as you did.  Trust your ears.  

In my experience it’s all about system dependency. Personally I have found a significant positive difference with Aurender N20 and Grimm. Several others didn’t make an impact to justify the additional price vs my NUC i7. Even if the Aurender and Grimm made a significant difference, I didn’t feel that being big enough and decided to stay with NUC and rather add a Farad 3 with Shunyata power cable. I’m happy this way and I don’t feel the need to add another expensive box. 

Only last week, at a friend’s house we did a comparison between the streamer of a Hegel H590 vs a WiiM Pro Plus streamer. The WiiM was fed into to the Hegel via Optical and Coax at different points. The DAC used for all three instances was the Hegel’s. 
We also requested his wife- who likes to listen to music but is not fussed about the equipment at all- to give her opinion as to what sounded “better” to her. She couldn’t see which component was being used- not in her line of sight.

All three of us voted the WiiM as easily besting the Hegel’s streamer. We were very surprised. On coming back home (to Dubai, from NY where this took place), I bought a WiiM Pro Plus.

This hobby should be about finding the system that provides you with the upmost musical experience, not what others, whether they are professional reviewers, hobbyists, or friends, think or say. Too often this hobby is not.  So do not create stress for yourself regardless of whether others tell you they can or cannot discern differences between streamers.  It appears you have been diligent, exploring a number of excellent component streamers and reaching a conclusion on the one that satisfies you.  The fact that your choice is a lower cost option, or is published as not best in class, is not significant.  What is significant is that it blows your hair back.  Be happy.  My recommendation is to use the savings to immerse yourself live musical performances and listen to the real “absolute sound”.

I have been on the streamer/DAC roller coaster for the past year.+  From Cambridge, to Bluesound, to Eversolo, to Schiit, to PS Audio.  I ended up with Innuos Pulse fed by the Innuos Phoenix USB with Cardas Clear cable and a Bricasti M1S2 DAC.  Each step I found some improvement (so did my son and wife).  The Innuos Sense App is also a pleasure to utilize.  I would consider upgrading in the Innuos family, but I have not been able to hear an improvement with their Statement or NG lines over the Pulse/Phoenix combo.  The M1S2 will probably be upgraded when Bricasti issues an upgrade in a few years.

One interesting thing I found in my quest to lower the cost of my gear was that my worst DAC, the Benchmark DAC3B sounds better with the $10 USB cable from Benchmark. I use the DAC3B a lot with a tube headphone amp. It sounds great.

I had 3 streamers in the house at the same time:

• Playback Designs STREAM-IF (used only SPDIF not the fibre)
• Sonore OpticalRendu
• Lumin X1

They all sounded different, and all sounded great. The fact that the STREAM-IF, using SPDIF, was comparable to the other 2 that used fibre optic shocked me. I think the STREAM-IF uses fibre internally. Whatever the case, all 3 were great but easy to tell that they produced a different sonic result.

I traded in the Lumin X1 for some end game speakers.

I sold the STREAM-IF because I realized that I was never going to spend $24k to buy the Playback Designs Dream DAC after I bought the under $3k Schitt Yggi+ OG DAC. The STREAM-IF hooks up to the Dream DAC via a proprietary streaming fibre link (which I never tested).

I now have 3 Sonore OpticalRendu’s (the oldest version) and I am not looking at any new streaming product. I will use the Rendu until they each die.

BTW - the OpticalRendu’s are going for some low used prices these days.

You're not crazy. I have a $2400 streamer and a $500 fed into the same DAC so I can instantly AB and I'm struggling to hear a difference. Or I believe I hear one, only to go back and explore again and poof! The difference is gone or subtle at best.

But I keep trying. I realize we trade in nuance and subtlety in this hobby. If I got a subtle but definite improvement, I would pay good money for it. My system is highly resolving so every bit matters (to me). 

Thanks everyone for the reassurance as I feel this digital world is a bit unique in how we can build a great system

I know @ghdprentice has had a different experience as I have read his posts of how his system improved with each advancement of streamer

someone mentioned pianos and how they can pose challenges for systems in their reproduction of the natural sound.  I mainly listen to classic rock, jazz, r&b and blues so maybe my music taste is also not as demanding.

there is also no one size fits all or even one shoe works for all

on a side note, my favorite 2nd cousin(same age)brought her husband and 3 kids to my home for thanksgiving and her oldest daughter(20)was blown away at my 1500 records and I am excited to put together a bundle of records for her as a Christmas gift...my heart will always be in the groove

One thing to consider is that audio memory is fleeting.  Unless you are able to switch quickly from one set up to another and have them be volume matched to within 0.1dB, making a comparison with any veritas is difficult at best unless maybe you are playing a specific snippet of music that has something in it that you are noticing for comparison, say the sound of a kick drum or a flute or whatever. 

Some reviewers, for what it is worth, which might not be much, do say the new Node Nano is extremely good for its price, besting the Node X, and if you are using it to feed an external DAC, it simply might be doing a pretty darn good job of it. 

Ultimately, I think you may have reached a point of diminishing returns. Time to just enjoy the music and be happy, especially with that AR DAC 9.  Your room and of course your speakers are probably making far more difference than the difference between streamers fed into an external DAC, especially if the external DAC is doing its own reclocking. 

Streamers are simply specialized computers. They rely on hardware and programming. So differences in streamer sound can exist but the differences when present are often hard to detect without direct a/b tests.

For example, I did a/b comparison of sound between Plexamp and “vanilla” Roon streaming software prior to switching to Roon and the difference in a/b testing was clear and profound.

But even Roon’s sound can vary to a very great extent when DSP functionality in Roon is applied.

Digital streaming is a whole new world when it comes to sound quality. Pretty much anything is possible. The good news it’s not that hard to do well and most even decent quality streamers do a good job making good sound more widely available to more than ever before. But streaming is like beautiful women. There are all kinds and no two are often exactly alike.

OP,

I know we have discussed this off line. Sounds like you have a great opportunity to get the sound you are looking for at a very low cost. I wish that was true for me. So, just exploring until you find what really pleases you sounds like a sound strategy for you.  

@dhite71 

By no means, I expect or suggesting otherwise for you to start over. I was just sharing my perspective and experience with two iconic brands. Personally, I like to diversify and appreciate the nuances each component brings to the game so I sold off entire ARC system (Ref 6, DAC9 and GS150).

Coming back to your post, I recently sold off a $25K streamer in favor of a built-in Roon endpoint + Core + DAC. I couldn’t justify its existence in a direct shoot-out. Instead, I decided to focus on improving the signal quality ahead of streamer that has netted much bigger delta. There are few threads here that outlines improving wired signal to your streamer which is much likely to improve overall SQ of your existing streamer. If I were you, that’s where I should focus on instead of chasing down uber-expensive streamers. Cheers! 

@lalitk 

I would not have ever thought that a single mfg system would be less revealing for the source components.  Since I got serious about my system about 6 years ago I have had an all ARC system.  I do appreciate major differences with phono cartridges...it is almost as big of a change as speakers.  I have a local audio friend with an Auralic streamer that has agreed to bring over to compare.  I like buying used gear at a reasonable price and living with it for a while and then selling if not impressed.  I need to get more familiar with what else is out there in the streamer world and try another.  It's fun and maddening at times...but mostly fun :)

To your strategy of abandoning the house sound of certain mfg, I cannot fathom the idea of starting over with everything.  Overall I love the sound my system generates but am always looking for that bump upward

@dhite71

I can relate to your experience with ARC components. Your observations aligns with the design philosophy of brands like Audio Research (ARC) and McIntosh. Both have a “house sound” that tends to smooth over external influences, ensuring system synergy and a cohesive listening experience.

The ARC DAC9, for instance is praised for its refined, slightly warm, and musical sound, but it doesn’t let the personality of upstream components—like streamers—dominate the overall presentation. This can indeed feel like a blessing if you’re aiming for consistency, as it prevents potential mismatches or overly analytical sources from disrupting ARC’s characteristic musicality. On the flip side, it might feel limiting or frustrating at times if you’re trying to extract the unique tonal nuances of a particularly expressive streamer.

Similarly, McIntosh gear is known for its “house sound,” which is often described as lush, smooth, and forgiving. This sonic signature can veil or homogenize certain upstream subtleties, but it contributes to the brand’s famous ease of listening and fatigue-free performance.

In both cases, it’s a testament to these brands’ commitment to their sonic identity, ensuring that the listener always gets an experience that aligns with their philosophy, regardless of what sits in the signal chain before them.

Would you say this neutrality has been a benefit in your system, or do you miss the opportunity to experiment with a more “colorful” front end?

I experimented with both brands for extended period of time and gave them up for the reasons outlined above :-)

Speaking in generalities, the differences between most audiophile components are subtle.  Listeners can a make a big deal about those differences, but they are still subtle.  Good sound doesn't have to be very expensive.  Great sound is a different story.

No, you’re not insane. Differences with digital equipment can be quite subtle. I find the recording used to hear differences can be important. A good solo piano recording often helps to reveal differences. And with a streamer, it may not be in the obvious parameters like tone or bass quantity, but in less obvious things like image solidity, stability, or noise floor. Sometimes these things can be heard in the space in between notes. If you have really busy music, they may not be apparent. If your room is not treated, they may not be apparent. Etc., etc…. For my needs, I decided a long time ago to look at features needed (e.g., inputs, outputs, storage, Roon ready, etc.) in these devices over alleged sonic advantages.

Right now I happen to have a $400 streamer I bought for other purposes.  Using its SPDIF output with a $10 cable into my DAC sounds about the same as the main streamer, which is optically isolated, uses much more expensive cables, an outboard power supply, and isolation devices.  There is a difference but it is very subtle.  

I never thought about the music format/quality

100% of my streaming is done from Qobuz

I use a separate server and streamer, and I noticed quite an improvement when I added the Sonore Signature Rendu SE Deluxe (optical) to perform streamer-only duties (Roon endpoint) in my system. On the server side (used to store digital music files and handle Roon core), I could hear no meaningful difference between servers from Antipodes, Mojo Audio, and my current sonicTransporter i9 (Gen 4). That may be different for listeners who challenge their servers with higher level DSD material.

The funny thing is that when I had the Node 2i, I got a few different coax cables and could distinguish a big difference between the 25yo Audioquest cable I had compared to the newer AQ Carbon I switched to.  

For this set up I got a new AQ Cinnamon coax.  I also tried a Carbon XLR cable with the W20 and did not appreciate anything between that and the Cinnamon.

I heard more between the A20 and the Bartok....guessing that was more comparing DACs than their respective streaming.