Difference in sound using different carts when digitizing vinyl record?

To answer your question, "yes"!

Dear Solypsa, I'm with you.

the better the table and system the more differences you will here.

I currently have two turntables and a handful of cartridges.  Both 'tables are decent (both under $2k) and the cartridges vary in price, but all under $1k.  The cartridges present all different kinds of flavors.  I can barely tell the difference between the 'tables.  The 'table and arm combinations do have different characteristics, and the differences come in to play mostly with compliance and resonance issues (my Denon 103 needs a different combo than, for example, my Share v-15).  So yes, of course, different carts will yield different sonic results when used to create digital tracks.

And you can rest assured my experience is adequate to properly evaluate a stereo playback system.  I would be suspect of somebody who has purchased over 100 turntables and still can't seem to figure it out!

I feel like a device like the sugar cube will clean up the sound but at the expense of the true analog character.

Chakster, from your perspective, I agree but you still need that turntable and Tonearm to thoroughly enjoy those 30 cartridges.

I bought a Sweetvinyl Sugarcube SC-1. I am wondering because of the conversion to A to D and then again D to A, it there a possibility that the sound differences from different carts are not so significant anymore?

OP is asking a different question, which has only been touched on in the discussion. A simple test for the OP is to play one of their better records with and without the sugarcube inserted. Does the sound quality change ? In what way? Does the sugarcube obscure or gray-wash detail and microdynamics? If yes then you have your answer.

People swap cartridges more often, not a turntables @tzh21y  
We have more cartridges than turntables anyway, most of us
Some people have many tonearms, but not as much as the cartridges
This common practice is a proof of the importance of the cartridge (matched to a tonearm) as the main factor in analog. I know audiophiles with 1-5 turntables maximum, but with 30+ cartridges.    

 

I would say that the most important is the Table, then the tonearm, then the cartridge.  However, I would say that the cartridge and stylus do influence the sound tremendously, more so than the table and the tonearm, but you have to have that table and tonearm first or you will never know the potential of any given cartridge. I myself feel that in my modest system, the Lyra Delos is about as much cartridge as I will ever need.  I do not have a 200K+ system where a better cartridge than that will make that much of a difference. diminishing returns to say the least. 

Ok, as promised, here are the files:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/opg3udisptsys73/Dire%20Straits%20Koetsu.flac?dl=0
and:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cj8asa4xolyvxd8/Dire%20Straits%20Decca.flac?dl=0

The first file is Dire Straits´ Walk of Life played through a Koetsu Coralstone/SAEC WE 308 L combo, the second one is the same song through a Decca London Reference/SME V . Phono preamp is a Manley Steelhead. Both files have been normalised to -1 dB to nullify volume differences because of differences in output voltage of the two cartridges.
The files were digitised at 16 bits 44.1 kHz. ADC is a Metric Halo ULN8.

To the OP: As you apparently realized mid way through the barrage of responses, your question is not about whether digital recordings of one cartridge vs another would reveal differences between them.  Your question is really specific to the Sugarcube and any other component that does what it does. (I am not aware of any other.)  As I now understand it, your question is whether inserting the Sugarcube  in between your phono and linestages would obscure the differences between two different phono cartridges.  Since no audio device is perfect, and since even very modern state of the art D2A and A2D is only near to perfect, I would guess that the Sugarcube MUST not be perfect.  It must alter the signal in some small ways.  Whether you can hear the difference, only you and other owners of the Sugarcube can say.

Incidentally, I own about 2500 LPs.  Nearly half of them were purchased "used", but I have very stringent criteria for purchasing used LPs when it comes to the condition of the playing surface.  I also clean my newly purchased used LPs on a VPI HW17 RCM. (I have not advanced to Ultrasonic yet.)  I just clean them once, after purchase, and maybe never again. Having taken those precautions, it is very rare for me to hear a tick or a pop during playback.  Some older LPs do have a faint "white noise" background, but that is either tape hiss from the original process or surface noise from prior use or imbedded dirt that just won't go away.  I can tune that out.  So, I'm wondering how bad could be your LPs that you feel you need the Sugarcube?  I am guessing that their customers would be mostly younger newbies to vinyl who were nurtured on digital and have therefore become highly sensitized to the occasional (or rare) tick or pop. That's no slur on you;  I only wish I were still young enough to fall into that category.

But i meant Digital Analog Converter (DAC) to listen to the digital files in good quality
and Analog to Digital Converter to digitalize records, yes

chakster,

"To digitalise vinyl the cartridge is the most important thing first, then the DAC."

I think you mistyped. Did you mean ADC?

I just did it two days ago for a few records (3) that had been digitalized into DSD with Ortofon 2M Red and now with Soundsmith Othello. There is a difference in the sound when playing them straight and there is a difference in sound when playing those two DSD copies. I am not sure if the level of the difference is the same in both cases, but it does exist.

Is the machine removing your pops and clicks influencing your sound by more than just removing pops and clicks?

@orpheus10 the staircase effect is the result of trying to approximate the analog signal from the turntable into a fixed scale of values that is used when digitizing. That approximation, or quantization, while good enough for some, is still only an approximation that can never faithfully reproduce the infinite number of values that only analog can convey.

If I could use an analogy, consider two ways of drawing a half circle with the flat side facing down.  The first is with a compas, which is pretty much foolproof at making a nice, smooth, linear curve. But what if we had to represent that circle in terms of taking measurements vertically (quantize) in the Y axis, as we move along the X axis? Now, what if we had to map (sample) that curve only in finite increments along the X (time) axis? That sampling process gets only one measure for each whole number value along the X axis, (1,2,3,4,5...). Take those points and plot them as a bar chart. You might say that half circle all of a sudden looks pretty poor. You might say that half circle resembles a staircase as you proceed from 9 o’clock to 12 o’clock and then continue from 12 o’clock to 3 o’clock. That’s what happens when an analog signal is digitized. You can double the rate of sampling to reduce the incremental step sizes, but It still is an approximation that comes with harmonic artifacts as unwelcome passengers.

The choice is yours: accept the obviously noticeable inherent flaws of the quantization process at low sample rates of 44kHz or even 96kHz or make the jump to high resolution digital (DSD) at 192kHz or stay in the analog domain. 
 

@terry you can set up any cartridge perfectly on an average tonearm like Technics Sl1200mkII stock toneam with total cost of $150 (imagine), if you have $30 headshell with azimuth and overhand it's not a big deal to set up a cartridge. An overhand gauge (52mm) supplied by tonearm manufacturer, you can not go wrong with the settings, and it's $150 tonearm! Not a $1500 or $5000 tonearm. These type of cheap turntables works fine for 22 years for me, no problem with bearings or anything technically (definitely not the best turntable, just basic DD anyone can buy). I have much more expensive turntables and tonearms, but on cheap Technics (which is under $500 on used market) the cartridge is far more important that anything else! This is FIRST thing that user should change before changing anything else searching for a good sound from an average turntable with cheap tonearm.  

Many times i've brought some serious cartridge to a friends who owns SL1200mkII. They could not recognize it's still the same turntable, because the sound quality was like day and night even with cheap phono stages, even in the headsphones whatever. Cartridge is number one in analog chain, turntable just rotate the record.  

I've tried everything from $200 vintage MM to $5000 modern ZYX MC cartridge on Technics SL1200mkII just for curiosity. If a cartridge is well matched to whatever tonearm, then it is the biggest upgrade ever... Toneam, turntable, phono stage, some tweaks or even completely different turntable after all is next step.   

Yes, you will hear a difference, but when you A-B the two digital files, you will be surprised at how minimal the differences are, and how difficult it is to determine which is "better".

We can argue forever. But all three are important, plus isolation and plus tonearm cable.

Sleepwalker, what holds the stylus in place? How accurately can it be set? Will it hold its settings?

Sleepwalker

"The staircase effect"?


Since I don't understand, I went to my "Modern Dictionary of Electronics" where I discovered a "Staircase Generator" produces an output wave form that has the appearance of a staircase.

"Staircase signal" a wave form consisting of discrete steps resembling a staircase.

I don't see how either one of those is applicable; could you clarify this "Staircase effect".


In reality, I have a computer expert with a degree in computer science who I consult. When I ask him for an explanation, he gives me that look that says; "You wouldn't understand it even after I explained it; what is it you want to accomplish?"

Once the signal enters the computer domain, it has no left and right channel, did you know that?

@inna nope, stylus is the only thing that reads the groove. That has infinitely more impact on sound quality than anything else that is not in the chain of custody of the signal. 

Great. We have two analog camps. They might seem uncompromising but are still much closer to each other than to a digital/whatever camp.
Chakster, turntable more than touches the record, that’s the beginning of playback.

Yeah, me too, i know what i’m talking about.
If anyone has a reference tonearm it’s easy to compare two well matched, but different cartridge on it to make sure the better the cartridge - the better the sound, end of the story. Finally, that's the only component that touch the record. 

The OP asking for cartridges in this thread, not for the tonearms after all. To digitalise vinyl the cartridge is the most important thing first, then the DAC.  

Well, when you’ve owned over 100 tables, 75 arms, and hundreds of cartridges over a 60 year span then we can talk. 

I forgot more than you’ve learned. 

I won’t debate you further. It’s obviously wasted time. 

@wcfeil 

You're a rookie 

Yes, i am a rookie, this is my amateur system with SP-10mk2 + Reed 3p + Glanz 61 and here is some more turntables and arms that i'm using. I have enough tonearms and carts to say that the cartridge is more important (but i don't use shite tonearms, maybe this is my problem). But my collection of cartridges is pretty big to say how important is the cartridge and how big is the difference between an average cart and a decent cart. In my opinion it is such a stupid idea to use bad cartridge on a good tonearm to believe that the arm is more important. However, i've never said that a good cartridge is the most expensive one (same about tonearms or turntables). Good luck    

@chakster I agree with you. The biggest limiting factor is the cartridge and stylus profile. My experience with going from a very good low end MM cartridge with bonded elliptical stylus (AT95E) to a mid-range MM cartridge with nude mount line contact stylus Audio-Technica (VM540ML) on the SL-1700mk2 (same motor/platter/tonearm, but vastly superior chassis) is exactly as you stated.

@orpheus10 the notion that a twice processed signal has in your words “absolutely no difference” after being sampled, digitized, stored and the converted back to analog makes no sense at all. How do you account for the staircase effect?

@wcfeil

In fact an excellent table/arm and average cartridge will outperform an average table/arm and excellent cartridge all day long.

@inna

Yes, table itself is the most important element, then arm, then cartridge. And the interaction between them all, of course.

No way. Your arm or turntable has nothing to do with vinyl grooves. If you can not get the information from the vinyl groove (with a decent stylus profile and cartridge generator) then better tonearm or better turntable motor will not help you at all.

And if you already have a decent turntable and tonearm then change an average cartridge to a decent cartridge and the difference will be more than EVER before. Cartridge is the most important, but i’m not talking about some awful turntables here or plastic tonearms. Surely the arm and turntable is also important, but not as much as the cartridge. As an average turntable we can speak about old Technics SL1200mkII for example (with it’s average $150 tonearm), but put a decent cartridge on this turntable and it will be the biggest improvement.

I have no idea where people on the "analog" forum were when so much conversation in regard to computer analog interface was going on in the PC forum.

Now that so many "analogers" are in the stone age in regard to computer analog interface, they complain of bad results; no wonder.

There is absolutely no difference between playing a record, and hearing it played back from my hard drive to outboard DAC to Preamp to amp to speakers.

That's because cards in my PC have been upgraded.  That is the only way I listen; records are only handled when I record them to reel or hard drive.

I ripped a few LP's years ago when I got back into vinyl, just to see how they would sound. Not bad, I still have them on my server.  After a cartridge up-grade, I re-ripping one and never did vinyl again. Yes, it sounded better but I am not going to do this every time I change cartridges.  I have ripped my small collection DVD-A and SACD.  Someday my Multi Format Digital Disc Players is going to die and pretty soon disc drives in home computers will the things of the past.  I'll have at least two TT's for the remainder of my life.

Yes, table itself is the most important element, then arm, then cartridge. And the interaction between them all, of course.
I have $4k table/arm and $500 MM cartridge - sounds very good.
Why would you want to convert analog into digital ? In a sense, you would be doing digital mastering. I have a few records like that - none sounds like analog.
Michael Fremer has his own agenda, an excellent one, to keep vinyl alive no matter what. He is also a businessman.
So, to answer your question - yes and no. You will hear differences between cartridges but it won't matter - you will spoil the recordings in any case.

Confused, if you're going to use your rig like I use mine, which is to down load to hard drive, and play back utilizing your PC, I recommend that you ask questions on the PC forum.

There are some cards in your PC that need to be upgraded, and an outboard DAC will make a tremendous improvement. PC upgrades are not as expensive as analog upgrades for equivalent improvement.

@wcfeil ?

If you apply “average” equally in the discussion, my assertion remains correct.

Thanks for the opportunity to clarify my thoughts. 

@wcfeil, the definition of “average” is subjective. Would you consider an average cartridge a $60 AT95E or a $260 Grado Gold 2 or $750 Ortofon 2M Black, or a $1200 Sumiko Blackbird?

Similarly for turntables and arms, what would you offer as “average”?

My belief is that the law of diminishing returns applies here like in most other areas of hifi. While exceptional results could be obtained for a total outlay of $10K, the sweet spot is probably around $1.5~$2K. 

>>Cartridge is the most important part in analog chain<<

That is incorrect. The table/arm combination is far more important. 

In fact an excellent table/arm and average cartridge will outperform an average table/arm and excellent cartridge all day long. 

In one word, "Absolutely". I down load my vinyl collection to hard drive, and after substantially upgrading the analog, it’s necessary to do it all over again if I want to hear the improvements.

My turntable is in the basement on a concrete floor where all recording is done; be it reel to reel or down loading to hard drive; playback is reel, or PC.  

I have done this, and there are audible differences. I will try to upload some files to my dropbox-account later today. They will be 16/44.1 recordings, as there is no point in uploading 24/96-files if people  aren´t able to play them. 

The answer to the OP´s question is yes, of course you will hear a difference if the two cartridges sound different.
IMO you will hear a difference even when recorded at 16/44.1, and from my own experience you certainly hear it when recorded at 24/96.

Thanks everyone for responding.

Just to clarify - I am not digitizing records as such. I have no desire to do so at this moment.

I am using a Sweetvinyl Sugarcube SC-1, a device that goes between the phonostage and preamp. It removes clicks and pops in real time while the record is being played. The Sugarcube does an excellent job in removing the clicks and pops. It does that by 1) converting the analog signal coming from the phonostage to digital signal, 2) using software to remove clicks and pops and 3) finally convert back the digital signal to analog which then goes out to the preamp. There is no recording capability with the SC-1. I purchased the device after reading several favorable reviews by users and reviewers including Michael Fremer.

I was curious to know because of these conversions happening in real time, whether the sound difference that we typically hear when we change cartridges would be still there. Now @cleeds mentioned in his response that would be the case. I hope that at some point in near future I will be able to verify it myself.  

Michael Fremer is betting that the answer to your question is "yes".  He's been doing this for the past few years and posting the tracks on his website.  Most who have auditioned the tracks seem to hear differences among and between cartridges.  At least they are not afraid to vote for one cartridge over another.  Like sleepwalker says, if I were doing this for myself, I would want to use the highest resolution digital equipment possible.  Else it's possible that one would hear differences but the differences would be misleading, because of the inferiority of the digital phase of the process.

sleepwalker65

With 44kHz sampling I doubt sound quality will be good enough to appreciate the capability of a true hifi cartridge.

In my system, 44.1 sampling is more than sufficient for a digital recording to reveal differences in phono cartridges.

With 44kHz sampling I doubt sound quality will be good enough to appreciate the capability of a true hifi cartridge. Your best return on investment will be from using a good, clean stylus on any reasonably capable cartridge (AT95E will do quite well for this pursuit), and clean records. 

If you took your digitizing platform up to DSD, the 192kHz sampling rate would be good enough to faithfully reproduce the sound quality of a true hifi cartridge. However, the investment in DSD is very steep, and the choices of equipment for consumer applications is limited. 

Definitely, there is a difference even in digital format

confuse_upgraditis

... if I digitize my vinyl record while the record is played using any cart (cart #1) and then again play and digitize the same record using a different cart (cart #2), am I going to hear any sound difference typically attributed to two different carts ...

If you hear a difference between the two cartridges prior to digitizing, you should absolutely be able to hear the same difference after you've digitized the LP.

Cartridge is the most important part in analog chain, your music is in the grooves on vinyl, bad cartridge can NOT extract all information from the grooves! It depends on the stylus profile first and overall cartridge design + phono stage. You will hear the difference between average cartridge and great cartridge. The worst scenario is when you digitalise vinyl with average cartridge, in this case you’d better buy high resolution digital file from the label directly. If you can not buy digital file from the label then you need some amazing cartridge to archive great digital copy from the vinyl (if the quality is important for you). But it’s also depends on your turntable, tonearm, DAC etc.

But if you will be comparing two bad cartridges you will not hear much difference between them.
So you need a great cartridge to understand what i'm talking about, hope some of the friends has it to borrow once, and then you will be disappointed about average/bad cartridges forever :) How you can live after that ?