Copper is warmer with better midrange defination silver has better high end defination usually.
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If one doesn’t honor the inherent directionality of wire and
cryogenically treat the wire then he cannot compete in today’s
marketplace. In fact he can’t compete in yesterday’s marketplace.
" I love science fiction and read it all the time. Today we regard the Mighty Wire. You know there is a correct way to run cables that is metal neutral to your speakers, right? Allow me GK to reveal the secret to you. You wash your clothes and then put them in the dryer where left to their own devices get wrinkly. I was looking at this one day and it dawned on me that just as you could put things in your dryer to stop this it could be done with speaker cables too. After a LOT of research I determined that if you made a clockwise air core coil of exactly 57.5" long out of 12g anything, then had a run of precisely 12" straight to a counterclockwise coil built just like the first one it took all the harmonic static out of the line. It was not the complete answer though as through further research I discovered that I was still left with sibilance and that cable cooking ended that. I have not tried many different coil winding sizes but I wonder if you were to wind a set tightly and put Precious Pebbles into the core of the coils how that would work? |
OP and grannyring and everyone else - thank you for the above discussions about cabling and it’s effect on sound quality. I feel like a fly on the wall listening in to an educational conversation. I appreciate the insights into audio quality. I am not independently wealthy and I need to spend wisely. I have done that with all of your help. Just a Thank You! Happy Listening |
Dogma is dogma, no matter the belief. If you think you are immune from visual bias, that is huge dogma. Some of us have done extensive testing over the years and accept our limitations, hence try to control our testing experiences. If someone claims there is inherent and immediate difference in cable direction in this thread, but claims in another thread that you need to let cables settle for days and hence that is why they don't really trust cable reviews ... what form of dogma is that? |
I don’t reckon optical cables have ever beaten copper or silver digital cables for sound quality. Which you have to admit is mighty curious. On the other hand I haven’t been paying much attention the past 30 years or so. Especially since I stopped using interconnects and digital cables completely about 3 years ago. |
Guys, I have just finished soldering some KLE Silver Harmony RCA to williewonka Advanced Helix Digital Cable Design and with just 2 hours of burn-in, they are sounding fantastic! Amazing clarity, vibrant sounding, excellent width and depth and a very quiet cable... Can’t wait to hear them after burn-in as they are published (KLE) to require 200+ hours. I’m expediting this and they are now back on my Audiodharma Cable cooker for the next 4 days and from there to my soundbar for a few more days to settle. Will follow back up in another 8-9 days on their progression. I’m also looking at trying a Pulsar Cu II digital Cable from Vh Audio with KLE Silver Harmony RCA as well. Wig |
https://www.in-akustik.de/en/cables-and-accessories/reference-selection/digital-cable/reference-digital-2404-air-007187110/ It would be interesting to put it up against this. |
If there is a audible difference between 2 digital cables it simply means that one of them is not doing it's "job" (could also be your devices). There is no "warmer sound", "more depth" , "more whatever" in digital audio. All you need is to have every send bit being received correctly, once you reached that goal there is nothing more to achieve even if you spend a fortune on your digital cables. Maybe if you spend $1000 on a ethernet cable your video and audio streams will improve. Ethernet cables are really cheap cables and most them manage to transmit 250Mbit signals (that's nearly 100 times faster than S/PDIF) on each twisted pair without any packet loss. |
There is no "warmer sound", "more depth" , "more whatever" in digital audio. All you need is to have every send bit being received correctly, once you reached that goal there is nothing more to achieve even if you spend a fortune on your digital cables. You tell em danip! Just one question: did you go to sleep in 1980 and only just now wake up? Because, hate to break it to you, but perfect sound forever? That was marketing. Its not really perfect. Sorry. |
Actually, as I’ve oft written on these fora, once the data leaves the player it’s too late. The damage has already been done. In fact, the damage to the data is done as soon as the laser beam strikes the metal layer. It’s all over in a billionth of a second. All the King’s horses and all the King’s men couldn’t put Humpty Dumpty together again. 🍳 |
RE: ... All you need is to have every send bit being received correctlyAnd there lies the problem !!! My understanding is... With SPDIF, Optical and USB there is no way to know IF the data stream RECEIVED is identical to the data stream SENT Ethernet is different - data is sent in "packets" together with a CHECKSUM - if the CHECKSUM calculated from the packet received is not the same the checksum sent with the packet - then the packet is resent until it matches. So - if there are errors in the SPDIF, Optical or USB data stream - the erroneous values are NEVER detected and hence, "interpolated" by the DAC to a best approximation of what was sent. So apply these "Approximations" to L and R channels and what will often result is a phase differences between the channels, which will alter the image, change dynamics and degrade the overall sound So getting a GOOD SPDIF, Optical or USB cable actually DOES improve sound quality. Regards - Steve |
Some companies actually do measure the cables and the info and graphs are on the websites.What I have found is it doesn't matter how the cables measure if the components(most of them) are unable to send and recover a perfect signal.Trial and error with different cables until you find the one by'happy accident' that seems to counteract the errors and allow your system to sing.The perfect cable could be one buried in your junk box,an expensive boutique,or anything in between. |
Williewonka, the first layers of ethernet don't have checksum and you still need a shitty cable to fail at the physical or data link layer. Statistics on my server (current uptime 27 days) : Iface MTU RX-OK RX-ERR RX-DRP RX-OVR TX-OK TX-ERR TX-DRP TX-OVR FlgIt's probably a bit messy to read here, but you can see there are no TX or RX errors at interface level (eth0 is the physical interface, ignore the 'lo' interface, that's the loopback aka 127.0.0.1). Anyway, no fails on +200 million packets (RX and TX combined) on a 1000baseT connected with a 5$ Cat5e cable (length 5m). PS : USB has a hardware checksum test, but USB audio/video devices use isochronous communication to avoid latency (thus no hardware checksum for that). |
@danip4 - I’m far from an expert on this topic, but this thread appears to show Checksum’s are employed in Ethernet... https://networkengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/37492/how-does-the-tcp-ip-stack-handle-udp-ch... What I can confirm is that using Ethernet, conveys a significantly better audio result than any of my asynchronous mode transfers i.e. USB, SPDIF or Optical. Each of those required the best cable possible to even approach the same levels of sound quality that Ethernet provides. So I think my point still stands - the quality of sound from a digital source that uses asynchronous transfer protocols can be impacted by the quality of the cable used Regards |
Williewonka, the TCP/IP stack is software not hardware. I used to be CCNA certified (never renewed because it costs money for nothing and I don't work in ICT anymore). I am not very good at this but I will try to explain the important things (related to this topic). Ethernet is made out of layers (check OSI model) and only the first layers are hardware layers. The first layer is the physical layer (interface port and the copper). The second is the data link (ethernet frames are created and use of a mac address, it's the last hardware layer) while this layer has CRC it will NEVER resend a package, lost is lost. The server interface stats I linked come from this layer. Typical layer 2 devices are ethernet switches. Starting at layer 3 it's all software. It's here that TCP/IP packages are created and eventually resend. If you would look at the TCP/IP statistics you will see that packages are dropped, blocked, ... etc. This doesn't mean there was a error in the hardware communication, if it reaches this layer "there were no errors on the cable" but packages were dropped/blocked for a different reason (unexpected or unwanted packages) I am not 100% sure about netstat in Windows but if I am not mistaken "netstat -e" shows the hardware stats and "netstat -s" the TCP/IP part. There you can see that the first one has no errors (unless you are on wifi, have a bad cable or interface) while the second one has errors, dropped packages ... etc (again those are non physical reasons). Yes I lied (partly) because I didn't want to explain the whole thing in depth. Layer 2 has a CRC but It never resends like what most ppl here would expect from a system using a checksum. But in 27 days, my server never had a bad ethernet frame (every '0' and '1' has arrived correctly to the next node, the switch, and not single CRC trip). PS : ethernet is asynchronous there is no clock signal between nodes. |
@danip5 - you are clearly far more knowledgeable in this area than myself, so if I could impose on you one last time, for some points of clarification...If I understand your posts correctly - "Ethernet" detects errors, but it does not request a re-transmit - it just identifies if the packet should be "dropped/blocked" Whereas TCP/IP "can" notice the data loss, but... - is retransmission something that is "programmed" using TCP/IP ? - or is retransmission automatically taken care of by TCP/IP ? The reason for this point of clarification is - if re-transmission has to be programmed - then it really depends on the TCP/IP implementation approach, from one Ethernet connected device to another, as to how good each would sound. - Whereas, if it is automatic, then all Ethernet connected devices should be able to perform to a "similar level". Also - Is my understanding of SPDIF, optical and USB methods of transmission correct... - i.e. if data is lost/corrupted, it goes undetected and a DAC will simply try to re-create the audio signal from the digital stream received as best it can ? It is also quite clear from your posts that Ethernet is far more reliable at successful data transmission than either SPDIF, optical and USB methods. Which would account for the superior sound I now enjoy from my Bluesound Node 2 - which uses an Ethernet connection Many Thanks for your patience - Steve |
Guys, I don't know all of the technical and configuration aspects but I have evaluated 7-8 digital coax utilizing both RCA and BNC; I was able to distinguish differences in all of them easily. It must be the 3:1 ratio of the helix coil/signal cable that's making a difference. There is No brightness, bloat but an enveloping sound that appears to have nothing obstructing the components ability to convey the data being transmitted. I will be removing from cooker tonight and placing on soundbar for a few days and see what a DIY Helix sounds like compared to a professionally built German Helix Cable. I can tell you that I'm quite impressed already with this DIY Helix 👍 Wig |
Williewonka, to keep it very simple. The network interface sends ethernet frames which are composed of a header, a payload and a CRC. At this stage it uses mac adresses to communicate. A TCP/IP packet is a software created packet which will be the payload of a ethernet frame. TCP/IP is a little more complicated to explain but it uses a 3 way handshake to start a connection. Sequence numbers are used in those packets so that the a missing packet can be detected (if sequence number unexpectedly increases) and a resend can be asked with it's sequence number. For example if a package with sequence number 65 is received while there was no 64, a resend of 64 will be asked (it will actually go back to 64 which means that 65 will also be resend ... etc) If you send a TCP/IP packet that packet will stay the same until it reaches it's goal (rare cases where it doesn't like a router using NAT), while every node will "repack" the TCP/IP packet into a new frame with the according mac addresses (a switch is not a node). When a TCP/IP packet is lost it almost certainly happened "far away" (for example due to lack of bandwidth) To get back on topic. I think the major problem with SPDIF is that each device generates it's own clock and older devices often generated a crappy clock. Today's devices generate more consistant and accurate clocks which means less jitter problems. |
My DIY advance Digital Helix cable has been settling into my system now for 2 days and they are Staying...Outstanding results on my 25 year old Dac as my reference Dac is currently being modified with new Caps, more filtering, better wiring and a DHT rectifier. I was considering Vh Audio Cu Coax but really have no desire as the Oyaide DB 510 is a similar typology and I’ve already tried and evaluated that cable which is good but no where near this Helix Cable. Here are a few Coax that I have owned and evaluated within the last 6 months; Oyaide DB 510, Empirical Audio Reference, Black Cat Silver Star Mk II, Digit 75 Mk II, Snake River Boomslang, Audio Revelation, Inakustik 2404 Air Helix and a few others that I can’t recall but none of these can approach the performance of the Helix. Here’s what the Helix does so well; No bright or warm sound signature, a larger soundstage with much more width and depth, life-like sound that appears to have no obstructions which allows the music to flow in a you-are-there fashion. Removing the Helix sounds as if I’m listening to a recording in mono verses having a real instrument occupying a space within your listening environment. I recommend you guys give these a try to see what you think but my eyes have been opened and a pair of DIY Helix interconnects are next on the horizon! Kudos to Steve for his research and implementation which makes it a breeze for DIYers : ) Wig |
Wig, many thanks for the Kudos - It's always nice to hear of someone else that is enjoying better sound due to the Helix geometry. I've had many conversations with people about the various digital sample rates when used with the Helix SPDIF - and I (and others) have found that 16/44 provides exceptional sound quality, to the point where it becomes difficult to tell the difference between 16/44 and 24/192 formats. Unfortunately 24/192 is as high as I am able to decode, so I have no idea what the maximum sample rate the Helix SPDIF is capable of conveying. I'm hoping someone on Agon that uses sample rates higher than 24/192 might give the Helix a try :-) Thanks for having the courage to take the plunge into the "Helix Pond" - I'm pretty sure you will also really enjoy the analogue Helix cables also . If anyone else would like to try building them, take a look at http://image99.net/blog/files/54c02c12532d31f960ee85a6ed674b01-83.html Click on the link for the interconnects on that page and then scroll down to (or search the page for) … "Can this cable be used for SPDIF purposes?"It details the wires and RCA's I have found to work extremely well for digital purposes Regards - Steve |
grannyring: " Copper tends to deliver more mid-bass body and weight and is not as well defined in terms of leading edge detail. Bass is a tad more rounded and yes this can vary, but in general is accurate." This is pure bs. About digital cables; buy a piece of Vivanco kx 710 or 910 and terminate it. Then put some duct-tape under your jaw cause it will drop. Thank me later |
@maxima95 - I have only tried this for SPDIF cables up to 2 meters long. Others have tried it for SPDIF up to 3 meters long. AES3 (also known as AES/EBU) is a standard for the exchange of digital audio signals between professional audio devices. I have only tried Helix cables up to and including 24/192 for SPDIF cables between a USB interface into a 24/192 DAC I do not know what sample rates Professional Audio Devices work at, but I would have to assume sample rates much higher. I would think that the Mundorf XLR style cable would be able to support much higher rates, but to date nobody has tried that design in the digital realm. Duelund is very good for analogue, but that has more to do with the cotton/oil insulation. Before spending lots on the Mundorf wire - I would try using the cryo-treated... - the 24 gauge silver plated Mil-spec wire/Teflon for the signal - and 20 gauge silver plated Mil-spec for the neutral Also, I would increase the ratio of neutral:signal to 4:1 or even 5:1 to increase Helix coverage for higher sample rates Other reasons for trying the lighter gauge mil-spec in place of 20 gauge Mundorf or Duelund - smaller gauge wires are less prone to RFI/EMI - I just tried a 28 gauge wire for a phono cable I am prototyping and the hum significantly reduced as the gauge got smaller - I compared it to using the 20 gauge Duelund, signal wire which hummed a lot. - also, early tests of the RCA plugs revealed that using the higher grade Pure Harmony and Absolute Harmony plugs (which have better IACS ratings, provided no additional benefits over the lower grade Silver harmony RCA, when used for SPDIF cables. I have not personally tries any XLR connectors either, so I cannot recommend a specific type or brand - based on my experience with other connectors I would have to assume silver plated copper pins would offer the best results Sorry I could not provide better info, but I stopped using/developing SPDIF three years ago when I replaced my USB-DAC setup with a all-in-one Ethernet streaming device. The photo’s of the XLR cables are analogue cables and courtessey of a fellow DIYer in Bulgaria that developed them and reported extremely good sound quality. I hope that helps - Steve |
I read of willie’s experience in builds and tests. I’ve done the same, of course, as we at Teo --build cables. Geometry becomes the 3d complex field, and the cable itself is dealing with the delineation of the transient edges (square wave edge delineation) as being the entire reason the cable exists. Transient impedance behavior becomes the whole darned thing. (same for any cable or conditioner or audio device, BTW) So ... proper geometry and proper implementation of said geometry becomes the overriding factor that determines the heard or realized sound quality of the given digital s/pdif cable. This can happen at high prices or at low ones. Cable materials count, geometry counts, RCA jacks count, termination in the device pair counts. And so on. We happen to think our RCA terminated S/pdif is the best of any available, mostly due to the liquid metal’s behavior under complex transient loading. It is fundamentally different than the transient LCR behavior of wire. So different it is...that, in our experience and that of our customer base...where.. under any possible combination of dac and transport(source), that ours will exceed the performance of any other cable. Science! (and fundamental physics, of course) |
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@maxima95 - unfortunately XLR implementations are not my specialty, since most of my components do not employ that socket type. Others have had great success using the Helix geometry with Analogue cables, but I do not know of anyone that has tried what you are considering. If I were in your position, I would try building a prototype cable first using inexpensive wire. For prototyping I used... - Thermostat wire (for the Helix neutral) from a local hardware store >>> Thermostat wire is 18 gauge solid core copper >>> it holds the helix shape very well - CAT6 for the signal wires - 24 or 28 gauge is ok The prototype wire for a 3 ft AES/EBU digital cable would probably cost less than $20 - since you already have some good plugs. If the cable sounds good then opt for the better grade wire. What I have observed with digital cables is that wire quality is not as important as it is with analogue cables, so I would use 20 gauge silver plated Mil-spec for the neutral and 24 gauge mil-spec for the signal. Hope that helps - steve |
" Copper tends to deliver more mid-bass body and weight and is not as well defined in terms of leading edge detail. Bass is a tad more rounded and yes this can vary, but in general is accurate."I’m not disagreeing with this statement - but I do have some thoughts... I have been dabbling with cables for the last 12 years. in that time I have read many postings on Agon pertaining to what people hear with their various cable selections and substitutions. Being a firm believer in trusting my ears I have to believe this statement is true - i.e. it is what those people observed. Cables are very complex beasts... - wire type - solid or stranded - metaurgy - copper or silver plate or silver - insulation type and thickness - cable geometry - how the wires are placed with respect to each other within the cable - burn-in - directionality - etc... But one thing I have noticed in the last 12 years... - cables effect the performance of the connected components. So it might not be the cable that is actually responsible for changing the sound/tone to "more mid bass body", it is just the component performing differently ... - due to the various attributes of the cable. - and the cable is simply conveying what the component is now delivering Regards - Steve |
"For digital, it is primarily about no bit errors (which are highly unlikely) and no added jitter" That is 100% correct. When digital transmission improves (usb, spdif, aes) the sound signature will not "color" like an analog silver cable can do. Instead you get more low level detail, focus, bandwidth and precision. Its just more correct timed information for your dac to work with. Silver behaves better at the high frequencies (mhz/ghz) bands because the enhanced conductivity and bandwidth of silver itself at high frequencies. The skin effect is where most of the digital transmission happens. A good implemented copper digital cable can outperform a bad implemented silver digital cable. The implementation (geometry, shielding, dielectric, impedance matched connectors) is key. If these are exactly the same: silver will perform better. If you have a high quality pure silver cable with impedance matched connectors it is about as good as it gets. For example Neotech nevd-2001, Oyaide FTVS-510. Just my 2 cents |
Just some anecdotal evidence doesn’t disprove general theory. I cannot find Audioquest Truth Digital interconnects in copper or silver version for digital (spdif/aes/usb). Is this an old cable? If it works for you. Well, go for it. Audioquest is very good but overpriced. And I know. I have seen their manufacturing and assembling of cables first hand. |
